The Time Has Come

[kin hell]

Well The time has come , after renting accommodation for some years now its time to buy some land and build a home , Having read as much on the subject I can find, as far as I can understand the Thai land title deed's are as follows ...

1. CHANNOTT TIDIN

This is a full title deed to the land fully surveyed and marked by unique markers and issued by the provincial land department.

2. NOR SOR SAM KOR

Thease have been surveyed by the district land department and correspond to an area shown on an aerial photograph, and are registerable as a right of ownership.

3. NOR SOR SAM

These are land title deeds issued by the district land office with clear records of ownership which can be sold or leased by posting 30 days notice to the public. These are less accurately surveyed than a chanott.

4.SOR BOR KOR

A true title deed accurately surveyed , however the land may not be sold or transferred unless bequeathed in a will.

5. TOR BOR TOR HOK / TOR BOR TOR HA

These are squatters claims to occupy land that has been settled upon , its not possible to legally build on the land or sell / lease it

Do any forum readers have any experience in buying land and could confirm my above list or comment on this subject also as for paying for the land ( my wife is Thai ) I have been told the best way to pay would be with a bankers draft...?, and what amount ( % ) of tax would have to be paid on land purchase, and by who ...? ( the buyer or seller ) any comments or advice would be welcome ...Thanks ..

[taxexile]

if you are buying land you should make sure that the deed is at least a nor sor sam gor. the chanot is the best though and guarantees the boundaries of your land.

if your land does not have direct access from a public road,(these are marked as such on the deed and on the larger maps held at the land office) then make sure you have access to your land over the land between yours and the road and that the owner of that piece of land signs to that effect and that the owner does in fact have valid title to that piece. check their id carefully when they present at the land office.

if its not already there, make sure that you know the cost of getting power to your property, the cost of getting a well dug and getting a phone line to your land.

a good lawyer might be useful but in this country it is hard to find a professional that can be trusted to do their job in a professional way.

use family knowledge and recommendations. it really is buyer beware, especially if you are buying virgin land in a popular area.

with a nor sor sam gor, the purchaser of adjacent land can if they so wish grab a few feet of your land by moving the cement posts a few feet and to regain those few feet means suing them in court.

if you have nor sor sam gor land and some adjacent land is being sold you will be given notice by the land department of the day of sale/measurement and you have the right to attend and make sure your interests are protected. it is advisable to do so.

after owning nor sor sam gor land for one year( i think....maybe its 6 months) you can apply to the land dept. to upgrade the title to a chanot. a date is set for measurement of the plot and adjacent owners are notified.

as far as tax on the land goes, usually the seller pays, but it is negotiable and unless you are buying hundreds of rais of prime land the tax is low.

if you are buying land in phuket,samui or probably any other areas where falangs buy a lot of land then its the falang who pays, but again its negotiable.

if you are buying land and its in your wifes name then it is a good idea to keep a low profile and let her do all the business.just make sure the readies are in the bank on the sale day !!

if you or your wife have any contacts at the land dept. then use them. it will speed up the process a lot. and will help you in checking out all the ownership details of the adjacent plots before the big day.

land dept. employees were involved in a big scandal a couple of years ago. many buyers found out years after having bought land that all they had bought were worthless false land title deeds. that was in phuket.

the tax is based on the value of the land declared on the transaction document filed at the land dept., not the actual value that is paid to the seller.

the deal is closed at the land dept. office when all parties are happy with the paperwork. a bank draft is the way to go.

buying land is not as daunting as it sounds, in fact it is a simple and efficient system but there are lots of precautions to take and documents and procedures must be checked very carefully in this country to avoid being either misinformed (a big problem in thailand), actually cheated(rare, but it does happen)or losing out as the result of a genuine oversight or mistake on the part of a lawyer or land office employee or land agent (not uncommon).

good luck.

[fatter than harry]

Yep, you got it right regarding titles and taxexile has given you extra good advice, are you putting the land in your wife's name or are you registering it to a company? Important point. Good luck

[Basher]

I bought a few plots of land and a house in Phuket, no hassle at all, I even got a mortgage too, it is all pretty simple just lots of photocopying and signing.

1 word of advise, keep copies of every piece of paperwork that is involed in your and your womans life in a file in the car, you will find that the bank, land office, lawyer or whoever is doing your paperwork will inevitably be missing 1 vital document and you are a hero when you pop up with' oh I have a copy of that one in my car' nip out and get it.

I got a lot of respect from the official in the land office when the bank was missing 1 bit of paper, I had a copy in the motor and the land office glowed with admiration as his whole mornings work would have been for nowt with it missing.

By the way my pal the Gentelman has been involved in realestate for many years in Phuket, email him and I am sure he will help.

[pnustedt]

I bought a few plots of land and a house in Phuket, no hassle at all, I even got a mortgage too, it is all pretty simple just lots of photocopying and signing.

Unless you're Thia you don't own any Thai land!

[Basher]

I bought a few plots of land and a house in Phuket, no hassle at all, I even got a mortgage too, it is all pretty simple just lots of photocopying and signing.

Unless you're Thia you don't own any Thai land!

Oh dear, I must have been dreaming....

[Basher]

I bought a few plots of land and a house in Phuket, no hassle at all, I even got a mortgage too, it is all pretty simple just lots of photocopying and signing.

Unless you're Thia you don't own any Thai land!

Who is Thia? is she nice?

She must be really rich if she owns all the land....

[pnustedt]

[Who is Thia? is she nice?

She must be really rich if she owns all the land.... 

Best you find out - she owns "your" land

[Basher]

[Who is Thia? is she nice?

She must be really rich if she owns all the land.... 

Best you find out - she owns "your" land

Unless she own the SCB she don't, all mine is in against the mortgage!!

But I would still like to meet her....

[phuketrichard]

wow, lots of things here,

first.

if your land does not have direct access from a public road,(these are marked as such on the deed and on the larger maps held at the land office) then make sure you have access to your land over the land between yours and the road and that the owner of that piece of land signs to that effect and that the owner does in fact have valid title to that piece. check their id carefully when they present at the land office.

Make sure that the road is placed on the BACK of the nor sor or chanote paper of the person that owns the land that the road is on and you get a copy!!!

after owning nor sor sam gor land for one year ( i think....maybe its 6 months) you can apply to the land dept. to upgrade the title to a chanot. a date is set for measurement of the plot and adjacent owners are notified.

Not true. They do upgrade papers but there is no set time. Here in Phuket they upgraded everyone in Patong from nor sor to full chanote but it took YEARS. My land has a nor sor sam gor and it might be upgraded to a full chanote in....years. As far as what ytou cna do with it the 2 are equal

you say, if you have nor sor sam gor land and some adjacent land is being sold you will be given notice by the land department of the day of sale/measurement and you have the right to attend and make sure your interests are protected. it is advisable to do so.

Also not true.

ONLY when the person that owns land next to you wnats to split the land will you be asked to verify where the borders between your 2 lands meet. I had to do this when I cut out 1/2 rai of my land. When I sold the 1/2 rai No one had to to consulted.

Nor sor sam gor and chanote main dif.

a chanote if someone lives on your land for 3 years and you DON"T kick them off they can lay claim to the land.

With nor sor sam gor its 1 year

NO farang can own any land in thailand UNLESS the invest $1,000,000 then the goverment will allow you to purchase enough land to build a house ( they don;t say how much land that is)

NOTE this $1,000,000 needs to be invested NOT used to purchase the land and build a house

This is the ONLY way a farang can own land

basher unless you invested $1,000,000 you do not own your land. Do you have your land paper? Whose name is in in? Thats the name one the paper on the left side. After you register your LEASE your name will go on the paper on the right side, ( I just registered my paper last week so I do know)

Make sure you get a really good lease and don;t foget to put 2 impirtnat clauses in it

one. That the ENGLISH version of the lease takes precidence over the thai

two, that the lease is binding to all heirs in case the person that gives you the lease dies.

This happened to a friend of mine. He had all his properties and house in his wifes name and she died in a car accident. The mother kicked him out the next day!! and its legal

many questions.

Are you married? if so your wife has to show that it is her money and where it came from for her to won it. You have to sign a paper stating that it is her money and you have no cliams to it ever!

If your not make sure she gives you at the least a 30+ 30 year lease with the above clauses.

My friend has been buying/seeling land here in Phuket since the early 80's!!

[the gentleman]

Phuket Richard, you are almost right in all you wrote.

Regarding road access', I would say I have had to much experience in this side of things - every other week, I have road issues, so I will give a little advice.

If you are trying to access your land and you have negotiated a right of access to your land, there are a few ways to do it.

Firstly, if the owner will register the road acces to you, make sure it is to the number of your land title you own and not to your name/company name as when you sell the land, the next owner wil have to pay again and re register it again - it causes major head aches for the buyer and seller.

Roads are great way of making money, not the usual business we farangs are used to but, one 10 meter road, can make you quite wealthy.

My company owns a plot of land in Patong and we also own the private road to the land. Now the area is built up, it is only our road that people can access their land by - so we sell road access', last year alone we sold over 3,000,000 bahts worth of road access' - never planned, just ended up that way

If you building a small housing development, you can aslo name the road yourself and then donate the road to the government - then they look after it.

Basher owns his land via his comapny, like 99% of all my clients do - to me this is still the best way to own land and its the way multi national companies do also.

Leases are good, but if you have a lease agreement, also state, that anytime the Thai law changes and aliens can own land in Thailand, the ownership is given to you and the lease is void. Also add another paragraph stating at anytime you want to sell the lease, the same amount of years that you obtained, starts again with the new owner (as a lease is really a way of not paying company over heads).

[phuketrichard]

Thnaks for that. I have road access and the ladn title is on his paper. Juts forgot to add that.

What I also have on my lease is that when my daughter ( who holds Thai and american nationality) reaches the age of consent ( 18) the title will be passed over to her at not additional charge. I have my land in a friends name ( not someone I slept with). This makes all the dif in the world to me.:-)

As far as when I sell the land why would a new farang want my old lease? Wouldn't he want a new one in someones name he trusts or his company?

as far as Basher... he doesn't own his land... his comapny does...

additional point, make sure you have legal rights to water and rights to run electric wires to your land if it crosses someone else's land rather than right thru the street. Anothjer way Thai's make an additional baht or 2 !

[the gentleman]

you wrote: As far as when I sell the land why would a new farang want my old lease? Wouldn't he want a new one in someones name he trusts or his company?

edited: Also add another paragraph stating at anytime you want to sell the lease hold / ownership paper shuffle, the same amount of years that you obtained, starts again with the new owner (as a lease is really a way of not paying company over heads).

The point I was making is that when you get a 90/30 year lease and you want to sell the lease/condo/property, make sure in the first instance you have this paragraph in the contract as I have had a few clients take over a lease and it wasnt topped up to the level the previous owner.

you wrote: as far as Basher... he doesn't own his land... his comapny does...

well how ever you want to word it, is ok by me, but this is also classed as a form of ownership - he is the sole power of that company as I am with mine.

I think the Sheraton group and others, would not have set companies up, if they thought they had no power on who contols it - The owner of the land equates to who has power over it and who makes the decisions regarding it - be it the company or the director of it. So in actual fact, he does own it, just another way of doing it.

P.S An english contract is not binding in Thailand, it has to be in Thai - a signed THAI agreement is the only agreement.

[phuketrichard]

Question,

I have a signed english/thai version of my registered lease. In thai and english I have that the final say goes to the english version. Are you saying that will not hold?

reason is how do I know 100% the thai is what I wnated regardless of how much I trust my lawyer. I can't read that much thai.

[the gentleman]

Question,

I have a signed english/thai version of my registered lease. In thai and english I have that the final say goes to the english version. Are you saying that will not hold?

reason is how do I know 100% the thai is what I wnated regardless of how much I trust my lawyer. I can't read that much thai.

I would be guessing no, but if your lawyer has some how got around that, it may be correct? - not sure! But a signed English translation will not stand up in court of law as they say - this is Thailand and the law is in Thai.

You can get "an authorised translation", with a (not sure of the wording) government style stamp, that says that it is an exact translation - there should be someone on this forum, who can explain it better than me.

There is one translation service in Chalong, where they have this style stamp.

Maybe Sunbelt has a better grasp of it all??

[MAL2004]

Question,

I have a signed english/thai version of my registered lease. In thai and english I have that the final say goes to the english version. Are you saying that will not hold?

reason is how do I know 100% the thai is what I wnated regardless of how much I trust my lawyer. I can't read that much thai.

Might be a good idea to learn to read at least some, before you put your signature to it!

[Basher]

you wrote: as far as Basher... he doesn't own his land... his comapny does...

well how ever you want to word it, is ok by me, but this is also classed as a form of ownership - he is the sole power of that company as I am with mine.

I think the Sheraton group and others, would not have set companies up, if they thought they had no power on who contols it - The owner of the land equates to who has power over it and who makes the decisions regarding it - be it the company or the director of it. So in actual fact, he does own it, just another way of doing it.

P.S An english contract is not binding in Thailand, it has to be in Thai - a signed THAI agreement is the only agreement.

Thanks mate, I couldn't be arsed with the pedantic semantics of it all, you have saved me the typing

Bash

[phuketrichard]

just curious how many farangs can read thai well enough to read a legal contract and understand it?

I trust my lawyer but want to make sure that the english version holds say over the thai just in case.

Basher. semantics are what rule the world.

Thai law says no farang can own land. By saying you do you are not really telling the truth.

Ok, YOUR company owns the land but your name is not on the Chanote.

Agreed?

and as far as the company goes, as I understand it there are 7 shareholders and unless your holding an American company 51% have to be Thai.

[phuketrichard]

gentelman;

I used Patong Language school which is accredited to give "authorised translations". BUT still in THAI I have that the english version shall prevail over the thai version and was assured that this will hold in court. Not only by my lawyer but by the head guy at the Kathu land office who happens to be the uncle of the holder of my land paper.(he read it 2 weeks ago so this was not one of the guys that was investigated) It helps to have people know you. :-)

Sometimes words in thai do not translate exactly 100%.

Thanks

[taxexile]

i can read thai and when we bought our land i translated our land title deed with the help of a thai dictionary. (it was a labour of love and took me 2 hours.)as you said, thai words dont always transliterate exactly into english (which i'm sure is the cause of many misunderstandings here, not only in land purchase) and although the title deed is by no means a complicated document, my translation of it could be open to many interpretations.

our buying contract was in my wifes name, and i left it to her judgement as to whether it was ok or not. she had it altered twice before agreeing to it.

there was an english translation but it was in very simple english, and not at all "legalese". probably would be torn to pieces if it ever had to be used to support a claim in court.

[phuketrichard]

Title deed in 2 hours, good for you. You say you can read thai. Very good as I still have a hard time figuring out where one word ends and the next one starts :-)

BUT to translate my 3 page lease took a thai that is fleunt in thai and english over a day

What about your lease agreement between you and your wife? I assume and hope you have one. in English and Thai

Translations using a dictonary are very fundemental at the best.

[Basher]

Basher. semantics are what rule the world.

Thai law says no farang can own land. By saying you do you are not really telling the truth.

Ok, YOUR company owns the land but your name is not on the Chanote.

Agreed?

and as far as the company goes, as I understand it there are 7 shareholders and unless your holding an American company 51% have to be Thai.

Dear Pedant

re-read my original post and show me where I wrote 'own' you are debating with your self mate. if there were more of you you it would be a mass debate, which I have a feeling you would be bast at...

Also re-read the Gents careful explanation for those who are hard of understanding, you will find most of your answers there.

I have found in life there are people who 'do' things, and I have found people who 'don't' do things but they still talk as if they 'do'

[phuketrichard]

You wrote and I quote,

"I bought a few plots of land and a house in Phuket, no hassle at all, I even got a mortgage too, it is all pretty simple just lots of photocopying and signing."

I guess I assumed like everyone else that you meant you owned as not many people buiy without owning.

If I was wrong, whatever, but you know what you meant and so do we. You are obvisiously one of the new farnags that come here and buy, buy buy without any knowledege of the sytem or country.

and trust whatever a white farang( who can not be a lawyer unless he can pass the thai bar in Thai) tells you. Good luck to you.

One of my friends has been buying and selling land here for over 18 years and I trust is judgmetn and what I know from my 18 years here.

I do things and if you want to see my nor sor sam gor paper with MY name on the back your welcome to. Is your name on the back of your land title?

[taxexile]

BUT to translate my 3 page lease took a thai that is fleunt in thai and english over a day

What about your lease agreement between you and your wife? I assume and hope you have one. in English and Thai

the title deed is a simple document using straightforward language , a lease is a different matter altogether and naturally would be a time consuming procedure to make it understandable and precise in english. the lease agreements in english that i have seen have all been written in a very simple form of english, and seem to have been translated by people who have no legal background at all and could be open to all kinds of meaning if produced to back up a clain in court.

call me crazy if you want to but i dont have a lease agreement with my wife, she wants do do one but we havent got round to it yet. a dislike of lawyers methodology and paperwork being the reason.

but when we do get one i will translate it myself or if that proves too difficult ask my wife to do it seeing as she is the only person i trust 100% to look after my interests here.

[Basher]

You wrote and I quote,

"I bought a few plots of land and a house in Phuket, no hassle at all, I even got a mortgage too, it is all pretty simple just lots of photocopying and signing."

I guess I assumed like everyone else that you meant you owned as not many people buiy without owning.

If I was wrong, whatever, but you know what you meant and so do we. You are obvisiously one of the new farnags that come here and buy, buy buy without any knowledege of the sytem or country.

and trust whatever a white farang( who can not be a lawyer unless he can pass the thai bar in Thai) tells you. Good luck to you.

One of my friends has been buying and selling land here for over 18 years and I trust is judgmetn and what I know from my 18 years here.

I do things and if you want to see my nor sor sam gor paper with MY name on the back your welcome to. Is your name on the back of your land title?

I only trust what I read written by strangers here, and things I am told in the bar....

Having only been here for my 2 week holiday I feel quite an expert....

My Thai wife of 3 weeks is an expert in buying gold and playing cards....

Her mother has 2 buffalo already and both are very well....

I am happy for you and your friend of 18 years standing, it's wonderful to know you can rely on somethings....

I think I will go and wash my truck and have a beer, got to pay the mortgage tomorrow...

By the way you started all this palarver....

And all mine are chanotes......

[Basher]

Amazing how many drunk Omnipotent farrangs there are on here

Bash

[sbk]

with a nor sor sam gor, the purchaser of adjacent land can if they so wish grab a few feet of your land by moving the cement posts a few feet and to regain those few feet means suing them in court.

Just to add a lighter note to what has obviously become a testy thread...

This one is certainly true, my husband's grandfather caught the old man next door trying to move the land posts, and, at 89 years old, beat the heck out of him! The neighbor went to the police who came and got grandpa and said, "aren't you a little old for this kind of thing?" to which he replied, "if he tries to move the land markers again, I will do it again!" The police let him go, the neighbor never tried it again and nobody went to court to change the posts back, grandpa just went and moved them back to the original position. Rural justice

[aaaaaa]

nice story about grandpa - I like it! as well as simple concept of "rural justice" !

[astral]

Talk to your lawyer and start a company to own the land.

It will cost you 30,000 baht but assures peace of mind.

As the Managing Director you have sole signing power over the

company and the land it owns.

Consider what happens if you wife dies?

Who will own the land then, will they kick you out

of your own home?

You can always make a will and leave her the ownership of

the company when you die.

Remember the Golden Rule.

Never invest more in Thailand, than you are prepared to walk away from!!

[Basher]

Remember the Golden Rule.

Never invest more in Thailand, than you are prepared to walk away from!!

Great Advice!