Thai generals push for 'golden era' when elite held sway

[elgordo38]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

Ah yes again we are being reminded who the shepherds are and who the sheep are. We all know what happens to sheep over time. Well back to looking for the Golden Fleece.

[JAG]

Perhaps it will be for the better, Thailand over the past several years has proven time and time again they have no clue what democracy is. Elected officials have run amuk with power and greed and only doing what is good for themselves, their families and friends.

Just maybe Thailand is not meant to be a true democratic country, after all the are laws, rules and regulation but there are at least double perhaps even triple standards as to how the are used and implemented and enforced.

The whole point of democracy is that if the government which has been elected "runs amok" then the people can exercise the righr to dismiss it through the ballot box.

The whole point with the military getting involved, three times this century (?) Is that rhat right has been snatched away from the people. Twice when an election was due. You have to wonder why.

[JOC]

Perhaps it will be for the better, Thailand over the past several years has proven time and time again they have no clue what democracy is. Elected officials have run amuk with power and greed and only doing what is good for themselves, their families and friends.

Just maybe Thailand is not meant to be a true democratic country, after all the are laws, rules and regulation but there are at least double perhaps even triple standards as to how the are used and implemented and enforced.

>>Just maybe Thailand is not meant to be a true democratic country,<<

Why? Because the Thais are too stupid?

No!! But because they for decades have been ruled by an elite, using LM, Buddha and/or coups to keep them in "their" place!!

As for the lack of law enforcement, it has been allowed because it is the the interest of the powerful and wealthy!!

High time for the Thais to stop being "kreng-jai".

[elgordo38]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

No, Yingluck was elected and according to VOA the elections were clean. If you have link that proves otherwise, then please do share. If the article is to believed, then the elite will be taking their turn at the trough and Thailand will not progress. Time will tell.

Yes. She was elected. And unfortunately proceeded to hand control over to her non elected criminal fugitive brother and his mates. What a disappointment with all the lying, ignoring doing her job and jolly traveling she turned out to be.

Agree, if there is any truth to this article, Thailand will not progress economically, socially or politically whilst being milked by the elite.

Yes indeedee. There will be a flourish of new Bentley and Jaguar dealerships opening here shortly. Hmm maybe oxcarts will make a comeback as well. Transportation for the masses. Wonder where I can get an oxcart dealership should make a mint.

[mrmicbkktxl]

151 users, including 17 members are reading this thread.

Yet, not a single answer to my question: Give me 1 example in world history of the army cleaning up the mess made by politicians.

I think we all know that military administrations are totally incapable of improving conditions.........whether it the mess that politicians leave after their demise, or the continues ongoing problems as Thailand generally experiences.

Unfortunately, also as we all know, military strongmen/dinosaurs don't think that way.........

Ruling governments must be strong enough to limit the roles of the military to avoid takeovers............

IT's not only the military what rules the country,royalists and bkk elite are highly involved,all 3 have no interest in giving power away to an free elected government.

Why do you think they change the constitution,why there is a LM law why you never see any hiso getting punished

[The Deerhunter]

Golden eras where the elites hold sway always seem to end in tears - elite tears.

The difference is this century that the Thai people have experienced the chance to choose their government on what, 4 occasions so far. They have seen their choice dismissed by the elite 3 out of those 4 times. As several here have already said,they now have access to an unrestricted means of communication and ideas in the internet. Sure the Junta could remove their access to the internet, but does anyone believe that such a move would be anything than the spark which would light a fuze?

The days of golden eras where elite hold sway have gone, and they if they come back it will only be temporary.

Their choices were dismissed 3 out of 4 times because each time their choices had broken the laws of Thailand.

Do you think it is OK to be elected and then break any laws you wish with impunity and ignore any court judgements that go against you yet accept the ones in your favour.

Thaksin was NOT ousted by the coup as there was only a caretaker government and he has illegally assumed the power of the caretaker PM.

Samak broke the law by having a second job which the PM is not allowed to do and then compounded that by lying to the courts. Yes he was removed by the courts BUT he could have been reinstated quite legally by the PPP. He wasn't because Thaksin did not trust him as he wasn't "family". That is why Somchai became PM.

He was removed by the courts and the PPP was dissolved because of electoral fraud.

So the elite did not remove them at all. The sheer arrogance of the TRT, PPP and latterly the PTP are the problem and all can be traced back to Thaksin.

And the sad reality is that the people quite reasonably hoped that Thaksin was going to be their Lee Kwan Yew but he turned out to be just another robber baron from "the alternative northern elite." So, where does that leave Thailand now. We are still in for a bumpy ride. It is never pretty to be a close range observer of a country's attempt to find "Democracy" whatever that is. Is there anyone here who thinks America has found the magic "Democracy" formula? Anyone who does should sit down & view Oliver Stones 10 episodes of the Secret History of the USA.

Myself, trying to be an optimist, I will wait til we do see the final draft of this particular constitutional re-write, not just believe this article is full and final truth. I am glad to see important detractors criticizing trends visible in the current drafts. That is encouraging. There is still time for the general to have his vision "on the road to Tarsus." Note I say this as a non-religious person, purely as the biblical fable is appropriate will be understood by many TVF readers. Let us hope for the best for poor Thailand. She is clearly not "out of the woods yet." The same big bad wolves in Bangkok and Chiangmai are still trying to gobble her up. And it is still, not again!! Please do not champion either of these two currently opposing factions. Neither have altruistic goals for Thailand. Her secure future lies with neither of them. Where is her real Lee Kwan Yew?

[Fat Haggis]

Si Theo,

I messed up the quotes but thanks

Thank you for the breakdown, it's very much appreciated, for some reason I had 65,000,000 in my head, a bit like getting 7% stuck in it, but yes, I do see the relevance when it comes down to reporting the correct figures when it comes down to the electorate.

it's interesting from nay different POV's, I would presume that all these current Polls are taken from the Thai equivalent of the electoral roll? Which would make me think that when they state silly things like 93.2% of the population are happy with the Junta, when you consider there's 18,000,000 just under 30% of the population under voting age

Don't know about you sir, but I've always noticed that Children under 18 tend to me more interested in sports, TV, and playstations rather than politics

I shall en devour to keep the numbers factual ..

Thanks again

[greenchair]

When the constitution is signed.

The real changes will begin.

Mark my words.

[elgordo38]

'golden era' when elite held sway it must have been a wonderful time for the landed rich and a terrible time for the poor basically in servitude no better than slaves but then again the medieval times are over now and the knight on his trusty charger are not now required and the people can stand up and be counted now it’s the 21^st century now not 15^th century.

Sorry but nothing has changed we the poor and that means 99.9% of the worlds population are still slaves in one way or another. The chains and means of bondage have become more sophisticated. Stand up and be counted? It is being done as we speak in Frankfurt Germany, Greece, Spain the people are all tired of being held hostage by blood sucking bond holders who want the last buck euro or whatever they can get and they are a merciless bunch bound by profiteering and personal greed. They want you to sacrifice endlessly so that they get their financial pound of flesh. Each time they protest the police thugs come in and beat them into the ground and drag them away. Yes chains and bondage can take many forms bad laws which there are many off rewritten constitutions, or outright brutality take your pick.

[MW72]

This 500b pay to vote really makes me laugh. In the UK, Labour literally pays over 1 MILLION baht to individuals to secure their vote!!

Agreed. The complaints about the buying of votes in this country are so hypocritical. Most political parties worldwide "buy" votes. Not necessarily by offering hard cash but all of those election promises are the sweetners to secure votes. Unemployed and want more benefits? We'll increase unemployment benefit. Run a small business? We'll cut red tape and give you a tax cut. You get the idea.

Sadly most western democracies are corrupted by big business and the voters are apethetic. People vote on personalities and the type of sweetners on offer and don't really think of, or are ignorant of the big picture.

If a political party were honest enough to say that the country was in debt and they proposed raising income tax and corporate tax to pay the debt, do you think they would get voted in?

[jpeg]

When the constitution is signed.

The real changes will begin.

Mark my words.

Until the changes are changed again.

Mark my words.

[gemguy]

No comment.....as a comment is not allowed.......being the end result of what will evolve.

Cheers

[jaywalker]

Mass political unrest will come to the fore again if these things start happening. Thai people aren't sheltered from the world anymore thanks to things like the Internet. The elites are a bunch of dinosaurs thinking they can still brainwash the masses. This will all lead to big trouble.

Too bad the vast majority can't read English, think the internet was made for nothing more than posting selfies & underboob shots & don't know Google Chrome from a chrome car bumper.

.... & that's just the USA. It's even worse in Thailand.

[nidieunimaitre]

Why has military rule never worked, in no country?

One reason - obviously - is that usually the military is not concerned about the well being of the country, they only want to protect certain groups, and that can not last forever.

But there are military regimes that honestly mean well, they believe they are saving their country, for the benefit of all.

And yet they too mess up. Why?

Army commanders have a special way of thinking: "when an order is given, it will be executed", and if not, the people responsible for the non complying will be dealt with. Result: at the worst, a short delay (and some dead bodies).

But that is not how human society works.

f ex try to tell lottery sellers to.... euh.... and so on

Or tell business people and workers to put the interests of the country first.

Or even: Return to traditional values! That's an order!

OK, I admit that my examples are a little bit far fetched, I am exaggerating to make my point.

In Greece, Patakos was a fine example of this. He actually went to Athens university to confront the rebellious students, convinced as he was, that he could explain.... And then there was The Genius of The Karpat Mountains, who was laughed away while delivering a speech, holding his scepter, the look on his face was priceless.... Or The Shah, in his interview with Frost, with the same "how-can-they-do-this-to-me" face. The last 2 were not generals, but same style of thinking.

I hate politicians. All of them, the lot. But the military is not an improvement.

If we start thinking from there, maybe we will get somewhere.

In a few hundred years perhaps?

[nidieunimaitre]

Mass political unrest will come to the fore again if these things start happening. Thai people aren't sheltered from the world anymore thanks to things like the Internet. The elites are a bunch of dinosaurs thinking they can still brainwash the masses. This will all lead to big trouble.

Too bad the vast majority can't read English, think the internet was made for nothing more than posting selfies & underboob shots & don't know Google Chrome from a chrome car bumper.

.... & that's just the USA. It's even worse in Thailand.

From your post I gather that you are feeling a wee bit depressed.....

Welcome to the club!

But on a more optimistic note: Let's try to keep the fire burning, even if it is only a very small fire, and in a few decades people will be grateful for that. Or millennia.

[nidieunimaitre]

I am not sure - is this on or off topic?

A good intermezzo in any case.

IMAGINE (with lyrics)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwUGSYDKUxU

[tbthailand]

think I will wait until the constitution is actually released before commenting on this, too many people actually put their feet in their mouth and the AFP has shown it always will push the ptp side of politics. What the AFP says and what actually happens have shown to be totally different but if the constitution isnt what is expected by most thais I will also join the outcry against it

the AFP are just a pack of paid-off liars...

[emilymat]

Why has military rule never worked, in no country?

One reason - obviously - is that usually the military is not concerned about the well being of the country, they only want to protect certain groups, and that can not last forever.

But there are military regimes that honestly mean well, they believe they are saving their country, for the benefit of all.

And yet they too mess up. Why?

Army commanders have a special way of thinking: "when an order is given, it will be executed", and if not, the people responsible for the non complying will be dealt with. Result: at the worst, a short delay (and some dead bodies).

But that is not how human society works.

f ex try to tell lottery sellers to.... euh.... and so on

Or tell business people and workers to put the interests of the country first.

Or even: Return to traditional values! That's an order!

OK, I admit that my examples are a little bit far fetched, I am exaggerating to make my point.

In Greece, Patakos was a fine example of this. He actually went to Athens university to confront the rebellious students, convinced as he was, that he could explain.... And then there was The Genius of The Karpat Mountains, who was laughed away while delivering a speech, holding his scepter, the look on his face was priceless.... Or The Shah, in his interview with Frost, with the same "how-can-they-do-this-to-me" face. The last 2 were not generals, but same style of thinking.

I hate politicians. All of them, the lot. But the military is not an improvement.

If we start thinking from there, maybe we will get somewhere.

In a few hundred years perhaps?

Interesting post on the military mind.

I was in the UK army for nine years in my twenties. I remember we always used to have discussions about 'civilians' who seemed always to be moaning about the cost of living, housing problems, etc etc.

It was only when I came out, into the real world, that I realised I had been cocooned in an environment where I did not have to worry where the next meal was coming from or how I maintained a roof over my head etc etc.

[phantomfiddler]

There is a question that I've wanted to ask for a long time.....

Yes, we all agree that politicians tend to mess up things.

Yes, it is often said "that the army had to step in to clean up the mess that politicians made".

Yes, that sounds rather reasonable.

But here is my question:

Do you know of 1 example, anywhere in the world, in any time of history, where the army actually cleaned up the mess?

Surely not Galtieri, Jaruzelski, Patakos, Franco, Salazar, Benito, Othello de Carvalho, Pinochet, Yazov, Mobutu, - I hope I have covered all tendancies.

As a matter of fact, I remember that after the "clean up", the politicians had to come back to clean upthe even bigger mess.

So, any enlightening examples?

Er, how about "Prayut" ?

[geriatrickid]

think I will wait until the constitution is actually released before commenting on this, too many people actually put their feet in their mouth and the AFP has shown it always will push the ptp side of politics. What the AFP says and what actually happens have shown to be totally different but if the constitution isnt what is expected by most thais I will also join the outcry against it

Hopefully you can weave those straws you are clutching at, into a raft that will float on the sea of tears that this dictatorial activity will bring. Watch closely as we are watching the rebirth of catastrophic civil unrest.

[kinmaew]

Yep will be bringing my million quid and definitely investing in a country like this!! Noi get ready darling new car and house coming from stupid farang!!

Sounds appealing, I love living under repression.

[cumgranosalum]

A new Thai constitution being drafted by the ruling junta is a throwback to an era when a royalist and military elite had a stranglehold on politics, analysts and politicians say, warning of dire consequences for democracy.

To all the junta lovers/ anti election posters here, please read the above twice and reconsider your support to the Thai elite!!

Your are supporting people and a system belonging in a long gone century!!

And cut your "but Yingluck" BS.

but Yingluck.......................

What democracy are you referring to JOC?

Democracy never existed in Thailand and I very much doubt that it will ever exist.

At least an effort is being made now to bring Thailand to a more civilized world with less corruption and better police force.

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

profoundly ill-informed comment

[HannahD]

Political parties in Thailand can be bought? No different from the good ol' US of A where the political parties can be and presently are bought by a fiction called the 'campaign contribution.' Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can clearly see that all major political decisions in the US are dictated by the 0.01%.

Even some college professors can see it.

[Shaunduhpostman]

People often seem top forget that Thaksin and company are an elite as well. Yes the Shinwatras are an elite, period.

So which brand of menthol do you smoke Amnat or Shin? Seem many would rather fight than switch, but at the end of the day what is the blinkin difference?

[PaPiPuPePo]

Ideals are for the masses, reality and common sense applies more to the right thinking person.

Do you seriously believe this, or are you just trying to be provocative? Since you feel entitled to pass judgement on what is or isn't "right thinking," pray share some of your criteria (beyond the obvious, like "it's right thinking to oppose slavery," though perhaps I shouldn't make assumptions).

[Si Thea01]

Si Theo,

I messed up the quotes but thanks

Thank you for the breakdown, it's very much appreciated, for some reason I had 65,000,000 in my head, a bit like getting 7% stuck in it, but yes, I do see the relevance when it comes down to reporting the correct figures when it comes down to the electorate.

it's interesting from nay different POV's, I would presume that all these current Polls are taken from the Thai equivalent of the electoral roll? Which would make me think that when they state silly things like 93.2% of the population are happy with the Junta, when you consider there's 18,000,000 just under 30% of the population under voting age

Don't know about you sir, but I've always noticed that Children under 18 tend to me more interested in sports, TV, and playstations rather than politics

I shall en devour to keep the numbers factual ..

Thanks again

No big deal, we are all susceptible to making little errors that are harmless. I have no idea what the guidelines are when they take polls in Thailand but in Australia that look at a number of matters, age, workers, non-workers, previous voting habits, different suburbs, nationalities, etc. There they undertake phone polls, and there is not one pollster, but about 5, with 2 being more accurate then most. Now, polls can be subject manipulation, brought about by those interviewed, the style and phrasing of the questions and often result in what they call Rogue Polls, which normally provide an opposite result to what is actually being felt in the community.

One really has to look at the questions and how they are framed to see if they are trying to obtain a desired result or are trying to establish what the true feeling is amongst the citizens. Also, as we don't know who is being polled, which is the same in Oz, it is difficult to find something that one could use to discredit the results. For example, they could interview educated people in major cities throughout the country and get one result, but then interview the poorer citizens and farmers in regional centres and get an entirely different result. We do not even know if they have interviewed a mixture in their attempts to reach a fair result. So unless you know exactly who is involved and what the other mitigating circumstances are, then it would be difficult to say if the result reached is either true or false. In the end we can only assume as we really don't know.

The young ones really aren't interested in Politics, although there may be a few that are a an exception to the rule but if they did take more notice then they would realise how much spin they go one with, the lies they tell and how they are just in it for themselves. It's happening world wide and has been occurring for over 40 years now. Trough feeders most of them. So maybe the kids are the smart ones, as they stay away from discussing Politics or religion and learn as they grow older and wiser. We can only hope.

[bkkcanuck8]

People often seem top forget that Thaksin and company are an elite as well. Yes the Shinwatras are an elite, period.

So which brand of menthol do you smoke Amnat or Shin? Seem many would rather fight than switch, but at the end of the day what is the blinkin difference?

It is the fight between old money and new money..... the aristocracy vs new money is often denoted by the new moneyed people not knowing how they should act within society (according the old money).

[nidieunimaitre]

There is a question that I've wanted to ask for a long time.....

Yes, we all agree that politicians tend to mess up things.

Yes, it is often said "that the army had to step in to clean up the mess that politicians made".

Yes, that sounds rather reasonable.

But here is my question:

Do you know of 1 example, anywhere in the world, in any time of history, where the army actually cleaned up the mess?

Surely not Galtieri, Jaruzelski, Patakos, Franco, Salazar, Benito, Othello de Carvalho, Pinochet, Yazov, Mobutu, - I hope I have covered all tendancies.

As a matter of fact, I remember that after the "clean up", the politicians had to come back to clean upthe even bigger mess.

So, any enlightening examples?

Er, how about "Prayut" ?

Gentlemen, place your bets.

Will Prayut nicely fit into the list above, or will he go into the history books as The One That Changed Human History?

I know where I will put my money.

[khaowong1]

think I will wait until the constitution is actually released before commenting on this, too many people actually put their feet in their mouth and the AFP has shown it always will push the ptp side of politics. What the AFP says and what actually happens have shown to be totally different but if the constitution isnt what is expected by most thais I will also join the outcry against it

We can outcry all we want, but as long as we have no voting power, nothing we can do.

[kennw]

Why dont many of you take off your politically colored glasses and try to see the intent of the (draft) costitution. For years many of the MP dinosaures on both sides were there just to enrich themselves. Taksin took it to a record height. You cannot clean up the amount of filth that has developed without draconian measures. Do you think the farmers can do this?. They are the victims! They have been exploited. Stop using the term "elite", start allowing the educated people to use their capabilities to develop a cleaner and more accountable system of government. Read the intent of the proposed constitution, it curbs the power of politicians because of their terrible past record. It further empowers those fortunate enough to have a better education and understanding of right and wrong to guide future policy makers. Look at how Singapore developed so dramatically over a 30 year period, a strong and honest leader. The current PM is a similar person.