UK expats liable for cost of NHS treatment

[kingalfred]

Nong, I think we are very similar politics wise. I know this is off topic, but I had my first vote when I was 18ish and voted against the EEC as even then I did not trust the politicians of the day to limit it to just a trade agreement. I was swayed by the arguments of 2 politicians, who I did not necessarily agree with politically, but I thought they had characteristics I admired namely integrity and honesty. The two politicians were at different ends of the poliitical spectrum - Anthony Wedgwood Benn and Enoch Powell. Their arguments were very persuasive about the EEC and they were proven to be right.

Powell and Benn and a few others warned that the "common market" would morph into a massive central controlling bureaucratic entity, continually extending its tentacles,and how so they have been proven. The UK politicians in the last 30 years have been supine, with the so called "endorsement" of elections. Need some real tough independent minded anti EU Mps on May 8th. Any but labour SNP or Libs. Edited May 3, 2015 by kingalfred

[ExPratt]

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"Does that mean if you are an EU national in the UK and receive NHS treatment and do not pay you would be denied exit at the airport?."

That is the galling thing, if you are an EU national you don't have to pay for any NHS treatment at all. So if you go to live in Spain make sure you get a Spanish EHIC card that way when you visit the UK you can legitimately claim FREE medical treatment. It's completely daft!

It is overseas visitors (now including ex-pats) who are being singled out for these charges even though we have paid NI contributions and 'still' pay other taxes as well. It is complete hypocrisy when you consider so-called 'non doms' are allowed to live in the UK free of all income taxes and receive NHS cover free of charge too.

"Does that mean if you are an EU national in the UK and receive NHS treatment and do not pay you would be denied exit at the airport?." Not unless you have a criminal charge against you , which case they can request you handover your passport. Otherwise if you just owe money to the NHS its like owing to The tax people or the Bank , they cannot stop you from leaving

[i claudius]

I have an NHS card/number, issued last year, and a UK passport and driving licence. I live here - for now.

I doubt that if I end up in hospital in the UK they are going to charge me. My reason for saying this is that it is up to individual NHS Trusts to decide on who, or who does not, qualify for treatment. They usually have a manager of some sort to decide this. It would take a Gestapo like interrogation for them to establish I had no right to treatment. Like most, paid NI for 48 years.

The UK Border Agency are now introducing scans of passports on departure as well as arrival so that your absence from the UK can be established and the data collected will be made available to NHS Trusts around the UK. In theory therefore, they won't need to interrogate you at all just present you with a bill at the end of your treatments and record it as unpaid on the same computer system so if you try to leave without paying they could stop you at the airport.

As for NI contributions, the link between them and NHS entitlement has been thrown away and so too are the old principles on which it was based as expounded in this video of Tony Benn on the subject

So of the millions of people that come and go through the airports etc all that information is going to be passed to the NHS computers and logged,so that they can catch pensioners etc who are now living abroad and stop them using it,

Well best of luck with that

[trevoromgh]

"So of the millions of people that come and go through the airports etc all that information is going to be passed to the NHS computers and logged,so that they can catch pensioners etc who are now living abroad and stop them using it"

Of course not, the UKBA will collect the data for British citizens departure/arrivals on their database and the NHS will simply perform an enquiry against that database for people they wish to check out so no need to hold the data in two places. It might mean security checks at the airports take longer of course. Hohum

[i claudius]

"So of the millions of people that come and go through the airports etc all that information is going to be passed to the NHS computers and logged,so that they can catch pensioners etc who are now living abroad and stop them using it"

Of course not, the UKBA will collect the data for British citizens departure/arrivals on their database and the NHS will simply perform an enquiry against that database for people they wish to check out so no need to hold the data in two places. It might mean security checks at the airports take longer of course. Hohum

They cant even stop bloody terrorists ,so best of luck with Percy the pensioner.

[Ricardo]

Pity that the photo illustrating the OP, of 'Dave' showing two-fingers, has now disappeared.

I thought it summed-up admirably his "message to all British expats" !

[emilymat]

since my previous post I have done some searching on NHS Trust web sites and spoken to an NHS manager (family member).

Try this;

You turn up at A/E whilst you are in the UK. You have a name, Social Security number, perhaps a UK driving licence and, presumably an address where you are staying. You are seen (as anyone is entitled to emergency treatment).

You are then admitted to hospital. Why would they be suspicious and send someone round to the ward to question you?. If they do and ask for your passport you simply say "I haven't got one".

(There are millions of people in the UK without a passport and, in any event, there is no address in a passport. I sometimes think, as an ex-pat that everyone has a passport, simply because we are so used to using it here as an identity card.) So, no passport, no number to check against 'records' of the Border Agency.

Another 'check' a Trust can use - according to the website I visited - is 'Have you a UK bank account' with your address?". I have, and my UK pension is paid quite legally into that account.

The point I'm trying to make is that there would have to be a serious degree of doubt about your eligibility before someone started harassing you whilst you are lying in a bed in hospital. NHS staff are not like that generally.

I've always understood, that, if you are a UK pensioner and have spent at least 10 continuous years living in the UK you are alright anyway.

[billd766]

I have an NHS card/number, issued last year, and a UK passport and driving licence. I live here - for now.

I doubt that if I end up in hospital in the UK they are going to charge me. My reason for saying this is that it is up to individual NHS Trusts to decide on who, or who does not, qualify for treatment. They usually have a manager of some sort to decide this. It would take a Gestapo like interrogation for them to establish I had no right to treatment. Like most, paid NI for 48 years.

The UK Border Agency are now introducing scans of passports on departure as well as arrival so that your absence from the UK can be established and the data collected will be made available to NHS Trusts around the UK. In theory therefore, they won't need to interrogate you at all just present you with a bill at the end of your treatments and record it as unpaid on the same computer system so if you try to leave without paying they could stop you at the airport.

As for NI contributions, the link between them and NHS entitlement has been thrown away and so too are the old principles on which it was based as expounded in this video of Tony Benn on the subject

So of the millions of people that come and go through the airports etc all that information is going to be passed to the NHS computers and logged,so that they can catch pensioners etc who are now living abroad and stop them using it,

Well best of luck with that

I found that video was very interesting and informative. It says a lot about old style politicians and a hell of a lot more about current politicians.

[evadgib]

BTW, why are 'expats' so reviled?

Because Sun readers are deliberatly fed misleading stock photos depicting Mr & Mrs Affluent Wrinkly on a beach in deck chairs while trying to plunder 'their' taxes whenever the subject is raised in the media.

Another dirty trick by HMG!

[i claudius]

BTW, why are 'expats' so reviled?

Because Sun readers are deliberatly fed misleading stock photos depicting Mr & Mrs Affluent Wrinkly on a beach in deck chairs while trying to plunder 'their' taxes whenever the subject is raised in the media.

Another dirty trick by HMG!

Why are we reviled? Because sitting there in the cold ,paying your councill tax,parking charges,worried that if you have half a shandy you will get a ban ,or go 5 mph over the limit get a massive fine and see some immigrant that has just come into the country,getting a house and benefits while you have to pay tax on everything,they're jealous

[keithathome]

Alternatively should the expat community go to the European Court of Human Rights to demand the right to have our NI contributions refunded for the withdrawal of NHS services previously available to them? Should amount to a tidy sum.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments. I think it would be a pointless exercise unless you had every payslip you were issued from the day you started working to show the amounts that you have paid in NI contributions. Furthermore, regardless of the garbage that Politicians spout, we all know that monies are not divvied up into individual pots for each service. All monies go to a central pot and are then allocated to each subsidiary.

1st grand failure that has led the UK to where it is now, in a financial mess.

A few to points to ponder.

1. It is my understanding that anybody residing in the UK, who only has the State Pension, will not pay any tax and will more than likely be receiving all sorts of top up benefits to assist them financially. Even taking the NHS services out of the equation, ex-pat pensioners are getting shafted left, right and centre.

2. I currently, probably not the only one, have an index linked pension from the age of 40. That is taxed at source, nothing I can do about that, but it means that I will continue to pay tax in the UK until the day I die. The likelihood of me returning to the UK are next to nothing. I may not remain in Thailand, it might be elsewhere in the world.

3. Taking point 2 to its logical conclusion, I am about 15 years away from a State Pension. By the time that comes around, the State Pension will be my 3rd pension. Combined, that will mean a lot of tax being paid for a nil return. Their must be others in the same boat.

Although I have time on my hands, and things may change Their must be others who are experiencing this now or will do so in the near future.

Thoughts please.

If we are "full time" expats can we not claim our tax back on whatever monies that are taxed in the YUK ?

[emilymat]

I have a modest private pension here in Thailand. It is subject to income tax. The governments argument is that my contributions were exempt from tax whilst I was working. This is actually true, but don't think for one moment that I support this (and previous governments) on their attitude to pensioners living abroad. In fact, I was told by one MP, when I quizzed him about frozen pensions, that we were lucky to get our state pensions at all, due to the fact they are a 'social security ' benefit .

So, in essence, they want your vote and your income tax but we can go to h..l regarding anything else.

I have always understood that, as an ex pat, you are entitled to claim back tax earned from interest paid on a UK bank account.

I suppose you need a few bob in the bank for this to be a major issue, given the low interest rates.

[JockPieandBeans]

Alternatively should the expat community go to the European Court of Human Rights to demand the right to have our NI contributions refunded for the withdrawal of NHS services previously available to them? Should amount to a tidy sum.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments. I think it would be a pointless exercise unless you had every payslip you were issued from the day you started working to show the amounts that you have paid in NI contributions. Furthermore, regardless of the garbage that Politicians spout, we all know that monies are not divvied up into individual pots for each service. All monies go to a central pot and are then allocated to each subsidiary.

1st grand failure that has led the UK to where it is now, in a financial mess.

A few to points to ponder.

1. It is my understanding that anybody residing in the UK, who only has the State Pension, will not pay any tax and will more than likely be receiving all sorts of top up benefits to assist them financially. Even taking the NHS services out of the equation, ex-pat pensioners are getting shafted left, right and centre.

2. I currently, probably not the only one, have an index linked pension from the age of 40. That is taxed at source, nothing I can do about that, but it means that I will continue to pay tax in the UK until the day I die. The likelihood of me returning to the UK are next to nothing. I may not remain in Thailand, it might be elsewhere in the world.

3. Taking point 2 to its logical conclusion, I am about 15 years away from a State Pension. By the time that comes around, the State Pension will be my 3rd pension. Combined, that will mean a lot of tax being paid for a nil return. Their must be others in the same boat.

Although I have time on my hands, and things may change Their must be others who are experiencing this now or will do so in the near future.

Thoughts please.

If we are "full time" expats can we not claim our tax back on whatever monies that are taxed in the YUK ?

In the case of pensions, that are paid from the UK. Then the answer is no. It is classed as UK income and taxed as such.

[JockPieandBeans]

I have a modest private pension here in Thailand. It is subject to income tax. The governments argument is that my contributions were exempt from tax whilst I was working. This is actually true, but don't think for one moment that I support this (and previous governments) on their attitude to pensioners living abroad. In fact, I was told by one MP, when I quizzed him about frozen pensions, that we were lucky to get our state pensions at all, due to the fact they are a 'social security ' benefit .

So, in essence, they want your vote and your income tax but we can go to h..l regarding anything else.

I have always understood that, as an ex pat, you are entitled to claim back tax earned from interest paid on a UK bank account.

I suppose you need a few bob in the bank for this to be a major issue, given the low interest rates.

Portion highlighted by me.

Although I have no proof, I believe that the terminology used '' Social Security Benefit '' is for the benefit of the Government and the Government alone. Primarily on the basis, that the Government calls the tune over '' Social Security Benefits ''

I fail to see, how something can be classed as a '' Social Security Benefit '' when you are forced by law to pay into it. When someone has paid in excess of 30 years contributions into something, it is not a benefit, it is an entitlement.

When I, and many others started paying tax and NIC's at the grand old age of 16, I was not given the option of opting out. That money was deducted at source. The fact that the UK is neck deep in poo poo does not escape this fact. That the money was used for other things rather than invested in funds to pay those future pensions is not our problem.

Anytime that the Government wishes to discuss refunding my contributions along with compound interest as a lump sum payment I will be all ears.

[elliss]

Powell and Benn and a few others warned that the "common market" would morph into a massive central controlling bureaucratic entity, continually extending its tentacles,and how so they have been proven. The UK politicians in the last 30 years have been supine, with the so called "endorsement" of elections. Need some real tough independent minded anti EU Mps on May 8th. Any but labour SNP or Libs.

[a99az]

The easy solution to the problem is to keep a residents in the UK be it your own or the states and spend lots of time visiting Thailand as many do. That way you get full and unfettered access to all the services in the UK as many will attest to. It also saves you having your pension frozen.

[topt]

The easy solution to the problem is to keep a residents in the UK be it your own or the states and spend lots of time visiting Thailand as many do. That way you get full and unfettered access to all the services in the UK as many will attest to. It also saves you having your pension frozen.

Unfortunately it is not an easy solution if you are generating other income offshore which you are currently not taxed on as a non resident. You would have to weigh up whether it was worth becoming resident for tax purposes again to get access to the other benefits.

[dragonfly94]

Of course not, the UKBA will collect the data for British citizens departure/arrivals on their database and the NHS will simply perform an enquiry against that database for people they wish to check out so no need to hold the data in two places. It might mean security checks at the airports take longer of course. Hohum

Yes in theory they can see if you have been out of the UK and for how long, but not where you have been. For all they know you could have been anywhere in the EU and as such still be treated to all the normal benefits as if you had been at home the whole time, pensions the same. Or am I wrong?

[Loptr]

[trevoromgh]

Of course not, the UKBA will collect the data for British citizens departure/arrivals on their database and the NHS will simply perform an enquiry against that database for people they wish to check out so no need to hold the data in two places. It might mean security checks at the airports take longer of course. Hohum

Yes in theory they can see if you have been out of the UK and for how long, but not where you have been. For all they know you could have been anywhere in the EU and as such still be treated to all the normal benefits as if you had been at home the whole time, pensions the same. Or am I wrong?

As well as capturing departure dates they can crossmatch this to destination data from the airlines (I believe) and record it as they did recently for the three girls who went to join ISIS and it was immediately reported they had flown to Turkey before crossing the border to Syria. Nowadays personal data is captured and tracked relentlessly and it's not just the UKBA doing it. For example Tesco analyse customer purchases in fine detail and if you have a Clubcard will target you with vouchers tailored to your individual spending patterns.

[i claudius]

Of course not, the UKBA will collect the data for British citizens departure/arrivals on their database and the NHS will simply perform an enquiry against that database for people they wish to check out so no need to hold the data in two places. It might mean security checks at the airports take longer of course. Hohum

Yes in theory they can see if you have been out of the UK and for how long, but not where you have been. For all they know you could have been anywhere in the EU and as such still be treated to all the normal benefits as if you had been at home the whole time, pensions the same. Or am I wrong?

As well as capturing departure dates they can crossmatch this to destination data from the airlines (I believe) and record it as they did recently for the three girls who went to join ISIS and it was immediately reported they had flown to Turkey before crossing the border to Syria. Nowadays personal data is captured and tracked relentlessly and it's not just the UKBA doing it. For example Tesco analyse customer purchases in fine detail and if you have a Clubcard will target you with vouchers tailored to your individual spending patterns.

Stop worrying ,do you honestly think the NHS or any other dept is watching to see where pensioners go ? they will look only if they are looking for you ,i know someone who lives near me who is at this moment ghaving an operation on the NHS ,rather than pay here ,he paid in all his life so good for him .

[trevoromgh]

You are probably correct IC, right now there is very little checking being done by the NHS because the law has only just been brought in but I'd say by the end of the year there will be a noticeable difference in their approach.

[a99az]

The easy solution to the problem is to keep a residents in the UK be it your own or the states and spend lots of time visiting Thailand as many do. That way you get full and unfettered access to all the services in the UK as many will attest to. It also saves you having your pension frozen.

Unfortunately it is not an easy solution if you are generating other income offshore which you are currently not taxed on as a non resident. You would have to weigh up whether it was worth becoming resident for tax purposes again to get access to the other benefits.

"pay unto ceasar that which is caesar's" unless you can keep it! So why pay twice if at all.

[a99az]

Of course not, the UKBA will collect the data for British citizens departure/arrivals on their database and the NHS will simply perform an enquiry against that database for people they wish to check out so no need to hold the data in two places. It might mean security checks at the airports take longer of course. Hohum

Yes in theory they can see if you have been out of the UK and for how long, but not where you have been. For all they know you could have been anywhere in the EU and as such still be treated to all the normal benefits as if you had been at home the whole time, pensions the same. Or am I wrong?

That's right pop to France then fly out. In any case there is no time limit on pensioners holidays yet nor the frequency at which you take them that would be expensive to regulate.

[a99az]

You are probably correct IC, right now there is very little checking being done by the NHS because the law has only just been brought in but I'd say by the end of the year there will be a noticeable difference in their approach.

It would be very expensive to regulate and it would bring into question things like Human right to travel where and when you want on "holiday" Remember we are talking about a British citizen excising his right to travel freely on holiday. Not an ex-pat screwing the UK out of what he is due. This is not Thailand, here we respect what we have as a god giver right and it won't be stolen so easily by some despot.

[mmh8]

A very scientific study was carried out between a number of subjects that were incompetant and the British Government, these studies found that the government was consistantly incompetant, while the incompetant subjects were found to be competant around 40 percent of the time through incompetant attempts at dealing with the incompetance tests.

Lets just wait for the government to say ok, we will charge you for helath service and tax you ,,,, oh wait

[i claudius]

You are probably correct IC, right now there is very little checking being done by the NHS because the law has only just been brought in but I'd say by the end of the year there will be a noticeable difference in their approach.

If you still have a doctor in the UK and a N.I number you will be treated

[samuibeachcomber]

benefits to expats are always the first to suffer....easy targets,small representation.Yes you can keep your benefits by continually returning to your home country.OK if you dont mind doing this,but the older i get the less i want to travel.

[elliss]

Why you think we left your politics stink,why would i or anyone stay in my own country and be treated as a alien,but good on ya you give handouts to others but not your own,You should put your own house in order before you start telling me what to do!

So true , 1000 per cent accurate .

Welcome to Thailand , where the foreigner / farang , is a Alien , and long may it last.

Third world ?? , ..

I think not .. Thai culture ,is very protective ,and it will survive. Sure.

PS. back to topic ,

Camerons message, to all ex-pats.

. Go to Greece , and be funded by the EU .

God bless Germany.,,,and EU Queen Angella

Edited June 21, 2015 by elliss

[nong38]

There was interesting article in the Mail on Sunday on the 14th June about GCHQ. It intercepts millions of phone calls and can gather huge amounts of data and it can analyse who is doing what and when, the article suggested how from all the amount of data they bring the targets down to a small amount to follow and investigate, they could I expect is required, so the same with ex pats movements but I think they are more interested in catching terrorists and their human resources are finite so they have to get their priorities right and its most unlikely they are going to be targeting a few expats in NHS beds when they should not be there or are having a few beers on a Thai beach with a normal pension when it should be frozen.

I am sure the HMG could do what ever it wants but its resources have to be prioritized and they would be crucified for hounding a few old pensioners who have paid their dues to society.