Missing tigers remain a mystery at Tiger Temple

[English 1]

The unfortunate animals are Drugged up as most people know.

​Close that money spinner down and take all the animals to a sanctuary.

[cumgranosalum]

The unfortunate animals are Drugged up as most people know.

​Close that money spinner down and take all the animals to a sanctuary.

The temple needs to be dealt with according to the proven concerns - drugging although suspected is DEFINITELY NOT proven.

I don't know why people have latched onto this, it is largely a red herring.

the illegal breeding and false claims to be a conservation-orientated establishment are FAR more important. they are if anything an ecological time-bomb.

Allegations of trading in endangered species puts Thailand in breach of the CITES treaty - this is an organisation that can impose severe sanctions upon Thailand. They already are awaiting a report on the IVORY trade in Thailand (due end of March). If they fail to satisfy CXITES, they will very likely incur snactions anyway, and the grip will tighten if they are shown also to be a hub for the trade in Tigers and their parts.....

[cumgranosalum]

The unfortunate animals are Drugged up as most people know.

​Close that money spinner down and take all the animals to a sanctuary.

The temple needs to be dealt with according to the proven concerns - drugging although suspected is DEFINITELY NOT proven.

I don't know why people have latched onto this, it is largely a red herring.

the illegal breeding and false claims to be a conservation-orientated establishment are FAR more important. they are if anything an ecological time-bomb.

Allegations of trading in endangered species puts Thailand in breach of the CITES treaty - this is an organisation that can impose severe sanctions upon Thailand. They already are awaiting a report on the IVORY trade in Thailand (due end of March). If they fail to satisfy CITES, they will very likely incur sanctions anyway, and the grip will tighten if they are shown also to be a hub for the trade in Tigers and their parts.....

[bangon04]

Bus loads of Chinese tourists....missing tigers. Hmmm?

Yes - hands up everyone who genuinely thinks this is some sort of mystery....??

The only real mystery is how / why the Thai investigators STILL allow those responsible to save face by lying blatantly.

[MiKT]

Well you can just imagine it can't you,

Monk scratching his head "missing tigers, missing tigers, mmm", looks around, "well they was ere yesterday guv for sure, just ang on and I'll ask me mate"; "ere Jimbo, what happened to those 3 tigers then" Jimbo, burping and wiping his lips "duno mate, they was ere yesterday for sure, ang on I'll just ask"........

[Gandtee]

Arrest them for impeding police officers and preventing them from doing their duty.All Thais are( or should be) equal under the law. They are making the authorities a laughing stock around the world. They should make some effort to save the little of the remaining face they have left.

[EnglishJohn]

Good old Plodprasop - seized them from the temple then gave them back after they promised to look after them !. Now they have disappeared !!.

I do miss him. Just his name makes me smile, then when I remember the act he did where he stomped around like a demented buffoon and pretended he didn't even realise what a dick he was making of himself, I almost start laughing again.

I wonder where he is now. Starring in the Thai version of 'In Sickness and in Health' I expect.

[circusman]

The unfortunate animals are Drugged up as most people know.

​Close that money spinner down and take all the animals to a sanctuary.

And just how do most people know they are drugged ? How do you know English? Fact is you don't.

Would it be even practical to supply that much drug AND get it into that many big cats ? No sir.

Combination of raising them from cubs by hand and the oppressive heat of the temple grounds is my guess. I have owned tigers by the way.

[circusman]

The tiger temple is not the only well known place in Thailand that raises a large number of tigers. And guess where they go.

[khaowong1]

>>They made returning with court order after yesterday inspection of the temple failed to get any progress after the temple refused to give cooperation for the combined team.<<Quote

The holy saffron brothers cheating and stealing in the name of Buddha again!!

So many monks in Thailand are a true disgrace to the wows they have taken!!

Maybe they had their fingers crossed behind their backs when taking the vows so they are not bound by them.

As you well know NKK, the monks do their vows in Pali. Maybe the Sangha council should change the vow taking to their national language so there's no mis-understanding. I say this kind of tongue in cheek, but know for a fact that most people taking these vows have no clue what they are saying, only repeating the words. Same with the laity coming to the temple chanting the 5 precepts, a lot of them are just reading from a script or book and don't know what they are vowing. Thai Buddhism needs a BIG change. This tiger temple has been there for a number of years. Would not be surprised that hanky panky is going on.

[Rogergreybeard]

Budist and all religions are rip-offs the los is so screwed up with greed and corruption, with the crooks investigating other crooks, but there are other countries the same just look at our neighbours

[cumgranosalum]

The tiger temple is not the only well known place in Thailand that raises a large number of tigers. And guess where they go.

That's pure nonsense - there are SEVERAL places in Thailand that have large numbers of Tigers.

the Sri Racha Zoo claims to have the largest collection of tigers in the world (over 200) - only in Thailand (or China?) could they get away with this.

as for drugging - It's quite possible - there has even been video that suggests how they were drugged.....as for the amounts - well very small doses of tranquillisers are relatively cheap and very easy to conceal or misidentify.

So - the drugging is PLAUSIBLE - but NOT PROVEN and trying to do that is basically a waste of time; what is needed is for a new management to take over and gradually unravel the mess the monks have created.

[off road pat]

They ate them?

No, they soled them to China or Vietnam.....Tiger parts are worth a fortune there...!!!

And this is happening for some years now.....!!!

[lemonjelly]

The unfortunate animals are Drugged up as most people know.

​Close that money spinner down and take all the animals to a sanctuary.

And just how do most people know they are drugged ? How do you know English? Fact is you don't.

Would it be even practical to supply that much drug AND get it into that many big cats ? No sir.

Combination of raising them from cubs by hand and the oppressive heat of the temple grounds is my guess. I have owned tigers by the way.

But surely the tigers in circuses have been raised by hand since they were cubs, yet I've never seen a 'cuddle the tiger" tent at a circus.

[nidieunimaitre]

The unfortunate animals are Drugged up as most people know.

​Close that money spinner down and take all the animals to a sanctuary.

And just how do most people know they are drugged ? How do you know English? Fact is you don't.

Would it be even practical to supply that much drug AND get it into that many big cats ? No sir.

Combination of raising them from cubs by hand and the oppressive heat of the temple grounds is my guess. I have owned tigers by the way.

But surely, you were not sick enough to call yourself a Buddhist?

[cumgranosalum]

They ate them?

No, they soled them to China or Vietnam.....Tiger parts are worth a fortune there...!!!

And this is happening for some years now.....!!!

Not very likely...... what is most likely is that any Tigers entering the trade in that area would head for the "Golden Triangle". this means they would probably go through Laos. (Maybe Burma). - there were allegations several years back, that the temple had shipped tigers to or from Laos before without the correct paperwork - the temple explained this away as some kind of misunderstanding.

Once in the Golden Triangle, the animals ca be shipped or cut up and then shipped into China.

[englishoak]

Theres no mystery, its just another bunch of corrupt monks making money scam.

Place is a disgrace on so many levels but being Thailand everyone pretends to not know anything ............... ... BS

[Userone]

What sanctions does the CITES treaty have authority to invoke?

The unfortunate animals are Drugged up as most people know.

​Close that money spinner down and take all the animals to a sanctuary.

The temple needs to be dealt with according to the proven concerns - drugging although suspected is DEFINITELY NOT proven.

I don't know why people have latched onto this, it is largely a red herring.

the illegal breeding and false claims to be a conservation-orientated establishment are FAR more important. they are if anything an ecological time-bomb.

Allegations of trading in endangered species puts Thailand in breach of the CITES treaty - this is an organisation that can impose severe sanctions upon Thailand. They already are awaiting a report on the IVORY trade in Thailand (due end of March). If they fail to satisfy CXITES, they will very likely incur snactions anyway, and the grip will tighten if they are shown also to be a hub for the trade in Tigers and their parts.....

[cumgranosalum]

so if the press do their stuff we might here some more on this in the next day or two........it looks as if the "cosy" relationship betwee th temple and the Dept NP and Wildlife is being eroded, or at least going through a rough patch.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/missing-tigers-remain-a-mystery-at-tiger-temple

[cumgranosalum]

What sanctions does the CITES treaty have authority to invoke?

The unfortunate animals are Drugged up as most people know.

​Close that money spinner down and take all the animals to a sanctuary.

The temple needs to be dealt with according to the proven concerns - drugging although suspected is DEFINITELY NOT proven.

I don't know why people have latched onto this, it is largely a red herring.

the illegal breeding and false claims to be a conservation-orientated establishment are FAR more important. they are if anything an ecological time-bomb.

Allegations of trading in endangered species puts Thailand in breach of the CITES treaty - this is an organisation that can impose severe sanctions upon Thailand. They already are awaiting a report on the IVORY trade in Thailand (due end of March). If they fail to satisfy CXITES, they will very likely incur snactions anyway, and the grip will tighten if they are shown also to be a hub for the trade in Tigers and their parts.....

"Possible sanctions would impact Thailand’s trade in species covered by the convention, including ornamental plants, such as orchids, and reptile leather. Trade suspensions would, for example, prevent exports of orchids, which would result in a loss of more than $80.7 million in annual sales based on the 2013 value of this trade. The economic impact would be significant as the value of just some of Thailand’s CITES-listed export items was estimated at $157 million in 2012." - WWF

Just recently Prayuth has been seen visiting and commenting on the orchid trade and promising a bright future for them....to me this looks as if he is preparing for the worst from CITES in ther next few days and is trying to align himself with the orchid industry.

[cumgranosalum]

What sanctions does the CITES treaty have authority to invoke?

The unfortunate animals are Drugged up as most people know.

​Close that money spinner down and take all the animals to a sanctuary.

The temple needs to be dealt with according to the proven concerns - drugging although suspected is DEFINITELY NOT proven.

I don't know why people have latched onto this, it is largely a red herring.

the illegal breeding and false claims to be a conservation-orientated establishment are FAR more important. they are if anything an ecological time-bomb.

Allegations of trading in endangered species puts Thailand in breach of the CITES treaty - this is an organisation that can impose severe sanctions upon Thailand. They already are awaiting a report on the IVORY trade in Thailand (due end of March). If they fail to satisfy CXITES, they will very likely incur snactions anyway, and the grip will tighten if they are shown also to be a hub for the trade in Tigers and their parts.....

"Possible sanctions would impact Thailand’s trade in species covered by the convention, including ornamental plants, such as orchids, and reptile leather. Trade suspensions would, for example, prevent exports of orchids, which would result in a loss of more than $80.7 million in annual sales based on the 2013 value of this trade. The economic impact would be significant as the value of just some of Thailand’s CITES-listed export items was estimated at $157 million in 2012." - WWF

Just recently Prayuth has been seen visiting and commenting on the orchid trade and promising a bright future for them....to me this looks as if he is preparing for the worst from CITES in ther next few days and is trying to align himself with the orchid industry.

[cumgranosalum]

Here are a a few updates..

firstly from WFFT....this is a good summary of the recent events so far.......

http://www.wfft.org/wildlife-general/tiger-temple-update/

....and then Coconuts......

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2015/04/02/tiger-temple-refuses-explain-missing-tigers

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2015/03/24/eeny-meeny-miny-moe-count-tiger-temple-cats-thwarted

[Farang99]

>>They made returning with court order after yesterday inspection of the temple failed to get any progress after the temple refused to give cooperation for the combined team.<<Quote

The holy saffron brothers cheating and stealing in the name of Buddha again!!

So many monks in Thailand are a true disgrace to the wows they have taken!!

Let me get this straight - onthe first occasion the inspection team was refused access

They returned with a court order, and were again refused.

Now they are going back with a search warrant.

Does anyone believe this "high-powered" inspection team is ever going to find out the truth?

[cumgranosalum]

>>They made returning with court order after yesterday inspection of the temple failed to get any progress after the temple refused to give cooperation for the combined team.<<Quote

The holy saffron brothers cheating and stealing in the name of Buddha again!!

So many monks in Thailand are a true disgrace to the wows they have taken!!

Let me get this straight - onthe first occasion the inspection team was refused access

They returned with a court order, and were again refused.

Now they are going back with a search warrant.

Does anyone believe this "high-powered" inspection team is ever going to find out the truth?

One still has to question how motivated the investigators actually are. ........and also their competence.

It seems to me that any attempt to control the mess that is the temple would HAVE to include experts from outside the usual bodies (National parks etc) - preferably top Big Cats experts provided by international Wildlife organisations.

[ChrisY1]

Unless an international campaign is organised and an international organisation is recruited to transfer and look after them, it will be a case of "out of the frying pan, into the fire"

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Quite right.......nothing will happen until international condemnation......Thais need to be shamed before they do anything!

[cumgranosalum]

Unless an international campaign is organised and an international organisation is recruited to transfer and look after them, it will be a case of "out of the frying pan, into the fire"

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Quite right.......nothing will happen until international condemnation......Thais need to be shamed before they do anything!

It's more than just losing face here. There needs to be people involved who have the necessary expertise to deal with these tigers and all the other animals. Simply moving them from one place to another will not IMO solve any of the inherent problems.

The situation has been allowed to get totally out of hand.

The tigers are of indeterminate ancestry and even the vet mentioned doesn't seem to acknowledge the problems this causes. We know there are at least TWO sub-species there - the Bengal and Indonesian and they should not be allowed to interbreed. Furthermore breeding in a confined population without reference to the appropriate genetic background could lead to inbreeding which can be disastrous.

So we have a situation with nearly 150 tigers in the care of people who have shown scant regard for the scientific care and conservation of wildlife or endangered species. who at least in the past have made false claims about their conservation aims ....and "the authorities" are left with the problem of what can feasibly be done in this situation.

None of these creatures can EVER in any circumstances be released into the wild...

[Ramberg]

To all those accusing this wonderful place of sedating tge tigers.

If you had ever actually been to that TT for the early morning-to-midday period you would know for a fact that the Tigers there arent sedated or drugged.

Those in other so called tiger temples around Thailand display signs of what you accuse this wonderful place of, but then again, those other places also happen to be zoos full stop. In many cases, tigers who were sent there were originally to be shot by land workers for posing a threat to their livestock and families. At least here they have an opportunity for a nicer life than an instant round to the face from people encroaching upon their territory.

Unless you actually have the tiniest shread of first hand knowledge of this wonderful place, pull your head in and stop being an alarmist idiot.

As for the alledged missing tigers I can say not as I know nothing on that. But having been there multiple times, the last being just days ago, I can honestly say that the tigers there are energentic and appear far happier than any I have encountered in my travels visiting and inspecting all of Thailand's 'tiger temple' developments.

Shame on you all.

[boomerangutang]

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A tour guide in Bangkok who takes tourists there told me if you go behind the temple you can see the head monks shiny top of the range Mercedes. Thailand is known to be a major supplier of tigers and tiger parts to the Chinese market. Those in the know have been saying for years that this place is heavily involved in the illegal trade. Should be shut down and all the animals there confiscated. Why were officials denied entrance if nothing to hide?

ok, but even moving the remaining tigers to a sanctuary may not be much better. Who can say new owners will be more decent than the current monk owners? Money is paramount in Thailand, so if there's a big offer by a Chinese, it will take an exceptional Thai to turn it down.

Plus, how do you move tigers without anyone noticing? Pack 'em in a vehicle. Granted, all vehicles in Thailand have tinted windows - always rolled up tight, but still....

Alternatively, cut the tigers in to pieces and package them? The disappearance has 'complicit officials' and tranquilizers written all over it.

[cumgranosalum]

To all those accusing this wonderful place of sedating tge tigers.

If you had ever actually been to that TT for the early morning-to-midday period you would know for a fact that the Tigers there arent sedated or drugged.

Those in other so called tiger temples around Thailand display signs of what you accuse this wonderful place of, but then again, those other places also happen to be zoos full stop. In many cases, tigers who were sent there were originally to be shot by land workers for posing a threat to their livestock and families. At least here they have an opportunity for a nicer life than an instant round to the face from people encroaching upon their territory.

Unless you actually have the tiniest shread of first hand knowledge of this wonderful place, pull your head in and stop being an alarmist idiot.

As for the alledged missing tigers I can say not as I know nothing on that. But having been there multiple times, the last being just days ago, I can honestly say that the tigers there are energentic and appear far happier than any I have encountered in my travels visiting and inspecting all of Thailand's 'tiger temple' developments.

Shame on you all.

It is quite common on threads about the tiger temple to get posts like this.

They appear “out of the blue” form a person who has NEVER posted before on the forum and rather than address the issues they either extoll the “virtues” of the temple or try to dichotomize the issue or divert attention from the real problems of the place.

This is a PERFECT example of such a post..........

It has already been pointed out that the “drugging” of tigers is not central to the issues surrounding the temple - there are far more serious problems than that.

“First hand knowledge” - There is also the old chestnut of suggesting that unless you’ve visited the place, you haven’t got the right to pass judgment.

This is of course patently nonsense........

Firstly as a layperson it would be impossible to make ANY judgment from a few hours walking round supervised by the monks.

Secondly, the arguments against the temple are based of sound conservation science and criticize practices that the temple cannot hide - the breeding program, the caging of tigers the inappropriate diet.....and the misleading implications the temple makes about its conservation credentials.

“In many cases, tigers who were sent there were originally to be shot by land workers for posing a threat to their livestock and families” - in another paragraph the poster calls for the “tiniest shred of evidence” - well there is none to suggest that the original tigers were anything but bought from the poachers who had killed the mother - e.g. kill the mother for parts and then make extra money by selling the cubs to a zoo or temple.

It is also misleading to suggest that any but a few of the tigers were “rescued” - the temple has had an illegal breeding program and I’m sure it can be easily demonstrated that the majority of the animals were “farmed” at the temple.

“. At least here they have an opportunity for a nicer life than an instant round to the face from people encroaching upon their territory.” -

This actually still infers either that the animals were rescued from the wild - the majority were not - Again falsely alluding to conservation merits, it also shows that the poster has no real understanding of all the factors that are endangering tigers in the wild and doesn’t understand that keeping 150 of them in captivity is NOT and never can be a solution to the overall conservation problem.

BTW - As far as the drugging goes; - I have said time and again it is a red-herring, but some of the comments of this post need to be addressed......

There IS a video that shows how the animals may or may not be drugged - Google it - this is actually quite easily done without the knowledge of such people as volunteers.

The temple insists that the “docile” behavior of the tigers is due to normal tiger behavioral characteristics. However there is NOTHING normal about the way the tigers are fed or kept at the temple. One thing to bear in mind about tigers is that unlike lions they are by nature solitary animals and the close proximity of other tigers particularly males, can be particularly stressful to them. So one way of getting round this would be to tranquilize the animals.

The cages the animals are kept in also have no provision for the animals to get out of sight of each other - again keeping their animals in a state of stress.

It has also been stated by a volunteer that there are now several animals that are deemed to unpredictable to be in contact with the public - how they are dealt with is not clear - but it is alleged they are caged for long, long lengths of time.

It is common practice for those who show animals around Thailand to drug them to make them more controllable and docile when in public, so it would not be difficult if the temple so wanted to obtain these drugs and administer them.

As far as I’m aware any blood tests carried out on these animals have not been carried our by independent bodies and no reviewable results have ever been released.

Finally....

“I can honestly say that the tigers there are energentic {sic} and appear far happier than any I have encountered in my travels visiting and inspecting all of Thailand's 'tiger temple' developments.”

- in what capacity does this person operate? Does he/she actually feel that by anthropomorphising tiger behaviour it provides any proof of their “wellbeing”?

[boomerangutang]

>>They made returning with court order after yesterday inspection of the temple failed to get any progress after the temple refused to give cooperation for the combined team.<<Quote

The holy saffron brothers cheating and stealing in the name of Buddha again!!

So many monks in Thailand are a true disgrace to the wows they have taken!!

Let me get this straight - onthe first occasion the inspection team was refused access

They returned with a court order, and were again refused.

Now they are going back with a search warrant.

Does anyone believe this "high-powered" inspection team is ever going to find out the truth?

It will likely need farang supervision to have a chance at finding out the truth. Similar to searches for illegal African ivory: if Thais are left to their own devices, they can't apprehend the bad guys. However, if farang are brought in and put in charge (with Thai assistance), then there's a better chance of bad guys being caught. And even in the best circumstances, the bad guys will probably get informed (by a leak) before inspectors show up. And, in the rare case they get caught, they'll likely get let off with nary a wrist slap, because Thais are not serious about environmental husbandry.