Red shirts event 'needs permission', NCPO says

[mikemac]

the truth is that Thaksin and the red shirts are not the same thing.

the truth is that the red shirts are the ONLY group in Thailand who consistently call for democracy.

the truth is that in 2010 the red shirts were protesting against a military-installed government.

those are facts, so to use your words, "get a life".

Your comments have hit rock bottom tb and I see no point in arguing with you any more, so I won't. I won't even comment on your "facts" and "truths" anymore.

But posting absolute lies and bs like ..........."the truth is that Thaksin and the red shirts are not the same thing."............ will get you nowhere, except a reputation of trolling liar.

The fact is if it were not for Thaksin the redshirts would have been just a distant memory, not a deadly terrorist organisation. And if it were not for the redshirts Thaksin would have just started another private army of thugs to do his dirty work.

[tbthailand]

the truth is that Thaksin and the red shirts are not the same thing.

the truth is that the red shirts are the ONLY group in Thailand who consistently call for democracy.

the truth is that in 2010 the red shirts were protesting against a military-installed government.

those are facts, so to use your words, "get a life".

Your comments have hit rock bottom tb and I see no point in arguing with you any more, so I won't. I won't even comment on your "facts" and "truths" anymore.

But posting absolute lies and bs like ..........."the truth is that Thaksin and the red shirts are not the same thing."............ will get you nowhere, except a reputation of trolling liar.

The fact is if it were not for Thaksin the redshirts would have been just a distant memory, not a deadly terrorist organisation. And if it were not for the redshirts Thaksin would have just started another private army of thugs to do his dirty work.

you have no clue, do you?

Please, continue to live in your blind little bubble of Thaksin hate.

He's no angel, but he's not the real problem.

[rametindallas]

It seems that reading comprehension in not you strong suit. I wrote that the Red Shirt armed mob 'tried' to overthrow the legitimate Abhisit government. They failed and are still crying about it. Any discussions of other events are OFF TOPIC and irrelevant. To this day, the Red Shirt/UDD are trying to portray themselves as the victims in the 2010 attempted soft coup when everyone knows it was initiated/paid for by Dr. Thaksin when his ill-gotten gains were confiscated. The Red Shirt/UDD are NOT victims but Perpetrators and traitors to Thailand for their uncritical support and violent behavior in support of the fugitive felon ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra. That must have been some strong Kool-Ade you drank that you are still defending that evil creature. The criminal traitor, Thaksin, is never coming back to Thailand and it's past time you and the other sycophants realize this fact and get a life. Try pulling for Thailand to succeed and not some fugitive felon to get back in power to murder and plunder again.

the truth is that Thaksin and the red shirts are not the same thing.

the truth is that the red shirts are the ONLY group in Thailand who consistently call for democracy.

the truth is that in 2010 the red shirts were protesting against a military-installed government.

those are facts, so to use your words, "get a life".

After his ouster in 2006, he (Thaksin) began employing (paying) his Moaist led, Marxist indoctrinated mob simply called the “red shirts.” Officially they are called the UDD or the National United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship. The cogs at work here are best explained by Therdpoum Chaidee, a former communist and colleague of current UDD protest leaders, as well as a member of parliament under Thaksin’s now defunct Thai Rak Thai party.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

http://www.infowars.com/thailands-thaksin-shinwatra-marxists-and-the-nwo/

I hope it's ignorance on your part and you are not a Thaksin propagandist. From reading your past posts though, I have a suspicion you are a Thaksin propagandists. With all the links supplied to rebut your substantiated claims I find it difficult to believe anyone can be so willfully ignorant of the connection between Thaksin and the UDD/Red Shirts. He chose their leadership and paid their salaries. He paid for the Red Shirts to come to shut down Bangkok and paid them a daily rate to stay. He made nightly speeches broadcast, from who knows where, exhorting them to fight for 'democracy' which is Red Shirt lingo for a Thaksin dictatorship. You are correct that Thaksin and the Red Shirts are not the same thing; one is the boss and the others are soldiers following the boss's orders. Yes, the Red Shirts consistently call for 'democracy' but they have been told that democracy is simply the tyranny of the majority. Ask a Red Shirt what democracy is and he/she cannot tell you. Here is some of what was said on a nightly basis on the Red Shirt stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqZ6ejEbcPo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K6bGlnirgk

From reading your past posts though, I have a suspicion you are a Thaksin propagandists.

I think that it is pretty clear from what I have said here during my time that I don't care about Thaksin. He's not the problem. He's just a player - sure, he is an important (or was) player over the last 15 years, but he is neither the source of all ills in Thailand nor a significant factor in the long-term future of Thailand - that honor belongs to the military institution/elite allies and social movements toward greater democracy, respectively. So, with all due respect, you might want to watch more closely what I say about Thaksin. I think you haven't understood my opinion of the man. (btw, he clearly understood/understands where the real power in Thailand lies. While he was PM he clearly did his best to make sure that the military as an institution would be an ally and not an enemy. He did not succeed, but he was trying like he11)

As for being a paid propagandist, well, all I can say is that I am very familiar with the sources that you link to and I can't take the accusation of "paid propagandist" very seriously. There are many paid propagandists out there and you linked to a couple. Good job

Seriously, it's not my job to change your opinion, but IMO, you would do well to search out a much much wider range of information. There is good and bad in any organization, and such is the case with the red shirts. The red shirts still remain to this day the only social movement in Thailand which consistently calls for democracy and elections.

he is neither the source of all ills in Thailand

Straw Man argument as no one says he is the source of ALL the ills in Thailand; just the Red Shirt mob and associated violence.

As for being a paid propagandist

Another Straw Man as I never said you were paid or even hinted at it.

I can't take the accusation of "paid propagandist" very seriously.

Here you falsely quote me. How dishonest are you willing to be in your arguments?

it's not my job to change your opinion

I'm not expecting you to try to change my opinion as what you call 'my opinion' are documented facts that disprove your untrue statements in the post I replied to.

The red shirts still remain to this day the only social movement in Thailand which consistently calls for democracy and elections.

The ONLY group? The Red Shirts, from their public statements, wouldn't know what democracy was if it bit them on the ass. Thaksin himself is famous for saying democracy was not his goal and the Red Shirts are his followers who believe every utterance from their hero.

You should probably stop now as you are looking more and more ridiculous.

[jayboy]

Kind of logical.The same people who killed civilian demonstrators now banning remembrance celebrations.

[Baerboxer]

Got just about every extreme right wing, junta loving tv contributor to comment, but offer zero rebuttal, all in the same thread.

But the truth is in the answers -

Who has won every election this century?

Who wants to make merit in commemoration of their fellow travelers who were killed/murdered in 2010?

Who overthrew democracy 11 months ago?

Is section 44 of the interim constitution pro freedom and pro democracy?

​Maybe you can all stop practicing your goosestepping for long enough to offer some answers and I must say that I'm touched to have all the fascists on the long line at the one time

Indeed, you are probably touched if you really believe any of the Shin owned parties were interested in democracy, or improving the plight of the poor.

Despite all their constant assertions of both, their actions, showed otherwise. Simply a new gang who, not content with a big share, wanted it all for themselves.

They were, and to a degree still are, at convincing some people that all the nepotism, cronyism, corruption, lies, cheating and worse that usually accompanies them is acceptable because really, they will change things for the better. After so many years of making they got rich themselves, the penny is finally dropping.

My wife and many of her old Uni friends all supported PTP in the 2011 elections. Why - they all still passionately want a real democracy, with a much fairer society, with real improvements in education and opportunities for the poor; and a just society with one rule of law for all, without bias and favor. They wanted a reduction in corruption, lies and ineffective government. They believed Yingluck could have been the "breath of fresh air", a woman, young and full of energy and determined to push through the changes.

How bitterly disappointed they now are. They feel betrayed - how she simply turned power over to her criminal fugitive brother who simply carried on in his self enriching corrupt ways, doing very little and delivering even less in the form of change or real benefits to the country and the poor. The lies, which became increasingly outrageous, they considered an insult. The final straw was the Amnesty whitewash Thaksin bill. They were not only angered by the fact a criminal fugitive was running a government, and trying to simply whitewash all crimes and charges, but also by the dubious way PTP were doing it; ignoring parliamentary procedure and illegally making amendments. Then Yingluck lying, again, about the bill being withdrawn. So much time, energy and cost wasted - all for one man's benefit. So, all these former PTP voters went and joined the initial mass protests. As did most of my children's friends' parents and neighbors.

Now their problem is, they have no one to vote for, should / when / if a new election is held. They have zero trust in PTP or any party that is owned, controlled, or influenced by the Shin family. Sadly, there just isn't anyone filling the role they want, nor even more sadly as there ever been,

Opposing the corrupt self enriching PTP / Shin family political party or their red shirt private militia and terrorist wing does not mean people are right wing, fascist, or supporters of the current government. That's the game Shin PR and their supporters try to play in perpetuating and growing the myth that Shin owned parties are pro-democratic, socially minded, working class supporting parties.

Maybe you can stop pretending long enough realize that those who do nothing to prevent attacks on their opponents or apprehend the culprits; and who openly applaud and cheer the murder of children, are not likely to be particularly interested in real democracy.

[Baerboxer]

the truth is that Thaksin and the red shirts are not the same thing.

the truth is that the red shirts are the ONLY group in Thailand who consistently call for democracy.

the truth is that in 2010 the red shirts were protesting against a military-installed government.

those are facts, so to use your words, "get a life".

Your comments have hit rock bottom tb and I see no point in arguing with you any more, so I won't. I won't even comment on your "facts" and "truths" anymore.

But posting absolute lies and bs like ..........."the truth is that Thaksin and the red shirts are not the same thing."............ will get you nowhere, except a reputation of trolling liar.

The fact is if it were not for Thaksin the redshirts would have been just a distant memory, not a deadly terrorist organisation. And if it were not for the redshirts Thaksin would have just started another private army of thugs to do his dirty work.

you have no clue, do you?

Please, continue to live in your blind little bubble of Thaksin hate.

He's no angel, but he's not the real problem.

Thaksin is not the real problem - and nor is he the solution. He cannot even be part of the solution as his greed and ego fueled persona wouldn't allow it.

[jayboy]

Baerboxer I have sympathy with the frustration of your family/friends.But one key point not mentioned which is relevant for those who have given up on PTP is the inability of the Democrats to reform themselves and appeal to a broader constituency.Unless they do so the concern is that when democracy returns there will just be another Thaksinite party in the forefront.The junta is aware of this and thus looking to rig the constitution.But wouldn't it be better to have a powerful Democrat party with fresh leadership, shorn of thugs like Suthep, and appealing to a broad Thai constituency?

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Baerboxer I have sympathy with the frustration of your family/friends.But one key point not mentioned which is relevant for those who have given up on PTP is the inability of the Democrats to reform themselves and appeal to a broader constituency.Unless they do so the concern is that when democracy returns there will just be another Thaksinite party in the forefront.The junta is aware of this and thus looking to rig the constitution.But wouldn't it be better to have a powerful Democrat party with fresh leadership, shorn of thugs like Suthep, and appealing to a broad Thai constituency?

Jayboy to some extend I agree with your comments about the dems and like many Thai friends I'm hoping the reforms encourage / spark many highly capable and genuine and honest Thais to get involved and start new parties.

I note you just deflect rather than make a direct response to the many very good and very powerful points baerboxer made.

I add one point to baerboxer's comment; never once, repeat never once, has the shin machine (some 12 years or so) every mentioned, discussed or attempted to take before parliament an overriding policy which would ensure all future laws and initiatives must contribute and be obvious to contribute to building a situation, with haste, where many many Thai folks had the capability and the opportunity to raise their standard of living several steps through their own productivity.

Edited April 6, 2015 by scorecard

[Fat Haggis]

I just love it when anti junta= red supporter Thainess from farangs with no say anyway at its best!!

It's like saying because you're don't like beer, you must love whisky!!

[Fat Haggis]

Got just about every extreme right wing, junta loving tv contributor to comment, but offer zero rebuttal, all in the same thread.

But the truth is in the answers -

Who has won every election this century?

Who wants to make merit in commemoration of their fellow travelers who were killed/murdered in 2010?

Who overthrew democracy 11 months ago?

Is section 44 of the interim constitution pro freedom and pro democracy?

​Maybe you can all stop practicing your goosestepping for long enough to offer some answers and I must say that I'm touched to have all the fascists on the long line at the one time

Indeed, you are probably touched if you really believe any of the Shin owned parties were interested in democracy, or improving the plight of the poor.

Despite all their constant assertions of both, their actions, showed otherwise. Simply a new gang who, not content with a big share, wanted it all for themselves.

They were, and to a degree still are, at convincing some people that all the nepotism, cronyism, corruption, lies, cheating and worse that usually accompanies them is acceptable because really, they will change things for the better. After so many years of making they got rich themselves, the penny is finally dropping.

My wife and many of her old Uni friends all supported PTP in the 2011 elections. Why - they all still passionately want a real democracy, with a much fairer society, with real improvements in education and opportunities for the poor; and a just society with one rule of law for all, without bias and favor. They wanted a reduction in corruption, lies and ineffective government. They believed Yingluck could have been the "breath of fresh air", a woman, young and full of energy and determined to push through the changes.

How bitterly disappointed they now are. They feel betrayed - how she simply turned power over to her criminal fugitive brother who simply carried on in his self enriching corrupt ways, doing very little and delivering even less in the form of change or real benefits to the country and the poor. The lies, which became increasingly outrageous, they considered an insult. The final straw was the Amnesty whitewash Thaksin bill. They were not only angered by the fact a criminal fugitive was running a government, and trying to simply whitewash all crimes and charges, but also by the dubious way PTP were doing it; ignoring parliamentary procedure and illegally making amendments. Then Yingluck lying, again, about the bill being withdrawn. So much time, energy and cost wasted - all for one man's benefit. So, all these former PTP voters went and joined the initial mass protests. As did most of my children's friends' parents and neighbors.

Now their problem is, they have no one to vote for, should / when / if a new election is held. They have zero trust in PTP or any party that is owned, controlled, or influenced by the Shin family. Sadly, there just isn't anyone filling the role they want, nor even more sadly as there ever been,

Opposing the corrupt self enriching PTP / Shin family political party or their red shirt private militia and terrorist wing does not mean people are right wing, fascist, or supporters of the current government. That's the game Shin PR and their supporters try to play in perpetuating and growing the myth that Shin owned parties are pro-democratic, socially minded, working class supporting parties.

Maybe you can stop pretending long enough realize that those who do nothing to prevent attacks on their opponents or apprehend the culprits; and who openly applaud and cheer the murder of children, are not likely to be particularly interested in real democracy.

And neither you, or your wife's or her friends had any inkling what so ever that Thaksin would NOT be pulling strings, in any shape or form mate?

That's a bit like having a pet scorpion and saying it doesn't sting when you rub its back, Thaksin and his type cannot step away from the power thirst they have, and the General is behaving in a similar manner, if you honestly believe that the country will be handed back to the people, once the General steps down within the next 12 months without having any reservations or misgivings then you and your wife and her friends are all going to be dissapointed once again.

Just out of curiosity did they get paid to vote and that had no sway in their opinions, or did they vote based on their own beliefs that PTP could have done good for the country as they were not voting for Yingluck but the PTP.

How do you feel when there are people here that accused many red voters of supporting terrorism and terrorist when you have openly confirmed your wife and her friends political belief at that time?

Why do you never support what your wife and her friends believed in by denouncing those who call anyone who voted PTP as terrorist supporters sir?

[laubau]

I just love it when anti junta= red supporter Thainess from farangs with no say anyway at its best!!

It's like saying because you're don't like beer, you must love whisky!!

Pretty simplistic analogy, fat boy but I expect these kind of views from junta = yellow supporters. You blow smoke, Haggis! I as a farang have more say than most after 35 years in Thailand because my wife and children are Thai. I have GREAT influence over our family and our numerous friends in Esaan. Have a clue!!!!

[jayboy]

Scorecard responding to one point is not deflection.It is also in my view a key issue.The excesses of Thaksin and his immense electoral success is as much about the dismal failure of the Democrats and their disgraced leadership to respond effectively.

[lewy67]

Got just about every extreme right wing, junta loving tv contributor to comment, but offer zero rebuttal, all in the same thread.

But the truth is in the answers -

Who has won every election this century?

Who wants to make merit in commemoration of their fellow travelers who were killed/murdered in 2010?

Who overthrew democracy 11 months ago?

Is section 44 of the interim constitution pro freedom and pro democracy?

​Maybe you can all stop practicing your goosestepping for long enough to offer some answers and I must say that I'm touched to have all the fascists on the long line at the one time

Indeed, you are probably touched if you really believe any of the Shin owned parties were interested in democracy, or improving the plight of the poor.

Despite all their constant assertions of both, their actions, showed otherwise. Simply a new gang who, not content with a big share, wanted it all for themselves.

They were, and to a degree still are, at convincing some people that all the nepotism, cronyism, corruption, lies, cheating and worse that usually accompanies them is acceptable because really, they will change things for the better. After so many years of making they got rich themselves, the penny is finally dropping.

My wife and many of her old Uni friends all supported PTP in the 2011 elections. Why - they all still passionately want a real democracy, with a much fairer society, with real improvements in education and opportunities for the poor; and a just society with one rule of law for all, without bias and favor. They wanted a reduction in corruption, lies and ineffective government. They believed Yingluck could have been the "breath of fresh air", a woman, young and full of energy and determined to push through the changes.

How bitterly disappointed they now are. They feel betrayed - how she simply turned power over to her criminal fugitive brother who simply carried on in his self enriching corrupt ways, doing very little and delivering even less in the form of change or real benefits to the country and the poor. The lies, which became increasingly outrageous, they considered an insult. The final straw was the Amnesty whitewash Thaksin bill. They were not only angered by the fact a criminal fugitive was running a government, and trying to simply whitewash all crimes and charges, but also by the dubious way PTP were doing it; ignoring parliamentary procedure and illegally making amendments. Then Yingluck lying, again, about the bill being withdrawn. So much time, energy and cost wasted - all for one man's benefit. So, all these former PTP voters went and joined the initial mass protests. As did most of my children's friends' parents and neighbors.

Now their problem is, they have no one to vote for, should / when / if a new election is held. They have zero trust in PTP or any party that is owned, controlled, or influenced by the Shin family. Sadly, there just isn't anyone filling the role they want, nor even more sadly as there ever been,

Opposing the corrupt self enriching PTP / Shin family political party or their red shirt private militia and terrorist wing does not mean people are right wing, fascist, or supporters of the current government. That's the game Shin PR and their supporters try to play in perpetuating and growing the myth that Shin owned parties are pro-democratic, socially minded, working class supporting parties.

Maybe you can stop pretending long enough realize that those who do nothing to prevent attacks on their opponents or apprehend the culprits; and who openly applaud and cheer the murder of children, are not likely to be particularly interested in real democracy.

Yes it does Box. You are supporting a government that was born from a military coup as opposed to a government from an election. The generals seized power at the point of a gun and suspended human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of movement and introduced martial law and its sprog, section 44. You prefer that to the elected government and are therefore in my book and by political definition a supporter of fascism.

And if your Mrs wants a decent party to vote for then democracy needs to be able to evolve as it has done in the west. Evolution would/will weed out the corrupt and incompetent like the Thaksins, Suthep, Chalerm, Korn and Abhisit. But this will never be allowed to happen while those that you support in the military and the elite pull the strings.

[Fat Haggis]

I just love it when anti junta= red supporter Thainess from farangs with no say anyway at its best!!

It's like saying because you're don't like beer, you must love whisky!!

Pretty simplistic analogy, fat boy but I expect these kind of views from junta = yellow supporters. You blow smoke, Haggis! I as a farang have more say than most after 35 years in Thailand because my wife and children are Thai. I have GREAT influence over our family and our numerous friends in Esaan. Have a clue!!!!

Oh but Is do have a clue, I too have a Thai wife, but I bow down to your taking 35 years in country to have influence over your wife and family it must make you feel awesome ;-)

If my wife wanted to vote for Ronald MacDonald that's HER choice, why should I try to change her mind? It's up to her, if I wanted to vote for one of the Ninja turtles that's my choice, there's is a HUGE difference between having influence and exerting pressure on people to accept your way is the only way ;-)

I prefer it when my wife is so adamant her way is the only way and it doesn't work, and I say " not my fault darling, you didn't want my advice or my opinion "

Well done for your post, was there actually a point you were trying to make?

Do you have a vote in Thailand by the way ?

[ballpoint]

Baerboxer I have sympathy with the frustration of your family/friends.But one key point not mentioned which is relevant for those who have given up on PTP is the inability of the Democrats to reform themselves and appeal to a broader constituency.Unless they do so the concern is that when democracy returns there will just be another Thaksinite party in the forefront.The junta is aware of this and thus looking to rig the constitution.But wouldn't it be better to have a powerful Democrat party with fresh leadership, shorn of thugs like Suthep, and appealing to a broad Thai constituency?

I'll see your Suthep and raise you with Chalerm, Chavalit, Banharn, Samak (deceased, but firmly in the Thaksin camp when around), et al. No doubt you could come back with other members of the Democrat Party, which is the whole point I'm making: Since when has having a thug in the leadership team been seen as a disadvantage in Thai politics? If anything, the group with the most thugs has always won. Like it or not, many of the rural population vote for the local strongman and his cronies, no matter what party they happen to be a member of - look at Newin, his BJT party still has a stronghold in Buri Ram despite him changing sides more often than a man on a flea ridden mattress. These strongmen have traditionally ruled their provinces in pretty much the same way that Thaksin ruled the whole country; namely, take much, give a few crumbs back, and keep the people poorly educated; living on subsistance, in fear of change, and greatful for whatever pathetic handouts come their way. A guaranteed way of getting voted in year after year.

The most telling thing about Thaksin is that he did nothing at all to reduce the influence these thugs have in their rural strongholds. He actually cemented the position of many, aligning with them and buying out their parties right from the start. And, if you ask me, the only reason Suthep isn't in there with the others is that Thaksin had no need of the South. It's not that he was repulsed by Suthep, just that the North and Northeast combined have the majority of the population which was all he needed. No doubt I'll get flamed for making this comparison, but the poorly educated, shiney-shiney-worshipping cargo culture of rural Thailand can be likened to a country giving the vote to children. If they form the majority of the population, then the party giving out the most toys and ice cream will always win, leaving the adults to pay for those toys and icecream while futiley voting for a more responsible party.

[Ricardo]

What these one track right wing foreigners can never explain is why the people of Thailand after 2010 gave the political party associated with the red shirts a resounding victory at the polls.

If I might respond, without in-any-way accepting the label of being one of those you call "one track right wing foreigners" ?

The "resounding victory" of 48.4%, of those who did bother to vote, was perhaps influenced by a number of promises, including :

- that "all Thais will be rich", six months later

- that all schoolchildren would have a Samsung-laptop, like Yingluck's

- that the poor rice-farmers would get B15k per tonne for their rice

- that the minimum-wage would immediately be raised substantially

Unfortunately these turned out to be "merely election promises", as former-PM Samak (?) memorably put it.

There was also definitely a punishment-vote against the Dems & Abhisit, for the events of 2009 & 2010, even though he was pretty tolerant of the attempted soft-coup by the UDD, some do say tolerant to a fault.

And I wonder, but we'll probably never know, what reduction in the PTP-vote might have been delivered, in the attempted-election of February-2014 ?

The poor rice-farmers had by then seen the failure of the rice-scheme, and the collapse of the other policies, also that Yingluck was photogenic but not perhaps what they'd hoped in 2011 she might be.

[mikemac]

Kind of logical.The same people who killed civilian demonstrators now banning remembrance celebrations.

I see where you are going with this jayboy and for the life of me cannot see how you can describe heavily armed, violent terrorists as being "civilian demonstrators".

Those "civilian demonstrators" who were not armed and attacking the army should not have been where they were, or were used as human shields which is just plain wrong.

You make it sound like the army just executed peaceful, unarmed demonstrators as they were walking down the street, which is definitely not the case.

You call it "kind of logical", much like the way the PTP treated the country over the rice scam.

[laubau]

I just love it when anti junta= red supporter Thainess from farangs with no say anyway at its best!!

It's like saying because you're don't like beer, you must love whisky!!

Pretty simplistic analogy, fat boy but I expect these kind of views from junta = yellow supporters. You blow smoke, Haggis! I as a farang have more say than most after 35 years in Thailand because my wife and children are Thai. I have GREAT influence over our family and our numerous friends in Esaan. Have a clue!!!!

Oh but Is do have a clue, I too have a Thai wife, but I bow down to your taking 35 years in country to have influence over your wife and family it must make you feel awesome ;-)

If my wife wanted to vote for Ronald MacDonald that's HER choice, why should I try to change her mind? It's up to her, if I wanted to vote for one of the Ninja turtles that's my choice, there's is a HUGE difference between having influence and exerting pressure on people to accept your way is the only way ;-)

I prefer it when my wife is so adamant her way is the only way and it doesn't work, and I say " not my fault darling, you didn't want my advice or my opinion "

Well done for your post, was there actually a point you were trying to make?

Do you have a vote in Thailand by the way ?

You are not able to figure out that my point was showing how simplistic and narrow minded that your post was? This is the only way your voice can be heard regardless of how you handle voting with your wife, etc. Indirectly, I actually do have more than one vote as explained earlier. Read and comprehend, big boy! ...nothing more need be said!!

[mikemac]

Baerboxer I have sympathy with the frustration of your family/friends.But one key point not mentioned which is relevant for those who have given up on PTP is the inability of the Democrats to reform themselves and appeal to a broader constituency.Unless they do so the concern is that when democracy returns there will just be another Thaksinite party in the forefront.The junta is aware of this and thus looking to rig the constitution.But wouldn't it be better to have a powerful Democrat party with fresh leadership, shorn of thugs like Suthep, and appealing to a broad Thai constituency?

I'll see your Suthep and raise you with Chalerm, Chavalit, Banharn, Samak (deceased, but firmly in the Thaksin camp when around), et al. No doubt you could come back with other members of the Democrat Party, which is the whole point I'm making: Since when has having a thug in the leadership team been seen as a disadvantage in Thai politics? If anything, the group with the most thugs has always won. Like it or not, many of the rural population vote for the local strongman and his cronies, no matter what party they happen to be a member of - look at Newin, his BJT party still has a stronghold in Buri Ram despite him changing sides more often than a man on a flea ridden mattress. These strongmen have traditionally ruled their provinces in pretty much the same way that Thaksin ruled the whole country; namely, take much, give a few crumbs back, and keep the people poorly educated; living on subsistance, in fear of change, and greatful for whatever pathetic handouts come their way. A guaranteed way of getting voted in year after year.

The most telling thing about Thaksin is that he did nothing at all to reduce the influence these thugs have in their rural strongholds. He actually cemented the position of many, aligning with them and buying out their parties right from the start. And, if you ask me, the only reason Suthep isn't in there with the others is that Thaksin had no need of the South. It's not that he was repulsed by Suthep, just that the North and Northeast combined have the majority of the population which was all he needed. No doubt I'll get flamed for making this comparison, but the poorly educated, shiney-shiney-worshipping cargo culture of rural Thailand can be likened to a country giving the vote to children. If they form the majority of the population, then the party giving out the most toys and ice cream will always win, leaving the adults to pay for those toys and icecream while futiley voting for a more responsible party.

Well put ballpoint.

Seems the only name they have to cry when they play the "thug / bad guy" card is - "but, but Suthep" !

Edited April 6, 2015 by mikemac

[scorecard]

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What these one track right wing foreigners can never explain is why the people of Thailand after 2010 gave the political party associated with the red shirts a resounding victory at the polls.

If I might respond, without in-any-way accepting the label of being one of those you call "one track right wing foreigners" ?

The "resounding victory" of 48.4%, of those who did bother to vote, was perhaps influenced by a number of promises, including :

- that "all Thais will be rich", six months later

- that all schoolchildren would have a Samsung-laptop, like Yingluck's

- that the poor rice-farmers would get B15k per tonne for their rice

- that the minimum-wage would immediately be raised substantially

Unfortunately these turned out to be "merely election promises", as former-PM Samak (?) memorably put it.

There was also definitely a punishment-vote against the Dems & Abhisit, for the events of 2009 & 2010, even though he was pretty tolerant of the attempted soft-coup by the UDD, some do say tolerant to a fault.

And I wonder, but we'll probably never know, what reduction in the PTP-vote might have been delivered, in the attempted-election of February-2014 ?

The poor rice-farmers had by then seen the failure of the rice-scheme, and the collapse of the other policies, also that Yingluck was photogenic but not perhaps what they'd hoped in 2011 she might be.

On a point of correction, the quote with my name above it 'scorecard' is in fact not written by me, not at all.

[mikemac]

I just love it when anti junta= red supporter Thainess from farangs with no say anyway at its best!!

It's like saying because you're don't like beer, you must love whisky!!

Pretty simplistic analogy, fat boy but I expect these kind of views from junta = yellow supporters. You blow smoke, Haggis! I as a farang have more say than most after 35 years in Thailand because my wife and children are Thai. I have GREAT influence over our family and our numerous friends in Esaan. Have a clue!!!!

Oh but Is do have a clue, I too have a Thai wife, but I bow down to your taking 35 years in country to have influence over your wife and family it must make you feel awesome ;-)

If my wife wanted to vote for Ronald MacDonald that's HER choice, why should I try to change her mind? It's up to her, if I wanted to vote for one of the Ninja turtles that's my choice, there's is a HUGE difference between having influence and exerting pressure on people to accept your way is the only way ;-)

I prefer it when my wife is so adamant her way is the only way and it doesn't work, and I say " not my fault darling, you didn't want my advice or my opinion "

Well done for your post, was there actually a point you were trying to make?

Do you have a vote in Thailand by the way ?

I tried that Fatty, saying " not my fault darling, you didn't want my advice or my opinion ", and it didn't work. Still ended up being my fault.

Getting back to the op, I found this line interesting if not ironic -

"Red shirt leader Nattawut Saikua said his group's objective in meeting the Department of Special Investigation on Tuesday was to ensure that the probe into the crackdown would continue in a transparent and fair manner."

Are these reds for real ? Do they honestly think that because they gather in large, intimidating numbers, preach violence and wave guns around that there is one set of laws for them and one for the rest of the country ? Since when has anything the reds ever done been conducted "in a transparent and fair manner" ???

[Ricardo]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

On a point of correction, the quote with my name above it 'scorecard' is in fact not written by me, not at all.

My apologies, I was responding to post #51 in this thread, which had appeared to be made by you.

If it wasn't, then perhaps you should report it to the mods ?

[Fat Haggis]

I just love it when anti junta= red supporter Thainess from farangs with no say anyway at its best!!

It's like saying because you're don't like beer, you must love whisky!!

Pretty simplistic analogy, fat boy but I expect these kind of views from junta = yellow supporters. You blow smoke, Haggis! I as a farang have more say than most after 35 years in Thailand because my wife and children are Thai. I have GREAT influence over our family and our numerous friends in Esaan. Have a clue!!!!

Oh but Is do have a clue, I too have a Thai wife, but I bow down to your taking 35 years in country to have influence over your wife and family it must make you feel awesome ;-)

If my wife wanted to vote for Ronald MacDonald that's HER choice, why should I try to change her mind? It's up to her, if I wanted to vote for one of the Ninja turtles that's my choice, there's is a HUGE difference between having influence and exerting pressure on people to accept your way is the only way ;-)

I prefer it when my wife is so adamant her way is the only way and it doesn't work, and I say " not my fault darling, you didn't want my advice or my opinion "

Well done for your post, was there actually a point you were trying to make?

Do you have a vote in Thailand by the way ?

You are not able to figure out that my point was showing how simplistic and narrow minded that your post was? This is the only way your voice can be heard regardless of how you handle voting with your wife, etc. Indirectly, I actually do have more than one vote as explained earlier. Read and comprehend, big boy! ...nothing more need be said!!

Actually big boy if you've followed my postings on here I'm far from narrow minded, that was me having a go at those farangs who do see it as anti junta= red shirt, pro junta= yellow shirt as you put it yourself.

I'm not really wanting my voice heard as ainhave nothing to complain about, there's been no change to my life in the Kingdom over the past few years, apart from my wifes spending habits.

I have maintained that the majority of farangs here have no say and cannot influence Thai politics il unless they have a vote personally, the difference between you and I is that you've been here longer and seem to control your famiky the way you want, me? Just like being back in the UK I wouldn't dream of intefering in any of my families choices of how they vote, that's down to them, not down to me, if Impossed my will on them that to me is not far off bullying and intimidation.

There's a big difference if you all agree and have the same principals and ideology and beliefs, freedom of choice big boy, freedom of choice ?

[tonbridgebrit]

Soon be over now......Red shirts - Taksin's drones - mindless - greedy - self -serving like their master.

Taksin's dirty Rice Scam destroyed the foundations of the so called red-shirt movement - after that - exposed by the farmers themselves - the rot and corruption became too evident.

Time now for the ordinary country folk to rise up against these would be masters of the poor and put them DOWN finally - permanently.

Yes, yes, and once Thaksin has been removed, well, Thailand can then have a general election. And Abhisit and the Democrats are going to win. What's so important about a general election ??

Well, once we've had a general election, then, then Thailand can get back in with America and the European Union. No need for Thailand to move towards China. Now then, that's what people on ThaiVisa want, right ?

A Thailand that is a democracy, with a vote, a Thailand back in with America and Europe, and not moving towards China. Yeah, let's get it on !!!!

[metisdead]

Posts using derogatory nicknames or intentional misspelling of people’s names will be removed. If you don’t want your post to be removed, spell people’s names correctly.

[WhizBang]

I would say that the chances of the Red Shirts getting permission to remind everyone of their failed soft coup attempt are somewhere between 'Slim' and none and last I heard, 'Slim' just left town. They are still playing the sympathy card. The same one Ms. Yingluck is playing. You don't try to overthrow a legitimate government with an armed mob and taking over the main retail area of Bangkok and then cry when you are ousted after, how long was it? Oh, yeah, three months; especially when the then PM Abhisit offered early elections which is supposedly what they gathered for in the first place.

a misinterpretation of the truth if ever there was one

Ahhh, a new red shirt poster (or an old one under a new name).

Welcome comrade. It must be a terrible thing to realize that your day is done.

[tbthailand]

the truth is that Thaksin and the red shirts are not the same thing.

the truth is that the red shirts are the ONLY group in Thailand who consistently call for democracy.

the truth is that in 2010 the red shirts were protesting against a military-installed government.

those are facts, so to use your words, "get a life".

After his ouster in 2006, he (Thaksin) began employing (paying) his Moaist led, Marxist indoctrinated mob simply called the “red shirts.” Officially they are called the UDD or the National United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship. The cogs at work here are best explained by Therdpoum Chaidee, a former communist and colleague of current UDD protest leaders, as well as a member of parliament under Thaksin’s now defunct Thai Rak Thai party.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

http://www.infowars.com/thailands-thaksin-shinwatra-marxists-and-the-nwo/

I hope it's ignorance on your part and you are not a Thaksin propagandist. From reading your past posts though, I have a suspicion you are a Thaksin propagandists. With all the links supplied to rebut your substantiated claims I find it difficult to believe anyone can be so willfully ignorant of the connection between Thaksin and the UDD/Red Shirts. He chose their leadership and paid their salaries. He paid for the Red Shirts to come to shut down Bangkok and paid them a daily rate to stay. He made nightly speeches broadcast, from who knows where, exhorting them to fight for 'democracy' which is Red Shirt lingo for a Thaksin dictatorship. You are correct that Thaksin and the Red Shirts are not the same thing; one is the boss and the others are soldiers following the boss's orders. Yes, the Red Shirts consistently call for 'democracy' but they have been told that democracy is simply the tyranny of the majority. Ask a Red Shirt what democracy is and he/she cannot tell you. Here is some of what was said on a nightly basis on the Red Shirt stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqZ6ejEbcPo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K6bGlnirgk

From reading your past posts though, I have a suspicion you are a Thaksin propagandists.

I think that it is pretty clear from what I have said here during my time that I don't care about Thaksin. He's not the problem. He's just a player - sure, he is an important (or was) player over the last 15 years, but he is neither the source of all ills in Thailand nor a significant factor in the long-term future of Thailand - that honor belongs to the military institution/elite allies and social movements toward greater democracy, respectively. So, with all due respect, you might want to watch more closely what I say about Thaksin. I think you haven't understood my opinion of the man. (btw, he clearly understood/understands where the real power in Thailand lies. While he was PM he clearly did his best to make sure that the military as an institution would be an ally and not an enemy. He did not succeed, but he was trying like he11)

As for being a paid propagandist, well, all I can say is that I am very familiar with the sources that you link to and I can't take the accusation of "paid propagandist" very seriously. There are many paid propagandists out there and you linked to a couple. Good job

Seriously, it's not my job to change your opinion, but IMO, you would do well to search out a much much wider range of information. There is good and bad in any organization, and such is the case with the red shirts. The red shirts still remain to this day the only social movement in Thailand which consistently calls for democracy and elections.

he is neither the source of all ills in Thailand

Straw Man argument as no one says he is the source of ALL the ills in Thailand; just the Red Shirt mob and associated violence.

As for being a paid propagandist

Another Straw Man as I never said you were paid or even hinted at it.

I can't take the accusation of "paid propagandist" very seriously.

Here you falsely quote me. How dishonest are you willing to be in your arguments?

it's not my job to change your opinion

I'm not expecting you to try to change my opinion as what you call 'my opinion' are documented facts that disprove your untrue statements in the post I replied to.

The red shirts still remain to this day the only social movement in Thailand which consistently calls for democracy and elections.

The ONLY group? The Red Shirts, from their public statements, wouldn't know what democracy was if it bit them on the ass. Thaksin himself is famous for saying democracy was not his goal and the Red Shirts are his followers who believe every utterance from their hero.

You should probably stop now as you are looking more and more ridiculous.

You should probably stop now as you are looking more and more ridiculous.

keep going, Ram ...

ah, so I did quote your correctly, 'thaksin propagandist" but then mis-wrote it myself and said, "paid propagandist - that was my fault. Sorry 'bout that but just replace "paid" with "Thaksin" and let my post stand...

he is neither the source of all ills in Thailand

Straw Man argument as no one says he is the source of ALL the ills in Thailand; just the Red Shirt mob and associated violence.

well, it actually was just part of a statement that I made to point out that he is not that important to the past or future of Thailand... and it was not an "argument" - strawman or other - at all. But what ever floats your both. The point is still the same - Thaksin has been on the scene for some 20 years of a 'situation' that has been rolling along since 1932... please re-read what that sentence actually is saying... it's not about Thaksin. But you and others have a hard time seeing that.

YOU are the one (along with Mikemac and others) who believe, incorrectly, that Thaksin controls every move of the red shirts. They are not one and the same - and yes, that is a true statement even if Mikemac calls it a lie - he has no clue. If you feel the same, then neither do you, frankly...

now we come to...

it's not my job to change your opinion

I'm not expecting you to try to change my opinion as what you call 'my opinion' are documented facts that disprove your untrue statements in the post I replied to.

and my statements which were:

1. the truth is that Thaksin and the red shirts are not the same thing.
2. the truth is that the red shirts are the ONLY group in Thailand who consistently call for democracy.
3. the truth is that in 2010 the red shirts were protesting against a military-installed government.

all three are demonstrably true and your only response has been ranting and links from people like Cartalucci - come on, get real! Cartalucci?? Please, ...

Again, you need to seriously expand your sources of information, ... we probably will never ever agree, but at least then, there might be something to discuss.

[Fat Haggis]

Maybe he is cartalucci?

[tbthailand]

Kind of logical.The same people who killed civilian demonstrators now banning remembrance celebrations.

I see where you are going with this jayboy and for the life of me cannot see how you can describe heavily armed, violent terrorists as being "civilian demonstrators".

Those "civilian demonstrators" who were not armed and attacking the army should not have been where they were, or were used as human shields which is just plain wrong.

You make it sound like the army just executed peaceful, unarmed demonstrators as they were walking down the street, which is definitely not the case.

You call it "kind of logical", much like the way the PTP treated the country over the rice scam.

You make it sound like the army just executed peaceful, unarmed demonstrators as they were walking down the street, which is definitely not the case.

no, they were hiding in a safe-haven known as a Wat... among other places.

really, people around here are so blinkered, you would think that it was the red shirts who had the tanks... (intentional hyperbole )

[ianf]

.............."Red shirt leader Nattawut Saikua said his group's objective in meeting the Department of Special Investigation on Tuesday was to ensure that the probe into the crackdown would continue in a transparent and fair manner.".........................

Sick and tired of hearing about the "crackdown" on the actions of armed terrorists who used innocent yet naive citizens as human shields. Entering the city and holding it to ransom breaking every law in the book, attacking the army and expecting to get away with it because they were "peaceful protesters".

In an other country it would have gone on for nowhere near 3 months and the fatality rate would have been much higher.

How about going to the root of the problem and probing the one/s who organized and funded this terrible display of spite and revenge ?

The redshirts have never done anything good for Thailand, only caused death and destruction of public and private property. They should be banned along with any other "shirt wearing" political protesters who use violence to further their gains.

Absolutely spot on Mike. Such an erudite post. It's nice to read such a straightforward opinion after being harangued by tbthailand who simply cannot see the wider picture and has no understanding of mass psychology.

Edited April 6, 2015 by ianf