Water Filter Blues

[Sheryl]

I really hope someone here can shed some light on this.

My water is from an artesian well and very hard, with lots of iron and/or managanese and calcium (never been tested- I base this on visible lime scale and reddish staining).

For more than 15 years I had a British Portacel whole house filter, 2 units one carbon & 1 resin, which worked pretty well. I still got lime scale , but at least could shower comfortably, wash clothes and dishes etc. (I use rain water through a countertop carbon filter for drinking so that has never been the issue. It's getting the water soft enough to bathe, wash clothes and dishes etc and reducing limescale build up and red/brown water stains that I am after). The filter units were steel and over time corroded so I had to replace it. Which is where the "fun" began.

First I purchased a 3 unit (sediment, carbon and resin) filter made by Masterpure that had cartridges rather than loose filter media. The sediment filter clearly helps in removing the reddish stain but the water coming out was every bit as hard as going in, and cleaning the cartridges produced no visible dirt or sludge. My impression was that the water went through way too fast and had insufficient contact time with the filter media. I complained to the company and at my request they switched the resin cartridge filter with a much larger tank that holds 50 kg loose resin. I had selected one made by a different company but prior to delivery they called and insisted it was unavailable so again, made by Masterpure (model M4) but from the looks of it and the amount of resin it contains, seemed like it should work.

However, it does not - water comes out still as hard as it went in, so far as I can tell. Both with and without the filter it is showing the maximum alkalinity (240 ppm) and pH (8.4) on my test strips. Since the strips don't measure beyond 240/8.4 I suppose it is possible that it is even harder going in and improves somewhat, can't say, but in terms of using it is seems the same - skin feels like rubber bathing in it, have to use an excess amount of soap, can't rinse off properly, etc. etc.

I again complained and refused to pay for the new filter. The company has been useless in terms of coming up with any explanations or solution but has agreed to take the filter back. Which resolves my issue with them but still leaves me in need of a decent water softener. I can get some other brand resin tanks at HomePro but am worried it will be the same thing again and am frankly stumped as to why this is happening. The gauge of the PVC pipes connecting to the filter is very large compared to what my old filter system had and the water was obviously gushing through very, very fast so thinking this might be the issue I tried partially closing the valves so that it seeps through slowly. No change.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to what is going on here? Seems to me a 50 kg resin filter, whatever the brand, out to do something - my prior filter held only 20 kg. It is new resin but I regenerated it anyhow just in case -- no change.

The only things I can think of are:

1. Maybe for some reason (perhaps the dry season and dropping water table) the water has become so extremely hard that there is just no getting it to below 240 ppm alkalinity (i.e. it may be much, much higher going in - test strips don't go any higher, and the useless shop where I got the filter has failed to do any tests despite being given repeated samples). Is that possible despite a 50 kgresin filter?

2. Perhaps for some reason the water composition has changed and something is now in it causing the hardness that resin does not reduce. (Manganese???)

3. Perhaps the quality of the resin in the masterpure filter is poor. (Des resin come in different qualities?)

I'd appreciate thoughts on this. Also any suggestions of a company that would be helpful in dealing with this. There is not a single water filter company where I live (Prachinburi) nor any shops selling whole house filters other than HomePro where the staff are useless in terms of technical advice. (And yes, I tried every single shop selling water pumps in the provincial town. Nada). The shop I used initially (Pure) was in Rangsit, obviously do not want to use them again, but am open to any suggestions for places in Bangkok, Chachoengsao, or even Korat town or Pattaya. I realize getting the water tested should be the first step, just haven't been able to find any place that would do it.

At the moment I still have the 50 kg Masterpure resin filter as the company hasn't yet come to pick it up. If the problem could be just quality of resin I might try a switch of that first rather than go through having it disconnected and buying a new one that might or might not work. But I have no idea if that is a feasible explanation. Looks like any other resin to me. Or if I need a different filter media, such as birm, and if it can go into a filter unit made for resin and if I can find it, I might give that a try first - I really don't want to continue this cycle of having units installed that don't work, especially since the companies are all located some distance away from me and it takes time and hassle to get them to come back.

[Sheryl]

P.S I considered RO but as I understand it, for a whole house filter this would result in wasting a large amount of water, and water is scarce here in the dry season. To just attach RO to point of use I'd have to put it in at least 4 places (2 bathroom showers, kitchen sink and tap where I wash clothes) so huge hassle and expense.

[Sheryl]

P.P.S. given the difficulty I'm having finding anyplace that will test the water (my test strips just measure lakalinity and pH), is there anyplace here that sells test kits for well water?

[sappersrest]

PM sent to you.

[RichCor]

Do any of the local Universities around you do Water Testing (I'm told many do)?

[Sheryl]

No local universities out here that I know of.

[RichCor]

...?

Google Maps - Prachinburi University (search parameter, not a proper noun)

Ramkhamhaeng University

King Mongkut's University of Technology North Bangkok Prachin Buri Campus

Suan Dusit Rajabhat University Prachin Buri Campus

Rajamangala University of Technology Prachin Buri Campus

Petchaburi Phitthayalongkon Rajabhat University

Rajabhat Rajanagarindra University

Prachinburi Technical college

Prachin Buri Polytechnic College

Not saying any of them have Water Testing abilities, but one of them could probably make you a pretty mean robot, or office stapler.

Larger local municipality Water Department could probably test the water for you, or let you know how/where to send samples.
Local government offices have a Groundwater development department

Some larger hospitals can also test water, though I don't know what characteristics they test other than bacteriological.

I've read some tests run from 1000 - 15,000 baht, depending on what test types you're including.

A 2012 ThaiVisa post mentioned having water tested at a Science & Medical Research Center.

Drinking Water Testing

Started by TongueThaied , 2012-08-10 15:46

The thread also included this image of a test done in Bangkok:

[Sheryl]

Thanks. Walking into a university campus and trying to find the correct department to ask about water testing would involve a considerable amount of time, I think Bangkok company is the better idea. Will contact them.

[Sheryl]

Meanwhile I have been reading up and it appears from water appearance that I definitely have, in addition to calcium, a lot of iron and manganese. From what I read i would do best with both a birm filter (for the iron & manganese) and a resin filter. I can find a source for birm in Thailand, what I can't seem to find is a filter unit specifically for it. Does anyone know if birm can be used in a filter unit designed for resin?

(Greensand maganese filter media is more readily available than birm but the regeneration is a pain, hence my interest in birm. In either case, not clear on type of filter unit needed....and asking the folk at either HomePro or the company I originally used (PURE) is a waste of time)

[sometimewoodworker]

You do understand that a water filter and a water softener are very often different units?

In general water a softener (unless it is RO unit) will need back washing with salt on a regular basis to recharge the ion exchange media.

So if your unit doesn't need back washing it isn't a water softener, or if it does need it and you haven't back washed (usually about every 4 weeks) then the ion exchange media can't function properly.

[Sheryl]

I am well aware of the need to regenerate resin with brine. And all filter medias, inc. carbon, managnese etc, require backwashing. I am backwashing regularly. The unit and resin are brand new, but I have tried regenerating the resin anyway, to no effect.

I think I probably need to add a Brim or Maganese unit (preferrably Birm as it doesn't need regeneration) to deal with the iron and/or manganese.

Still wonder whether there are differences in resin quality, though. In the past I used Mazuma, the resin provided with the new filter is Filtek brand. Any thoughts on that, anyone?

I did a simple shake test with dishwashing liquid on samples of the water before and after filtration, it does bubble more when shaken in the filtered sample (having added same amounts of soap) so the resin is reducing the hardness, just not by enough.

[Anthony5]

I am well aware of the need to regenerate resin with brine. And all filter medias, inc. carbon, managnese etc, require backwashing. I am backwashing regularly. The unit and resin are brand new, but I have tried regenerating the resin anyway, to no effect.

I think I probably need to add a Brim or Maganese unit (preferrably Birm as it doesn't need regeneration) to deal with the iron and/or manganese.

Still wonder whether there are differences in resin quality, though. In the past I used Mazuma, the resin provided with the new filter is Filtek brand. Any thoughts on that, anyone?

I did a simple shake test with dishwashing liquid on samples of the water before and after filtration, it does bubble more when shaken in the filtered sample (having added same amounts of soap) so the resin is reducing the hardness, just not by enough.

The reason your Masterpure doesn't work is because it because there isn't enough resin in the tank and it isn't regenerated long enough, and you can't change the setting.

The 50kg of media you received isn't only resin but a mix of Resin, zeolite and gravel. It looks like it is Resin only because the lightest media sits on top in the buckets.

I remember from the unit I returned a few years ago that it will only flush the unit with brine, but doesn't allow it to soak for at least half an hour or more, which is necessary for the regeneration process.

The unit I had, they may have changed it in the mean time, had only 3 setting for regenerate, which was every day, every other day or maximum every 7 days. This makes that after the 3rd regeneration the water in the tank is pure water as all the salt has been dissolved and wasted already. So I calculated that to keep brine in the tank 365 days a year, I would need 1.2 Tonnes of salt.

Regenerating every 7 days doesn't makes sense of course, as now with my own designed filter the regeneration is every 75 days, and I test the water on hardness frequently. Even 75 days isn't necessary in my case but I do it anyway.

As for the return of your filter, they also agreed to take back my filter, then always delayed and after some time refused to answer the phone, so it took about 5 months until I got fed up and contacted OCPB. It then took a total of 48 hours for them to come pick up the unit, with refund cheque in hand, in which I had drilled a hole as reward for their honesty

Edited May 4, 2015 by Anthony5

[Sheryl]

Dear Anthony,

Thanks! I agree re the regeneration process, although mine is manual there was still no way to change the process which as you day, soes not let the brine sit. It also wastes enormous amounts of water.

Seems to have about 20 kg of actual resin, though, which is what the filter I have replaced it with (Mazuma) takes. Still wondering about the resin quality. (It had a 50 kg caapcity, about half of this stones & then resin on top. No good rerason to have so much stone, only needs a small layer if gravel).

I have been able to get them to take it back only because I never paid for it - the deal I struck (having switched it for a catridge resin filter that also did not work) was that I would pay only after it was installed, tested and found to work.

I will try a really long regeneration period with the Maauma as so far it, too, is not getting enough of the hardness out. It's a serious misery to bathe in this water and my skin is dry, itching and breaking out as a result.