Hungry beetles on lime trees

[The Deerhunter]

My wife has expanded her orchard operations into Lime trees and we have nearly 100 in concrete rings and more planned. We have a minor canker problem which we deal with blue copper based powder sprays but the one that we have found most difficult is the beetles that eat the lime tree leaves. These beetles seem to be all the same but in 5 or 6 colours from light green, grey, brown, mottled etc and are usually found in close proximity pairs and usually mounted, mating in concentrations from 2 to 20 or more on a bush. We were paying contractors to spray them but they were always back in force within 2 - 3 days. A waste of money. Different contractors, different sprays, sprays recommended by local suppliers all proved useless. I tried spraying them myself to reduce some of my wasted money and was horrified that as soon as the spray hit the trees anywhere, the beetles took flight and flew off but were back later, same or next day, apparently no worse for wear.

Co-incidentally we here having an ant problem and I was spraying the Lime tree trunks, trails and nests with a yellow 8 litre "home & garden sprayer" from Homepro, and CHAINDRITE, the Thai name for STEDFAST, an originally South African termite & ant killer which works brilliantly on the Red ants & fire ants that plague our area. In desperation I also sprayed a few beetles and they failed to respond, let alone fly away. It was as if they thought it was just rain. They just “crawled away from the rain” a bit. So, I sprayed a few trees experimentally and they remained beetle free for up to 3 weeks. I then sprayed the whole orchard and it has been most successful now for several months and I now spray the ant killer and copper oxide spray together with a wetting agent, every few weeks. My next experiment will be to reduce the dilution rate on Chaindrite as the bugs may not need the ant/termite nest concentration and I may get the same result with less product/money.

My reasons for this posting:

1. To help anyone who like me, has tried everything, found nothing works and needs a new idea.

2. To see if anyone has had genuine success with these beetles and has something else that actually works or is a cheaper product.

3. We are not cropping our limes yet so I have no fears about with-holding etc yet. But I do worry that my miracle spray might be inappropriate for what I am using it and seeking clarification from genuine experienced persons regarding advice on toxicity and eventual with-holding etc.

Note: I try to avoid spraying flowers to avoid killing bees obviously some flowers get sprayed, but the growth of new fruit seems to be unaffected or is even increasing, so far.

Comments please only from experienced persons with personal chemical qualifications or lime growing experience. And yes, I am interested in organic solutions but only if they actually work and do not rely on magic or complicated procedures. (i.e. Please, no optimistic "why don't you try.............") from people with no actual hands-on experience!

Edited April 30, 2015 by The Deerhunter

[soidog2]

I use cypermethrin (4 cc for 20L water) mixed with abamectin (60cc for 20L water) will get rid of the hard shell bugs.

Yes they fly away but end up dead, soak the trees and check the ground a couple of hour later.

Good for about a month, repeat regularly until you break the breeding cycle; than, only needed when the trees are flushing new leaves.

Leave the Chaindrite for the ants; do not use on trees.

Edited April 30, 2015 by soidog2

[Torrens54]

Beggars can't be Choosers, my DEER-old chap!

Just a tad picky about who you'll accept advice from, so despite the fact my wife has a degree in Horticulture and has offered a solution, I'm not prepared to pass it on to anyone with the high-handed attitude that you exhibit.

[oneday]

There are some truly organic solutions that may work very well, but I can't pass them on as you have forbidden it.

[The Deerhunter]

There are some truly organic solutions that may work very well, but I can't pass them on as you have forbidden it.

Deer ME! What a pity that you cannot understand that I AM interested in informed replies (including organics otherwise I would not have mentioned it). I have already been given a bottle of organic bug killer with incredibly complicated compounding recipe and it did nothing. I just want to avoid the people have nothing constructive to offer but who reply on anything and everything.

[xen]

You appear to have a pretty good grasp of horticulture - but the first step i would take is identify the beetle. You can't progress unless you know what it is. From the description i would guess Harlequin beetle

or does it look more like this ? the Broonze Orange bug. (stink beetle) they emit a nasty solution that stains the leaves and fruit for market and smells putrid )

Once identified then read up on the life cycle of the insect and spray when the insect is in the breeding stage with an appropriate spray. Most likely a systemic spray for sap suckers will be necessary , but it does mean the bark and fruit will transport a deadly chemical so strictly observe your withholding periods. . Look up Integrated pest Management for further information .and you find out how to save money and unnecessary use of chemical and often organic sprays will work very efficiently by knowing the right time in the life cycle to spray. By looking at the life cycle also take into account your location, weather conditions and micro climates and so on that may slightly alter the life cycle.

Also , what is the bird life like there in your area. If you are spraying indiscriminately and your neighbors are doing it too then a lot of the natural predators will be absent.

Edited May 1, 2015 by xen

[captnhoy]

I have no solution to offer and I read this because we have one single lime tree that seems to be doing very well and is pest free so far. I DO quite understand why you would set some guidelines on responses though unlike a couple of members who do not seem to understand the spirit in which you posted. Every OP on TV can well expect to be bashed for their post, no matter what that post is. by at least one person. What a sad social community.

[The Deerhunter]

Beggars can't be Choosers, my DEER-old chap!

Just a tad picky about who you'll accept advice from, so despite the fact my wife has a degree in Horticulture and has offered a solution, I'm not prepared to pass it on to anyone with the high-handed attitude that you exhibit.

Well Beggar me!!! I tried to make it obvious that your wife seems exactly the kind of person who may have the advice I seek.

High handed???? 1. I explain my circumstances. 2. I offer the results of my experiments. 3. I show concern for toxicity and with-holding concerns in my current regime. and then, 4. I ask for advice from (only) qualified people.

I just do not want idiots replying offering information that is not based on personal experience or or appropriate qualifications. (It is pretty common behaviour on this type of forums)

I thought we would all be interested in public health.

Dear oh Dear.

[Diddl]

Yes, I agree “captnhoy”, “What a sad social community” this is; unbelievable! I can’t understand why nothing is done about it when it spoils it for everyone.

“The Deerhunter”, I too have a small lime bush and have noticed that some leaves are being eaten. I don’t see any beetles though. I haven’t sprayed at all because of the health hazard so I would be very interested to know how you tackle the problem in the future. Thanking you in advance for keeping your findings up-to-date on this forum as I would like to know if there is any solution.

[mercman24]

a very concise and good first post, i totally concur with you,it was/is not hight handed, i have had similiar experiences, when one asks a question, and the reply starts with, "i don't know, but try this" yes been there done that mate. hope you get sorted soon

[mango66]

Beggars can't be Choosers, my DEER-old chap!

Just a tad picky about who you'll accept advice from, so despite the fact my wife has a degree in Horticulture and has offered a solution, I'm not prepared to pass it on to anyone with the high-handed attitude that you exhibit.

Well Beggar me!!! I tried to make it obvious that your wife seems exactly the kind of person who may have the advice I seek.

High handed???? 1. I explain my circumstances. 2. I offer the results of my experiments. 3. I show concern for toxicity and with-holding concerns in my current regime. and then, 4. I ask for advice from (only) qualified people.

I just do not want idiots replying offering information that is not based on personal experience or or appropriate qualifications. (It is pretty common behaviour on this type of forums)

I thought we would all be interested in public health.

Dear oh Dear.

i experianced,

cut the tree and problem is gone;

[maderaroja]

Take a large, plastic milk milk jug, or similar plastic jug; cut off the top just at the point that the jug widens out. Turn the top over into the bottom, so that it will act as a funnel. Tape it together and half fill with water and a couple spoonfuls of machine oil. Mount the jug on the trunk of the tree using your own imagination for method. The beetles will fall into the "funnel" and drown in the water-oil solution. Be sure to empty the jug as soon as it fills so that there is room for more to drown. Then, remount the jug on the trunk.

[sead]

Are they even eatable after all that spraying??

[maderaroja]

Are they even eatable after all that spraying??

No, the beetles are only edible if you don't spray them. You will need a bit of oil for stir frying, though.

[swisspete]

try " pyrethrum " used it on my lime and lemon threes back in autralia , it just killed them , we call them stinkbugs... nice product very natural ,google it good luck.

[The Deerhunter]

You appear to have a pretty good grasp of horticulture - but the first step i would take is identify the beetle. You can't progress unless you know what it is. From the description i would guess Harlequin beetle

or does it look more like this ? the Broonze Orange bug. (stink beetle) they emit a nasty solution that stains the leaves and fruit for market and smells putrid )

Once identified then read up on the life cycle of the insect and spray when the insect is in the breeding stage with an appropriate spray. Most likely a systemic spray for sap suckers will be necessary , but it does mean the bark and fruit will transport a deadly chemical so strictly observe your withholding periods. . Look up Integrated pest Management for further information .and you find out how to save money and unnecessary use of chemical and often organic sprays will work very efficiently by knowing the right time in the life cycle to spray. By looking at the life cycle also take into account your location, weather conditions and micro climates and so on that may slightly alter the life cycle.

Also , what is the bird life like there in your area. If you are spraying indiscriminately and your neighbors are doing it too then a lot of the natural predators will be absent.

Neither of the above. I did describe them Hard wing cases and various colours, two different greens, also grey, fawn brown & mottled. Always in pairs and almost always humping. They munch on leaves, not suck sap. They prefer the newest sweetest leaves near end of branches.

[The Deerhunter]

try " pyrethrum " used it on my lime and lemon threes back in autralia , it just killed them , we call them stinkbugs... nice product very natural ,google it good luck.

I have been considering pyrethrum. I do not think they are the same as your stinkbugs. Soidog2 called them hard shell bugs and they are certainly that. You gotta squeeze VERY hard to kill them. If I pick one up to kill it I ether grind it very hard into the dirt with my shoe or break it in half against it's hinge.

[The Deerhunter]

Take a large, plastic milk milk jug, or similar plastic jug; cut off the top just at the point that the jug widens out. Turn the top over into the bottom, so that it will act as a funnel. Tape it together and half fill with water and a couple spoonfuls of machine oil. Mount the jug on the trunk of the tree using your own imagination for method. The beetles will fall into the "funnel" and drown in the water-oil solution. Be sure to empty the jug as soon as it fills so that there is room for more to drown. Then, remount the jug on the trunk.

I am not too sure how that could possibly work. The lime bushes are small with lots of spikes & not much room to attach something like that. Also, the beetles live at the end of the branches, well out from the main stem, are very mobile & fly well. I am not sure what would persuade them to crawl down the "trunk" where we never see them and then "fall" into a funnel of machine oil & water. Also a lot of (painful) prickly work doing 100 trees with lots of unpleasant regular maintenance. With the rainy season starting we could have machine oil overflowing into the planter which would not be good for the trees. I guess I am not going to try that one at all. Thanks for the try though.

Edited May 1, 2015 by The Deerhunter

[The Deerhunter]

You appear to have a pretty good grasp of horticulture - but the first step i would take is identify the beetle. You can't progress unless you know what it is. From the description i would guess Harlequin beetle

or does it look more like this ? the Broonze Orange bug. (stink beetle) they emit a nasty solution that stains the leaves and fruit for market and smells putrid )

Once identified then read up on the life cycle of the insect and spray when the insect is in the breeding stage with an appropriate spray. Most likely a systemic spray for sap suckers will be necessary , but it does mean the bark and fruit will transport a deadly chemical so strictly observe your withholding periods. . Look up Integrated pest Management for further information .and you find out how to save money and unnecessary use of chemical and often organic sprays will work very efficiently by knowing the right time in the life cycle to spray. By looking at the life cycle also take into account your location, weather conditions and micro climates and so on that may slightly alter the life cycle.

Also , what is the bird life like there in your area. If you are spraying indiscriminately and your neighbors are doing it too then a lot of the natural predators will be absent.

Neither of the above. I did describe them Hard wing cases and various colours, two different greens, also grey, fawn brown & mottled. Always in pairs and almost always humping. They munch on leaves, not suck sap. They prefer the newest sweetest leaves near end of branches.

They look a bit like this

[louse1953]

Are you trying to kill bugs or people who eat you limes.

[maderaroja]

You appear to have a pretty good grasp of horticulture - but the first step i would take is identify the beetle. You can't progress unless you know what it is. From the description i would guess Harlequin beetle

or does it look more like this ? the Broonze Orange bug. (stink beetle) they emit a nasty solution that stains the leaves and fruit for market and smells putrid )

Once identified then read up on the life cycle of the insect and spray when the insect is in the breeding stage with an appropriate spray. Most likely a systemic spray for sap suckers will be necessary , but it does mean the bark and fruit will transport a deadly chemical so strictly observe your withholding periods. . Look up Integrated pest Management for further information .and you find out how to save money and unnecessary use of chemical and often organic sprays will work very efficiently by knowing the right time in the life cycle to spray. By looking at the life cycle also take into account your location, weather conditions and micro climates and so on that may slightly alter the life cycle.

Also , what is the bird life like there in your area. If you are spraying indiscriminately and your neighbors are doing it too then a lot of the natural predators will be absent.

Neither of the above. I did describe them Hard wing cases and various colours, two different greens, also grey, fawn brown & mottled. Always in pairs and almost always humping. They munch on leaves, not suck sap. They prefer the newest sweetest leaves near end of branches.

They look a bit like this

Next time that you are at the market, buy some loose tobacco in a bundle. Make a tea by putting it in a bucket in the sun covered with water. After a few days, draw off the water and use that for a spray.

[fredge45]

Take a large, plastic milk milk jug, or similar plastic jug; cut off the top just at the point that the jug widens out. Turn the top over into the bottom, so that it will act as a funnel. Tape it together and half fill with water and a couple spoonfuls of machine oil. Mount the jug on the trunk of the tree using your own imagination for method. The beetles will fall into the "funnel" and drown in the water-oil solution. Be sure to empty the jug as soon as it fills so that there is room for more to drown. Then, remount the jug on the trunk.

I am not too sure how that could possibly work. The lime bushes are small with lots of spikes & not much room to attach something like that. Also, the beetles live at the end of the branches, well out from the main stem, are very mobile & fly well. I am not sure what would persuade them to crawl down the "trunk" where we never see them and then "fall" into a funnel of machine oil & water. Also a lot of (painful) prickly work doing 100 trees with lots of unpleasant regular maintenance. With the rainy season starting we could have machine oil overflowing into the planter which would not be good for the trees. I guess I am not going to try that one at all. Thanks for the try though.

I can understand your reticence for having to do any real "work" to control these bug... far easier, for you, to just squirt and wait for them to fall! Please keep your limes out of the markets given the toxic swill with which you are filling them. No problem for me as I grow my own with no sprays.

[The Deerhunter]

Take a large, plastic milk milk jug, or similar plastic jug; cut off the top just at the point that the jug widens out. Turn the top over into the bottom, so that it will act as a funnel. Tape it together and half fill with water and a couple spoonfuls of machine oil. Mount the jug on the trunk of the tree using your own imagination for method. The beetles will fall into the "funnel" and drown in the water-oil solution. Be sure to empty the jug as soon as it fills so that there is room for more to drown. Then, remount the jug on the trunk.

I am not too sure how that could possibly work. The lime bushes are small with lots of spikes & not much room to attach something like that. Also, the beetles live at the end of the branches, well out from the main stem, are very mobile & fly well. I am not sure what would persuade them to crawl down the "trunk" where we never see them and then "fall" into a funnel of machine oil & water. Also a lot of (painful) prickly work doing 100 trees with lots of unpleasant regular maintenance. With the rainy season starting we could have machine oil overflowing into the planter which would not be good for the trees. I guess I am not going to try that one at all. Thanks for the try though.

I can understand your reticence for having to do any real "work" to control these bug... far easier, for you, to just squirt and wait for them to fall! Please keep your limes out of the markets given the toxic swill with which you are filling them. No problem for me as I grow my own with no sprays.

Thank you for sharing my concerns about toxicity As I originally posted, we are no where near ready to pick the limes for the market. We are not even picking them to eat ourselves yet. But, these bugs are a real problem. There can be up to many hundreds on our trees and they would just eat the leaves down to nothing with no action by us. I do not know where they all come from. Regarding spraying: In Thailand almost everyone sprays stuff over all crops all the time, and right up to the day before picking. We stopped the "expert contractors" from spraying as we were getting all these toxic (and expensive) chemicals sprayed with motor-powered sprayers to NO EFFECT. I have discovered a single chemical system that works, which I apply selectively by a hand pumped sprayer at centimeter range, not broadcast by a motor sprayer.

But I need need to be sure it is safe and I intend to have a safe regime in place before we start picking for our own consumption or sale.

That is the whole reason why I have asked for expert practical help on this Thai Farming Forum!!!!!! . All appropriate contributions accepted with gratitude.

P.S. I suggest you never buy salad greens or cucumbers from the Thai markets if you do not like pesticides.

Edited May 2, 2015 by The Deerhunter

[joshstiles]

I have no solution to offer and I read this because we have one single lime tree that seems to be doing very well and is pest free so far. I DO quite understand why you would set some guidelines on responses though unlike a couple of members who do not seem to understand the spirit in which you posted. Every OP on TV can well expect to be bashed for their post, no matter what that post is. by at least one person. What a sad social community.

[joshstiles]

i agree 1000%...what a sad social community and even more so those who continue to allow it.

I thought this was suppose to be a helpful website....what a crock

[The Deerhunter]

Are they even eatable after all that spraying??

I would appreciate it if you would please read the original post in full before replying like that. You would be well advised to not buy any greens, salad veges or cucumbers in Thai markets if you do not like sprays.

I am at least attempting to be responsible. Read the OP properly.

[BSJ]

You appear to have a pretty good grasp of horticulture - but the first step i would take is identify the beetle. You can't progress unless you know what it is. From the description i would guess Harlequin beetle

or does it look more like this ? the Broonze Orange bug. (stink beetle) they emit a nasty solution that stains the leaves and fruit for market and smells putrid )

Once identified then read up on the life cycle of the insect and spray when the insect is in the breeding stage with an appropriate spray. Most likely a systemic spray for sap suckers will be necessary , but it does mean the bark and fruit will transport a deadly chemical so strictly observe your withholding periods. . Look up Integrated pest Management for further information .and you find out how to save money and unnecessary use of chemical and often organic sprays will work very efficiently by knowing the right time in the life cycle to spray. By looking at the life cycle also take into account your location, weather conditions and micro climates and so on that may slightly alter the life cycle.

Also , what is the bird life like there in your area. If you are spraying indiscriminately and your neighbors are doing it too then a lot of the natural predators will be absent.

Neither of the above. I did describe them Hard wing cases and various colours, two different greens, also grey, fawn brown & mottled. Always in pairs and almost always humping. They munch on leaves, not suck sap. They prefer the newest sweetest leaves near end of branches.

They look a bit like this

Next time that you are at the market, buy some loose tobacco in a bundle. Make a tea by putting it in a bucket in the sun covered with water. After a few days, draw off the water and use that for a spray.

Hi there, haven't see tobacki leaf in the local market. We use tobacki and alcohol balls instead. Drop em in the tank and their mixed with the water by the time we get out the orchard.