Thailand Orders DNA Verification in British Backpacker Murders

[thailandchilli]

Yes, criticism of uncited sources is legit. What we do have to go on is what people, including the FCO has said.

Aren't people saying that the "Thai leadership" have declared the results already? (note -I am not one of those people) How does her history regarding the forensic value of the GT200 suggest she is still credible?

Credible enough to be head of the forensics, but then if you feel thats not correct then you obviously differ from those in power who put her there.............

[boomerangutang]

How about ...provide just one instance were the FCO investigated a death outside the UK?

see post #9 - several examples, just from a 5 minute google search.

A private firm. A meeting. A? Dead link. But nothing to actually indicate involvement directly in an investigation other than the title?

If a person is determined not to see, then he won't see, no matter how evident it is to others.

Pornthip won't mince words? Didn't she support the use of the GT200 bomb detector?

Bomb detectors aren't the woman's specialty, and neither is this topic about bomb detectors. Her specialty is forensics. She's widely respected as a forensic expert. Ordinarily, Thai police departments don't like her being involved in cases, because she doesn't often toe the police line; to back up scenarios wanted by police. In this case, police dearly want the B2 proven guilty. They should be objective about such things, but objectivity is an alien concept among Thai officials.

Keeping the focus on the B2, serves the purpose of keeping focus away from those who were (and should still be) prime suspects. That's what all of Thai offialdom wants. ....except perhaps, Ms Porntip.

[jdinasia]

Yes, criticism of uncited sources is legit. What we do have to go on is what people, including the FCO has said.

Aren't people saying that the "Thai leadership" have declared the results already? (note -I am not one of those people) How does her history regarding the forensic value of the GT200 suggest she is still credible?

Credible enough to be head of the forensics, but then if you feel thats not correct then you obviously differ from those in power who put her there.............

cherry picking again.

[jdinasia]

Bomb detectors are forensics.. .

[Linky]

Yes, criticism of uncited sources is legit. What we do have to go on is what people, including the FCO has said.

Aren't people saying that the "Thai leadership" have declared the results already? (note -I am not one of those people) How does her history regarding the forensic value of the GT200 suggest she is still credible?

Credible enough to be head of the forensics, but then if you feel thats not correct then you obviously differ from those in power who put her there.............

cherry picking again.

Yes cherry picking facts must be a real pain for you.?

[Mooner]

Bomb detectors are forensics.. .

Yes but not of DNA.

[jdinasia]

Bomb detectors are forensics.. .

Yes but not of DNA.

Head of forensics - was the quote I was replying to

[Mooner]

Bomb detectors are forensics.. .

Yes but not of DNA.

Head of forensics - was the quote I was replying to

Hmm I guess we are all guilty of cherry picking.

[jdinasia]

Bomb detectors are forensics.. .

Yes but not of DNA.

Head of forensics - was the quote I was replying to

Hmm I guess we are all guilty of cherry picking.

Nope. I replied directly to the assertion of the post I was replying to. I didn't ignore the fact that people are claiming that the government has "the fix in " which would also suggest that her being appointed by the government adds no credibility either.

[Mooner]

Ha ha. You were taking a statement from a post and using a fragment of it.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

A Koh Samui court made the ruling, finding that Thailand’s Central Institute of Forensic Science should be granted permission to retest the DNA samples that allegedly links the suspects to the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge.

I know the OP article talked about the court ordering an "independent" review of the DNA evidence in this case.

But, they're talking about having the review done by the Thai government's forensics department, not some outside or outside Thailand entity.

Is that really independent??? If, and I stress the word IF, the Thai authorities have determined to hang this case on the two Burmese guys, is a Thai government agency really going to shoot down their case???

And even if the Thai forensics department were to do an impartial review, how are they going to deal with the horrible lack of chain of custody of evidence details in the case? Just retesting the samples turned over by the Thai police isn't likely to produce a different outcome.

To really be independent, is the forensics department going to go out and arrange, if possible, for its own separate, new DNA samples for the involved parties??? Needless to say, there's absolutely no mention of those kinds of issues in the OP article.

[tingtongfarang]

The fact remains that the B2 are not getting a fair trial, DNA verification atleast gives them a small chance of that,

It would be so sad to see two guys go down just to avoid the loss of face of a couple of hardened thai criminal island mafia guys including rtp and a few posters on the pay roll.

Edited May 1, 2015 by tingtongfarang

[55Jay]

Bomb detectors are forensics.. .

How so? Please explain.

[jdinasia]

Ha ha. You were taking a statement from a post and using a fragment of it.

go back and look

[englishoak]

Didnt take long for the usual suspect to come to the RTP/establishments defence.

its a bit late to start doing DNA verification now, but this is usual here..... just once it would be good if Thailand actually did things right at the beginning instead of fannying about until way after the time its actually of real use.

They know exactly what they are doing and when and not to do anything according to the result they want, count on it

A endemically corrupt country with an equally corrupt system top to bottom, period.

[Krenjai]

The day the B2 will be executed will be one of the darkest chapters in Thai history, and no matter how much I love Thailand, this will be the drop in the bucket that will cause it to overflow.This independent verification is just another joke!

IMHO, what is needed is FRESH B2 samples checked against FRESH samples of the perpetrators DNA inside Hannah (if that is still scientifically possible today). Yes, this sounds cruel but do these parents want the truth or believe the BS they have been hearing for 9 months?

Can they live with the fact two innocent man will be sentenced to death based on a case where the head-investigator said: "both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders."

BTW, did the British coroner not collect samples from Hannah on repatriation of her body? If not, what an unbelievable mistake! It would get the B2 of the hook in a heartbeat!

YIKES!

[Mooner]

Ha ha. You were taking a statement from a post and using a fragment of it.

go back and look

Done and statement stands!

[IslandLover]

A very emotive case of course.

Will this request for independent testing help the quest for justice now, not sure?

When the General/PM praised the Police in arresting the Burmese, the case was basically closed.

If the two boys are found not guilty and are released OK, but will the real killers ever be brought to justice?

This is my opinion, please don't ask for links, evidence or if I was there.

Will this independent testing help the quest for justice? Very unlikely IMO, the results are known upfront.

Was the case closed once the B2 got arrested! Absolutely!

Will the real killers be brought to justice? You gotta be joking! Based on what evidence? DNA?

My question, was Hannah cremated or buried? If buried and if the family allows a re-examination of her body, is it scientifically possible to extract DNA traces of the perpetrators that raped her? If that is still possible today and would be allowed that is THE ONLY WAY to get the B2 of the hook.

IMHO

She was buried - but - her family are convinced the B2 are guilty, according to the latest reporting in the BKK Post. So it is highly unlikely they would agree to an exhumation.

[IslandLover]

A Koh Samui court made the ruling, finding that Thailand’s Central Institute of Forensic Science should be granted permission to retest the DNA samples that allegedly links the suspects to the murders of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge.

I know the OP article talked about the court ordering an "independent" review of the DNA evidence in this case.

But, they're talking about having the review done by the Thai government's forensics department, not some outside or outside Thailand entity.

Is that really independent??? If, and I stress the word IF, the Thai authorities have determined to hang this case on the two Burmese guys, is a Thai government agency really going to shoot down their case???

And even if the Thai forensics department were to do an impartial review, how are they going to deal with the horrible lack of chain of custody of evidence details in the case? Just retesting the samples turned over by the Thai police isn't likely to produce a different outcome.

To really be independent, is the forensics department going to go out and arrange, if possible, for its own separate, new DNA samples for the involved parties??? Needless to say, there's absolutely no mention of those kinds of issues in the OP article.

From an article in the Guardian:

Andy Hall, a rights activist from Britain who works closely with migrant workers in Thailand, said the defence would also be allowed to request new DNA tests of the suspects.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/30/thailand-dna-british-backpacker-murders-burmese-suspects?CMP=share_btn_fb

Of course, new DNA tests on the B2 would need to be taken by an independent party.

[JLCrab]

From the above linked The Guardian article as quoted from Andy Hall

“We have argued throughout that we can’t say for sure they are innocent."

On here, others have had no problem saying that.

[ianf]

DNA samples to be checked, should have been done months ago, before police had chance to contaminate them or infact change them.

Anybody who believes police would not do that are very nieve.

I personally have been involved with Thai police fabricating evidence, resulting in my spending days in prison.

nieve = a closed hand or clenched fist. I would agree. It strikes me that the police always work with a clenched fist and a closed hand mind.

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[boomerangutang]

From the above linked The Guardian article as quoted from Andy Hall

“We have argued throughout that we can’t say for sure they are innocent."

On here, others have had no problem saying that.

Speaking for myself, I also can't say for sure the B2 are innocent. One thing that differentiates observers like me from observers whose opinions I clash with, is those others are saying the original prime suspects (Mon and Nomsod and their buddies) are 100% innocent - and can't possibly be guilty. One side, which includes me, is open-minded enough to consider the B2 may be guilty. The other side won't consider the H's people are guilty of any wrong-doing.

The adjoining question is: 'guilty of what?' the B2 may be guilty of all that Thai officialdom claims they're guilty of, or they may just be guilty of having sex with a corpse and/or stealing some low-value items. the trial, if it's fair, will hopefully shed light on these things.

The H's people may be guilty of what the B2 are accused of, or they may be just guilty of hiding evidence and lying to police. Because the H's people aren't going to be on trial, it's unlikely we will ever know. Thai officialdom is determined to keep the H's people as far removed from any scrutiny or legal proceedings as possible.

[JLCrab]

In other words, persons may be not guilty of what they have not been accused of even those those who think they should be accused of something have not said what the something is of which they should not have been accused.

[thailandchilli]

Looks like once the trial proper gets underway on the 18th July, thats its going to be fairly speedy in its conclusion, the judge has said he wants it wrapped up in 18 days after speaking to one of the victims families who they know are coming over, no doubt that is Hannah's family.

We still heard no word on Davids family if they will be coming or not although I'm sure they are as relieved as everyone else must be that the DNA evidence is now going to be re examined. However of course this is not going to be seen by the local and international community as a full independent examination but at least its some way to what was needed. Even "the Judge said he did not want to see a miscarriage of justice" I guess he knows the RTP's history on this as does everyone else.

Some of the above taken from the article in David's home town paper Jersey Evening post http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2015/04/30/dna-evidence-to-be-re-examined-ahead-of-trial-of-thai-murders-trial/

Personally I have to say I never expected this and am very pleasantly surprised the judges have taken this decision albeit far too late when all this fuss could have been avoided months ago by listening to the international community and governments calling for this to happen then.

I fail to see how anybody could disagree with this decision by the judges or attempt to discredit the process but hey, it takes all sorts.....

[evadgib]

As usual there's more Red Herrings here than @ Billingsgate. This century old example nips one in the bud re experts stepping outside their chosen field:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/district/district_bingley/district_bing_cottingley/8670379.Man_who_exposed_fake_fairies_dies/

Edited May 2, 2015 by evadgib

[NeverSure]

As usual there's more Red Herrings here than @ Billingsgate. This century old example nips one in the bud re experts stepping outside their chosen field:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/local/district/district_bingley/district_bing_cottingley/8670379.Man_who_exposed_fake_fairies_dies/

This is why it's so important to preserve a crime scene and to get unbiased experts in immediately. That didn't happen.

In the case of this photo, it remains preserved and today would be laughed off as a fake by the masses, especially any trained in Photoshop.

The shadows give it away. The girl and the foreground show that the light is coming from a bit above and behind her, putting shadows on her nose, lower left cheek, a highlight in her hair upper right, and a shadow on the ground in front of her. The fairies have a light source right in front of them when all of them should be in shadow. This is an impossible lighting scenario and it would never hit the news.

The case of the BB from the island is a moving target which may never be known for sure.

[Mooner]

I have a question! How many hours after the crime did an off island official reach the island?

[seedy]

One libel defamation post removed

2) You will not use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably
construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.
You also agree not to post negative comments criticizing the legal proceedings or judgments of any
Thai court of law.

[seedy]

one post discussing moderation removed

10) Do not discuss moderation publicly in the open forum; this includes individual actions, and specific
or general policies and issues. You may send a PM to a moderator to discuss individual actions or email
support (at) thaivisa.com to discuss moderation policy.