Non-Thai men speaking effeminately?

[jauggy]

I was watching a video by Stuart Jay Rav and he mentioned that there are some videos of non-Thai men speaking Thai on youtube but they sound slightly effeminate, possibly because they learnt Thai from their girlfriends. Has anyone seen this? What videos is he talking about?

If you want to see the vid where Stuart mentions it, go here.

[ChaangNoi]

In a way it makes sense. I speak English to Thai guys and Thai to females mostly. Not really sure why...

[timmyp]

I have heard this story before, and I don't believe it. I heard Stuart say that at a lecture he was giving, and I have heard other Thai people tell the same story about someone they met.

I lived in Japan for about 15 years, and heard Japanese people tell the same story all the time. The story was usually about an American soldier they met who had learned from his Japanese girlfriend.

I am fully fluent in Japanese (certified interpreter & translator), and much to my irritation, Korean and Chinese people who speak Japanese have said that same thing about me (I am a white guy). "You speak like a girl, you must have learned from your girlfriend." It's ridiculous because I've never dated a Japanese woman. It is just something the other Asians would say to me because they were jealous that my Japanese was better than their Japanese, so they wanted to put me down due their weird sense of competition.

I fully believe it's an urban legend. Anyone who can actually faithfully imitate the language enough to "sound like a girl" is going to have the ability to sound like a guy. Anybody who gets remotely conversational is going to speaking with more people than just a girlfriend. While the legend of the big white dude sounding like a girl seems to make logical sense: "The guy will imitate his girlfriend and say dichan and nuu, and that will make him sound like a girl," language learning and acquisition don't really work that way (I have a master's degree in linguistics, btw).

This is probably just an anecdote that people like to tell. It helps make a good point about language learning though: Think about what you say, and be aware of how you'll sound.

[SlyAnimal]

Yeah some guys who learn from their gf definitely learn Thai which, when you listen to the vocabulary used, is a bit feminine. So they might simply use some vocab which is "cute" because they heard it from their gf or their gf's friends etc.

Usually these guys are just pretty casual learners though, and so their pronunciation is still rough and their voice usually still sounds quite masculine, they simply choose to use vocab which is more feminine as they don't know any better.

I remember a guy posting a video on a fb group I belong to where he was speaking Thai, but used a few feminine words instead of the "manly" equivalent (Which is normal, Thai people do it sometimes too, but it seemed like he used it because he didn't know as opposed to a conscious choice). He had only been learning Thai for a month or so though, and with that in mind, had pretty awesome Thai for just a month or so (Which was why he posted).

[rak sa_ngop]

I am sure there must be lots of guys out there who say 'khop kun ka' because they have picked this up from sales girls.

In fact I found it took me some time to differentiate between 'ka' and 'krap' sounds when I first came to Thailand

[timmyp]

Yeah some guys who learn from their gf definitely learn Thai which, when you listen to the vocabulary used, is a bit feminine. So they might simply use some vocab which is "cute" because they heard it from their gf or their gf's friends etc.

Usually these guys are just pretty casual learners though, and so their pronunciation is still rough and their voice usually still sounds quite masculine, they simply choose to use vocab which is more feminine as they don't know any better.

I remember a guy posting a video on a fb group I belong to where he was speaking Thai, but used a few feminine words instead of the "manly" equivalent (Which is normal, Thai people do it sometimes too, but it seemed like he used it because he didn't know as opposed to a conscious choice). He had only been learning Thai for a month or so though, and with that in mind, had pretty awesome Thai for just a month or so (Which was why he posted).

If someone has only been speaking Thai for a month or can only say a few words, I don't see how that person could even sound feminine or masculine, they would just sound like a foreigner who can't speak yet. Sure, a guy who is just starting to learn might use a word that is typically female, but that's hardly enough to say that he sounds feminine. You have to reach a certain level before you can even develop a sound that can be classified as something beyond "incredibly broken."

[SlyAnimal]

I guess if we want to know what he meant in the video, we should just ask him

[jauggy]

In my first post, I wrote his name wrong. It should be Stuart Jay Raj (not Rav).

I have just sent him a message on youtube, asking for some example videos of the phenomenon he describes. I will give an update if he replies.

[SlyAnimal]

Haha I sent him a msg on fb aswell, I'm not on his friends list though, so am not sure if he'll reply or not :-p

[SlyAnimal]

Actually I've been listening to the video on my computer now, which takes me to the part where he discusses this (Previously I was on my phone, and it just took me to the start).

I completely understand what he means now, as he was specifically meaning in regards to the pronounciation of some shared particles etc (e.g. นะ, น่ะ, สิ etc) , where sometimes girls/ladyboys will say them in a different way that's maybe sorta "cute" or outrageous, and so if you use the same pronounciation as them, but in the wrong context, it might send the wrong signals.

e.g. I don't really know any "cutesie" girls, only "normal" ones, but some of my wife's friends are gay/ladyboys, and they'll change the pitch of their voice quite dramatically when saying some phrases/particles, particularly when having a bit of a laugh. If I did the same thing, it might be taken as just a joke, but if it was in the wrong context, it might sound like I was an overly dramatic ladyboy/gay queen lol. In the same way, if I said particles in the same way that a "cute" girl would, like say Dao on the Lakorn Hormones*, then it might make me sound like I was a cute girl as well lol.

* Dao is probably the most "Cutesie" character I've ever seen (Well when she first starts on the show). I tried to find a clip of her speaking, but they're all focusing on her lesbian kiss lol, which was after she'd gotten a lot more serious. I think they have most of the episodes available on youtube both with & without Eng subs if you're interested in checking it out.

[Gecko123]

Some straight Thai men speak Thai fairly effeminately as well.

Thai, in the greater scheme of things, is probably not the most "masculine" sounding of languages to begin with.

About two years into my study, I can remember reading Thai to a co-worker back home, and his first comment was, "That's not a very masculine sounding language." Most of my speaking practice at that time was from listening to language tapes of mostly, but not exclusively, female speakers.

I've never had a Thai person tell me I sounded effeminate or talked like a girl. I wouldn't let this inhibit me in the least. You can always "butch up" your speaking mannerisms down the road if you think it's warranted.

[Jay_Jay]

Hi All - Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. @timmyp - I hear what you're saying and I agree that this has hit Urban myth status in a lot of languages including Thai. When I mentioned it, it was in regard to the usage of particles. There are some particles in Thai along with pronouns of course - and also the rhythms that they are used that have a very distinct female ring to it. Very heterosexual / masculine Thai men can make use of these in a way to make themselves come of very flirty / playboyish in a 'positive' way, but to do so, there are a lot of dynamics that come into play and it is only done under certain conditions (and when certain people are present... and certain others aren't present). This even extends to being able to use the word 'Kha' ค่ะ as a guy.

What I hear a great deal however are female particles and rhythms used by foreign learners of Thai that are not used in the right context and come across looking / sounding out of place ... or out of the persona that they seem like they want to project.

I don't want to post any specific clips or mention any people's names, as on the whole, these guys have put in a fantastic effort into their language and achieved things that many haven't been able to. The last thing I want to do is discourage people from learning language. This 'female talk' however has often become the subject of discussion amongst my Thai friends when they hear these clips.

Some of the things to listen out for are the use (and overuse) of the 'a' อะ particle tagged onto the end of sentences - both sometimes as just 'a' and sometimes with a 'w' attached to it coming out as หวะ.

For example:

ไม่ชอบอะ mâi cʰɔ̂ à 'I don't like it'

ไม่เอาอะ mâi au wà (note the 'w' being inserted during speech)

ทำไมอะ tʰam mai (y)à

And then also the use of นะฮะ 'náhá' instead of ครับ 'kʰráp' - which is something done a lot by Thai men. You will often hear the TV presenter Sorayuth say this as he's describing something, but the rest of the ingredients to speech - vocab / flow etc need to be there to make it sound right, otherwise it can go awry. This can sometimes morph into นะยะ náyá which is a very gay / katoey way of saying นะครับ nákʰráp

Other things could be guys using their own names as first person pronoun. Girls would do this a lot when speaking with someone that they would usually address as พี่ 'pʰî:' (older brother or sister). It's not something a guy would normally do though and does sound very feminine. I have heard quite a few guys with quite reasonable fluency in Thai still do this.

[timmyp]

Thanks for adding more, Stu. I really like and fully support everything you do.
Japanese also has senetence-ending particles that can give a sentence a feminine or masculine sound (I know you know this already), and it's certainly something learners need to be aware of.

[riceyummm]

Thanks Jay_Jay, I did not know that about the first person pronoun and I use it all the time. I will stop right now. What would be the best alternative, simply drop my name as personal pronoun or use "Pohm"?

[EmptyHead]

At least it's better than the "baby-talk pidgin" some guys start when talking to Thais. When they do it to other farangs, it is even funnier!

[Tim207]

Thanks Jay, I recently started using tammai-a and arai-ya because I hear it so often and It feels more fluid. I guess I will have to stop that. 90 percent of my communication is with women so I didn't realize that was a feminine way to speak.