UK Visitor Visa - Denial Reason

[ThaiLive]

Hoping for any of the resident experts opionion/advice on the following..

Just found out that my girlfriend has been denied her visitor visa for the second time, first time we did ourselves and i can admit that the paperwork was not great, this time we used the service of a reputable agency and i can vouch that this submission was very professional and included all of the advice we have seen given from the forum members.

So the denial letter (GV51) has stated that all of the evidence submitted was sufficient but that she is being denied on the grounds that the letter from her employer was not on company headed paper, as such they could not believe that she is employed at said company, as a result she could not prove that the company existed and so could not prove her income so they had grounds to believe that she would not return to Thailand. The first application included a similar format letter except this letter stated the time off she was allowed for holidays.

1. This is a small bar business and as such do not have company headed paper (they did stamp the letter using their company stamp business name, address, telephone number etc)

2. She provided 12 months bank statements which show her income from employer each month.

3. I am sponsoring her trip (3 week visit).

4. She has two children

5. She provided evidence of land assets.

6. They made no attempt to contact her work to confirm details (these were clearly provided and employer informed that they may receive a call from British embassy).

Any of the experts have any advice on how we proceed from here as we clearly cannot provide company headed paper, how would someone working in say a family business provide such a thing, surely there has been a failure of duty by the officer in light of these facts and them stating that the rest of the application was fine?

Thank You for taking the time to read this as you can imagine this is extremely upsetting as we wish for her to visit my family in order that she can meet them and also to see a little of the UK, all this before we consider taking our lives together further.

Regards

ThaiLive

[tonyk]

While there is no appeal available you could challenge the decision by contacting the Embassy, explaining the situation and ask them to reconsider the decision as you feel it is clearly unjust.

[7by7]

What does your agent have to say?

As they helped you prepare the application, they are best placed to advise you.

[ThaiLive]

Felt that the application had not been considered as a whole e.g 12 months Bank statements clearly show salary going in, no attempt to contact the business to confirm details were made (its been around for over 15 years), All other facts were accepted, there was no mention that the employee letter was unacceptable in the first refusal letter (if mentioned we could have made an attempt to resolve prior to application). If this had been a fiance visa there is a good chance this application would have been accepted as its been refused solely on employment letter.

Refusal state it was not on company letterhead paper, but the oxford dictionary definition of a letterhead is the name and address of a person, a company or an organization printed at the top of their writing paper (why is a company stamp which is a logo, includes business address and contact number not the same) maybe i should resubmit after asking her employer to stamp at the top of the letter instead of after the signature and print the name and business address at the top?

Otherwise the only thing i can think of is asking the company owner if he minds terribly if i design & pay for a box of stationary for his company to have headed paper?

Surely they are saying that by being in employment by a small business without company stationary this will count against your application, at least we even got a letter and it was officially stamped what happens for those applications where the applicants are not in employment as the ECO states the rest of the application is fine in their eyes, but in this case even by having land assets, children ( i know a lot of thais leave them with parents) they did not believe her application was genuine.

If we were to challenge the embassy decision, how would we go about this as i know they do not have to consider visitor visas?

[Tony M]

It would be better if you could post the GV51, so that we can see the actual wording ( remove all personal details before posting).

I have seen some very "tenuous" refusal reasons lately, and I wonder if the UKVI ( in Bangkok) are tightening up on visit applications. In this case, it seems that the evidence submitted is good, but the ECO has not accepted that the applicant works as claimed. A simple phone call would have sorted that out, yet the ECO did not do it. Of course, the ECO doesn't have any obligation to make that phone call, but he is supposed to make a balanced decision, and on balance, it seems more likely than not that the applicant was telling the truth. If she wasn't, or if the ECO had reason to believe that she had lied about her occupation, then he could have/should have refused the application on the grounds of attempted deception. The fact that he didn't do so means that he took the "easy option" for a quick and easy refusal.

You can contact the Embassy, and ask for a review of the decision. The only way that you can do that now is to make a complaint, using the online complaint form.

https://eforms.homeoffice.gov.uk/outreach/UKVI-international-complaints.ofml

Your complaint, although it doesn't tell you so, is restricted to 400 words.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Tony M

[laislica]

Is it actually the Embassy who make the decision?

I wonder is all the Embassy does is send everything to the UK Border Control people?

This is a real and unreasonable pain in the bum and I feel for the OPs pain and frustration.

Mort thoughts.

You don't give your ages. I am 20 years older than my Thai wife and we live part time in Spain.

She was refused a visa on very tenuous grounds but I now wonder if their real reason is that I was 70 and she was 50?

We were in Spain and applied to the British Embassy in Madrid.

As part of the procedure to have my wife registered as resident in Spain, we were required to send PDFs of many documents to the Consulate in Malaga and finally attending the consulate to swear oaths.

However, I found out that all the paperwork was in fact sent to the Embassy in Madrid and when they decided everything was OK then gave the nod to the Consul. The Consul did nothing in the decision making process.

I have no idea if Madrid used the UK border control....

At no stage did they ever ring any of the numbers given or send email to anyone - they just issued a rejection....

Dam n them!

Edited May 9, 2015 by laislica

[theoldgit]

The UKVI are the people that decide on the application and they are housed in the British Embassy.

The Border Force are those that staff the UK Border, and do in country enforcement.

[skatewash]

Otherwise the only thing i can think of is asking the company owner if he minds terribly if i design & pay for a box of stationary for his company to have headed paper?

That was going to be my suggestion.

Of course it's discriminatory against small employers, but quite frankly the bureaucrats aren't going to lose any sleep over that.

You don't make the rules but you still have to play the game. If that, in fact, was the sole reason the application was rejected, then at least they'll have to come up with another excuse the next time you submit. Good luck.

[Trembly]

Is it too late for you to sponsor some company-headed paper for the bar and re-submit?

[Aussieroaming]

Is she paid in cash or via electronic transmittal? If the latter she can prove she is paid via the company registered bank account.

[bobrussell]

In the world of computers and good printers there is no need for headed paper to be specially printed. I have run a business for 15 years and our headed paper is a document file on the computers.

It could be argued that this should have been done for the application but in the real world this looks like the daftest rejection reason on record! It is far more hassle to make up a stamp than create it on a computer.

Seems to be a very tenuous and weak reason for refusal. If the only reason then a complaint seems in order.

Go back to the agent and get them to chase it for you. They are probably as peeved as you are!

Are there any more reasons on the rejection letter?

[wooloomooloo]

In fairness, the refusal letter still hasn't been posted and will be mighty surprised if it does.

The resident experts are obviously in no position to assist without sight of said letter.

Good luck, nonetheless, OP.

Edited May 11, 2015 by wooloomooloo

[bobrussell]

In fairness, the refusal letter still hasn't been posted and will be mighty surprised if it does.

The resident experts are obviously in no position to assist without sight of said letter.

Good luck, nonetheless, OP.

Quite true. There is a comment there about not being able to prove the income as the existence of the company could not be confirmed. I would have expected the bank statements to show the income!

Without sight of the refusal letter I can only go on the information offered!

[Tony M]

We really do need to see the GV51. I am interested to know what paragraph(s) the application was refuse under, as from what the OP says, the ECO has implied that the employment letter was false. If the ECO did not refuse the application on the grounds of deception ( submitting a false document) then it would seem that the ECO did not really have much, if any, evidence that the letter was false. That would possibly make the refusal a little "weak", and open to challenge. If the ECO did refuse the application on the grounds that the letter was false, then he will have had to do a report confirming how he has determined the document to be falsified.

[ThaiLive]

Apologies for the delay the exact wording is as follows; you have applied for a visa in order to visit xxxxx who is a British citizen and you describe as your boyfriend. I am satisfied that you have met. You have never travelled out of thailand before. You were refused a UK visa on 26/6/14 as you provided poor evidence of funds in place and you had not provided any documents demonstrating your income.

You state you have been employed as a waitress with the xxx company since Augustv2013 and receive a monthly income of xxxx baht, around xxx. You have submitted a poor quality employment reference letter which is not in company letter headed paper and you have submitted not documents to demonstrate the xxx company is a going concern. I am therefore not satisfied that you are employed in the capacity that you state, and your circumstances in Thailand are as your describe. This undermines the credibility of your visa application as a whole and calls into question your true intentions in the UK. In addition I note that you are unable to support yourself on the income you receive in thailand as you receive supplementary payments from xxx in order to pay for your rent and motorbike.

I am therefore not satisfied..... Under paragraph 41 (I) and (ii)

[Tony M]

The ECO has used the wording contained in the guide to visit visa applications :

"Details of employment or studies where you have stated in your application that you are either employed or in full-time studies. This could include:

a letter from your employer on company headed paper, detailing your role, salary and length of employment"

Note that the guidance says it "could" include, not must include.

A dictionary definition of "headed notepaper" says :

"writing paper with a person's or organization's name and address printed at the top of it"

I do think it is a little disingenuous to reject the evidence of employment just because the company "stamp" was not at the top of the notepaper though. Of course, the guidance is only guidance, and should not be used as a reason for refusal on its own, as it is not written into law. There is nothing to stop the ECO checking the information by other means, especially as he had a phone number to do so. He has access to the internet, to check if there is a website, and he has access to Google Street View, to see what is at the given address Perhaps he did some or all of those things, and learned that the applicant was employed as claimed.

I have started seeing things like "You have never travelled out of Thailand before." more and more recently. Often from the same ECO, so it may well be another refusal from him. But, again, there is no such reason for refusal written into immigration law, nor could there be, so it is disingenuous to even mention it in a GV51. For me, it just looks like smoke and mirrors to pad out the reasons for refusal. You could try submitting a complaint to the Embassy against the refusal, or you could get your MP to make a complaint to the UKVI, or you could do both.

[bobrussell]

The headed notepaper bit is not the whole cause for the rejection. The ECO is not satisfied that the business is a genuine employer and/or she is a genuine employee.

If you can show clear evidence that the business is genuinely employing your girlfriend then it would seem this can be overcome. Clearly more information about the employer, more clarity with wage payments are required.

Do the wages go into the bank? Are there payslips? If the employer cannot or will not provide this then it may be time for her to look for another job, wait and reapply.

There is nothing wrong with someone receiving supplementary payments nor to be living on a low wage but clearly this might cause concerns that reasons to return may be limited.

I suspect the more you dig away at this the more likely it will be that a visa will be approved.

Edit: Tony M was writing at the same time!

The only reason for refusal that I can see hiding amongst all the words is doubt about employment and income. The rest is drivel IMO. If you do complain I would suggest you include confirmation of income and it is very easy to put exactly the same letter on computer produced headed paper. Make it clear that this has been done only because the ECO thought the original was poor quality!

Not left Thailand before or receive supplemental income are not reasons to refuse whereas a history of travel might be seen as a good thing!

Edited May 16, 2015 by bobrussell

[ThaiLive]

Thank you for the advice. We will probably submit a complaint on the grounds of the employment letter also I stated that in my supporting letter that she solely financial supports herself and that I send payments to supplement any payments for rent, motorbikes etc not for paying for these. Most of the business in the area pay cash for wages and tips few submit payslips or pay in to a bank.

If they had looked up the business on say Google it would have been the first entry seen of many, its been in the same place for nearly 25 years, I do see that the parent company name is listed in a companies website as limited company so may approach the owner next time out and ask them for a copy of listing or is that something we can apply to thai government for??

[blackcab]

If the employment is genuine all you need are copies of her Social Fund payments that the employer must have made each and every month for the last year.

The employer or their accountant will have the original receipts and will be able to provide copies.

In a case like this I cannot think of better proof when used in conjunction with a letter on headed paper and personal bank statements.

[ThaiLive]

Thank you all for the advice given, we are already well on the road with regards to the headed paper, as they are limited all this information is now included, turns out they did have headed paper years ago but ran out and did not get more as they didn't have much need for it, I made them an electronic mockup which they are delighted with, thus I've helped them and they can help us with a new letter this time on said paper, were going to include some photos of her at work, company website link etc and hopefully reapply again in July/August with a hopeful visit at xmas.

I believe that applications can be post dated for up to 3 months visa start date?

[7by7]

Yes, but as well as entering this in the relevant part of the form you should also stress the required start date in your sponsor's letter.

Then check it immediately the passport is received back; mistakes do happen and cannot be rectified later.

[Kalbo]

I imagine the problem will be to do with finances of the lady. If the job is 'waitress' or 'receptionist' of even 'hairdresser', and has even a whiff of 'bar' then these applications tend to get rejected on

financial grounds, as it it is not politically correct to write 'We have reason to believe she may go on the game in the UK and also try and get on the welfare system'.

Also, if you are giving her any financial support at all, DO NOT mention this as it tends to make the authorities think that the donations are being made because her she is not able to

survive on her salary, hence she is going to the UK to work. You need to view everything from the other side and put yourself in the Clearance Officers position, where he is looking to reject

applications for the tiniest detail, and so you need to pre-empt this by anticipating what will be looked at with disdain, and thus rectify it.

[theoldgit]

Members come onto this forum for meaningful advice, not urban myths, so I will endeavour to lay some of the myths, outlined previously, to rest, and I ask that members who offer advice to stick to the facts not to relay bar stool gossip and help maintain the integrity of this forum.

Waitresses, hairdressers and receptionists are genuine occupations and it is a slur on those in those jobs to suggest that they are engaged in any other type of work, Entry Clearance Officer's certainly wont believe that girls in these jobs are anything other than what they say.

If an sponsor is providing some sort of support to their partner then of course say so, this can help build up the evidence of a relationship and might account for funds going through an account. Don't leave out pertinent information just because you have the mistaken belief of how it might be interpreted by the person considering the application.

Lastly, and by no means least, it's simply not true to suggest that ECO's are "looking to reject applications for the tiniest detail", if the application is genuine and affordable and it's likely that the applicant will return home, then Entry Clearance will be granted, if the ECO is not satisfied with the application then they are likely to refuse, it's as simple as that.

So please let's have less scaremongering gleaned from bar stool gossip and please stick to the facts.

[Seekingasylum]

I beg to differ in that in my experience there have been many instances where the ECO has refused an application on flimsy grounds which ignore its overall merit.

Quite clearly, in this case the ECO has exceeded his authority in refusing the application in that he has failed to apply properly the test that the evidence presented before him should be considered on the balance of probability i.e. a proposition is more likely than not.

Of course, we shall see many more refusals such as these now that there is no meaningful appeal process to concentrate their minds.

[theoldgit]

I of course bow to your experience SA, but I'm sure you'll agree that it's difficult to offer meaningful advice, as an amateur, if ECO's are going to act outside their remit.

I do wonder what sort of quality checks are made on the decisions made by ECO's, if any, by UKVI local managers, to ensure that their staff are carrying out their roles correctly and in accordance with their guidelines. Is their any sort of review at the staff assessment stage?

I'm inclined to agree with your belief that there are likely to be more refusals with the removal of an effective and meaningful appeal process.

That said, there is still no place for the advice given in earlier posts which, in my view, is scaremongering without any real foundation.

[bobrussell]

The only truly independent scrutiny comes via The Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration.

He (now David Bolt) will not deal with individual complaints but many aspects of the old UKBA have been inspected in recent years.

They do make interesting bedtime reading for the very bored and sad!

http://icinspector.independent.gov.uk/inspections/inspection-reports/

[TommyUK1960]

When my girlfriend applied she told them she work on family farm. Had no problem. The bank details and how much you have has a large deciding factor.

She had over million bhat in her account over 3 years. My accounts were also quite loaded up.

She is my wife now and I think its about how much you put down to finance the trip.

Never use agents. They have their little fiddles.