What happens to the food believers put in front of statues?

[Goosood]

In Thailand I often see small temples in the garden of people. With small statues in them and food put in front of these statues.

I am always very reluctant to ask questions about it, for fear of being considered disrespectful. So I can never really ask them the questions I want to ask and certainly not follow up questions to understand it better, because they can easily be interpreted as "that you believe this nonsense". And I don't want them to get that idea.

1) The food at the end of the day is of course still there. The statues have not really eaten it. So what do believers theologically think is happening 'behind the scenes'? The food is spiritually converted into spiritual food and consumed this way?

2) The statues are I presume from deceased family members? But in Buddhism isn't it so that people are reincarnated in a new life? These deceased people do not reside in some kind of heaven I think, they reside on Earth in a new life form. So how can they see that their old family members honour them with food? They are on earth now, not in some spiritual other region.

3) When I speak to Thai people they see Buddha as a God, but when I read a text book on Buddhism it always says he is not a God in the Western sense. But my idea is the ordinary people see him as a God more or less in the Western sense. Is this correct?

4) People put flowers at home to honour Buddha. So I think the general idea is that Buddha is somehow stil there, in some kind of heaven, sees that you are doing good and will give you good luck. Is this correct? Buddha is seen as still being there and listening to prayers?

I would love to have some answers on this. I want to understand how Thai people theologically interpret this all. I don't want to know the official doctrine but how the average Thai interprets it.

Because like in Christianity and other religions there is sometimes a difference in how the ordinary folks interpret their religion and the "official" doctrine of their religion.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Goosood

[tifino]

the food is left out there, for a period I have yet to be advised on however long as deemed enough? for the godhouse to have sampled it...

after this as yet to be determined period... the food can be consumed by the lay people, as it is seen to be lucky, to be able to partake that as having been 'blessed'?

it is also good luck for the food to be taken from the plate and made available to whatever animals are around to take it i.e meat - eaten by the birds etc

not uncommon to see whole cooked chicken cast over the compound fence for the wild animals/birds to take the food back to nature

Depending upon the province/background/culture of particular peoples, some say it's bad luck to take home any of the offered food, yet others do...

I've seen Lao take home yet many Thai do not

Edited May 10, 2015 by tifino

[Goosood]

Thank you for your reply but it doesn't go into any of the 4 questions I am asking. I am nothing wiser :-)

[kaorop]

Ask a thai?, what i've learnt is (right or wrong):

Its for the spirit that lives under that piece of land, it comes up at night, has some food and drink provided by the residents

and so will protect those people from evil spirits etc etc.

Sorta like leaving out biscuits and milk for santa.

[Goosood]

Ask a thai?, what i've learnt is (right or wrong):

Its for the spirit that lives under that piece of land, it comes up at night, has some food and drink provided by the residents

and so will protect those people from evil spirits etc etc.

Sorta like leaving out biscuits and milk for santa.

No this can not be. The food is clearly put in front of the statues. Each statue has its own plate. Or does every statue represent a spirit that lives there?

I hope there is someone out there who can answer my four questions.

[RichCor]

I think you'll find there is no 'one' way that people interpret what is 'Buddhism' or how it should be practiced.

As the story goes, when 'Buddhism' makes its way across cultures over time it is almost forced to take on parts of that existing culture and customs to become as 'part of the Buddhist practice' so not to be thought of as being 'too foreign' to be accepted. You will probably find the beliefs a mix of animism, Hinduism, Buddhism, with some Chinese beliefs imported for good measure.

Even though I think of these 'offerings' to the spirits (or spirit statues) as non-Buddhist, there is something to be learned from the behavior.

What "is" food?

When does it 'become' food?

Who does this food belong to?

How 'attached' are you to it being 'food', needing to be eaten.

When does it become 'waste/wasted'.

If someone creates something and it looks like 'food', are there restrictions to what can be done with it?

Is it helpful to honor the memory of those you once knew?

Is it helpful to honor the memory of your ancestors? Of what they accomplished and passed on to you?

Is there an 'upside' to this behavior?

Is there a 'downside' to this behavior?

Is the behavior neutral?

(By the way, this goes over the head of most of my friends. Though some long-time practitioners probably know what I'm on about)

I'm not sure how many Thais there are that are experts in their own culture, or Buddhist Monks that are experts in what is and isn't Thai Buddhism. I know many Buddhist Monks who make their living off fortune telling and blessing people's newly acquired personal property. What gets called Thai Buddhism appears to be vast and wide, and sometime quick and loose.

And I always think is best to ask the people of that custom and culture what this is, why is it here. Make friends.

[Goosood]

Three replies so far and none of them addresses my four questions. Hmmm. Interesting phenomenon. Rarely experienced by me.

Pleas reply as follows.

My answer to your question 1) is...

My answer to your question 2) is...

etc

Thanks.

[TacoGuy]

1. Just as in Christianity, varying levels of belief (think wine and crackers in Catholicism). Yes, the general concept if that the spirits sample the food in a spiritual world way. Thais no more question this than Christians would question Jesus personally listening to their prayers (Hint: there is no Jesus).

2. Not necessarily family members. Inside homes there are shrines to family members, the spirit house outside is more to do with the area and the people that have lived on that ground before. They are placed on for good luck. Spirits are everywhere in Thailand and it is only loosely connected to actual Buddhism. Bear in mind that religion is far more pluralistic in Asia, it is not uncommon to find people who subscribe to more than one religion, although Thailand itself is not the best example of this.

3. Again, it probably depends on which Thai person you are talking to and, also, translation. Within Buddhism itself there are varying interpretations of how deistic the Buddha became. It's safe to think of him as sacred, but not a god in the Western sense.

4) Yes. Flowers and gifts for Buddha are for good luck, and as with all things spiritual or superstitious, there is a irrational human longing for it to be true. It's not much different in concept from someone having a lucky shirt or something like that.

Personally, I am happy to participate in the whole shenanigan for cultural reasons, but I don't go over the top as some farangs do. I cringe a bit when I see farangs out-Thai-ng the Thais on these kind of things!

[HLover]

No joke, there is a short haired English lady about 60 years old who around 9:00 am will go to a few shops and eat as well as drink whisky from the Buddha plates.

[RichCor]

I think it will be difficult to 'answer' your questions, as what a foreigner 'sees' or 'perceives' may not be what you believe is happening.

I'm asking a Thai friend to answer your questions. He may not fully understand the question (certainly doesn't understand the 'western' perspective) but here goes:

1) The food at the end of the day is of course still there. The statues have not really eaten it. So what do believers theologically think is happening 'behind the scenes'? The food is spiritually converted into spiritual food and consumed this way?

Some Thais believe that every house in Thailand have good spirits that take care of the people in the home. New houses have special ceremonies to ask the spirits to bless the house. If people don't get the spirits permission to build and later bless the home them Thais believe it can lead to bad luck and the house to have problems, lack of prosperity. When Thai people leave the food, they believe the ghost/spirit eat or rather breath in the essence of the food. Thai people won't eat opened food left for the spirits, but with sealed snacks or breads offered 'inside' will sometimes take back what the spirit left and share with friends later.

2) The statues are I presume from deceased family members? But in Buddhism isn't it so that people are reincarnated in a new life? These deceased people do not reside in some kind of heaven I think, they reside on Earth in a new life form. So how can they see that their old family members honour them with food? They are on earth now, not in some spiritual other region.

We do a 'spirit house', a single small structure that's used to create good luck and good life for the people to believe. Also used to give your ask for your fondest wish to be granted. The statues representing 'people' are probably a Chinese-Thai thing. I don't know about that. Have Rice, Water, Tea and food... want to share what the family would eat with the spirits.

To us, this is also Buddhism. Yes, we believe in reincarnation, but we are unsure when that happens. Maybe 'dad' is still around and we go to temple (wat) and give food to monk on behalf of the people who have died. Some people who die, like bad people who kill, who eat YaBa, or steal go to a type of hell (I don't know what happen to them). When we honor those who have past, when we meditate, they know we are doing this. We learn these things from Parents, School, Monks and older people from an early age.

3) When I speak to Thai people they see Buddha as a God, but when I read a text book on Buddhism it always says he is not a God in the Western sense. But my idea is the ordinary people see him as a God more or less in the Western sense. Is this correct?

Buddha does not control people. Thai people can believe in him but think and do for themselves. Buddha can teach people to have good luck and good life, to have quiet. In Thailand, we believe God didn't do anything (creation), Buddha didn't to create anything. Buddha is someone who had a good life, so we want to believe in Buddha and have a good life like Buddha. We want to have a better rebirth.

4) People put flowers at home to honour Buddha. So I think the general idea is that Buddha is somehow stil there, in some kind of heaven, sees that you are doing good and will give you good luck. Is this correct? Buddha is seen as still being there and listening to prayers?

The cut flowers in the house are used to beautify the area of the Buddha statue. We want the Buddha statue to have color, the same with the Wat. We want the Wat to look beautify and inviting, lots of color. We don't do it for the dead Buddha or Living Buddha, whatever that is. We do it for the living Monks, for the people visiting.

I don't know that Buddha listens to people praying, why would he listen to people.

People can read what the Buddha said about how to have a good life.

// and that's what my Thai friend said.

[HLover]

Did the view talay project built in front of Jomtien complex receive a blessing before being built?

[kaorop]

Three replies so far and none of them addresses my four questions. Hmmm. Interesting phenomenon. Rarely experienced by me.

Pleas reply as follows.

My answer to your question 1) is...

My answer to your question 2) is...

etc

Thanks.

why cant you do your own research and study?

you know google, wiki.............even get some books and read

demanding to be handfed, lol, how old are you?

thanks

[camerata]

1. I'll go with RichCor's answer on this one.

2. Shrines in gardens are dedicated to the spirits of the land in that particular place. This is pre-Buddhist indigenous religion, part of Thai spiritual belief but not Buddhism per se. The statues represent the spirits, not ancestors. One has to keep the spirits of the area happy with offerings. A good book on this is Thailand - Spirits Among Us.

3. Different people would give you different answers to this. According to Becoming the Buddha, many Thais feel there is a powerful spirit inside a consecrated Buddha image, but not necessarily the Buddha himself.

4. Offering flowers to arahants (enlightened beings) is mentioned in some Buddhist texts as bringing great merit. This may be why people do it. Buddhists "take refuge" in the Buddha, the Dharma (teachings) and the Sangha (monastic community). Since the Buddha isn't here in person, they have to make do with an image.

[zeichen]

The problem is that your questions aren't very good ones. You are asking questions from a perspective that a Thai wouldn't quite get.

As others have stated, There are 2 main streams of Budhism, In Theravada Buddhism there are many diverse teachings and paths.

The religion vs philosophy debate is really pointless, as is the is Buddha a God or not. Praying to Buddha, isn't the same as praying to a God.

Richcor, Taco guy and camerata all gave reasonable responses, there is as much variation in belief the ritual might be the same but the motivation or the depth of understanding is different.

To be fully honest most that refill the food and water at these shrines do it out of ritual and not depth of belief. Do you really think that these shrines in front of every whore house and bar are really doing it for Buddha's blessing?

You will also see offerings on the side of roads where a family member was killed by a car. If you asked the person why they are doing it, they will answer because I am Buddhist and that is what we do. Most lay people aren't going to be able to answer in depth.

If you want to have a deep understanding, then you need to go to a temple and learn from a monk.

lay people aren't going to be able to answer anything to your satisfaction.

[Goosood]

I think it will be difficult to 'answer' your questions, as what a foreigner 'sees' or 'perceives' may not be what you believe is happening.

I'm asking a Thai friend to answer your questions. He may not fully understand the question (certainly doesn't understand the 'western' perspective) but here goes:

a good life.

// and that's what my Thai friend said.

I want to say "Thank you very much. Very helpful."

Very interesting to learn that Thai Buddhist do not pray to Buddha, and think he doesn't listen to people. He only is for them a teacher who once lived and is now gone.

[Goosood]

Praying to Buddha, isn't the same as praying to a God.

What is the difference? Many Thai say "I hope Buddha gives me good luck".

(But another Thai on this forum doesn't believe at all that Buddha is still there somewhere and listening to prayers.)

But what do you think is happening when a Thai prays to Buddha? it must at least mean that person thinks Buddha is still there somewhere (nirvana, heaven) and listens. Why else pray to him?

But then there isn't much difference with praying to a God in my opinion.

[DogNo1]

Welcome to the world of syncretized religion. Thai Buddhism has incorporated many local beliefs and superstition as well as a lot of Hinduism. Some Thais are not aware that the trimurti statue (Rama, Krishna, Vishnu) in front of Central World, along with the Statue of Ganesh are not Buddhist but are actually representations of Hindu gods. The same goes for the statue at the Rajaprasong intersection by the Erawan Hotel.

[RichCor]

Praying to Buddha, isn't the same as praying to a God.

What is the difference? Many Thai say "I hope Buddha gives me good luck".

(But another Thai on this forum doesn't believe at all that Buddha is still there somewhere and listening to prayers.)

But what do you think is happening when a Thai prays to Buddha? it must at least mean that person thinks Buddha is still there somewhere (nirvana, heaven) and listens. Why else pray to him?

But then there isn't much difference with praying to a God in my opinion.

It's difficult for some Asians to describe what they are actually doing to a 'westerner' due to lack of common reference. So saying they are 'praying' to Buddha may be said to 'simplify' the communication, but no such 'prayer' to a person or spirit is actually taking place.

When you see an Asian Buddhist place their hands together in the classic pray position, while this may resemble western prayer, there isn't really any petition (asking a deity for benefits) going on.

They do it out of reverence to the teachings. If in a group, It's also a 'cue' to others that a particular ritual is taking place.

Buddhists take up hands when

Reciting any one of many Sanskrit teaching texts

Cultivating lovingkindness by repeating phrases like “May all beings be well; May all beings be happy, ...”

Do what some westerners think of as "Practicing the power of positive thought"

Begin or end silent Mindfulness meditation

Showing reverence to a Monk or to a teaching

[faraday]

I think you'll find there is no 'one' way that people interpret what is 'Buddhism' or how it should be practiced.

As the story goes, when 'Buddhism' makes its way across cultures over time it is almost forced to take on parts of that existing culture and customs to become as 'part of the Buddhist practice' so not to be thought of as being 'too foreign' to be accepted. You will probably find the beliefs a mix of animism, Hinduism, Buddhism, with some Chinese beliefs imported for good measure.

c

Even though I think of these 'offerings' to the spirits (or spirit statues) as non-Buddhist, there is something to be learned from the behavior.

What "is" food? - Something that provides nutritional, emotional & Spiritual nourishment.

When does it 'become' food? - When it achieves this.

Who does this food belong to? - To the person or Deity that you have transferred ownership to.

How 'attached' are you to it being 'food', needing to be eaten. ??

When does it become 'waste/wasted'. -When it doesn't provide the above aforemententioned.

If someone creates something and it looks like 'food', are there restrictions to what can.

Is it helpful to honor the memory of those you once knew? -Yes

Is it helpful to honor the memory of your ancestors? Of what they accomplished and passed on to you? - Yes

Is there an 'upside' to this behavior?

Is there a 'downside' to this behavior?

Is the behavior neutral?

(By the way, this goes over the head of most of my friends. Though some long-time practitioners probably know what I'm on about)

I'm not sure how many Thais there are that are experts in their own culture, or Buddhist Monks that are experts in what is and isn't Thai Buddhism. I know many Buddhist Monks who make their living off fortune telling and blessing people's newly acquired personal property. What gets called Thai Buddhism appears to be vast and wide, and sometime quick and loose.

And I always think is best to ask the people of that custom and culture what this is, why is it here. Make friends.

[zeichen]

Christians and westerners pray to their monotheistic god for blessings, interference, and saving.

I don't think that most Thais pray in the same way. They pray and contemplate on blessings but don't really think that someone will intervene. Just that things will unfold as they should based on one's path.

You keep using different cultural and religious foundation for your questions.

In Thai budhism there are different hells for punishment and there is a heaven, but at the same time they are not the same as a western christian understanding.

My only real advice is for you to go to a temple and really study with the Sangha. No lay person is going to be able to explain things in a way that you can fully grasp.

[Goosood]

In Thai budhism there are different hells for punishment and there is a heaven, but at the same time they are not the same as a western christian understanding.

My only real advice is for you to go to a temple and really study with the Sangha. No lay person is going to be able to explain things in a way that you can fully grasp.

Thanks. But I only need to know what the average Thai thinks. They are lay people too. They know what they themselves think and how they understand it. They have ideas about this so called hell. A concept which I think violates Buddhism. Because even bad people are reborn. Or only after 1 million years in hell? They must have ideas about that.

[RichCor]

In Thai budhism there are different hells for punishment and there is a heaven, but at the same time they are not the same as a western christian understanding.

My only real advice is for you to go to a temple and really study with the Sangha. No lay person is going to be able to explain things in a way that you can fully grasp.

Thanks. But I only need to know what the average Thai thinks. They are lay people too. They know what they themselves think and how they understand it. They have ideas about this so called hell. A concept which I think violates Buddhism. Because even bad people are reborn. Or only after 1 million years in hell? They must have ideas about that.

I agree with zeichen, You keep using different cultural and religious foundation for your questions (and trying to apply them to Thai Buddhist belief and practice).

If you have read anything indepth about Buddhism and Buddhist 'concepts', you will soon encounter Buddhist cosmology specific to Theravadan school of belief or the wider Buddhist cosmology where it describes the 31 planes (or relms) of existence in samsara, that include the desire relms of Heaven, Earth, and Hell, that can occur with each rebirth.

Not sure where you are going with your line of thinking.

[zeichen]

My point about going to the sangha, is that Lay people ie, locals don't have the in depth knowledge to bridge your gaps of cultural misunderstandings. Most people don't think beyond the ritual. They do it because that is how they were taught. They repeat the chants do the rituals but don't often think of why, who or what they are doing beyond that.

Who are you praying to "I am just praying" But who hears it? "I don't know, Buddha?" It isn't that they actually think that Buddha is hearing their prayers, they just don't have any depth of understanding to the question so they answer something that might end the conversation.

You have to understand that 98% of the population might be Buddhist out of default. There might be less than 10% that are actually devout or have done any studying outside of the basic 5 precepts. Most could tell you some of the stories or tripitaka, but they wouldn't think deeply beyond those.

In the US, most people know who Jesus was, why he was crucified and know most of the 10 commandments, but since most aren't practicing Christians, they wouldn't know why things are done, who or why baptism is important. The same is with people here.

Your questions are so unrelated to the cultural understandings of Buddhism that is practiced here, that no lay person/ ie local could ever give you a satisfactory answer.

Goosood said

"They know what they themselves think and how they understand it. They have ideas about this so called hell. A concept which I think violates Buddhism. Because even bad people are reborn. Or only after 1 million years in hell? They must have ideas about that."

No, they actually don't. The average person doesn't understand it, the average person just follows the rituals.

There is no so called Hell, there is their understanding of the realm of hell. A concept that doesn't violate anything.

There isn't one Buddhism. There isn't one rule that says if you don't believe or practice this way, you are not a buddhist.

In Thailand females can be nuns but not monks. In Mahayana Buddhism, women can be monks.

Even different temples and orders of monks in Thailand follow certain practices more stringent than others.

"Because even bad people are reborn. Or only after 1 million years in hell? They must have ideas about that."

No, I don't think that the average person does have ideas about that. I don't think the average person thinks beyond their next paycheck.

Monks contemplate these things, scholars think about these things. Average people do not.

[tifino]

in Thai Buddhism, there's this lateral 'holy' trilogy thinking:

the Mr Buddha

the Mr Merit

and the Mr Karma

get all three on-side, oh! and keep mrs happy - and you should now have all the good luck you ever wished for....

[Goosood]

Thank you. I get to understand it more and more. I have learned a lot. I mean it !

[Goosood]

Sorry, last two questions and then I will stop. I can imagine your guys get a bit tired of me. But I have learned a lot. My complete ignorance of a few days ago is gone.

1) If as you say Thai praying is different than the praying which for example Christians do, then what is the purpose of praying for a Thai? I mean if no God/spirit listens then why pray? What gain does it give the person? A better Karma? But for Karma to be enhanced does that happen automatically when you do good? There is no conscious Being involved which sees you doing good and adding to your Karma? So it is just a process of nature. When you do good Karma is incremented automatically? Like when you drop a ball it will fall to the ground by law of nature, without any active involvement of a God? So when a Thai prays and goes to Temple it is only for a few Karma 'coins' to be added to his balance and he thinks that goes automatically?

2) I do have a Thai friend who says "I bought flowers for Buddha today. I hope it gives me good luck".

Until now I interpreted this that he thinks Buddha is still there and watches him and sometimes is actively involved in giving him good luck. If that interpretation is wrong, then what does he mean when he says this?

[tifino]

the appearance of 'praying' is really just giving reverence, or should I say - deference? towards the thoughts of the wiseman

Real charity means to give $/help/etc to someone in need, and not expecting anything (of substance) in return

Thai charity means you are buying 'X' quantity of commercial grade karma - in return for whatever you have handed over - a simple transaction.

Throw a stick for a dog, and you are rewarded in the return of the stick

Throw a stick at a dog, and it'll come back and bite you in the 'rse

[TheFishman1]

Try talking to a monk google it and each country has there own way of practicing this releigion here they do put there own tist on it

[Tadpole44]

I believe that all these rituals (including religion) gives one "peace of mind".

[johninbkk71]

Thai Buddhism is unique a mix of old beliefs from before Buddhism and after. Buddhist monks don't eat meat, smoke, drink coffee, etc. In Thailand you will see this and more that contradicts Buddhism. Hindu statues in a Buddhist temple?