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Crackdown On Tesco Lotus, Carrefour, Big C, 7-11


george

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I don't see slowing the expansion of the Big Box stores as a shame .... in the USA theyhave been fighting this battle against WalMart for years!

However WalMart would move into some areas killing the little specialty stores <hardware, plumbing, etc etc> and after those stores were gone and their sales didn't meet projections they woul close the big box store ... leaving the community with nothing!

What you dont understand and the big difference between what is going on here and the Walmart analogy is the fact that you can buy any of the products that Walmart sells at the mom and pop places.

Many mom and pop stores here do not sell refrigerated meats and poultry personally I dont like to buy my beef off a table with a woman swinging a stick and a plastic bag......... as a result I drive 70 km to the nearest Lotus.

We have only one mom and pop place and they have plastered the community with signs urging people and goverenment to stop the building of a nearby Lotus. This mom and pop store treat most customers like crap never a smile very poor selection and pricing.

A nearby Lotus would do a lot to raise my family's standard of living.

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I don't see slowing the expansion of the Big Box stores as a shame .... in the USA theyhave been fighting this battle against WalMart for years!

However WalMart would move into some areas killing the little specialty stores <hardware, plumbing, etc etc> and after those stores were gone and their sales didn't meet projections they woul close the big box store ... leaving the community with nothing!

What you dont understand and the big difference between what is going on here and the Walmart analogy is the fact that you can buy any of the products that Walmart sells at the mom and pop places.

Many mom and pop stores here do not sell refrigerated meats and poultry personally I dont like to buy my beef off a table with a woman swinging a stick and a plastic bag......... as a result I drive 70 km to the nearest Lotus.

We have only one mom and pop place and they have plastered the community with signs urging people and goverenment to stop the building of a nearby Lotus. This mom and pop store treat most customers like crap never a smile very poor selection and pricing.

A nearby Lotus would do a lot to raise my family's standard of living.

It may well be that the Supermarket Giants grow because people support them. But that is a fallacious argument. The correct statement is that people shop there because they have no choice. None whatsoever.

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Good for the Thai Gov't. It's not fair for the big retailers to come in, provide better goods at lower prices, and destroy our business.

In fact, if the US Gov't doesn't do something to stop all of those d@mned computer retailers, our business could be in big trouble soon!

Smith Corona :o

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I don't see slowing the expansion of the Big Box stores as a shame .... in the USA theyhave been fighting this battle against WalMart for years!

However WalMart would move into some areas killing the little specialty stores <hardware, plumbing, etc etc> and after those stores were gone and their sales didn't meet projections they woul close the big box store ... leaving the community with nothing!

What you dont understand and the big difference between what is going on here and the Walmart analogy is the fact that you can buy any of the products that Walmart sells at the mom and pop places.

Many mom and pop stores here do not sell refrigerated meats and poultry personally I dont like to buy my beef off a table with a woman swinging a stick and a plastic bag......... as a result I drive 70 km to the nearest Lotus.

We have only one mom and pop place and they have plastered the community with signs urging people and goverenment to stop the building of a nearby Lotus. This mom and pop store treat most customers like crap never a smile very poor selection and pricing.

A nearby Lotus would do a lot to raise my family's standard of living.

So it begs the question .......... WHY did you move 70km's away from something you feel like you need?

Back to the original post .... 'temporary'

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I don't see this as a big deal. I like the small chinese stores anyway. The big stores don't carry anything different then the small stores anyway, just more of it and the prices are about the same. I don't need 5 aisles of 5 baht noodles, cooking oils and condiments. It just wastes my times wading thru all that junk. Give me a small convenient store anytime. Those big box stores here are very useless. I do like 7/11 though

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Big stores = big tax revenues. End of story (after the elections).

If you can't evolve and adapt in your business or profession... you just slide down the food chain, that's natural selection.

:o

Edited by Heng
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This problem is global and so there is nothing new. The small businesses always suffer when the biggie moves in, rightly or wrongly. However, people should be free to conduct their lawful business according to their business practices. It is unwise for government to intervene unless they can identify a reasonable breach of social policy. Personally, I do not like supermarkets but I will shop there for the obvious convenience and economy of scale. But only for certain items. I will attempt to shop in street stalls on every occasion despite charge differential for tourists and the quality variance. Why? Because they are far more interesting and there is more to shopping than simply buying goods. No one makes you walk into Carrefour, Tesco Lotus nor Big C. So don't.. just go down to the corner shop. There is room for all traders in BKK and the people living there must be able to freely choose where they go. Thai people are adaptable and resilient and the street stalls will survive against the conglomerates. In my own country, who would ever think that large food chains such as McD's & KFC would ever close. But they are.

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When the big stores moves in to a new area, land prices rise. Other stores want to be close due to all the traffic and also residential homes close by can seem more desirable. This is especially true in areas where there isn't another large store for many many miles.

The two new stores that were being constucted in Samui will make samui more desirable to live in. I was looking forward to them opening, I like to get value for money and the service is generally better in these places than smaller shops although there are exceptions.

Mom and pop shops in Thailand do not benefit the consumer. The range of goods is lousey, they are over priced and service is more often than not unfriendly, I have no sympathy for the majority of these store owners.

The specialist shops in UK such as butchers, fish mongers and green grocers usually provided great personal service and excellant range of goods, although pricy compared to supermarket goods. Most of their goods were tastier than the mass produced rubbish usually available in supermarkets, although supermarkets have improved in recent years due to the fact they were loosing market share back to the specialist shops that remained.

The average Thai person would be far better off with more of these supermarkets. They have more choice and it's cheaper.

The only people who benefit from mom and pop shops are the owners. These shops will have to learn and adapt, they would find more customer loyalty if they were friendlier. It seems to me that most store owners here do not value the customer enough.

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Didn't this crack down happen before, if my memroy serves me right? So they have resurrected it for the latest political games?

Am I for or against these superstores? Well it comes down to keeping Thailand quaint and old wordly like we all love versus all the conveniences of living in the modern world? Or is it a case of the land of a million entrueprenuers being ousted by large corporates, and Thailand becomes like the UK/US/AUZ? I mean no small businesses or shops and everything is expensive? Hopefully with the Thai entreprenual spirit something in between will happen, but you can't stop the march of progress?

I personally remember Thailand 10 years ago; back then it was very difficult to get some things and life was often not easy and uncomfortable. Now you can pretty much get everything you want, and it is a nice balance between the old and modern worlds? Just look at how many trucks are on the roads; this really gives an indication of how things have changed.

The superstores cannot offer the fresh produce that the markets do. Also the prepared food is no where as tasty as buying off food vendors in the street. I prefer the food in the chinese shop house restraunts to the supermarket food courts. Thus will the supermarkets ever win in these areas?

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Good for the Thai Gov't. It's not fair for the big retailers to come in, provide better goods at lower prices, and destroy our business.

In fact, if the US Gov't doesn't do something to stop all of those d@mned computer retailers, our business could be in big trouble soon!

Smith Corona :o

good one :D

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I don't see slowing the expansion of the Big Box stores as a shame .... in the USA theyhave been fighting this battle against WalMart for years!

However WalMart would move into some areas killing the little specialty stores <hardware, plumbing, etc etc> and after those stores were gone and their sales didn't meet projections they woul close the big box store ... leaving the community with nothing!

What you dont understand and the big difference between what is going on here and the Walmart analogy is the fact that you can buy any of the products that Walmart sells at the mom and pop places.

Many mom and pop stores here do not sell refrigerated meats and poultry personally I dont like to buy my beef off a table with a woman swinging a stick and a plastic bag......... as a result I drive 70 km to the nearest Lotus.

We have only one mom and pop place and they have plastered the community with signs urging people and goverenment to stop the building of a nearby Lotus. This mom and pop store treat most customers like crap never a smile very poor selection and pricing.

A nearby Lotus would do a lot to raise my family's standard of living.

It may well be that the Supermarket Giants grow because people support them. But that is a fallacious argument. The correct statement is that people shop there because they have no choice. None whatsoever.

I'd be surprised if you actually live in Thailand. More Thai people shop mom-n-pop because they have no choice; not the other way around.

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The countdown is on for the new Carrefour store in Patong (Phuket) to open. I believe I'm correct in saying that the building is complete and that they've contracted some 300 staff. Will this be halted? I don't think so, but if it is, then there's going to be a lot of very disapointed Thai people trying to find employment.

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Large corporate stores are the best for the majority of people. The equation is simple. Buy in bulk cheaper and sell cheaper. Walmart makes billions but they do so on a very small percentage markup. This is great for the consumers. I've found that most of the people who rail against the big corporations normally haven't accomplished much in their lives and need someone (or something) to blame. Just my opinion.

I guess we could go back to 2 cans and a length of string....... :o

We could debate on whether the world is better off for the majority of people because of the existence of large corporate stores ad nauseum. But rest assured, although Walmart does use its size to squeeze vendors to accept low margins, their own retail margins are not low. If you are in the US, you can watch CNBC's David Faber's excellent report on Walmart which is shown often, where Walmart managers talk about margins being well over 40%. Costco uses margins of about 12-15% in their business model. That is a low margin.

And your last opinion is effused with enough arrogance as to be laughable as it really boils down to simply that those who disagree with you are, in your personal opinion, losers.

Edited by Johpa
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Good thread.

In the end there is a mixture of exsisting superstores and small retail......the edict is about "expansion" not contraction.

There is a lot of argument in the West as to the effects of super/hyperstores on the local economy and it does seem sensible that Thai politicians look at the situation and adjust it to suit the country's economic model.

A good look at the arguments against stores like Walmart is by John Lanchester "The price of pickles" in the London Review of Books The price of pickles

As a family here in ChiangMai we shop day by day at the local market, early in the morning (then you avoid the wilted vegetables :D ) and use big stores for dry goods, kitchen paper, oil, sauces, dog food etc. We do like the Deli and imported stuff from Rimping (cheese and wine) though these are relatively expensive anyway due to tax on the wine and importing.

What is neat here is that there are so many markets still going strong and it would be a shame to lose that over the long term.

I would hope Thailand does not have to blindly follow every Western trend and can maintain a diverse economy.

What impressed me in Carrefour (which we don't go to at all often) was the Doi Kham (Royal Project ) produce being sold there which is local to us and not food imported from China.

Tesco Lotus and there are two in ChiangMai, is less inspiring and is good for bulk buys. They push on with the "roll back prices" idea which is a staple of the supermarket creed that does put pressure on smaller businesses.

As to franchise businesses that is another matter. I'm personally not keen on them and relish people doing their own thing and keeping their individuality.

I'd have thought that the best thing about Thailand for all of us is that it is the East, and for us somewhat exotic.......there isn't much of that in Tesco is there :o

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I went out to buy Robert Harris's new book 'Imperium' today. I could have bought it from WH Smith or Waterstones (both book shops) and paid the cover price (£17.99). Instead I went to Asda (owned by Walmart) and paid £9.96, a saving which will allow me to buy another book when I've finished it. More power to them.

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Sorry, but I didn't read this entire thread. I just posted this on another, similar thread:

The protest against big box, multinational stores is not only an issue in Thailand. Communities have protested and debated them in the U.S., and France only allows them in controlled and balanced measures. It is a huge urban planning issue.

There is a lot of merit in the arguments against uncontrolled proliferation of big box stores. They do alter the local economies, and usually not for the best in regard to the surrounding community and lower income people. As an urban planner in the states, I have supported some communities against big box store development.

However, in the context of Thailand, and what others have described against mom and pop stores here, I can totally understand. There is no planning here, and there is no concept of healthy or fair competition. If you abuse your customer base on the basis of something akin to a monopoly or *price fixing collusion, then I say bring on the competition, and maybe then people will learn how to treat their customers. However, if there was planning here, I'd like to see something along the lines of controlled and planned big box location, because it is always a bad idea to wipe out the local economy full scale. It presents a host of entirely different problems.

*edit

Edited by kat
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I don't see slowing the expansion of the Big Box stores as a shame .... in the USA theyhave been fighting this battle against WalMart for years!

However WalMart would move into some areas killing the little specialty stores <hardware, plumbing, etc etc> and after those stores were gone and their sales didn't meet projections they woul close the big box store ... leaving the community with nothing!

I was in Tesco / Lotus just the other day in Bangkapi. I was suprised to see the very same banners, aisle directories, and shelf tags that Wal-Mart uses in the US. Any connection between the 2 companies? Maybe the Thais became wise to "Wally World" sooner than Americans did. I work for a company in the US who supplies Wal-Mart. They arrange 2 or more suppliers for a product and then threaten to take business away unless the suppliers lower their price. I could go on about all the criminal things they have done like hiring illegal workers from Mexico, not paying overtime pay for overtime work, etc., but it's all been in the news before. Sam Walton would be ashamed at what his company has become.

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I work for a company in the US who supplies Wal-Mart. They arrange 2 or more suppliers for a product and then threaten to take business away unless the suppliers lower their price. I could go on about all the criminal things they have done like hiring illegal workers from Mexico, not paying overtime pay for overtime work, etc., but it's all been in the news before. Sam Walton would be ashamed at what his company has become.

I'm sorry, but you miss the point : did you ask americans if they like shopping at Walmart ?

Do they hate or love Walmart ?

This is democracy in action : "power to the number" or... "dictature of the number"...

Against 250 millions happy shoppers, dozen of thousands of suppliers (or small retailers) who are squizzed are irrelevant.

However, I don't say that it's a good system (because actually it becomes a monopoly, soviet style).

How ironic in the USA, isn't ?

But this is another discussion...

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Guys try and look at the greater picture. I don’t have any insight in why this decision was made except for the fact that I don’t believe that Thailand is ready for the super efficient hyper marts yet. I don’t live in Thailand and I just visit as a tourist with my Thai wife. But one thing is striking to me even in Bangkok and that is the gross inefficiency in use of manual labour and in the size of shops. There are so many small shops selling a specialized kind of stuff and if you count the number of people employed in these small shops you will see that a very high number of people work these places.

This is not very different from what it must have looked like here in Denmark and any other western country 40-50 years ago. I also think that it is inevitable that Thailand wil come to look like the western countries but the problem with the hyper marts is that here in the western countries we had a middle step the small local supermarkets and I see a danger that many people could loose their jobs without a real possibility for getting another if too many of these market pop up all over the place.

On the other hand I du agree that there is gigantic gains possible in the way people shop and there must also be much to save when supermarkets make a real entry into the market. But I just hope that it will be a gradual introduction so that the economy will can adapt and the small shop owners can have a chance to adjust their shops.

BTW here in Denmark we have a law that says no supermarkets over 3000 sqm can be build. This law was made to stop the introduction of to many gigantic supermarkets. Also we had a long saga between the largest hyper mart chain and the state over a supermarket that were over 3000 sqm and the state demanded it to be torn down (eventually it was allowed to be standing as it had been approved by local government)

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Large corporate stores are the best for the majority of people. The equation is simple. Buy in bulk cheaper and sell cheaper. Walmart makes billions but they do so on a very small percentage markup. This is great for the consumers. I've found that most of the people who rail against the big corporations normally haven't accomplished much in their lives and need someone (or something) to blame. Just my opinion.

I guess we could go back to 2 cans and a length of string....... :o

We could debate on whether the world is better off for the majority of people because of the existence of large corporate stores ad nauseum. But rest assured, although Walmart does use its size to squeeze vendors to accept low margins, their own retail margins are not low. If you are in the US, you can watch CNBC's David Faber's excellent report on Walmart which is shown often, where Walmart managers talk about margins being well over 40%. Costco uses margins of about 12-15% in their business model. That is a low margin.

And your last opinion is effused with enough arrogance as to be laughable as it really boils down to simply that those who disagree with you are, in your personal opinion, losers.

Sorry it came off that way; I should have used different wording. I didn't mean to infer that someone who disagrees with me is a loser :D

In my life of growing up in the US I've seen one 'loser' group (yes my opinion) after another bitch about the sorry state of affairs and they ALWAYS point the finger somewhere other than the mirror. A perfect example is the skin-head Nazi who blame the Jews and blacks for all their problems.

I probably picked a poor topic but it seems there are always people who come out of the woodwork and rail against ANYONE/ANYTHING more successful than themselves.

Anyway back on topic; as a consumer this post sums it up for me:

I went out to buy Robert Harris's new book 'Imperium' today. I could have bought it from WH Smith or Waterstones (both book shops) and paid the cover price (£17.99). Instead I went to Asda (owned by Walmart) and paid £9.96, a saving which will allow me to buy another book when I've finished it. More power to them.

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I don't understand these people who are defending the policy .... where do you think you're going to find 2 tiered pricing? A mom and pop shop or a multinational?

Wake up.

As much as I hate protectionism, this is good news for us!!!

This country will continue to remain cheap for us for a long long time... :D

And I will continue to shop at Tesco Lotus, Carrefour, Big C, 7-11 and avoid the small stores at all cost :o:D:D

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Well in the US Walmart has a bad reputation as one that treats it's employees poorly. I'm pretty sure that those working in Tesco Lotus etc in Thailand are thankful for their jobs. I've seen plenty of people shopping in these places and I frequent them with my wife when I'm in Bangkok, Khon Kaen and I would find these cities to be much less enjoyable if it wasn't for these places. Again if you leave it up to local stores you're going to find yourself being asked to pay more because it's assumed you have more money to spend than a local.

If you want to encourage two tiered pricing. One where foreigners are charged more just because they are foreigners than look no further than mom and pop shops. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of small shops that don't try to rip off foreigners but taking away fixed prices will mean it's up to the proprietor to set the pricing and anybody who's been in Thailand longer than a typical 2 week vacation knows what that means.

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Well in the US Walmart has a bad reputation as one that treats it's employees poorly. I'm pretty sure that those working in Tesco Lotus etc in Thailand are thankful for their jobs. I've seen plenty of people shopping in these places and I frequent them with my wife when I'm in Bangkok, Khon Kaen and I would find these cities to be much less enjoyable if it wasn't for these places. Again if you leave it up to local stores you're going to find yourself being asked to pay more because it's assumed you have more money to spend than a local.

If you want to encourage two tiered pricing. One where foreigners are charged more just because they are foreigners than look no further than mom and pop shops. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of small shops that don't try to rip off foreigners but taking away fixed prices will mean it's up to the proprietor to set the pricing and anybody who's been in Thailand longer than a typical 2 week vacation knows what that means.

Good post. Yes Walmart in the states has some negatives no doubt but the bottom line is good prices for the consumer.

This is a Thai forum and I'm glad Tesco is here. When I go the the wife's village we always take food with us (from Tesco). I got tired of seeing the guy at the local store scratch his arse, pick his nose, and then handle our food. :o In addition he moves slightly slower than a pregnant turtle.

My wife recently bought some underwear (for her brother) at a mom-n-pop. The size of the underwear didn't match the size printed on the box. Think they exchanged?

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The investment from retailers was planned more on the smaller format: TESCO Express and 7-11.

Is it protectionnist or a populist decision ? ... good question.

7-11 is also affected ... so ...

I am quite amazed that 7-11 was lumped into this decision. The Thai 7-11 franchises were quite affordable (2m baht) and this allowed for investment by quite a few middle-class Thais. The expansion of 7-11 stores all over the country is testimony of the investment activity by both Thais and farangs. My Thai partner and I were getting ready to buy two 7-11 stores. The seemingly capricious way that the government made this decision certainly gives me pause about investing in any business in Thailand. If this is posturing by the government, it could come at a heavy price for the Thai people because every new business creates jobs and generates tax money for the government.

I don;t think it's capricious. They just don't care about the logic in it - or don't use yours anyway. How many 7/11 stores can dodge paying taxes on earnings - never mind the GST/VAT? Compare that with Mom and Pop shop next door. You reckon they pay tax or GST/VAT?

As I've said over and over - these guys DON'T CARE about whether Thailand is getting its fair tax revenue. I mean come on, Mr T just made a huge windfall and didn't pay any tax!

These guys don't care about anything other than access to the government procurement contracts and big business partnerships that they can influence for their own enrichment. Did Thailand really need a new airport? Wouldn't an additional terminal building or two have worked? No these guys know exactly what they're doing. And it has been done quite masterfully, because they've managed to get the majority of the population actually believing that they are governing with with the best interests of poor, regular Thais.

This is a dangerous time for foreigners here I think..Mr T wouldn't think twice about playing the 'evil, exploitaive, farang' card - and may already be doing so. Thus the swipe at multi-national food stores. In 1997 crash, these guys were all up in Hong Kong selling the Baht short - then in public they were blaming guys like Soros for the currency collapse. Steal a country, pretend you have the same 'faith' -then blame the fall out on someone else. Too smart by half.. :o

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As some have noted, the development of these large retailers is a rather recent development in the western countries. One can argue that Walmart does allow the lower classes to purchase goods for less money and thus provides an economic benefit to society. But one can also ask as to what cost. Certainly in the US midwest, the arrival of Walmart in the late 1960s and into the 1970s eviscerated the small towns, eliminating their downtown cores and thus eliminating associated professional businesses such as local newspapers, local professionals such as accountants and lawyers, and other local professionals who needed a community to co-exist from an economic point of view. Were the financial savings worth more than the existence of a local community? And how do we measure the social cost?

Thailand is not at the same economic stage as the US and may or may not go through similar stages, so the long term effect upon the economy is still unknown. Most of Thailand is rural poor, people who do not shop at these megastores located in the major cities. They do not have the ability to travel to the main cities nor do they have the ability to purchase in bulk. In the US Walmart serves the vast lower and lower middle class population. In Thailand these stores serve the smaller middle class. The cost of goods for the people in the mubaans has not lowered and in fact as gone up a bit as the cost of small shop shops purchasing at true wholesale has risen a bit as traditional wholesalers have also been hurt by the large stores. So although a bit of a boon to the newer Thai middle class and many of you ex-pats who are not comfortable with the older style of Thai shopping, these stores are welcome, but there has been little if any benefit, perhaps even an increase in the cost of living, to the rural poor.

My biggest concern is that these large stores ship profits out of Thailand back overseas. Although having wide aisles and clean floors are seen as "development" by many posters here, once again one must ask as to what cost to development are there in other areas such as schools and rural infrastructure as profits are directed outside the country. Is there a net gain to the social good when the savings are equaled by the loss of profits for local usage and reinvestment? There are no easy answers here.

Nobody loves me buy my mother, and she might be jiving too. So how can I not but most graciously accept an apology from a fellow blues fan.

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I agree with Johpa that there are some bigger deals at stake here than farangs' preferences between corner shops and mega-chains owned by overseas interests.

Untrammelled development of chainstores in Australia has meant virtual price control of supermarket merchandise, with most of the profits going offshore. Fuel outlets are also increasingly controlled by Coles-Myer or Woolworths (or other chains vertically integrated with these big two). The big two have also developed banking interests. The managerial interests of shopping complexes built around the big-two's stores control which specialty chains can operate within shopping complexes, what these "specialty" shops can sell, how they must "brand", which movies are shown at the Cineplexes within shopping centres, etc.....In other words consumer choice and power is actually being eroded especially for the poor: financially by price-monopoly, and culturally by the increasing necessity for time-and-money-saving "one stop" shopping.

As has been pointed out, there is no financial or logical necessity that a few 711's or Carrefours or Tesco-Loti will impose the same conditions in this kingdom, where "development" and business are managed differently. However, when large profits are going offshore I can appreciate the concern of the Thai government to nip this triffid in the bud.

Edited by fruittbatt
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...My biggest concern is that these large stores ship profits out of Thailand back overseas....

Absolutely right. If this keeps up, there will hardly be enough revenue left in the country to pay all the usual bribes. Christ, we'll have government officials begging on the streets of Bangkok and that'll just make the traffic worse!

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Superstores to sign Commerce Ministry MoU to stop expansions

All giant superstores and retailer giants will sign a memorandum of understanding (MoU) next week with the Commerce Ministry to suspend their investment plans to expand their business until the Kingdom's first-ever Retail Business Law is approved and implemented.

At least 15 multinational retailers, including Tesco Lotus, Carrefour, Robinson, Big-C and 7-Eleven will jointly ink the MoU to stop new expansion projects.

The ministry and other related government agencies met with giant retailers Thursday to brainstorm for a way to ease the problems of small retailers.

The Nation

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