Warm Wine - Am I wasting my money?

[Naam]

I watch people in the beer bars enjoying red wine out of the box. I have tried to enjoy them, but cannot find any that, are to me, drinkable. But as I have said before, if anyone likes a wine, whether is it $1 a glass, in cardboard, or $5,000 a bottle, they should drink what they find satisfies them. If we all had the same palette, there would be just 2 wines, a red & a white, and they would probably say Gallo on the bottle. My go to red right now for special occasion is the Shiraz from Silver Lake Winery. For me, just excellent. Great body, acids are balanced, carries through with a great finish of chocolate mocha, with a very nice charcoal cherry in between.

i'd rather sip my Port with a good splash of phrik nam pla than tasting any wine with a finish of chocolate mocha. no objection though when it's chocolate mocha not adulterated with wine.

[northernphil]

Anyone thinking of going into Myanmar now beware. Last week a box of Stanley Cab .Shiraz was under 500B for 4L. Yesterday customs had put a sign up , only 2L per person , the wife got away with it this time but no more. Still Wolf Blass Cab. Sauv. at about 150B is ok, and Atlantic ciggies for 150B per carton is ok and the border crossing ( 30mins drive away ) is good for 40B to cross over.Oh and Jameson's whisky was 500B for a litre.

[stoli]

I watch people in the beer bars enjoying red wine out of the box. I have tried to enjoy them, but cannot find any that, are to me, drinkable. But as I have said before, if anyone likes a wine, whether is it $1 a glass, in cardboard, or $5,000 a bottle, they should drink what they find satisfies them. If we all had the same palette, there would be just 2 wines, a red & a white, and they would probably say Gallo on the bottle. My go to red right now for special occasion is the Shiraz from Silver Lake Winery. For me, just excellent. Great body, acids are balanced, carries through with a great finish of chocolate mocha, with a very nice charcoal cherry in between.

i'd rather sip my Port with a good splash of phrik nam pla than tasting any wine with a finish of chocolate mocha. no objection though when it's chocolate mocha not adulterated with wine.

They do not add chocolate mocha to the wines. There are many aromas and tastes associated with wines that come from the grape, the fermentation, and the yeast used. Just because a wine shows different flavors of mint, chocolate, cherries, blackberries, cassis, honey, lemon, lime, vanilla, pears, orange blossoms, just to name a few, does not in any way mean that these have been added to the wine. These flavors & aromas can be found in anything from Sauvignon Blanc to Cabernet Sauvignon, and only comes from the grapes. Wine should always be wine, without additives. With additives it is not wine. Some people never taste these flavors because they drink wine, as opposed to tasting wines. Drinking them is fine, and there is no need for you to evaluate wines as you drink them. It is just hard for me not to, after 10 years of being a Professional Wine Judge, now retired, to not taste them. Enjoy wine in any way that you wish. I am not preaching that anyone do it my way, or anyone else's way. Just enjoy. That is what wine is for. A good glass of Port right now sounds wonderful, but I bet if you taste it, you will find the taste of walnuts. No walnuts are added to Port. It just comes through naturally, and Is delicious. Cheers!

[Naam]

I watch people in the beer bars enjoying red wine out of the box. I have tried to enjoy them, but cannot find any that, are to me, drinkable. But as I have said before, if anyone likes a wine, whether is it $1 a glass, in cardboard, or $5,000 a bottle, they should drink what they find satisfies them. If we all had the same palette, there would be just 2 wines, a red & a white, and they would probably say Gallo on the bottle. My go to red right now for special occasion is the Shiraz from Silver Lake Winery. For me, just excellent. Great body, acids are balanced, carries through with a great finish of chocolate mocha, with a very nice charcoal cherry in between.

i'd rather sip my Port with a good splash of phrik nam pla than tasting any wine with a finish of chocolate mocha. no objection though when it's chocolate mocha not adulterated with wine.

They do not add chocolate mocha to the wines. There are many aromas and tastes associated with wines that come from the grape, the fermentation, and the yeast used. Just because a wine shows different flavors of mint, chocolate, cherries, blackberries, cassis, honey, lemon, lime, vanilla, pears, orange blossoms, just to name a few, does not in any way mean that these have been added to the wine. These flavors & aromas can be found in anything from Sauvignon Blanc to Cabernet Sauvignon, and only comes from the grapes. Wine should always be wine, without additives. With additives it is not wine. Some people never taste these flavors because they drink wine, as opposed to tasting wines. Drinking them is fine, and there is no need for you to evaluate wines as you drink them. It is just hard for me not to, after 10 years of being a Professional Wine Judge, now retired, to not taste them. Enjoy wine in any way that you wish. I am not preaching that anyone do it my way, or anyone else's way. Just enjoy. That is what wine is for. A good glass of Port right now sounds wonderful, but I bet if you taste it, you will find the taste of walnuts. No walnuts are added to Port. It just comes through naturally, and Is delicious. Cheers!

where did i mention that chocmoc is added to wine? apart from that most of the classifications (i only know the French and German expressions) are pure inventions based on hallucinations of "wine eggsburts".

it's not yet time for my daily Port but i claim that i never tasted any walnut. take that from a habitual and serial Port lover inspite of the ignorant warnings of my cardiologist.

p.s. i will also categorically deny that once in a while i enjoy an expensive Port over crushed ice with a touch of lime. if my wife claims that she saw me sipping that mixture... don't believe her! she uses these kind of stories to discredit me

[lvr181]

Optimal Wine Serving Temperatures :

White Wines: 45-50 °F or 7-10 °C

Red Wines: 50-65 °F or 10-18 °C

Rosé Wines: 45-55 °F or 7-13 °C

Sparkling Wines: 42-52 °F or 6-11 °C

Fortified Wines: 55-68 °F or 13-20 °C

Chateau de cardboard (boxed wine) is full of preservatives and is usually best drunk after about three months of being boxed and certainly before use by date! Preservatives can lead to big hangover feelings!

[GrantSmith]

I watch people in the beer bars enjoying red wine out of the box. I have tried to enjoy them, but cannot find any that, are to me, drinkable. But as I have said before, if anyone likes a wine, whether is it $1 a glass, in cardboard, or $5,000 a bottle, they should drink what they find satisfies them. If we all had the same palette, there would be just 2 wines, a red & a white, and they would probably say Gallo on the bottle. My go to red right now for special occasion is the Shiraz from Silver Lake Winery. For me, just excellent. Great body, acids are balanced, carries through with a great finish of chocolate mocha, with a very nice charcoal cherry in between.

i'd rather sip my Port with a good splash of phrik nam pla than tasting any wine with a finish of chocolate mocha. no objection though when it's chocolate mocha not adulterated with wine.

They do not add chocolate mocha to the wines. There are many aromas and tastes associated with wines that come from the grape, the fermentation, and the yeast used. Just because a wine shows different flavors of mint, chocolate, cherries, blackberries, cassis, honey, lemon, lime, vanilla, pears, orange blossoms, just to name a few, does not in any way mean that these have been added to the wine. These flavors & aromas can be found in anything from Sauvignon Blanc to Cabernet Sauvignon, and only comes from the grapes. Wine should always be wine, without additives. With additives it is not wine. Some people never taste these flavors because they drink wine, as opposed to tasting wines. Drinking them is fine, and there is no need for you to evaluate wines as you drink them. It is just hard for me not to, after 10 years of being a Professional Wine Judge, now retired, to not taste them. Enjoy wine in any way that you wish. I am not preaching that anyone do it my way, or anyone else's way. Just enjoy. That is what wine is for. A good glass of Port right now sounds wonderful, but I bet if you taste it, you will find the taste of walnuts. No walnuts are added to Port. It just comes through naturally, and Is delicious. Cheers!

Be interested to hear your thoughts - as an (albeit retired) wine judge - regarding these fruit wines being entered in wine shows, not being submitted into a 'Fruit Wine' category but up against proper wines.

Like you, my thoughts on the matter - if you want to drink them, go right ahead. My issue is with anyone marketing/selling these fruit wines as legitimate wine.

[stoli]

I watch people in the beer bars enjoying red wine out of the box. I have tried to enjoy them, but cannot find any that, are to me, drinkable. But as I have said before, if anyone likes a wine, whether is it $1 a glass, in cardboard, or $5,000 a bottle, they should drink what they find satisfies them. If we all had the same palette, there would be just 2 wines, a red & a white, and they would probably say Gallo on the bottle. My go to red right now for special occasion is the Shiraz from Silver Lake Winery. For me, just excellent. Great body, acids are balanced, carries through with a great finish of chocolate mocha, with a very nice charcoal cherry in between.

i'd rather sip my Port with a good splash of phrik nam pla than tasting any wine with a finish of chocolate mocha. no objection though when it's chocolate mocha not adulterated with wine.

They do not add chocolate mocha to the wines. There are many aromas and tastes associated with wines that come from the grape, the fermentation, and the yeast used. Just because a wine shows different flavors of mint, chocolate, cherries, blackberries, cassis, honey, lemon, lime, vanilla, pears, orange blossoms, just to name a few, does not in any way mean that these have been added to the wine. These flavors & aromas can be found in anything from Sauvignon Blanc to Cabernet Sauvignon, and only comes from the grapes. Wine should always be wine, without additives. With additives it is not wine. Some people never taste these flavors because they drink wine, as opposed to tasting wines. Drinking them is fine, and there is no need for you to evaluate wines as you drink them. It is just hard for me not to, after 10 years of being a Professional Wine Judge, now retired, to not taste them. Enjoy wine in any way that you wish. I am not preaching that anyone do it my way, or anyone else's way. Just enjoy. That is what wine is for. A good glass of Port right now sounds wonderful, but I bet if you taste it, you will find the taste of walnuts. No walnuts are added to Port. It just comes through naturally, and Is delicious. Cheers!

Be interested to hear your thoughts - as an (albeit retired) wine judge - regarding these fruit wines being entered in wine shows, not being submitted into a 'Fruit Wine' category but up against proper wines.

Like you, my thoughts on the matter - if you want to drink them, go right ahead. My issue is with anyone marketing/selling these fruit wines as legitimate wine.

I have never heard of a wine competition that would allow in its rules for any wine being adulterated. I have judged mainly in California & New York. Oregon & Washington competitions are growing every year. Some competitions are international, most are not. I have tasted wines in all 50 states, and I was impressed with Iowa, and their fruit wines. Delicious. But not a true wine, and would never be allowed to enter anything other than maybe the Ohio Open, if there is one. As you know, wine comes from grapes, and nothing else. You could not, in California, add anything to a wine and still call it a wine. The Federal Government has to approve each & every wine label, every year, and would not allow it to be called wine. As a winery, you wouldn't want to lie about it, because you would be caught, and your (wines?) removed from all of the shelves. As a side note, I would not mind seeing these fruit wines entered into a competition, because some are wonderful, but they could not be classified as anything other than "Fruit Wine", so the public is not fooled into believing they are really grape wines. Going out for a nice bottle of wine tonight for dinner. Enjoy.

[hawksway]

Afraid so. These party boxes might look to be value on the shelf but should only be bought from Sellers with cold storage. They are also cheap wines which would be less easy to sell by the bottle and will deteriorate within a couple of Months.

We buy ours by the bottle from Bangkok Fine Wine who have good quality products, all of which are cold stored. Never had bad.

[xylophone]

And when one's palate is sufficed, said bladder can be blown up and used as a pillow...especially useful if the local wine appreciation society meeting happens to be on the beach.

Chateau cardboard....another Aussie gift to the world!

Well the sad truth of the matter is that if you have lived anywhere in Europe over the past 30 to 50 years, then you could have been drinking wine from a bottle which was very inferior to that which could be purchased in a cask from Australia.

There was some truly awful rubbish being bottled in France, Italy and Spain to name the main offenders, and shipped overseas to what was seen as an ever grateful market for that product. The problem being that Australia came on the market with its fruit driven wines and also later on, the casks, and changed the grand order of things.

But the damage was done, and wine buyers started to look elsewhere for their everyday wine and opened up markets from Australia, New Zealand, Chile, Argentina and the USA. The only good thing was that those aforementioned European countries started to get their act together and passed laws with regard to the wines, and also encouraged the pulling up of "inferior vines" to be replaced by better varieties.

So the good old cask wine, when not adulterated by fruit juice, would be more than a match for the everyday plonk from the old days, by a long shot.............and I'm not an Aussie!!

I am....and speaking from experience....

Then you will know exactly what I am talking about because there were some truly awful wines sold by the bottle in the UK (and elsewhere) which would make some of the Aussie cask wine look very good indeed......

[xylophone]

I watch people in the beer bars enjoying red wine out of the box. I have tried to enjoy them, but cannot find any that, are to me, drinkable. But as I have said before, if anyone likes a wine, whether is it $1 a glass, in cardboard, or $5,000 a bottle, they should drink what they find satisfies them. If we all had the same palette, there would be just 2 wines, a red & a white, and they would probably say Gallo on the bottle. My go to red right now for special occasion is the Shiraz from Silver Lake Winery. For me, just excellent. Great body, acids are balanced, carries through with a great finish of chocolate mocha, with a very nice charcoal cherry in between.

As you say, everyone to their own, and I have tried a few of them but cannot get on with them in reality, and as one other poster has suggested, perhaps there are too many preservatives in them, because I for one get a headache after a couple of glasses.

Sulphur dioxide could be the main culprit, however who knows quite how the fruit juice is introduced to the wine – – is it added to the grape juice and then fermented together, or is it added afterwards, and what preservatives are used in the making of the fruit juice...........and so on!

As a matter of interest, I have found a few bottles of Washington State, Columbia Valley Ch. Ste Michelle Syrah on the shelves here and I particularly liked the 2007 because I like my Syrah with a bit of age on it..........a very lovely wine indeed, but alas can find it no more.

[TheWizardofRnR]

I found a rather good Italian jug wine in 2ltr. and 5 liter bottles Corte d'Antiqua Bianco ,White or Rosso ,Red

, which I found at Villa and Foodland in Bangkok and Pattaya..

.I never had a bad bottle and I been drinking it and turned on friends to it for about 10 years or more,

so I recommend it for price too....most likely because these stores are air-con and wine is kept in better conditions then some !

[stoli]

I watch people in the beer bars enjoying red wine out of the box. I have tried to enjoy them, but cannot find any that, are to me, drinkable. But as I have said before, if anyone likes a wine, whether is it $1 a glass, in cardboard, or $5,000 a bottle, they should drink what they find satisfies them. If we all had the same palette, there would be just 2 wines, a red & a white, and they would probably say Gallo on the bottle. My go to red right now for special occasion is the Shiraz from Silver Lake Winery. For me, just excellent. Great body, acids are balanced, carries through with a great finish of chocolate mocha, with a very nice charcoal cherry in between.

As you say, everyone to their own, and I have tried a few of them but cannot get on with them in reality, and as one other poster has suggested, perhaps there are too many preservatives in them, because I for one get a headache after a couple of glasses.

Sulphur dioxide could be the main culprit, however who knows quite how the fruit juice is introduced to the wine – – is it added to the grape juice and then fermented together, or is it added afterwards, and what preservatives are used in the making of the fruit juice...........and so on!

As a matter of interest, I have found a few bottles of Washington State, Columbia Valley Ch. Ste Michelle Syrah on the shelves here and I particularly liked the 2007 because I like my Syrah with a bit of age on it..........a very lovely wine indeed, but alas can find it no more.

2007 was a good year for the states, which means the weather let the grape develop to it's full potential. 1997 was a great year also, then 1998 the wines were unsellable in the states because they were so bad. The climate plays such an important role in the grape. Start with bad grapes, you get bad wines. Start with great grapes, only the winemaker can screw it up. They do this very seldom, thank goodness.

[stoli]

I watch people in the beer bars enjoying red wine out of the box. I have tried to enjoy them, but cannot find any that, are to me, drinkable. But as I have said before, if anyone likes a wine, whether is it $1 a glass, in cardboard, or $5,000 a bottle, they should drink what they find satisfies them. If we all had the same palette, there would be just 2 wines, a red & a white, and they would probably say Gallo on the bottle. My go to red right now for special occasion is the Shiraz from Silver Lake Winery. For me, just excellent. Great body, acids are balanced, carries through with a great finish of chocolate mocha, with a very nice charcoal cherry in between.

As you say, everyone to their own, and I have tried a few of them but cannot get on with them in reality, and as one other poster has suggested, perhaps there are too many preservatives in them, because I for one get a headache after a couple of glasses.

Sulphur dioxide could be the main culprit, however who knows quite how the fruit juice is introduced to the wine – – is it added to the grape juice and then fermented together, or is it added afterwards, and what preservatives are used in the making of the fruit juice...........and so on!

As a matter of interest, I have found a few bottles of Washington State, Columbia Valley Ch. Ste Michelle Syrah on the shelves here and I particularly liked the 2007 because I like my Syrah with a bit of age on it..........a very lovely wine indeed, but alas can find it no more.

2007 was a good year for the states, which means the weather let the grape develop to it's full potential. 1997 was a great year also, then 1998 the wines were unsellable in the states because they were so bad. The climate plays such an important role in the grape. Start with bad grapes, you get bad wines. Start with great grapes, only the winemaker can screw it up. They do this very seldom, thank goodness.

Sulphur dioxide is found naturally on the grapes on the vine. That is why you will find labels that state, "no added sulphites". Wines will always include sulphites. Winemakers add sulphites to kill the bacteria that is found during all winemaking. Organics wineries do not use it during the process, relying on the sulphites found on the grape to kill the spoilage bacteria. Unfortunately this does not always work, and the organic wines are then full of spoilage bacteria. Good try, but does not always work out for the consumer. I wish it did work. Yes, I do believe in cheaper wines that it can lead to headaches. Too much of anything is not good.

[xylophone]

2007 was a good year for the states, which means the weather let the grape develop to it's full potential. 1997 was a great year also, then 1998 the wines were unsellable in the states because they were so bad. The climate plays such an important role in the grape. Start with bad grapes, you get bad wines. Start with great grapes, only the winemaker can screw it up. They do this very seldom, thank goodness.

As you say, everyone to their own, and I have tried a few of them but cannot get on with them in reality, and as one other poster has suggested, perhaps there are too many preservatives in them, because I for one get a headache after a couple of glasses.

Sulphur dioxide could be the main culprit, however who knows quite how the fruit juice is introduced to the wine – – is it added to the grape juice and then fermented together, or is it added afterwards, and what preservatives are used in the making of the fruit juice...........and so on!

As a matter of interest, I have found a few bottles of Washington State, Columbia Valley Ch. Ste Michelle Syrah on the shelves here and I particularly liked the 2007 because I like my Syrah with a bit of age on it..........a very lovely wine indeed, but alas can find it no more.

Sulphur dioxide is found naturally on the grapes on the vine. That is why you will find labels that state, "no added sulphites". Wines will always include sulphites. Winemakers add sulphites to kill the bacteria that is found during all winemaking. Organics wineries do not use it during the process, relying on the sulphites found on the grape to kill the spoilage bacteria. Unfortunately this does not always work, and the organic wines are then full of spoilage bacteria. Good try, but does not always work out for the consumer. I wish it did work. Yes, I do believe in cheaper wines that it can lead to headaches. Too much of anything is not good.

Have to disagree with you on part of that comment, because sulphur dioxide is not naturally found on grapes, although sulphites occur naturally in all living things, but is also naturally produced in the fermentation process through the interaction of yeast in the fermentation process itself, but then only in small amounts. So as you say wine will always include sulphites.

The preservative nature and the killing of bacteria, fungus etc (as well as the suppression of wild yeasts) was well known of sulphur dioxide going back to the days when wine was first produced and it has been used ever since, with powdered sulphur being sprayed on the vines and grapes prior to harvest and sulphur dioxide also being added to the bunches when they are put into the crusher and destemmer, and then sometimes prior to bottling to stop secondary fermentation.

In the USA..............

Organic

For a wine to be labeled “Organic” and bear the USDA organic seal, it must be made from organically grown grapes and give information about who the certifying agency is. A wine in this category cannot have any added sulfites. It may have naturally occurring sulfites, but the total sulfite level must be less than 20 parts per million.

Made with Organic Grapes - or Made with Organically Grown Grapes

The wine in this category must be made from organic grapes, but it can include added sulfites

And even in France there is some discussion as to what constitutes an organic wine, for example, because some winemakers argue that sulphur is a naturally occurring element and therefore in itself is an organic compound.

In addition, this further clouds the organic wine debate: "Allowable levels, measured in mg/ litre vary according to the type of wine but typically the maximum permitted in organic wines is about 50% of the non-organic wine limits".

My point about the sulphur dioxide was that excessive amounts may cause headaches, however in my over 40 years experience of collecting and tasting wines in some of the finest chateaux and domains in France, not to mention tastings in Australia and New Zealand, I have had no problems with wines which do not contain added fruit juice.

[stoli]

2007 was a good year for the states, which means the weather let the grape develop to it's full potential. 1997 was a great year also, then 1998 the wines were unsellable in the states because they were so bad. The climate plays such an important role in the grape. Start with bad grapes, you get bad wines. Start with great grapes, only the winemaker can screw it up. They do this very seldom, thank goodness.

As you say, everyone to their own, and I have tried a few of them but cannot get on with them in reality, and as one other poster has suggested, perhaps there are too many preservatives in them, because I for one get a headache after a couple of glasses.

Sulphur dioxide could be the main culprit, however who knows quite how the fruit juice is introduced to the wine – – is it added to the grape juice and then fermented together, or is it added afterwards, and what preservatives are used in the making of the fruit juice...........and so on!

As a matter of interest, I have found a few bottles of Washington State, Columbia Valley Ch. Ste Michelle Syrah on the shelves here and I particularly liked the 2007 because I like my Syrah with a bit of age on it..........a very lovely wine indeed, but alas can find it no more.

Sulphur dioxide is found naturally on the grapes on the vine. That is why you will find labels that state, "no added sulphites". Wines will always include sulphites. Winemakers add sulphites to kill the bacteria that is found during all winemaking. Organics wineries do not use it during the process, relying on the sulphites found on the grape to kill the spoilage bacteria. Unfortunately this does not always work, and the organic wines are then full of spoilage bacteria. Good try, but does not always work out for the consumer. I wish it did work. Yes, I do believe in cheaper wines that it can lead to headaches. Too much of anything is not good.

Have to disagree with you on part of that comment, because sulphur dioxide is not naturally found on grapes, although sulphites occur naturally in all living things, but is also naturally produced in the fermentation process through the interaction of yeast in the fermentation process itself, but then only in small amounts. So as you say wine will always include sulphites.

The preservative nature and the killing of bacteria, fungus etc (as well as the suppression of wild yeasts) was well known of sulphur dioxide going back to the days when wine was first produced and it has been used ever since, with powdered sulphur being sprayed on the vines and grapes prior to harvest and sulphur dioxide also being added to the bunches when they are put into the crusher and destemmer, and then sometimes prior to bottling to stop secondary fermentation.

In the USA..............

Organic

For a wine to be labeled “Organic” and bear the USDA organic seal, it must be made from organically grown grapes and give information about who the certifying agency is. A wine in this category cannot have any added sulfites. It may have naturally occurring sulfites, but the total sulfite level must be less than 20 parts per million.

Made with Organic Grapes - or Made with Organically Grown Grapes

The wine in this category must be made from organic grapes, but it can include added sulfites

And even in France there is some discussion as to what constitutes an organic wine, for example, because some winemakers argue that sulphur is a naturally occurring element and therefore in itself is an organic compound.

In addition, this further clouds the organic wine debate: "Allowable levels, measured in mg/ litre vary according to the type of wine but typically the maximum permitted in organic wines is about 50% of the non-organic wine limits".

My point about the sulphur dioxide was that excessive amounts may cause headaches, however in my over 40 years experience of collecting and tasting wines in some of the finest chateaux and domains in France, not to mention tastings in Australia and New Zealand, I have had no problems with wines which do not contain added fruit juice.

You are correct about the sulphur dioxide occurring naturally. The point I was trying to make was that it is found in all wines, regardless of whether it was added or not. US law states that if the wine has more than 10 ppm of sulphites, that it must be labeled as containing sulphites. Since every wine fits this description, without having any added sulphites, they are all labeled as such. You are correct about the connection between sulphites and headaches. This controversy will probably never be solved. It has not been proven that suphites cause any headaches, but there are camps that believe it to be the cause, and camps that claim no way. Just like the FDA has never been able to proven anything bad about msg, but the different camps will swear that they are correct.

[jackanapes]

red wine should always be kept at room temperature if the wine is vinegary then you have wasted your money and it is possible that the rest of the wine may be fine the problem with wine once you have uncorked it you must drink it all.

[lvr181]

red wine should always be kept at room temperature if the wine is vinegary then you have wasted your money and it is possible that the rest of the wine may be fine the problem with wine once you have uncorked it you must drink it all.

I believe that "room temperature" originated in Europe NOT for guidelines in warmer climates?

See my "temperature guide" posted earlier, #67.

[xylophone]

2007 was a good year for the states, which means the weather let the grape develop to it's full potential. 1997 was a great year also, then 1998 the wines were unsellable in the states because they were so bad. The climate plays such an important role in the grape. Start with bad grapes, you get bad wines. Start with great grapes, only the winemaker can screw it up. They do this very seldom, thank goodness.

As you say, everyone to their own, and I have tried a few of them but cannot get on with them in reality, and as one other poster has suggested, perhaps there are too many preservatives in them, because I for one get a headache after a couple of glasses.

Sulphur dioxide could be the main culprit, however who knows quite how the fruit juice is introduced to the wine – – is it added to the grape juice and then fermented together, or is it added afterwards, and what preservatives are used in the making of the fruit juice...........and so on!

As a matter of interest, I have found a few bottles of Washington State, Columbia Valley Ch. Ste Michelle Syrah on the shelves here and I particularly liked the 2007 because I like my Syrah with a bit of age on it..........a very lovely wine indeed, but alas can find it no more.

Sulphur dioxide is found naturally on the grapes on the vine. That is why you will find labels that state, "no added sulphites". Wines will always include sulphites. Winemakers add sulphites to kill the bacteria that is found during all winemaking. Organics wineries do not use it during the process, relying on the sulphites found on the grape to kill the spoilage bacteria. Unfortunately this does not always work, and the organic wines are then full of spoilage bacteria. Good try, but does not always work out for the consumer. I wish it did work. Yes, I do believe in cheaper wines that it can lead to headaches. Too much of anything is not good.

Have to disagree with you on part of that comment, because sulphur dioxide is not naturally found on grapes, although sulphites occur naturally in all living things, but is also naturally produced in the fermentation process through the interaction of yeast in the fermentation process itself, but then only in small amounts. So as you say wine will always include sulphites.

The preservative nature and the killing of bacteria, fungus etc (as well as the suppression of wild yeasts) was well known of sulphur dioxide going back to the days when wine was first produced and it has been used ever since, with powdered sulphur being sprayed on the vines and grapes prior to harvest and sulphur dioxide also being added to the bunches when they are put into the crusher and destemmer, and then sometimes prior to bottling to stop secondary fermentation.

In the USA..............

Organic

For a wine to be labeled “Organic” and bear the USDA organic seal, it must be made from organically grown grapes and give information about who the certifying agency is. A wine in this category cannot have any added sulfites. It may have naturally occurring sulfites, but the total sulfite level must be less than 20 parts per million.

Made with Organic Grapes - or Made with Organically Grown Grapes

The wine in this category must be made from organic grapes, but it can include added sulfites

And even in France there is some discussion as to what constitutes an organic wine, for example, because some winemakers argue that sulphur is a naturally occurring element and therefore in itself is an organic compound.

In addition, this further clouds the organic wine debate: "Allowable levels, measured in mg/ litre vary according to the type of wine but typically the maximum permitted in organic wines is about 50% of the non-organic wine limits".

My point about the sulphur dioxide was that excessive amounts may cause headaches, however in my over 40 years experience of collecting and tasting wines in some of the finest chateaux and domains in France, not to mention tastings in Australia and New Zealand, I have had no problems with wines which do not contain added fruit juice.

You are correct about the sulphur dioxide occurring naturally. The point I was trying to make was that it is found in all wines, regardless of whether it was added or not. US law states that if the wine has more than 10 ppm of sulphites, that it must be labeled as containing sulphites. Since every wine fits this description, without having any added sulphites, they are all labeled as such. You are correct about the connection between sulphites and headaches. This controversy will probably never be solved. It has not been proven that suphites cause any headaches, but there are camps that believe it to be the cause, and camps that claim no way. Just like the FDA has never been able to proven anything bad about msg, but the different camps will swear that they are correct.

Some nice points and I think we were probably just off-centre with our discussion, let me explain...............

What I was trying to convey was that in the case of the wine here which has fruit juice added, the following could occur. First of all the grape juice is produced in say Australia or South Africa, and in producing it sulphur in one form or another would be used to kill the nasties (as well as occurring naturally) and to act as a preservative because the producer would not want the grape juice to start fermentation so the sulphur along with cooling would prevent this, and it would be shipped to its destination in this form.

It arrives in Thailand and is sent to the winery to be fermented and quite possibly in doing so, more sulphur would be added to ensure there is no secondary fermentation prior to bottling, and of course the addition of sulphur gives red wine a brighter red look.

Then you have the addition of the fruit juice, which may have also been treated with sulphur or another additive to ensure it is inert............so hopefully you can see where I'm coming from, in as much as it is very possible that the cheap wine here which has added fruit juice could well contain much more than the "normal" amount of sulphur or other additives found in other wine.

I know the "jury is out" on the "sulphites causing headaches" debate, however some people are allergic to sulphur and sulphur drugs (a medical fact) so it would seem that these people could be affected by an overdose of the stuff. In addition, sulphites can cause allergy and asthma type symptoms in some people.

Another train of thought suggests that histamine and tyramine In wine is to blame............??

I've been lucky so far as I've never found a wine (not the stuff with added fruit juice) which affects me this way, apart from when imbibing far too much!.

[xylophone]

red wine should always be kept at room temperature if the wine is vinegary then you have wasted your money and it is possible that the rest of the wine may be fine the problem with wine once you have uncorked it you must drink it all.

I believe that "room temperature" originated in Europe NOT for guidelines in warmer climates?

See my "temperature guide" posted earlier, #67.

You are right in that assumption and your temperature guide for serving wine is about right, although one has to remember that there is some flexibility in this.

Staying at Chateau La Bastide in the Languedoc I was treated to a rather sumptuous dinner which seemed to go on for ever and the owner was serving his wines, naturally, and the temperature in that dining room would have been well above that recommended for a red wine, however the wine did not suffer.

This situation would be common in Southern Europe so it would be damn near impossible to get red wine served at 65° in the summertime (although a little chilling can help).

I once read somewhere that the temperature for serving red wine was dreamt up by some ruddy faced old Pom because that's the only temperature he could get his draughty mansion up to (or something like that).

As I said there is flexibility in the temperatures, but important to remember that it is possible to have a white wine chilled too much, and a red wine served "too hot".

[slipperylobster]

I save my cheap red wine for lady visitors.

Throw some ice cubes in it...and tell them it cost a heap.

[superal]

I save my cheap red wine for lady visitors.

Throw some ice cubes in it...and tell them it cost a heap.

Exactly as I said in a previous post , cheap red with ice and coke turns it into a tasty drink for the ladies and they enjoy it .

I have watched some of these so called wine snobs / connoisseurs on the telly and when challenged and blindfolded to select the good and expensive

wines from the cheap supermarket brands by tasting / sipping , they have failed embarrassingly, often choosing the inferior as the superior . . Or maybe they had

an OFF day who NOSE

[lvr181]

I save my cheap red wine for lady visitors.

Throw some ice cubes in it...and tell them it cost a heap.

Exactly as I said in a previous post , cheap red with ice and coke turns it into a tasty drink for the ladies and they enjoy it .

I have watched some of these so called wine snobs / connoisseurs on the telly and when challenged and blindfolded to select the good and expensive

wines from the cheap supermarket brands by tasting / sipping , they have failed embarrassingly, often choosing the inferior as the superior . . Or maybe they had

an OFF day who NOSE

A good wine is one that you enjoy drinking. Simple really - no need for "wine connoisseurs"

[xylophone]

I save my cheap red wine for lady visitors.

Throw some ice cubes in it...and tell them it cost a heap.

Exactly as I said in a previous post , cheap red with ice and coke turns it into a tasty drink for the ladies and they enjoy it .

I have watched some of these so called wine snobs / connoisseurs on the telly and when challenged and blindfolded to select the good and expensive

wines from the cheap supermarket brands by tasting / sipping , they have failed embarrassingly, often choosing the inferior as the superior . . Or maybe they had

an OFF day who NOSE

I watched as some Russians poured Coca-Cola into the glass of an extremely expensive bottle of Bordeaux, because it wasn't sweet enough!!!!!

The subject of winetasting/connoisseurs etc is huge and much discussed and you might like to read through the link below – –

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis

I think there is some middle ground because there are some excellent wine judges around, and I have been lucky to meet a few, and there are also some who are just plain "posers".

For example Jancis Robinson, an internationally respected wine writer and someone with a huge knowledge of the subject, described them thus; "it is in their attempts to find character terms to apply to these more subtle more private olfactory sensations that some wine tasters seem so foolish. Some "idiot terms" are just plain fanciful, descriptions obviously applied in sheer desperation at the apparent impossibility of the task. In this category come the, "fading but well mannered old lady" description, and who can forget this one by James Thurber, "a naive domestic Burgundy but I think you'll be amused by its presumption".

Aside from these folk described above, there are some serious exponents of wine judging and if you care to look up, the "Ann Noble Wine Wheel" (Aroma wheel) you will see that it is not an easy task. So I don't think anyone could be faulted for making the occasional mistake, "because wine judging/tasting involves more than just tasting the wine, and what many of us call the sense of taste is in fact the sense of smell, and the human brain senses what we call flavours and aromas in the olfactory bulb, which is reached by a perhaps 1000 different receptors, each sensitive to a small group of different aromas located in the nose"............ there you go, not so easy.

Too complicated for me, however I can distinguish some aromas and tastes in wine and as long as they suit me, well that's all that matters!

[GrantSmith]

Speaking of becoming an expert, there was a chap - Dr Alex Russell - who did his thesis on the subject of wine sensory and basically came up with 10 points that with 4 hours of study will set you well on the way to improving your wine expertise..

http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=14711

Of his 10 points, I think the 5th's a bit out there and certainly something I wouldn't be doing myself (maybe if for experiments sake I used point 8) but is a good way for people who scoff at the thought of fruit being added to these wines.

[superal]

I save my cheap red wine for lady visitors.

Throw some ice cubes in it...and tell them it cost a heap.

Exactly as I said in a previous post , cheap red with ice and coke turns it into a tasty drink for the ladies and they enjoy it .

I have watched some of these so called wine snobs / connoisseurs on the telly and when challenged and blindfolded to select the good and expensive

wines from the cheap supermarket brands by tasting / sipping , they have failed embarrassingly, often choosing the inferior as the superior . . Or maybe they had

an OFF day who NOSE

I watched as some Russians poured Coca-Cola into the glass of an extremely expensive bottle of Bordeaux, because it wasn't sweet enough!!!!!

The subject of winetasting/connoisseurs etc is huge and much discussed and you might like to read through the link below – –

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis

I think there is some middle ground because there are some excellent wine judges around, and I have been lucky to meet a few, and there are also some who are just plain "posers".

For example Jancis Robinson, an internationally respected wine writer and someone with a huge knowledge of the subject, described them thus; "it is in their attempts to find character terms to apply to these more subtle more private olfactory sensations that some wine tasters seem so foolish. Some "idiot terms" are just plain fanciful, descriptions obviously applied in sheer desperation at the apparent impossibility of the task. In this category come the, "fading but well mannered old lady" description, and who can forget this one by James Thurber, "a naive domestic Burgundy but I think you'll be amused by its presumption".

Aside from these folk described above, there are some serious exponents of wine judging and if you care to look up, the "Ann Noble Wine Wheel" (Aroma wheel) you will see that it is not an easy task. So I don't think anyone could be faulted for making the occasional mistake, "because wine judging/tasting involves more than just tasting the wine, and what many of us call the sense of taste is in fact the sense of smell, and the human brain senses what we call flavours and aromas in the olfactory bulb, which is reached by a perhaps 1000 different receptors, each sensitive to a small group of different aromas located in the nose"............ there you go, not so easy.

Too complicated for me, however I can distinguish some aromas and tastes in wine and as long as they suit me, well that's all that matters!

Many thanks for an informed reply . I accept the fact that there are of course many fakes / posers and for sure there are the professionals / experts . The point that I was really trying to put across was that at the low price range of red wines you probably get what your paying for and if you want a reasonable wine you will have to pay considerably more and normally from a reputable source .I would imagine it must be a difficult task trying to find a favourite wine in a country like Thailand ( especially outside of Bangkok ) with its high humidity/heat .

[xylophone]

I save my cheap red wine for lady visitors.

Throw some ice cubes in it...and tell them it cost a heap.

Exactly as I said in a previous post , cheap red with ice and coke turns it into a tasty drink for the ladies and they enjoy it .

I have watched some of these so called wine snobs / connoisseurs on the telly and when challenged and blindfolded to select the good and expensive

wines from the cheap supermarket brands by tasting / sipping , they have failed embarrassingly, often choosing the inferior as the superior . . Or maybe they had

an OFF day who NOSE

I watched as some Russians poured Coca-Cola into the glass of an extremely expensive bottle of Bordeaux, because it wasn't sweet enough!!!!!

The subject of winetasting/connoisseurs etc is huge and much discussed and you might like to read through the link below – –

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis

I think there is some middle ground because there are some excellent wine judges around, and I have been lucky to meet a few, and there are also some who are just plain "posers".

For example Jancis Robinson, an internationally respected wine writer and someone with a huge knowledge of the subject, described them thus; "it is in their attempts to find character terms to apply to these more subtle more private olfactory sensations that some wine tasters seem so foolish. Some "idiot terms" are just plain fanciful, descriptions obviously applied in sheer desperation at the apparent impossibility of the task. In this category come the, "fading but well mannered old lady" description, and who can forget this one by James Thurber, "a naive domestic Burgundy but I think you'll be amused by its presumption".

Aside from these folk described above, there are some serious exponents of wine judging and if you care to look up, the "Ann Noble Wine Wheel" (Aroma wheel) you will see that it is not an easy task. So I don't think anyone could be faulted for making the occasional mistake, "because wine judging/tasting involves more than just tasting the wine, and what many of us call the sense of taste is in fact the sense of smell, and the human brain senses what we call flavours and aromas in the olfactory bulb, which is reached by a perhaps 1000 different receptors, each sensitive to a small group of different aromas located in the nose"............ there you go, not so easy.

Too complicated for me, however I can distinguish some aromas and tastes in wine and as long as they suit me, well that's all that matters!

Many thanks for an informed reply . I accept the fact that there are of course many fakes / posers and for sure there are the professionals / experts . The point that I was really trying to put across was that at the low price range of red wines you probably get what your paying for and if you want a reasonable wine you will have to pay considerably more and normally from a reputable source .I would imagine it must be a difficult task trying to find a favourite wine in a country like Thailand ( especially outside of Bangkok ) with its high humidity/heat .

Thanks also for your reply, because I hadn't quite cottoned on to quite where you are coming from. And you are right, you do get what you pay for generally speaking, and it is very difficult to find a reasonable wine (IMO) that's not going to cost 750 baht minimum, this especially when they would retail in my country for around half that, and I really do hate paying double!!!

Luckily enough I have a few contacts and at the moment I am drinking a lovely South African Shiraz/Grenache/Mourvedre blend which normally would sell for around 1000 baht, which I have managed to acquire for 250 baht per bottle – – and that's the only way I keep sane; looking out for and finding bargains.

Tesco/Lotus and Big C also occasionally have "clear out sales" and I have been very lucky to acquire many dozens of bottles this way too........I say lucky, however hunting around for them is part of what I enjoy so I suppose I make my own luck in that way!

Edited June 2, 2015 by xylophone

[ableguy]

If it tastes like shit throw it out.

At Baht 790.- for 4 litres, in a Box, from a "Mom and Pop" Store what on earth do you expect?

Don't even bother to taste it.

Patrick

I have never seen a four liter box of wine here.

[Langsuan Man]

I have yet to find a "boxed" wine here in Thailand that isn't mixed with "fruit" to get around the tax requirements

I would even be willing to pay extra for real wine in a box, just for the convenience but alas have never found any

Mont Clair can be found boxed, I don't think there is fruit inside.

+1...Decent low priced wine. Big-C has it.

If it not mixed with fruit then why does the box say it is a "fruit wine". Show me a picture of the box and I will believe it, but so far every box I have seen says the same thing. The writing is small but it is still there

[Argus Tuft]

If it tastes like shit throw it out.

At Baht 790.- for 4 litres, in a Box, from a "Mom and Pop" Store what on earth do you expect?

Don't even bother to taste it.

Patrick

I have never seen a four liter box of wine here.

Really? 4 litre boxes of wine are all over the place in Thailand.

I'm struggling to think of somewhere I haven't seen them

[rott]

Speaking of fruit wine, am I the only one who has tried and enjoyed Thai Mulberry Wine.

To my palate (and please lads enough of this palette business, we're drinkers not painters) it is as good as any of the reds around the 500/600 baht mark and costs only 199 from Tesco and 215 (different brand) at Big C.

Flame on.