Land officials 'teamed up to sell deeds'

[Lite Beer]

Land officials 'teamed up to sell deeds'
PIYANUT TUMNUKASETCHAI,
NATTHAPAT PHROMKAEW
THE SUNDAY NATION

BANGKOK: -- ONE THOUSAND RAI IN NAKHON RATCHASIMA SOLD TO INVESTORS

A LAND encroachment investigation in Nakhon Ratchasima province has found that five state officials teamed up to issue land-rights documents for over 1,000 rai that overlapped a forest reserve, agricultural reform land and Army land and sell it to investors, an informed source at the Centre for National Anti Corruption (CNAC) said yesterday.

Officials exaggerated the area of Lam Takhong settlement to overlap Army land, the source said.

Many plots with illegitimate title deeds had been traded from person to person and turned into housing estates, accommodation and a golf course, the source said.

The discovery was related to a case in which nine officials - including some from the Land Office and the Agricultural Land Reform Office (ARLO) - were being probed by a Public-sector Anti Corruption Commission (PACC) subpanel over claims that they wrongfully issued deeds for these types of state land.

The source also cited a recent survey that found Thailand only had 102 million rai of forest left, covering 31.6 per cent of the country - and that was "shrinking" by about a million rai per year.

Meanwhile, PACC secretary-general Prayong Preeyajit yesterday said PACC was compiling information for a big picture of encroachment on national forests. They will include recommendations from 22 agencies in eight ministries and submit them next week to Justice Minister and CNAC chair General Paiboon Koomchaya and Natural Resources and Environment Minister General Dapong Ratanasuwan.

All agencies had gradually put in reports to the CNAC, and most cited a lack of manpower to oversee forests as a major obstacle, Prayong said, while some officials also did not effectively monitor their areas.

The PACC has assigned a sub-panel to probe the Bonanza Khao Yai resort racetrack alleged to have been built illegally on forestland in Pak Chong district, Prayong said. In regard to the probe into Kirimaya Resort and suspicion of land encroachment, officials were gathering evidence, notably aerial pictures, so it would take a while, he said.

Charges over Phuket encroachment

In related news, the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC) will soon file charges in the case which a former deputy Phuket governor and 15 others were accused of issuing land deeds to help investors who encroached on Sirinat National Park and forest reserves at Khao Ruak-Khao Muang, an NACC member said yesterday.

During a seminar in Phuket yesterday, Wicha Mahakhun said the sub-committee's probe was fast thanks to a working team of experts' input, especially satellite analysis. He said the initial probe had progressed a lot and found wrongdoing, so charges would be filed shortly, and the case acted upon to deter other companies that encroach on forestland.

Wicha said he agreed with the suggestion by the National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation Department to get the head of the National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) to evoke power via Article 44 of the interim constitution to solve this problem.

Hence he would have a meeting of related officials to pass this case on to the NCPO.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Land-officials-teamed-up-to-sell-deeds-30261303.html

-- The Nation 2015-05-31

[BSJ]

All the wrongdoers deserve jail time....not be transferred to inactive posts.

[ezzra]

Why nobody should be surprise to hear such news? corruptions is rampant and everywhere

in this country, as the check and balances system is out dated and the people who's suppose

to be the kippers of the gates are sleeping on the job, literally...

[ChrisY1]

This is certainly a lot bigger and widespread than we'll ever hear of......and obviously goes a long way up the feeding chain.

As with any scheme that's been operating for so long, and this has clearly been on going for decades, means that this scam has more than likely been handed over to succesive management teams over the years.....

Edited May 31, 2015 by ChrisY1

[NickJ]

Decades old problem. found in every corner of the country.

[halloween]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

[Ricardo]

Why nobody should be surprise to hear such news? corruptions is rampant and everywhere

in this country, as the check and balances system is out dated and the people who's suppose

to be the kippers of the gates are sleeping on the job, literally...

"kippers of the gates"

Something certainly seems fishy here !

Transfers to inactive-posts have clearly failed to keep bureaucrats honest, time to try prosecution & jail or recovery of their assets, whoever they are ?

[DLock]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Taking the land back now compounds the problem.

The Thai that conspired to upgrade or obtain the land made billions and is long gone.

The person(s) that bought the land, passing the scrutiny by his lawyers, who loses the land now is the unfortunate one....he will lose the land and his money.

Would anyone seriously buy land in Thailand? When your lawyer says its clean, but something that happened 15 or 20 years ago and is undetectable could douse you to lose it all and your investment?

[robblok]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Taking the land back now compounds the problem.

The Thai that conspired to upgrade or obtain the land made billions and is long gone.

The person(s) that bought the land, passing the scrutiny by his lawyers, who loses the land now is the unfortunate one....he will lose the land and his money.

Would anyone seriously buy land in Thailand? When your lawyer says its clean, but something that happened 15 or 20 years ago and is undetectable could douse you to lose it all and your investment?

Good point.. still the law needs to be upheld. They should go after those who did this but still reclaim the land and let those who are loosing out now should be helped in starting court cases against those who did the damage originally.

[SOTIRIOS]

....when it is so widespread........dare we term it....'culture'....???

[RigPig]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Taking the land back now compounds the problem.

The Thai that conspired to upgrade or obtain the land made billions and is long gone.

The person(s) that bought the land, passing the scrutiny by his lawyers, who loses the land now is the unfortunate one....he will lose the land and his money.

Would anyone seriously buy land in Thailand? When your lawyer says its clean, but something that happened 15 or 20 years ago and is undetectable could douse you to lose it all and your investment?

Good point.. still the law needs to be upheld. They should go after those who did this but still reclaim the land and let those who are loosing out now should be helped in starting court cases against those who did the damage originally.

I wonder if you would feel the same if it was you and your family getting chucked out of your house and home and losing your life´s savings through no fault of your own!! A crime committed by someone else that profited from it 15 years ago.....

[robblok]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Taking the land back now compounds the problem.

The Thai that conspired to upgrade or obtain the land made billions and is long gone.

The person(s) that bought the land, passing the scrutiny by his lawyers, who loses the land now is the unfortunate one....he will lose the land and his money.

Would anyone seriously buy land in Thailand? When your lawyer says its clean, but something that happened 15 or 20 years ago and is undetectable could douse you to lose it all and your investment?

Good point.. still the law needs to be upheld. They should go after those who did this but still reclaim the land and let those who are loosing out now should be helped in starting court cases against those who did the damage originally.

I wonder if you would feel the same if it was you and your family getting chucked out of your house and home and losing your life´s savings through no fault of your own!! A crime committed by someone else that profited from it 15 years ago.....

Of course I would not feel good, and I would hate it. But to do nothing is crazy and only encourages lawlessness. So yes sometimes people get screwed over when the law is enforced. Its either that or not enforcing the law and then everyone can get away with everything.

Its a bad situation all around do nothing.. encourage it.. do something hurt people who are innocent.

That is why i said help the innocent with court-cases against the guilty.

[Muhendis]

There should be no need for the "innocent" current owner of the land to suffer for wrong doing by the original purchaser. Land documents (Chanote) carry the history of purchases on them and so have traceability. Any moneys which changed hands should be recovered and used to cover the losses of the current owner when the land is reclaimed for the state. Another idea could be to allow the current "innocent" occupier to remain on the land and act as manager of the land for the state but without inheritance rights. If the land has an occupied housing estate built on it then there is a big problem of dispossessing hundreds of people who thought they had legitimately bought houses.

[elgordo38]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Taking the land back now compounds the problem.

The Thai that conspired to upgrade or obtain the land made billions and is long gone.

The person(s) that bought the land, passing the scrutiny by his lawyers, who loses the land now is the unfortunate one....he will lose the land and his money.

Would anyone seriously buy land in Thailand? When your lawyer says its clean, but something that happened 15 or 20 years ago and is undetectable could douse you to lose it all and your investment?

Good point.. still the law needs to be upheld. They should go after those who did this but still reclaim the land and let those who are loosing out now should be helped in starting court cases against those who did the damage originally.

Good luck in court these people your going after have your money and fight you with it. Even if they changed the law allowing me to buy land here with all the dodgy deeds I would not touch land here with a 10 foot pole.

[TommyUK1960]

Who can you trust if you can't trust the land office?

[DLock]

Who can you trust if you can't trust the land office?

And I guess that's what it comes down to.

The very office that you trust to tell you whether a land title is valid and correct cannot be trusted.

How can anyone ever buy land knowing that the very institution is guilty of falsifying documents and title years ago that may come back to haunt innocent buyers today?

I agree, that something needs to be done, but the penalty should not be on current innocent owners...although that very statement opens to door for some clever manipulation in itself.

The Land Official(s) probably benefitted by a few million baht (or more) and at worst, he needs to be accountable. Perhaps the Government needs to pay back the innocent owner of today to reclaim that land back, as they were the employer and supposedly the watchdog of the Land Official....otherwise, they may have to suck it up, enforce the law going forward and have much bigger penalties.

Tough problem...

[ratcatcher]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Taking the land back now compounds the problem.

The Thai that conspired to upgrade or obtain the land made billions and is long gone.

The person(s) that bought the land, passing the scrutiny by his lawyers, who loses the land now is the unfortunate one....he will lose the land and his money.

Would anyone seriously buy land in Thailand? When your lawyer says its clean, but something that happened 15 or 20 years ago and is undetectable could douse you to lose it all and your investment?

Good point.. still the law needs to be upheld. They should go after those who did this but still reclaim the land and let those who are loosing out now should be helped in starting court cases against those who did the damage originally.

Good luck in court these people your going after have your money and fight you with it. Even if they changed the law allowing me to buy land here with all the dodgy deeds I would not touch land here with a 10 foot pole.

"I would not touch land here with a 10 foot pole. '

How about a six foot German?

[Reigntax]

The Land Titles Office fraud is a government problem. It is part of the government and obtaining a clean title through this office will be guaranteed in most countries. If the LTO provide false advice, sue the government, they were their employees and their responsibility.

[Thai at Heart]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Taking the land back now compounds the problem.

The Thai that conspired to upgrade or obtain the land made billions and is long gone.

The person(s) that bought the land, passing the scrutiny by his lawyers, who loses the land now is the unfortunate one....he will lose the land and his money.

Would anyone seriously buy land in Thailand? When your lawyer says its clean, but something that happened 15 or 20 years ago and is undetectable could douse you to lose it all and your investment?

Good point.. still the law needs to be upheld. They should go after those who did this but still reclaim the land and let those who are loosing out now should be helped in starting court cases against those who did the damage originally.

I wonder if you would feel the same if it was you and your family getting chucked out of your house and home and losing your life´s savings through no fault of your own!! A crime committed by someone else that profited from it 15 years ago.....

Of course I would not feel good, and I would hate it. But to do nothing is crazy and only encourages lawlessness. So yes sometimes people get screwed over when the law is enforced. Its either that or not enforcing the law and then everyone can get away with everything.

Its a bad situation all around do nothing.. encourage it.. do something hurt people who are innocent.

That is why i said help the innocent with court-cases against the guilty.

That names of the original seller and the person who signed off will be on the Chanotes surely.

These people and their families should be chased.

[maidee]

thailand people do not need/love forrests

they love money

[DLock]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Taking the land back now compounds the problem.

The Thai that conspired to upgrade or obtain the land made billions and is long gone.

The person(s) that bought the land, passing the scrutiny by his lawyers, who loses the land now is the unfortunate one....he will lose the land and his money.

Would anyone seriously buy land in Thailand? When your lawyer says its clean, but something that happened 15 or 20 years ago and is undetectable could douse you to lose it all and your investment?

Good point.. still the law needs to be upheld. They should go after those who did this but still reclaim the land and let those who are loosing out now should be helped in starting court cases against those who did the damage originally.

I wonder if you would feel the same if it was you and your family getting chucked out of your house and home and losing your life´s savings through no fault of your own!! A crime committed by someone else that profited from it 15 years ago.....

Of course I would not feel good, and I would hate it. But to do nothing is crazy and only encourages lawlessness. So yes sometimes people get screwed over when the law is enforced. Its either that or not enforcing the law and then everyone can get away with everything.

Its a bad situation all around do nothing.. encourage it.. do something hurt people who are innocent.

That is why i said help the innocent with court-cases against the guilty.

That names of the original seller and the person who signed off will be on the Chanotes surely.

These people and their families should be chased.

You've never been to court in Thailand I assume?

Whilst the law and the courts do work, they process is slow, expensive and easy to manipulate with delays, no shows and appeals.

It could take 10 years to get a decision....and then when they don't pay...you start again.

The innocent having to battle a wealthy Thai who did something 15 years ago, assuming they are still alive, in the country or traceable really doesn't help much.

I understand your point, but the innocent taking on that burden, given they just lost their land and their money, is probably unrealistic.

If it happened to me, I'd probably try sue the Government, make as much noise on the Internet and International Press as I could...and hopefully live until tomorrow...

[jackanapes]

I think forest and land encroachment has been happening all over Thailand for a considerable length of time and people have been making a lot of money and still are .

[EyesWideOpen]

Phuket was famous for this for many years. Guess the practice of stealing land using documents

from the land office is a bit more widespread than I thought.

[phoenixdoglover]

There is a simple solution:

1) Convict the bad actors

2) Fine them and seize their assets; use the assets to create a land compensation fund

3) For current land owners (innocent purchasers of tainted land), consider two options

Option A - confiscate the land, but compensate the innocent owners at full market value, or

Option B - permit the innocent land owners to stay, and use the compensation fund to buy other properties adjacent to the forests and parks, so as to expand the protected lands

I personally like option B.

Edited May 31, 2015 by phoenixdoglover

[plachon]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Why compensation for an illegal act? They would almost certainly have paid tea money to the land officials to get the deeds to land they knew full well were not kosher in the first place, so why on earth do they need to be compensated? Given a substantial fine and the land returned to public ownership is more appropriate, I would have thought. The officials deserve to be imprisoned for a suitably lengthy period of time, to ensure that others are deterred in the future.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

Who can you trust if you can't trust the land office?

In Thailand only yourself.

[Ricardo]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Why compensation for an illegal act? They would almost certainly have paid tea money to the land officials to get the deeds to land they knew full well were not kosher in the first place, so why on earth do they need to be compensated? Given a substantial fine and the land returned to public ownership is more appropriate, I would have thought. The officials deserve to be imprisoned for a suitably lengthy period of time, to ensure that others are deterred in the future.

I agree absolutely, the original purchaser is likely to have been at-least slightly dirty, paying a 'fee' to induce the official to issue the documents.

But what about when the current owner, fifteen years on, is a few steps down the chain, and had no knowledge or involvement in the original misdeed ? In a country where rule-of-law is the objective, aren't they entitled to reply upon legal-documents issued by the proper authority, when they themselves purchased the land ?

It seems harsh that they should lose their land, and the home/business they've built on it, while the perpetrators are allowed to remain untouched.

[geriatrickid]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Absolutely not. Anyone holding dodgy deeds knows they are dodgy. I hope the deed holders are badly hurt. I want to see them wiped out.

That's how you deal with corruption. Why do you expect anyone to be compensated for benefiting from the proceeds of crime?

In your own country, if someone purchases a stolen car, does that person get compensation when the police come and repossess the vehicle?

The sooner all development is removed from the stolen land and it is returned to its original state, the better off the country will be.

As most of these lands were part of national or crown lands, held to protect the land for future generations. I hope that the thieves are charged with theft from the people of Thailand.

[geriatrickid]

I agree absolutely, the original purchaser is likely to have been at-least slightly dirty, paying a 'fee' to induce the official to issue the documents.

But what about when the current owner, fifteen years on, is a few steps down the chain, and had no knowledge or involvement in the original misdeed ? In a country where rule-of-law is the objective, aren't they entitled to reply upon legal-documents issued by the proper authority, when they themselves purchased the land ?

It seems harsh that they should lose their land, and the home/business they've built on it, while the perpetrators are allowed to remain untouched.

The reality is that much of the land hasn't changed hands. for those parcels that have, a land title search would show that something wasn't right. The ownership would only be documented going back 15 years and not prior. The purchasers in most cases knew quite well that the land had a questionable history. Any land bordering a national park that becomes available should send up a red flag.

If one looks at the behaviour in Phuket, your argument, while compassionate disintegrates. Recently, the volunteers replanted an area that had been deforested. The adjacent resort owner, then ripped up all of the trees to re-establish her illegal access road. When the officials came to investigate she threatened that she knew important people in Bangkok and would have their heads. This is how the land thefts and encroachments work. A few people push and push and grab and grab. The only way to deal with them is to hit them hard in their bank accounts. There can be no sympathy, no compassion shown for these thieves.

[jcisco]

There could be quite a few people innocently holding dodgy deeds that are going to be badly hurt over this. Not a reason to stop the reclamation, but hopefully some compassion in the form of compensation might be shown, up to a limited income level.

Why compensation for an illegal act? They would almost certainly have paid tea money to the land officials to get the deeds to land they knew full well were not kosher in the first place, so why on earth do they need to be compensated? Given a substantial fine and the land returned to public ownership is more appropriate, I would have thought. The officials deserve to be imprisoned for a suitably lengthy period of time, to ensure that others are deterred in the future.

Because it is not an illegal act to transfer property by sale and transfer of the deed, if the parties are acting in good faith and not party to or aware of the initial illegal transfer. That is to say, if you buy land and carry out the deal legally, but the land was actually a title stolen from someone and then on sold to you. Your purchase and the sale is usually legal and can be upheld and usually is western courts and legislation. So the take away is, you can make an illegal land transfer legit with a legit transfer / sale.

As for the inability to verify the land vs the deed, all one has to do is take the time to go back and reference the field books of the surveyors and any drawings lodged or related to uncover the fiddling. Take time to do and of course be made difficult by loss of records or otherwise sloppy archiving. If you cannot keep the proof and transaction history together, one doesn't have much leap to understanding why so much fiddling is done with plots, it is because they can. Corrupt officials just make it easier to scale the fraud, rather than being a risk or barrier.