Thai editorial: Look who's attacking the Shinawatras now

[lovetotravel]

prettty much a nonsense piece - has the guy just got off the plane?

Hardly. He knows more about Thai politics than any of us ever will. Dr. Somsak was a professor at Thammasat University.

[jesimps]

democracy is about elections dude but never mind

Wrong. Elections are a part of democracy, as much as fair judicial system, due process of law, freedom of information, freedom to vote however you choose without threats and intimidation. Elections on their own do not equal democracy, North Korea runs elections and the present govt won a 100% of the vote - so in your opinion NK must be about the most democratic utopia on earth?

Would you like to explain how democracy is helped when one party created and/or buys smaller parties to pretend to run against it in an election in order to gain 40% of the vote, to stop the election being voided?

I agree... you think we have that now? a Military State where students were arrested last week? an interesting take on 'democracy' but let's get back ON TOPIC?

PS why say 'one party'? your 'facts' are all over the place but you don't care about facts do you? we veer off topic please save your Junta support for a different thread?

I wish you would stop going on about the current government not being a democracy - we are all fully aware of what it is, we are also fully aware that it is a process that just might conclude with a stable and fair system of democracy in Thailand that might just stop the rot once and for all, The Shin abuse could not be allowed to continue

You poor deluded person, I look forward to seeing your comments 2-3 years down the line.

[Mango Bob]

Name names, no one got the balls to say who the elite is. He says Thaksin but what about the others. Gives names not BS

[GeckosDiving]

democracy is about elections dude but never mind

Wrong. Elections are a part of democracy, as much as fair judicial system, due process of law, freedom of information, freedom to vote however you choose without threats and intimidation. Elections on their own do not equal democracy, North Korea runs elections and the present govt won a 100% of the vote - so in your opinion NK must be about the most democratic utopia on earth?

Would you like to explain how democracy is helped when one party created and/or buys smaller parties to pretend to run against it in an election in order to gain 40% of the vote, to stop the election being voided?

I agree... you think we have that now? a Military State where students were arrested last week? an interesting take on 'democracy' but let's get back ON TOPIC?

PS why say 'one party'? your 'facts' are all over the place but you don't care about facts do you? we veer off topic please save your Junta support for a different thread?

[geriatrickid]

It's sad that the media aren't allowed to discuss this sort of subject fully, but it's sadder still that they make up articles that completely ignore reality and pose an idea that simply doesn't exist out of context like this. The "left" have never seen Thaksin as an ideological ally

Correct,

The UDD was and is an umbrella organization. It brought together a wide range of political groups from progressives to nationalists to Thaksin lovers to socialists. There was nowhere else for them to go and to have an opportunity to be heard. They certainly were not welcome in the Democrat party, nor were they welcome in some of the regional parties.

This article says nothing new. Most people who know anything about Thai politics already know that the socialists and progressives do not support Thaksin.

[Bakseeda]

yea easy to stick the boot in when their down isn't it?

What skool did you go to..? there's a question for you..! Right there ! Where and when they're up or down.

[lovetotravel]

Name names, no one got the balls to say who the elite is. He says Thaksin but what about the others. Gives names not BS

Easy to find out. They've been mentioned in many articles over the years. Powerful via money or connections. And are on both sides of the political divide.

[baboon]

Just goes to show how far loyalty goes once the money stops flowing.

That's really rather cynical of you. There are those who are neither supporters of the amart backed military nor self serving billionaire Taksin.

I'm afraid that is way beyond the comprehension of a fair few on here.

[Baerboxer]

Most sensible thing he's said in years. Even if Lannaguy doesn't see it

I am no Shin fan or apologist but it leaves a foul taste in the mouth when I see someone like Yingluck being kicked by the Army jackboots and then he joins in

Of course your're not - totally objective, fair and balanced. Just happens that you always post to defend them, as they're so innocent.

Yingluck the mushroom farmer didn't do anything wrong, just like her older brother.

Lying, cheating, thieving, breaking laws, always acting in self interest, building up the family fortune by whatever means. Nothing wrong at all.

Someone like Yingluck - what a repetitive liar, conspirator to crimes, actress, uncaring immoral excuse for a politician?

[Baerboxer]

Just goes to show how far loyalty goes once the money stops flowing.

That's really rather cynical of you. There are those who are neither supporters of the amart backed military nor self serving billionaire Taksin.

I'm afraid that is way beyond the comprehension of a fair few on here.

Yep. There must be many Thai voters totally pissed with the lies and false promises of the Shins; who really don't want to vote for the elite democrats or support a military led non elected government.

Problem is, who can they vote for, when elections finally return. Looking like it will be the same old cronies in the same old gangs.

[Baerboxer]

It's sad that the media aren't allowed to discuss this sort of subject fully, but it's sadder still that they make up articles that completely ignore reality and pose an idea that simply doesn't exist out of context like this. The "left" have never seen Thaksin as an ideological ally

Correct,

The UDD was and is an umbrella organization. It brought together a wide range of political groups from progressives to nationalists to Thaksin lovers to socialists. There was nowhere else for them to go and to have an opportunity to be heard. They certainly were not welcome in the Democrat party, nor were they welcome in some of the regional parties.

This article says nothing new. Most people who know anything about Thai politics already know that the socialists and progressives do not support Thaksin.

An umbrella group whose leaders were not elected but appointed.

Now, who do you think did the appointing?

[JAG]

democracy is about elections dude but never mind

Do some research on what constitutes a true democracy. Elections are but one small part. And if not done properly, are definitely not democratic. You can ask the North Koreans about that one.

One of the most fascinating aspects of this forum over the past year has been the building up of an argument that elections are a minor, perhaps even unnecessary part of democracy, one that can be discarded if the result is not to ones taste.

It serves, of course, to excuse the military seizing power whilst a constitutionally conducted electoral process was under way (one impeded by a faction which seemed to operate with impunity as far as the military was concerned); and it also prepares the ground for defense of the inevitable political emasculation of Pheu Thai or whatever succeeds it should (when) they win any future election. That emasculation, we can expect, will attempt to ensure that although they may have been elected, they will not be allowed to govern in any meaningful sense.

Elections are absolutely fundamental to the establishment and maintenance of democracy. In the previous governments case it came to power in an election internationally recognized as fair and open, and with a result which was accepted by the leader of the other major contender. Democracy was established. When challenged by strong opposition it offered itself for re-election. That election was prevented. Democracy was not maintained,

Edited June 1, 2015 by JAG

[robblok]

yea easy to stick the boot in when their down isn't it?

But as a red supporter I don't see you attacking the facts.. that is nothing new.

He is saying what everyone is saying the coup became possible because of him wanting an amnesty and the Shins are just other rich elite.

[ginjag]

Most sensible thing he's said in years. Even if Lannaguy doesn't see it

I am no Shin fan or apologist but it leaves a foul taste in the mouth when I see someone like Yingluck being kicked by the Army jackboots and then he joins in

Your sentence----??? "someone like Yingluck" ?? in other words she never did wrong ?? it's hurting you and you are NOT a Shin fan ?? The "JACK BOOTS" Quote has to be left to the moderators ----get rid of the hate and see thing as they are, whether you are not an army fan or you are---reality please.

[lovetotravel]

democracy is about elections dude but never mind

Do some research on what constitutes a true democracy. Elections are but one small part. And if not done properly, are definitely not democratic. You can ask the North Koreans about that one.

One of the most fascinating aspects of this forum over the past year has been the building up of an argument that elections are a minor, perhaps even unnecessary part of democracy, one that can be discarded if the result is not to ones taste.

It serves, of course, to excuse the military seizing power whilst a constitutionally conducted electoral process was under way (one impeded by a faction which seemed to operate with impunity as far as the military was concerned); and it also prepares the ground for defense of the inevitable political emasculation of Pheu Thai or whatever succeeds it should (when) they win any future election. That emasculation, we can expect, will attempt to ensure that although they may have been elected, they will not be allowed to govern in any meaningful sense.

Elections are absolutely fundamental to the establishment and maintenance of democracy. In the previous governments case it came to power in an election internationally recognized as fair and open, and with a result which was accepted by the leader of the other major contender. Democracy was established. When challenged by strong opposition it offered itself for re-election. That election was prevented. Democracy was not maintained,

Please don't twist my words. I never said elections were not necessary. Nor do most members on this forum. What I've consistently read on here is elections are important, but so are the other pillars of Democracy. You need all of them to have a fully democratic nation. Leaving out one, like justice OR equality doesn't work. Just like leaving out elections doesn't work.

The electoral process that was under way was being pushed way too fast by a government in trouble. You know that. I'm sure many of us here on TV would have been happy with a PTP led government if they obeyed the laws and respected the minority. Which they obviously didn't. Unfortunately for Thailand.

Elections last year or not. We still would not have had a proper democratic government here. Though they would have been elected, that is true. Just like the North Korean leader.

[ginjag]

democracy is about elections dude but never mind

Do some research on what constitutes a true democracy. Elections are but one small part. And if not done properly, are definitely not democratic. You can ask the North Koreans about that one.

One of the most fascinating aspects of this forum over the past year has been the building up of an argument that elections are a minor, perhaps even unnecessary part of democracy, one that can be discarded if the result is not to ones taste.

It serves, of course, to excuse the military seizing power whilst a constitutionally conducted electoral process was under way (one impeded by a faction which seemed to operate with impunity as far as the military was concerned); and it also prepares the ground for defense of the inevitable political emasculation of Pheu Thai or whatever succeeds it should (when) they win any future election. That emasculation, we can expect, will attempt to ensure that although they may have been elected, they will not be allowed to govern in any meaningful sense.

Elections are absolutely fundamental to the establishment and maintenance of democracy. In the previous governments case it came to power in an election internationally recognized as fair and open, and with a result which was accepted by the leader of the other major contender. Democracy was established. When challenged by strong opposition it offered itself for re-election. That election was prevented. Democracy was not maintained,

In normal circumstances you are correct regarding elections----amnesty--you forgot ?? here lies the problem---to stop a repeat of a controlling party intervention was the only way---so on this occasion you are wrong---but you put in such a way that this is the way everytime. I repeat again "on this occasion elections were out of order until the scum were ejected and normality restored, and that is gonna take 2 years at least. Just look at the mess that has to be sorted.

[Yunla]

Somsak noted that movements and plots against the Yingluck administration amounted to little before the controversial Amnesty Bill came along. That bill sought to provide a blanket political amnesty, meaning that while it would benefit Thaksin's political rivals, it would whitewash him, too, Somsak said.

"There's one thing that Thaksin and many of his supporters have tried to turn a blind eye to. That thing paved the way for the government to be overthrown. That thing is the blanket Amnesty Bill," he said.

This blind-spot issue is one of the common sub-effect phenomena in persons with 'persecution complex' type disorders, which in the current age we tend to call 'victim card' people. One of the effects of this complex is a blindness to personal error-making, and the inability to notice that it is you yourself bringing about your own downfall. The interesting thing is how often this exact same phenomenon has occurred in even the most legendary rulers of ancient times.

As a metaphor, the person is so busy blaming other drivers for everything, they fail to notice the end of the road and the gigantic cliff drop beyond it.

[robblok]

democracy is about elections dude but never mind

Do some research on what constitutes a true democracy. Elections are but one small part. And if not done properly, are definitely not democratic. You can ask the North Koreans about that one.

One of the most fascinating aspects of this forum over the past year has been the building up of an argument that elections are a minor, perhaps even unnecessary part of democracy, one that can be discarded if the result is not to ones taste.

It serves, of course, to excuse the military seizing power whilst a constitutionally conducted electoral process was under way (one impeded by a faction which seemed to operate with impunity as far as the military was concerned); and it also prepares the ground for defense of the inevitable political emasculation of Pheu Thai or whatever succeeds it should (when) they win any future election. That emasculation, we can expect, will attempt to ensure that although they may have been elected, they will not be allowed to govern in any meaningful sense.

Elections are absolutely fundamental to the establishment and maintenance of democracy. In the previous governments case it came to power in an election internationally recognized as fair and open, and with a result which was accepted by the leader of the other major contender. Democracy was established. When challenged by strong opposition it offered itself for re-election. That election was prevented. Democracy was not maintained,

Of course elections are needed but they are futile if the party who comes to power then does not follow the laws and abuses it power.

That is like having a chair with just one leg, its not going to work. You need to uphold all the rules of a democracy not just vote. Else its as much a democracy as the current junta.

[Orac]

prettty much a nonsense piece - has the guy just got off the plane?

Hardly. He knows more about Thai politics than any of us ever will. Dr. Somsak was a professor at Thammasat University.

Also if he had 'just got off the plane' he would have been locked up due to the outstanding lese majeste charges that he was sacked for by Thammasat University and why he is living in exile in Europe.

Though I do agree with what he is saying here I find it odd the The Nation omitted mentioning his current situation.

[maidee]

he just got too big, too powerfull, to the taste of the old ruling elite, that he had to go

[lovetotravel]

prettty much a nonsense piece - has the guy just got off the plane?

Hardly. He knows more about Thai politics than any of us ever will. Dr. Somsak was a professor at Thammasat University.

Also if he had 'just got off the plane' he would have been locked up due to the outstanding lese majeste charges that he was sacked for by Thammasat University and why he is living in exile in Europe.

Though I do agree with what he is saying here I find it odd the The Nation omitted mentioning his current situation.

It's been reported on before:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/803672-thammasat-lecturers-rage-over-somsaks-dismissal/

Maybe thought it wasn't that relevant to the topic?

[JAG]

democracy is about elections dude but never mind

Do some research on what constitutes a true democracy. Elections are but one small part. And if not done properly, are definitely not democratic. You can ask the North Koreans about that one.

One of the most fascinating aspects of this forum over the past year has been the building up of an argument that elections are a minor, perhaps even unnecessary part of democracy, one that can be discarded if the result is not to ones taste.

It serves, of course, to excuse the military seizing power whilst a constitutionally conducted electoral process was under way (one impeded by a faction which seemed to operate with impunity as far as the military was concerned); and it also prepares the ground for defense of the inevitable political emasculation of Pheu Thai or whatever succeeds it should (when) they win any future election. That emasculation, we can expect, will attempt to ensure that although they may have been elected, they will not be allowed to govern in any meaningful sense.

Elections are absolutely fundamental to the establishment and maintenance of democracy. In the previous governments case it came to power in an election internationally recognized as fair and open, and with a result which was accepted by the leader of the other major contender. Democracy was established. When challenged by strong opposition it offered itself for re-election. That election was prevented. Democracy was not maintained,

Please don't twist my words. I never said elections were not necessary. Nor do most members on this forum. What I've consistently read on here is elections are important, but so are the other pillars of Democracy. You need all of them to have a fully democratic nation. Leaving out one, like justice OR equality doesn't work. Just like leaving out elections doesn't work.

The electoral process that was under way was being pushed way too fast by a government in trouble. You know that. I'm sure many of us here on TV would have been happy with a PTP led government if they obeyed the laws and respected the minority. Which they obviously didn't. Unfortunately for Thailand.

Elections last year or not. We still would not have had a proper democratic government here. Though they would have been elected, that is true. Just like the North Korean leader.

1. I didn't set out to twist your words - it was a general observation, and I am happy to agree that you haven't said that elections are not necessary.

2. The electoral process that was under way was being conducted entirely in line with the provisions of the constitution.

3. Does respect for the minority include resigning when the minority (Sutheps mob) demand it; and handing over government to them, or is it rather better served by calling an election and allowing the minority to make their case to the electorate?

4. If the election had been concluded properly, and a Pheu Thai government had resulted, why would it then not have been democratic?

5. Let's stop banging on about North Korea, what happens there has nothing whatsoever to do with electoral democracy. They just hijack the name.

Edited June 1, 2015 by JAG

[Orac]

prettty much a nonsense piece - has the guy just got off the plane?

Hardly. He knows more about Thai politics than any of us ever will. Dr. Somsak was a professor at Thammasat University.

Also if he had 'just got off the plane' he would have been locked up due to the outstanding lese majeste charges that he was sacked for by Thammasat University and why he is living in exile in Europe.

Though I do agree with what he is saying here I find it odd the The Nation omitted mentioning his current situation.

It's been reported on before:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/803672-thammasat-lecturers-rage-over-somsaks-dismissal/

Maybe thought it wasn't that relevant to the topic?

The headline is "Look who's attacking the Shinawatras now" yet, apart from his name, there is very little in the article about him.

[rijb]

Is this a war between 'old' money and 'new' money?

[Orac]

Is this a war between 'old' money and 'new' money?

That is what it had been for some years now or more like old establishment against an emerging new establishment. It is interesting to see Somsak Jeam having his views aired by The Nation as his views could be more dangerous to the old establishment than Thaksin. If the junta are able to neutralize the political influence of Thaksin it will give more room for other players to exert control over the various groups that constitute the Red Shirts who have far stronger anti-establishment credentials especially if the Junta manages to cock up the economy and exacerbate the huge income gap that Thailand currently has.

[lovetotravel]

1. I didn't set out to twist your words - it was a general observation, and I am happy to agree that you haven't said that elections are not necessary.

2. The electoral process that was under way was being conducted entirely in line with the provisions of the constitution.

3. Does respect for the minority include resigning when the minority (Sutheps mob) demand it; and handing over government to them, or is it rather better served by calling an election and allowing the minority to make their case to the electorate?

4. If the election had been concluded properly, and a Pheu Thai government had resulted, why would it then not have been democratic?

5. Let's stop banging on about North Korea, what happens there has nothing whatsoever to do with electoral democracy. They just hijack the name.

Thanks for #1. Not actually true for #2. It was a caretaker government, not an elected one. Caretaker governments can not set policy. Plus, why rush things? Why not try to diffuse the situation? We know the reason. Amnesty for Thaksin. Pure and simple. And remember, many in the initial protests were from both sides of the political spectrum. All opposed to the amnesty, but for different reasons.

#3 Suthep and his mob were never handed the government. There was a coup to prevent further bloodshed. Remember? As you well know, the coup was easily avoidable.

#4 PTP government was never democratic. Remember the pillars of democracy? Rule of law is one, which they did not follow and are being prosecuted for this as we speak. To be fair, previous governments had the same issues. Only time will tell if the same is true of future ones. It's going to be a difficult path.

#4 North Korea is totally relevant. A democratic government with elections. It is called the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. And it's constitution calls the nation a democracy. Every citizen over the age of 17 is allowed to vote. Just trying to point out the hypocrisy of some countries with elections. There's more to a democracy than elections. And IMHO, not the most important. But that's my opinion.

See? Some of us on here can be critical of BOTH sides. It shouldn't be us versus them. Introspection is a good thing. And owning up to your mistakes is another one. Something that's needed here in Thailand.

Peace!

[tbthailand]

I am wondering how many posters know who Somsak is...

[MrJohnson]

It sounds like K. Somsak may have attended a 're-education' or 're-alignment' session. Most intellectuals knew full well that Thaksin was trying to manipulate the masses for his own gains. However, for many it was a win by whatever means were necessary strategy. For Somsak to come out and say this now as if he has undergone some kind of epiphany is ludicrous. The leftists went along with Thaksin right from the start in the full knowledge of his long-term intentions. Thaksin was simply looking to shift the deck chairs around. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of the current crew either. They are as bad as each other. It will be interesting to how long the generals can keep their boots on the throat of the populace? Just how docile are the Thais? Shopping anyone?

[tbthailand]

It's sad that the media aren't allowed to discuss this sort of subject fully, but it's sadder still that they make up articles that completely ignore reality and pose an idea that simply doesn't exist out of context like this. The "left" have never seen Thaksin as an ideological ally

any time a royalist supporting media outlet gleefully reports on a "leftist" slamming someone that they don"t like, it raises a flag to double check what is being told.

Since Somsak is in exile, he has the ability to speak freely, and he does speak freely... Every day... and in the last year he has criticized the Shinewatra family about ... twice. Most of the time he is pointing out the obvious truths WRT the dear General...

And you are right that Thaksin and the left have never been natural allies...

[Tatsujin]

I am no Shin fan or apologist but it leaves a foul taste in the mouth when I see someone like Yingluck being kicked by the Army jackboots and then he joins in

She's being kicked due to her own actions. Too many to list. But it is refreshing to see some not towing the party line and speaking out. That's what democracy is all about, right?

Introspection is a great thing. The article is spot on.

democracy is about elections dude but never mind

Dude! Wow! Another "red" (despite your claims to the contrary) showing his ignorance ... elections are only a part of "democracy".

Democracy can be broken down as follows:

A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections.

The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life.

Protection of the human rights of all citizens.

A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.

That last one is the one that Thaksin never thinks applies to him or his sycophants.