Arithmetic rant

[heybruce]

I went to 7-11 earlier today to pay a few bills. The cashier presented me with the total and I saw immediately that it was wrong. I tried to explain and eventually, after they handed me a calculator, I showed them that their sum was over 600 baht too high. I don't think it was an intentional overcharge, I think they made a mistake with the register and didn't recognize it. However if I were not able to do simple arithmetic in my head I would have been overcharged more than 600 baht.

I bring this up because I am painfully aware that many people, especially young people, are incapable of doing simple arithmetic without a calculator. I know this because I tutor math, and frequently encounter students who want to go the college who haven't learned their multiplication tables. I occasionally deal with students who don't understand the concept of fractions, and am currently trying to help a high school graduate who can't add two plus five without a calculator.

Here's my rant--if you are the parent of a child who can't add two plus five without a calculator, and you either didn't notice or didn't take action until this child bombed his or her college entrance tests, you are a bad parent! Too many times I've encountered parents who expected twenty or thirty hours of tutoring to compensate for years of falling behind in math. Bad news bad parents, it doesn't work that way. I can no more bring a child who hasn't mastered elementary school arithmetic up to high school math levels in a few weeks than a reading tutor can bring a child still learning the alphabet up to adult literacy standards in the same amount of time.

Constantly monitor your child's progress in school, and if things don't look right, get involved early. Don't expect the school to give your child the individual attention that you, as the parent, should be giving. Don't wait until your child is approaching high school graduation and being rejected by universities to take action.

By the way, most of my students come from moderately well-off families, are of different nationalities, and go to expensive international schools. And if there are any bad parents reading this who don't have a calculator handy, two plus five equals seven.

[gk10002000]

I agree. I am an engineer with a math degree. But I will never forget back in High School, circa 1973-74 when he first got an a TI-10 calculator! Divide, multiply and add was about all it did with those red LED displays. I remember my Trig teacher saying we all would become stupid as we got dependent on the calculators.

[IMA_FARANG]

I come from the last generation before calculators were allowed in primary schools in the U.S....... yes that many years ago.

We had to learn our multiplication and even division tables.

Here's the question Each item costs $2.95 each. You are buying 5 of them, You give the clerk a 20 dollar bill.

How much change should the clerk return to you?

No calculator needed. The total cost is $14.75 and you should get $ 5.25 in change.

[Mr Somtam]

In Thailand falling behind a couple of years is cured with... A seminar...

[lemonjelly]

3 students buy a tv for 300 bucks, 100 bucks per student, they're walking down the street with their tv when the shop owner realises he overcharged them, it should have been 250.

He gives 50 bucks to his assistant and tells him to catch them up and give them the 50 bucks, but the assistant pockets 20 bucks and gives them the remaining 30 which the students divide amongst themselves: 10 bucks each. First they gave 100 each, got back 10..... 100 minus 10 = 90

90 x 3 = 270.... Plus the 20 the assistant pocketed = 290..... Where's 10 bucks disappeared to?

[nev]

I come from the last generation before calculators were allowed in primary schools in the U.S....... yes that many years ago.

We had to learn our multiplication and even division tables.

Here's the question Each item costs $2.95 each. You are buying 5 of them, You give the clerk a 20 dollar bill.

How much change should the clerk return to you?

No calculator needed. The total cost is $14.75 and you should get $ 5.25 in change.

I gave a 100baht bill to pay 30baht and the girl had to use a calculator for my change.

[stoneyboy]

The money that flows from my pockets is beyond calculation,I've got bills here I never ever knew existed.

My other half is a mathematician she makes my mind boggle,some Thais are brighter than others.

[CWMcMurray]

It's not plus 20... It's minus 20..

They paid 300.. Got back 30.. So paid 270...

Cost 250 and assistant pocketed 20.. Equals 270

But still a funny story that may get some kids...lol

[Mr Somtam]

Small shop in some mall had a 10% discount on all shoes. The normal price was 3500, out comes the calculator, ta dah!

[heybruce]

3 students buy a tv for 300 bucks, 100 bucks per student, they're walking down the street with their tv when the shop owner realises he overcharged them, it should have been 250.

He gives 50 bucks to his assistant and tells him to catch them up and give them the 50 bucks, but the assistant pockets 20 bucks and gives them the remaining 30 which the students divide amongst themselves: 10 bucks each. First they gave 100 each, got back 10..... 100 minus 10 = 90

90 x 3 = 270.... Plus the 20 the assistant pocketed = 290..... Where's 10 bucks disappeared to?

This is one to confuse those who can't keep positives and negatives straight. The story starts with three students who have $300, it ends with three students who have $30, an assistant with $20 and the store with $250. $30 + $20 + $250 = $300, the same amount as the story started with.

[FarangKino]

3 students buy a tv for 300 bucks, 100 bucks per student, they're walking down the street with their tv when the shop owner realises he overcharged them, it should have been 250.

He gives 50 bucks to his assistant and tells him to catch them up and give them the 50 bucks, but the assistant pockets 20 bucks and gives them the remaining 30 which the students divide amongst themselves: 10 bucks each. First they gave 100 each, got back 10..... 100 minus 10 = 90

90 x 3 = 270.... Plus the 20 the assistant pocketed = 290..... Where's 10 bucks disappeared to?

Haha excellent - surely it's minus the 20 the assistant pocketed, which then equals the 250 the shopkeeper eventually charged. The 290 and the missing 10 were never in the equation to begin with.

As an aside - try explaining log-tables or sin, cos, tan or (trig) tables to anyone today - even the old farts who think they know maths. Arithmetic and maths used to be two entirely different subjects.

[coulson]

Oh come on..........is it that hard to imagine why arithmetic is such a low standard?

Think back to the time you started learning, and the environment you were learning it in. Its likely been drilled into your head since aroud the time you were crapping your pants, give or take........

There are other significantly bigger social reasons for not being so highly nourished by education during the years leading up to 18. I hope I don't need to elaborate on that, since the audience here is evidently more intelligent.

You go now, and do a thai language oral test, then explain yourself to the rest of us why you sound like a monkey when you ring off the consenants.....

I really feel bad for 7/11 staff, having to deal with their own drunks, this sort of sh1t, and then a truckload of Chinese clientele.

[heybruce]

Oh come on..........is it that hard to imagine why arithmetic is such a low standard?

Think back to the time you started learning, and the environment you were learning it in. Its likely been drilled into your head since aroud the time you were crapping your pants, give or take........

There are other significantly bigger social reasons for not being so highly nourished by education during the years leading up to 18. I hope I don't need to elaborate on that, since the audience here is evidently more intelligent.

You go now, and do a thai language oral test, then explain yourself to the rest of us why you sound like a monkey when you ring off the consenants.....

I really feel bad for 7/11 staff, having to deal with their own drunks, this sort of sh1t, and then a truckload of Chinese clientele.

"There are other significantly bigger social reasons for not being so highly nourished by education during the years leading up to 18. I hope I don't need to elaborate on that...."

I'll have to ask you to elaborate on that. The objective of my post is to point out that too many parents aren't paying attention to their children's education, or lack of education, until they find their darlings aren't going to get into a decent university. My point is that parents can't ignore their children's education until it reaches the point of becoming a social embarrassment then attempt a quick fix by hiring tutors and expecting miracles. My point is that parents who aren't taking a continuous interest in the children's education are bad parents. Checking on a child's progress in school should be a routine, daily event, much like feeding the child.

Your post is confusing. You seem to suggest that since many expats living in Thailand don't speak the language fluently, that the education of children in general isn't important. I don't follow the logic.

[h90]

3 students buy a tv for 300 bucks, 100 bucks per student, they're walking down the street with their tv when the shop owner realises he overcharged them, it should have been 250.

He gives 50 bucks to his assistant and tells him to catch them up and give them the 50 bucks, but the assistant pockets 20 bucks and gives them the remaining 30 which the students divide amongst themselves: 10 bucks each. First they gave 100 each, got back 10..... 100 minus 10 = 90

90 x 3 = 270.... Plus the 20 the assistant pocketed = 290..... Where's 10 bucks disappeared to?

not easy.....I am looking it for 5 min now.

90x3=270=250 for the TV + 20 in the assistants pocket.

90x3=270+ they 3x10 they got back is 300

the question in the last sentence is somehow misleading....

[h90]

I think worse than unable to calculate is being unable to estimate

[Gsxrnz]

Three of us line up to pay our golf fees. The fee is 1,620 baht. I give the cashier 2,020 Baht. He duly punches in 2,020 minus 1,620 and gets the obvious answer of 400 baht change which he duly hands me.

My buddy does the same with the same amount. Out comes the calculator.....Doh!!

My other buddy does the same thing with the same amount. Out comes the calculator......Double Doh!!

This happens every time we play - it's now a sport for us to watch him do this each week. Some lessons are hard to learn I guess.

Once I collected the money from my two partners and paid for all three of us. I handed him 6,060 Baht and I asked for the change in 100 Baht notes, expecting 1,200B change.

This turned out to be rocket science and apparently the calculator was incapable of this complex math scenario. After 5 minutes of him trying to figure it out and me telling him the change should be 12 x 100B notes, he hands the 6,060 back to me and then takes 2,020 baht, uses the calculator to work out the change of 400 for one person and hands me the change. He then repeats the exercise complete with calculator two more times.

Then I buy a bottle of water for 12 baht and pay with 100B. As he goes to the calculator I tell him the change is 88B. Surprisingly, when the calculator achieves the same answer I invariably get a wry grin which I take to imply that I made a lucky guess.

[coulson]

Oh come on..........is it that hard to imagine why arithmetic is such a low standard?

Think back to the time you started learning, and the environment you were learning it in. Its likely been drilled into your head since aroud the time you were crapping your pants, give or take........

There are other significantly bigger social reasons for not being so highly nourished by education during the years leading up to 18. I hope I don't need to elaborate on that, since the audience here is evidently more intelligent.

You go now, and do a thai language oral test, then explain yourself to the rest of us why you sound like a monkey when you ring off the consenants.....

I really feel bad for 7/11 staff, having to deal with their own drunks, this sort of sh1t, and then a truckload of Chinese clientele.

"There are other significantly bigger social reasons for not being so highly nourished by education during the years leading up to 18. I hope I don't need to elaborate on that...."

I'll have to ask you to elaborate on that. The objective of my post is to point out that too many parents aren't paying attention to their children's education, or lack of education, until they find their darlings aren't going to get into a decent university. My point is that parents can't ignore their children's education until it reaches the point of becoming a social embarrassment then attempt a quick fix by hiring tutors and expecting miracles. My point is that parents who aren't taking a continuous interest in the children's education are bad parents. Checking on a child's progress in school should be a routine, daily event, much like feeding the child.

Your post is confusing. You seem to suggest that since many expats living in Thailand don't speak the language fluently, that the education of children in general isn't important. I don't follow the logic.

Social problems in school? Corruption, Crime and then there is the minor issue of Poverty. The environment in and out of school is not always so conducive to learning.

I would not just blame the parents, except for those rich enough to get their kids to a decent institution or all the way through to an MBA - and I'm sorry but those few parents exist the world over. Rich folk don't get involved, they just throw money at the problem.

Some parents would get involved, but they're more concerned about putting food on the table first, that is if they are not getting loaded on cheap Whisky. Those that bother enough to interact, could only do so to the level of their own education and I'm almost sure their arithmetic isn't too sharp either. The average 7/11 cashier maybe falls into the last category.

I am also not sure when the Thai fully committed to the western numeric system, abandoning Thai numeric characters. Despite the traditional characters never being used in daily life, they are still adopted for official use so just adds to the curriculum base.

I was once asked to teach math, to supplement the English programme I was being considered for, in a sizable and reputable district middle/ high school. The red tape was a mess and I turned it down, regardless it didn't feel right taking that responsibility that I wasn't suitably qualified for. I could have done a great job under the circumstances, but how many jobs are filled by unsuitable candidates? Thankfully, at least, it appears you are not unsuitable for your position.

You completely missed my logic regarding Thai language. Since the 7/11 teller never got to grips with the basic two times tables (in a foreign language), they are effectively still in that early learning process. Any time I try to speak Thai to anyone and make a mistake, it's usually corrected and I walk away the better for it, without being criticized for sounding like a monkey. They usually understand it's sort of 'alien' to me............

[gerryBScot]

I find as a general rule that market traders have fantastic mental arithmetic - they need to otherwise they'll lose their customers. Prices are usually rounded too and usually in the buyer's favour. This is one of my regrets - that it took me so long to understand just how good local markets really are. In all respects that is - food is cheaper, fresher and the traders are not only great counters but also want your custom so they look after you, talk to you and generally give you a much better service. I never leave my local market feeling I have been overcharged either.

The problem with the 7-11 crew and there ilk is they are instructed to calculate everything by calculator. They get bollocked if they don't. This is an ingenious management strategy to minimise errors. It doesn't work, as the OP makes clear.

I suspect that basic numeracy skills as in mental arithmetic are in universal free fall, not just here in Thailand, with the advent of calculators and spreadsheets. I don't really know why else. I think every person needs to know the tables up to 12 if they are to have basic numeracy and not knowing this is a real disadvantage regardless of ability to use a calculator or a spreadsheet.

Primary Mathematics is possibly a misnomer because in real terms it is mainly Arithmetic. In virtually every class I teach there is some sort of counting on or back activity using different multiples and the students really like it - it requires them to pay attention and I think they genuinely like the challenge. And when you consider that for most language learners, 'foreign number' is very difficult, then I would say my students are making good progress.

I would also add that teaching Arithmetic and the rest is actually quite a highly specialised gig, especially subjects such as 'fractions'. The concepts are not exactly intuitive. These poor little blighters learn all about 1-2-3-4 and can readily understand that the numbers get bigger by one as you go up....., makes perfect sense and then you introduce 1/2 and then 1/4 and then 1/6 and 1/24 and you ask them which one is biggest. There's not much of a surprise if they say 1/24 is there? So understanding the concepts behind fractions and the fact that they conflict with much of what has been learned to date is understandably very challenging.

[SlyAnimal]

It's not just Thailand.

In the western countries, it's a symptom of the education systems moving away from rote learning of times tables (Because "rote learning is bad" mmmkay), but in Thailand if they're bad it's because so many of the students are lazy (Since I think they mainly still use a rote learning system).

There's an interesting article regarding the problem in the below NZ Herald article (It's specific to NZ, but still interesting).

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=11459924