French businessman electrocuted in Pattaya

[1BADDAT]

Yup ^^^.

And a 500 Baht RCBO would likely have saved him

Is there a difference with the voltage here? Many years ago, I was in my father's pool when the pump went off. I opened the box to switch it back on and accidentally hit a live wire as it was late at night. The current grabbed me, but luckily when I fell back, it let me go. Would a GFCI have helped with that??? Or is 120V less "dangerous". Just curious....

Again, RIP to this man and my heart goes out to his wife. How horrible.

120v is more dangerous because it doesn't have enough voltage to cause your muscles to react from the voltage. It just continually shocks you until you can pull away from it.

I'm sure many on here will disagree with this as it is counter intuitive, but the person who knows more about electricity and wiring than anyone I have ever met informed me of this.

Now obviously if you are talking about much higher voltage than this rule does not apply.

None of what the person told you applies. There's absolutely no difference between a 120 V belt and a 240 V one... beleive me, I have had them. RF ones are bad in that they tend to punch holes in you, but if I am on damp ground or somehow providing a better earth return path, it is the current flow that decides whether you live or die, not the voltage. Think of a fire hose, the hose is the wire, water is the electricity and water pressure is the current. Can you sand up against a garden hose? Probably yes. Now try the same against a firemans nozzle.

As my mentor advised me, "The difference between a good electrician and the bad one? None, because neither remember their last electric shock.".

Regardless of whether it is true or not I respect the person who taught me electrical very much. He didn't just read the information on ask.com.

As an intelligent person you are, you would also have to agree that there are many many variables in place that determine a persons fate. Whether its 220, 110, 440 or whatever, you treat it like it will kill you regardless and take the necessary precautions.

And by the way, you don't have to dumb down the analogy to a water hose. I took intro to electrical engineering twice (i'm a mechanical engineer) because I failed the first time, so I have twice as much knowledge now! They make all the analogies there between resistors, springs, capacitors, etc...

[1BADDAT]

@ SP....How do you or anyone KNOW how good they are as most customers know nothing about electrics regardless of their charges/fees.

Cos I work with a few of them, they are proper thai electricians, but these guys will not be wiring any farangs house up for the money they are typically offering, these boys I am taking about make Thb 150 to 200k month net

the mistake everyone is making is actually believing the people doing electrical work in houses for a pittance are actually sparkies, they are not

200k a month as an electrician.....ok...they must be stealing quite a lot of copper on the side. Or maybe they only work with platinum and gold.

[Eagleizer]

Can you get electrocuted and not die? Uneducated fools pretending to be writers.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/electrocute

- Injure or kill someone by electric shock. British English...

Cheers

[Robroona]

Poncet owned the Port South Corporation which runs tourism business in Pattaya.

French guy. Laotian wife. How does he own a tourism business?

What the hell does that have to do with you? A man is killed and the ThaiVisa vigilantes are out throwing curveballs

[Tingtau]

R.I.P. Francois Marie Michel Poncet Condolences to your wife and loved ones!

1) To sir charles IV Apparently there is some disagreement....one source (Oxford Dictionary) defines "electrocute" as meaning "to injure or kill by electric shock" Others insist that it means to cause death by electric shock. The word did originally have the sole meaning of to execute or kill by electric shock, however modern usage allows for the broader understanding.

2) Christmas on a rubber crutch!!!! There is that damn verb "to rush" again! Can someone please give the reporter a list of synonyms for "to rush". Or maybe even suggest to him or her that one does not always have to "RUSH" to a scene. I do hope on the other hand that someone did place a call "in haste" to the emergency services who, in turn, I hope "rushed", "hastened", "sped" ore even possibly "drove quickly" even "drove quickly using all manner of emergency warning signals available" to the scene! What need is there for the police officer to "rush" anywhere? If I am dying, I don''t give a rat's patootie if the officer 'RUSHED" to my location if he fogot to call for an flippin ambulance!!! Now....having said that.....if the call was about some man waving a gun around and threatening to kill me.....for Gawd's sake, officer please "RUSH AS FAST OR EVEN FASTER THAN HUMANLY POSSIBLE",and then the reporter can feel free to say "The officer SPED to the scene and apprehended the suspect before anyone (that's ME) was injured!!!!

3) Am I to gather from the various posts which suggest, nay,, claim/state that the Thai electrician is somewhat lacking in knowledge of his subject, that there are no 'building inspectors"? Edited comment - PS. (Egad....I heard the chortles even though I had gone for a 40 metre deep dive off Koh Dokmai!! immediately after posting this comment)

[melvinmelvin]

This guy explains voltage and ampherage very well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDf2nhfxVzg

Dunno, a wee bit simplistic.

Its a bit like saying fatal traffic accidents are not caused by high speed but by the abrupt lack of speed.

[MiKT]

Yup ^^^.

And a 500 Baht RCBO would likely have saved him

EDIT For those interested in how to add an RCBO and other electrical safety issues please have a look here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/693630-how-to-make-your-thai-electrical-system-safe/

Crossy, I'm sorry but I don't know you personally as I would love to speak to you to confirm what is your intent in posting the previous shortcut?

Is this as a guide to what to ask for (or expect) when others have a qualified electrician install or modify equipment, or is it a guide on how to complete this works themselves?

In spite of this sad and tragic accident (the very thought that this man has been taken while his wife is carrying their child is heartbreaking) I find it totally bewildering that anyone would continue to post advice for the uneducated and untrained to carry out electrical work themselves!!! I believe you (and others on TVF) have an electrical background? Does it not go against everything you were taught to share this kind of electrical information with the electrically untrained person?

Genuine apologies if I have misunderstood your post and its intent, it's just that every time an untrained person touches something electrical there is extreme potential for a repeat headline.

Please, no matter what you're qualifications or experience, please stop posting information to be used by others. I appreciate there is a huge amount of information available on the internet, but by readily engaging in this kind of technical exchange you are legitimizing or condoning this kind of amateur activity, you're training will/should tell you this is unacceptable.

Commiserations and condolences to his wife, family and friends...

NO, No, No this is total BS.

The information that Crossy posts is 100% accurate (I do know him personally) and is not only intended for those who qualify under the "Electricity for Dummies" heading; but the electrical section on TV is also read by those of us who are qualified to know what we are doing with electricity. There are many good posts on TV that have undoubtedly contributed to keeping expats and their families (and any Thais who read his posts) much safer than they would have been otherwise. It is IGNORANCE THAT KILLS (also inattention and carelessness).

If people, no matter how unqualified, read Crossy's (and others) posts they will at least get enough information to know if they can tackle the electrical job themselves or get expert help (as far as you can get expert help in Thailand. You only have to read a few post to know that there is a huge amount - I would go so far as to say the vast majority - of electrical work done in Thailand that is shoddy to say the least and Very Dangerous only too often).

Even the Thai Electrical Standards are out of date and not well written (even in Thai). Many so called "Professional Engineers" in Thailand are not up-to date on the latest modern requirements for Earthing, Bonding and Lightning protection given in the ISO's and Euro Norms. Some of us (Crossy included)struggle to get things changed on major Public Works to make them safer - you would be amazed!

It is particularly important to exchange information about electrical problems that arise here because the range of problems is so diverse and what works for one household here will not always work for another.

NB Having sorted out many a water-pump problem, I would bet that he (poor fellow - RIP) was standing in water in bare feet when he shorted out the wires and in this situation even flip flops do help. But it is a lesson to ensure the power is always off before you touch.

NBB The fact that he was burned indicates virtually no protection in the way of fuses/ breakers/etc.

Bait Crossy at your peril, else you may get struck by a bolt from the blue.

[melvinmelvin]

However, I'd like to repeat what I said above. (As a warning)

The low voltage supply system in LoS is live/neutral with possible local grounding.

There are very very few countries in the "white" world with such supply. I come from one of those very very few countries.

I'd just like to say; BE CAREFUL. Local ground is no joke.

You have arranged your house with proper wiring/sockets/plugs and rod in the ground. Fine. Well done. But don't be happy.

Your neighbour has similar wiring and local rod.

Your neighbour has a <deleted> up washing machine, leaking electrical potential to the bonding.

That <deleted> travels the ground and end up in your house. Neighbour <deleted> up, you get the electrical shocks.

If things get really <deleted> you can measure full potential between your grounding wire and real ground.

So, breakers, breakers, breakers, breakers and a few more breakers will assist you.

Mind you, this is not mainly a problem of clewless Thai electricians, its the Thai low voltage supply system that is the main problem.

I just say, be carefull, lots of people "park" annually in LoS and in my home country 'cause of the supply system.

[MiKT]

An Electrician in Thailand is more like a Magician. Your never more than a milliamp away from being electocuted in Thailand....Perhaps a pair of rubber flip flops would have saved his life. Sad.

I doubt it, a ground (under your feet) shock is usually not a killer - holding the pipes while touching a live connection is and is usually across the chest stopping the heart

They use plastic pipes in Thailand.

Next?

But not everwhere!

If you rely on that there will be no "next".

[thaibeachlovers]

RIP.

Water and domestic electrics worldwide isnt a very god mix but water and Thai electrical installation standards = accident waiting to happen.

I am not Thai bashing, it is a sad truth that Thai Electrical Installation Standards are not very high.

so you are blaming the Thais for this rather than blaming someone who was likely meddling with something he was not qualified to do, maybe a phone call to an electrician might have been the correct course of action - and I am electrically qualified and know the dangers

RIP

Who knows what happend?, I too am certified and qualified in electrical engineering and I stick by my statement that electrical installation standards here are severely lacking. This isn't the place to start an argument, it was a sad occurrence and RIP to the gentleman.

We don't have to see it to know that there was no functioning earth on the pump and no RCD on the house supply.

Whenever I have had a Thai electrician in to do a job I have had to redo the entire thing. One even connected grey wire to black and visa versa!

When asked to look at a lighting switch problem in someone's house I found that the lights were live all the time.

My RCD was the best 3,000 baht investment I ever made- saved my life a few times.

Edited June 7, 2015 by thaibeachlovers

[Rimmer]

A profane post attacking another member has been removed also the reply to it.

[crankshaft]

009.JPG

Amazing Thailand

Yes quite, show would it shock you if I told you at least 98% of those cables in that picture are not even power cables and further the coiled cable in his hand may even be a fibre optic cable

So with the above in mind what was the point you are trying to make ? Sure you are not trying to suggest the birds nest of cables are in fact power cables, thereby misrepresenting things and creating a false impression ?

It would be a very potential shock to the man standing in amongst those cables....probably most are telephone/cable/fibre wires...

if one looks closely at the picture...the upper rack of electrical (primary) which has 3 glass insulators on each wire and i would not hazard a guess to know what voltage passes through them...probably 14,500 volts at the least...

Where the man is grabbing the wire that has one insulator attach to the pole is probably a hot run of 220 volts from a transformer

There should be a neutral wire connection ( not insulated, a bare wire) between each pole back to the power station/substation (essentially a ground return path to the power station/substation)...but I can't seem to make it out in the photo

The bottom rack of electrical he is standing over or on...if one looks closely on the side of the cement pole at the height of the mans feet...one can see 3 runs of electrical attached to the pole (secondary)...each run only has one glass insulator...this three runs would be coming from a transformer...the top two are runs of 220 volts...the bottom should be a neutral back to the power station/substation (essentially a ground return path to the power station/substation)

Hot power lines are coated in insulation....but one can never trust insulation due to deterioration from age/weather etc. And with this photo being in Asia....I would have to assume there are illegal power wires connected in that mess also...

Just my two cents...and I would never climb into that mess...not for any any reason whatsoever....

[Brian Robson]

How to fight an electrical fire, Thai style!

In South Africa it is mandatory to have an earth leakage switch. Anything more than 20mA going to ground throws the main circuit breaker to the house!

[Rimmer]

A troll post in very poor taste has been removed

[anto]

An Electrician in Thailand is more like a Magician. Your never more than a milliamp away from being electocuted in Thailand....Perhaps a pair of rubber flip flops would have saved his life. Sad.

An Electrician in Thailand is called a motorbike taxi rider

He may also side line as a Plumber ,and tiler.

[Reigntax]

Yup ^^^.

And a 500 Baht RCBO would likely have saved him

Is there a difference with the voltage here? Many years ago, I was in my father's pool when the pump went off. I opened the box to switch it back on and accidentally hit a live wire as it was late at night. The current grabbed me, but luckily when I fell back, it let me go. Would a GFCI have helped with that??? Or is 120V less "dangerous". Just curious....

Again, RIP to this man and my heart goes out to his wife. How horrible.

Its the amps that kill you not the volts, if it was voltage, tasers would be killing everyone

You are dead wrong. It is the voltage that drives the current, measured in amperes. 220 V. is twice the voltage of 110 V. and more likely to drive a larger current through you to ground. 550 V. can kill you even if there is no load (and so no amperage) on the line. Just touch a live 550 v. buss and. if you are gorunded, it grabs you, forces all your muscles to spasm, so you can't breathe, until you die and relax and let go.

A TASER is DC and extremely high voltage in order to give you a shock, not a current like the Frenchman had going through his body. TASERS do kill people. It is not the voltage or lack of that kills it is the psychotic cops who get off on repeatedly shocking a person who is drunk of out of control - so his heart gives out, or he falls and dies from banging his head on something while unable to react normally because of the shock. Spark plug wires do the same thing - high voltage, tiny current - give you a shock.

Not the same as a 110 or 220/230v. AC source, which even with low amperage can electrocute you - different process, same result. Your heart takes a big hit.

If you touch an active buss with no load and fully ground yourself, you become the load, effectively a human resistor, your organs cook and muscles, especially heart muscles no longer function.

[davehowden]

It's AMPS that kill, not VOLTAGE.

[DirtyDan]

Recently I changed the wall isolating switches for the A/C and showers for safety ones, detect no earth etc. On turning the main switch box (RCD's) off I found by pure luck that the showers and A/C did NOT run through the switch box. I changed them live.

Most life-saving piece of equipment in my toolbox - a simple "point & light-up" circuit tester. Had to fix a light switch on the balcony a while back so shut off the main breaker to the condo... circuit tester showed the switch was still live! I'm guessing the builder have tied into the neighbours power due to laziness of wanting to run another line? Who knows.

RIP and prayers for his family.

[Kondiao]

It's AMPS that kill, not VOLTAGE.

You got it wrong. Current is the Dependent Variable in the equation. E = IR squared. That is the math.

Physically, If there is a source: a live wire, a live buss - and you make contact -the current (the AMPS as you refer to it) can go through you (and can kill you) if you are GROUNDED.

If you are not grounded - if you touch the live source with one hand - then the AMPS of current do not go through you - because the current goes through the conductor to the resistor/appliance/lamp, ignoring you.

If you touch a live 550 V. bus with no load on it (so NO AMPS) and you are grounded - e.g. you are standing on the dirt, or concrete, barefoot you will DIE.

IF you were wearing regulation safety boots with insulated soles then there will be zero AMPS going through your body - unless you are standing in a puddle of water - wet shoes, steel-tips, then you are grounded and you are the conductor - or if you touch that buss and touch a metal cabinet with the other hand -

Then you will DIE there.

It ain't about the amps.

[wooloomooloo]

RIP.

Water and domestic electrics worldwide isnt a very god mix but water and Thai electrical installation standards = accident waiting to happen.

I am not Thai bashing, it is a sad truth that Thai Electrical Installation Standards are not very high.

This is a major concern to me. I don't trust Thai electrical installations. I want to live in LOS eventually with my Thai wife but would have to bring in a decent British electrician to wire my home for peace of mind.

[thaibeachlovers]

RIP.

Water and domestic electrics worldwide isnt a very god mix but water and Thai electrical installation standards = accident waiting to happen.

I am not Thai bashing, it is a sad truth that Thai Electrical Installation Standards are not very high.

This is a major concern to me. I don't trust Thai electrical installations. I want to live in LOS eventually with my Thai wife but would have to bring in a decent British electrician to wire my home for peace of mind.

Why not do it yourself? Checking wiring isn't difficult if you are prepared to learn the basics. Main thing is to ensure you have a safety cut out ( RCD ) between where the outside wires enter the house and before the circuit breaker box. If you have one of those in the system it will save your life no matter how bad the existing wiring. I know, been saved a few times already. Even a Thai "electrician" shouldn't be able to stuff up installing one of those. I wouldn't recommend putting it in yourself as the wires will be live and no breaker.

[sandmike]

An Electrician in Thailand is more like a Magician. Your never more than a milliamp away from being electocuted in Thailand....Perhaps a pair of rubber flip flops would have saved his life. Sad.

I doubt it, a ground (under your feet) shock is usually not a killer - holding the pipes while touching a live connection is and is usually across the chest stopping the heart

Holding steel or copper pipes will do that, for sure. However, almost all piping here is a variety of PVC.

Maybe the guy did something wrong, but few installations have any earthing (grounding) system or have RCD's installed. Electrical installations here are definitely not up to the standards found elsewhere.

RIP

[Rimmer]

A derogatory off topic reference to a person of Polish descent has been removed.