Toilet vacuum issue

[thuisinthailand]

We have an issue with our toilet and at the moment and I do not exactly know how to solve it. I hope some of you here can help.

Our toilet is flushing ok, except when there is poo inside (toilet paper we throw in a separate basket anyway, otherwise it gets stuck). When we flush, in 'normal' situations (meaning with only water/pee in the toilet), directly after flushing a small bubble appears in the water, and then during the flushing the water goes away in circles (meaning the vacuum does work in some way), at the end there is a short gurgle. But in this case of only flushing with pee/water inside the toilet, the vacuum that gets the last water out should be much stronger and quicker (imho) then it does. But then when there is poo in the toilet, this process does not go smoothly at all and only after some 5 times of flushing (or sometimes even more, depending on the volume...) the toilet is clean again.

I have been thinking of what might be the problem, and came up with a few ideas:

(1) the air inlet into the toilet is not properly installed or too small (a pipe goes out from the toilet and up a bit into the air outside our house), and causes the vacuum to be too weak. Or

(2) the pipe from the toilet to the sceptic tank is too small. Or

(3) we have an issue with the sceptic tank itself.

Now I'm inclined to think the problem here is the air inlet (because of the weak vacuuming), but I'm not sure, as I'm no expert in this particular field.

So, any thoughts or ideas will be very much appreciated!

(PS: I don't think it is relevant, but he toilet brand name is American Standard)

[RichCor]

Can you better describe your system?

Septic Tank or City Sewer system?

What floor is the toilet on (Feet or Meters above ground level)

Toilet Type (Gravity-feed water reserve tank of >5 liters, or Direct water jet system)?

Is it the only toilet on the line?

When flushing a toilet, a temporary vacuum can be created in the line but that that's the only time a vacuum is normally present as sewer/septic gases normally build over time.

Both a line vent pipe and the toilet's built-in water trap are used to prevent the normal build-up of line gases from sewer/septic system from entering the house.

Non-effective flushing can be caused by...

a full or almost full septic tank, or impacted sewer line that needs to be cleaned/flushed

a sewer/septic line that's not properly venting (preventing quick water ingress/air egress exchange to take place)

an insufficient flow of water necessary to empty the bowl

ALSO... Take a look at this old GardenWeb forum thread for some other suggestions (sorry about the javascript banner)

Edited June 6, 2015 by RichCor

[kamalabob2]

You could contact American Standard representatives in Thailand. Once a month, and only one day a month, will American Standard send a repair person to Buriram Province under the limited warranty of new American Standard products. They will mail parts of an "older" toilet if you pay in full in advance and include four times the cost of the actual shipping fee in addition to the list price cost of the parts. Lixil sells two brands of toilets in Thailand. They will answer questions in English via e-mail.

MR.PAIROT SOMJIT

TECHNICAL SERVICE SUPERVISOR (CCC-PATTAYA )

LIXIL (Thailand) Public Company Limited

Tel: +66 38 716710

Mobile: +668 9901 2166

http://www.americanstandard.co.th/
http://global.lixil.co.jp/

[email protected]

[bankruatsteve]

My recall of the many previous threads on this subject have the cause narrowed down to: 1) something lodged in the toilet trap restricting flow 2) the cesspit (not septic tank) is full.

[sirineou]

Firstly did it always do that or did it just start?

if it always did that your problem is most likely an improperly installed vent line, in order that the water flows properly

the air in the drain pipe needs to be evacuated via the vent pipe

Inspect the vent pipe for obstructions and or proper installation

Second if it worked properly before but now it does not, again inspect vent for obstruction, and if you have not done so yet

inspect drain it self line for obstruction. First use a plunger to dislodge obstruction, if plunger does not work, use snake tool

Snake tool is a long wire with a corkscrew in the front that you push (snake) trough the drain line while it spins

a snake tool can be purchased in most home repair stores

this is a simple type there are many others , some power operated

do not try to put it through your toilet bowl as it will scratch your porcelain

there should be a clean-out plug lust outside your bathroom wall

but TIT, if a clean out does not exist, and youhave to go through the toilet bowl. place some rugs to protect the bowl

Good luck

.

[thuisinthailand]

Thanks everyone for your replies so far! Will have a closer look tomorrow (into your replies as well as the toilet itself...).

[properperson]

sounds like you need a durgo valve:

http://www.diydata.com/plumbing/air_admittance_valve/air_admittance_valve.php

i've got a spare one (new - never used) if you're interested...

[thuisinthailand]

I think we narrowed down the possible reasons for our toilet issue. I don't think the venting is the problem, but I think now it is an issue with the toilet itself.

I'll answer to some of your replies first.

Can you better describe your system?

Septic Tank or City Sewer system?

What floor is the toilet on (Feet or Meters above ground level)

Toilet Type (Gravity-feed water reserve tank of >5 liters, or Direct water jet system)?

Is it the only toilet on the line?

We have a septic tank. In our kitchen there is a device on the floor we can open in order to 'enter' the tank. Toilet is on the ground floor and it is the only one we have. I think we have a gravity feed water reserve tank, our toilet does look exactly like the image in your post.

Firstly did it always do that or did it just start?

if it always did that your problem is most likely an improperly installed vent line, in order that the water flows properly

the air in the drain pipe needs to be evacuated via the vent pipe

Inspect the vent pipe for obstructions and or proper installation

Before we moved into the house, the problem existed already. We had the bathroom completely renewed, but re-used the old toilet as it seemed ok. The Thai plumber himself suggested that we needed a vent pipe (apparently that did not exist before... so I thought that was clever thinking of him, it was just a pity that he only came up with the idea after completing the tiling first....), so he made one. And it works great, as long as we only flush the toilet with water inside, the venting / vacuuming is good. Now since the problem existed before, and is here again, I am thinking the problem might be the toilet itself. We did not inspect it before we had it replaced on the same spot after finishing the new bathroom. So I think the snake tool that you suggest might be a good thing to try first.

sounds like you need a durgo valve:

http://www.diydata.com/plumbing/air_admittance_valve/air_admittance_valve.php

i've got a spare one (new - never used) if you're interested...

Could be that we need one of those. I looked at the link you send, but I don't really understand how this device works. Where do you put it in a toilet? Or do you put it in a toilet at all?

If this device is the solution to our problem, I would be certainly interested in your spare one. But I think we first have to establish if the problem is in the toilet itself. Because every time I solve to issue with the drain glogging device, the toilet works fine again and keeps on doing so as long as we only flush water-like items...

So next stop is Home Pro to get a snake tool device. I'll let you know the results of that.

[RichCor]

Here's a quick test for you:

Fill a nice size bucket full of water and tip it all at once into the bowl.

The immediate large about of water should quickly leave the bowl, and a good siphon effect should leave only a small amount of water remaining in the bowl.

Repeat this test 3-4 times should have the same result.

If the bowl evacuation worked properly each time with the full bucket then your actual issue will be with the clean-water flush cycle mechanism, where the clean-water isn't entering the bowl with quickly enough with enough water volume to execute the evacuation-siphon action.

Depending on how the water enters the bowl, you may need to clean excess mineral deposits from the water pathway. Some DIY sites recommend using a nail or a loose drill-bit to help clean the many rim holes to increase the rate water flows into the bowl during a flush cycle.

[wayned]

Agree with above. But if the rim holes are clogged with sediment, trying to stand on your head or use a mirror to clean them is a waste of time. Get a new toilet. I have the problem with both of my toilets and have tried various methods to clean them with no luck. I'm still flushing both with small buckets of water filled with the bum gun after two years because I haven't gotten around to replacing them!

[thuisinthailand]

Here's a quick test for you:

Fill a nice size bucket full of water and tip it all at once into the bowl.

The immediate large about of water should quickly leave the bowl, and a good siphon effect should leave only a small amount of water remaining in the bowl.

Repeat this test 3-4 times should have the same result.

If the bowl evacuation worked properly each time with the full bucket then your actual issue will be with the clean-water flush cycle mechanism, where the clean-water isn't entering the bowl with quickly enough with enough water volume to execute the evacuation-siphon action.

Depending on how the water enters the bowl, you may need to clean excess mineral deposits from the water pathway. Some DIY sites recommend using a nail or a loose drill-bit to help clean the many rim holes to increase the rate water flows into the bowl during a flush cycle.

Ok, did the test. Here's wat happens:

When tipping a nice full bucket of water into the bowl, the water is leaving pretty soon in about 4-5 seconds. Test nr 2,3 and 4 had the same result. After, I flushed the toilet and noted almost the same time for emptying the bowl, maybe a fraction of a second slower, but I think that is because it is not the exact same amount of water as in the bucket. The only noticeable things that happens at the end, is that the toilet empties itself completely, before bringing back a small amount of water into the bowl. Oh, and one additional remark, I thought that with only water the toilet is working perfectly, but this evening I emptied a full glass of orange juice in the toilet, and after flushing a slight orange colour remained.

So, any ideas?

Not the toilet itself but a venting problem after all?

[RichCor]

If the toilet is flushing fine with the bucket of water then that portion of the flush mechanism is working fine (in that it's not showing any indication of a blocked line and the flush/siphon effect functions as desired).

Take the lid off the tank and look at how much water is in the upper tank. It should be almost full, close to entering the overflow tube (if present).

If, when using the normal handle flush process, you don't get a complete flush cycle then the issue is speed and amount of clean-water release (so either clean-water release is too slow, not enough water volume is released, or both issues present).

While you can repeat the bucket experiment using the same/similar amount of water released during a normal flush, I think you're still looking at how fast the clean-water is released into the bowl from the upper tank so that the flush/siphon process is created as quickly as possible.

During a normal handle flush you should observe clean-water quickly 'rush' into the bowl, raising the level in the bowl only a bit, then start evacuating the bowl and ending in a flush/siphon effect, almost completely empty (similar to the full bucket experiment)

...the upper tank flapper/seal should re-seat and the upper tank should start to refill (while diverting some fresh-water back into the bowl so the water-seal is re-established to prevent sewer-line odors from entering up via the bowl).

Questions:

Is the upper fresh-water tank re-filling properly? Is not, what's preventing it from filling full?

Is the handle flush-cycle happening quickly?

If not, then as Wayned might predict, a new toilet may be in your future.

[krisb]

I didn't read the replies but I suspect the breather pipe that usually goes through the roof isn't there. It allows air in for the water to escape.

[krisb]

Breather pipes on the drain btw.

[passingas]

sounds like you need a durgo valve:

http://www.diydata.com/plumbing/air_admittance_valve/air_admittance_valve.php

i've got a spare one (new - never used) if you're interested...

If you still have this, I would gladly buy it from you. I have a venting issue with a single toilet and I've trying to design something like this (impossible to find/buy here) to take care of the vent issue. I live in Phayao province. pg

[thuisinthailand]

To all who replied to this topic: we have solved the issue. First, we installed the durgo valve, as suggested by @properson. It did work (the vacuuming improved), but did not entirely solve our problem. There was still some obstruction from time to time. Then, we also bought ourselves a snake tool, as suggested by @sirineou. Since then, our toilet is working very well. So, at least for the time being, no new toilet or opening up of the files on the floor required....

Thanks everyone for all your help and suggestions!