House Construction

[penzman]

Foooofffff, I have NO knowledge whatsoever with electrical wiring and I just finished reading a whole thread about getting shocks from the PC, etc. I must admit I'm still just as confused...

Our new house(small,2 bedrooms) is being built (CHONBURI) and after talking with the contractor today, the GF told me there are no ground wires or 3 wire grounded outlets being installed...

He then asked to indicate on the walls which outlets we want to be grounded...

I want EVERYTHING grounded (lights, outlets, switches, shower's water heater,etc.)

I got quite a few shocks in the appartment we're living in now.

So, once the electrical (with grounds) is all done in and around the house, what should i be looking for in order to see if it was properly done...

I AM LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WHO COULD DO AN INSPECTION, or very simple instructions to see if it was properly done.

PENZMAN

[Basher]

You really need an earth loop impeadance test, but TiT so basically what you need to do is make sure that the sparky has installed a earth stake at least 2 meters long, hammered into the ground, make sure he terminates the ground cable from this to the distribution box, make sure all connections are nice and tight.

Then do the same for all the sockets in the house, if you do have access top a meter that has Ohms on it use a nice long thick cable (10mm) and check between all the socket earths starting at the 1st nearest the dist box, then one at a time and make sure the ohm reading is nice and low, down to say 10-20 ohms. the longer the run the higher the resistance by the way.

This is not the precise way to do this but at least you would know if you have a good connection.

By the way, get a thai bloke to do this just in case they have wired the earth wire to the hot side..... he will get the shock not you !!

Bash

[Boon Mee]

First off make sure your service entrance - the breaker box - is fully grounded with a copper rod buried securely in the ground outside your house to a depth of at least three feet.

If the contractor ran only two wire lead to each of your receptacles it'll be a hassle to run the third lead (ground) back to your box. Or, as an alternative, to a copper water pipe.

It is imparitive to get GFI's (ground fault interupters) fitted in your bath, kitchen & laundry areas. Anywhere there's water in close proximity. Less chance of death.

I haven't started building my home yet in LOS so can't give exact up-to-date advice on what's out there in terms of hardware. I've still got a lot of 110volt stuff I'm going to need transformers to run.

Best of luck...

[KevinN]

PENZMAN; It is hard to find 3 wire romax or what ever you want to call your service wire but it can be had with the 3 prong connectors and plug in boxes, The EA is reccomending that 3 wire grounded service be used,but they didn't know where I could get it,,

We live in Phetchabun and there is one store in town that sold the wire and hardware for it. I would make sure that they run the 3 wire and put in the right boxes to use it,if they have run 2 wire,I would make them take it out and put in the correct thing,I got awfully tired of getting shocks off the micro and computers and any other electric appliance, now since I had the new house built we can go bare foot and never worry about shocks,every plug in my house is 3 wire and I hooked some up and made sure that all were hooked correctly before I OK'd the job. And I bought and hammered the copper rod in the ground myself.

And make sure that they use wire of a big enough size to do what you want to do,they will try to use wire that is to small to efficently carry the loads as it is cheaper to buy.If it is overloaded it will cause a lot of heat and might burn something up.

[penzman]

I heading out to the house now to see how they will proceed if i can see the contractor himself.

[Guest IT Manager]

Check cables are 2.5 square mm for all power.

1.5 square mm for lighting circuits.

You can't use Multiple Earthed Neutrals, since you will ground the street.

Best is to put a ground block in the power box and run an extra (preferrably) green wire to all sockets you want to ground, back to that point.

You can ground point to point and achieve this but I would be looking for a lot less than 20 ohms to the ground. Perfect world less than 2, but it isn't a perfect world.

Make sure he only uses circuit breakers with separate circuits for light, A/C, Power points, Pumps and Heaters for water etc.

Good luck.

[Rinrada]

Silly question but..What standards is you wiring installed to...British,(NICEIC) US (NEC) Japanese or let me guess.... thai....2 wires in 2 wires out...and no earth?

O dear..Get a hold of a spark...dont mess about...its dangerous...sorry Installing an Earth/Ground cable offers protection in the case of a fault but is not absolute.You gotta get the installation checked out.

[p_brownstone]

Whilst an Earth Circuit in the house is a very good idea, you will find that a LOT of appliances you buy in Thailand do not have an Earth wire at all, 2 pin plugs are standard, and there is no Earth Terminal in the unit itself so you cannot simply change the plug and cable.

Obviously in this situation your Earth Circuit will offer no protection.

To protect against a electric shock from these appliances you should also install an Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker on the line - most good Electrical shops, even the bigger corner hardware shops, carry them.

[GuestHouse]

Advice from an Electrical Engineer

Install an Earth Leakage Breaker Set, I recommend Siemans, they are a little more exepensive than the Thai version but they are worth the money. You can find them at most of the larger Electrical Suppliers in Pattaya.

1. Buy a set that includes

Instalation Box

Earth Leakage Breaker

One Breaker for each of the following circuits

--- Lighting Circuit

--- Power Outlet Circuit

--- Cooker Circuit

--- Shower Circuit

--- Aircon Circuit

The store can advise you on what ratings to choose but do not over rate.

2. Get your contractor to install the box and breakers.

3. Visual Inspection

Check the following:

-- Take a look at where the wiring comes into the House, it should be like this:

First the main feed wire should come to a large switch (Two Pole)

Second the Wires should come out of the large switch into your circuit breaker box

Third the main feed wires should connect into the top (or bottom) of the Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker (it depends on which model you have).

NOTE: There must not be any other wires inthes connections - you should have the two main wires coming in and nothing else connected in these terminals.

Swtch off that first main switch and check with a screw driver that all terminals are tight.

Check that there is not bare wire and that all the insulation is good and not cut.

There should be no insulation tape used, only the proper wire insulation.

4. Get your contractor to do the following test and WATCH HIM DO IT.. or do it yourself. These are essential tests!

You will need:

A length of wire, perhaps four or five meters long

A Test meter that measures AC voltage and a set of probes.

A roll of insulation tape

(Follow this procedure).

First make a test wire as follows:

--Get a long piece of wire (long enough to reach from your garden to the Breaker Box), any electical wire will do.

-- Remove the insulation from one end (make about 1 meter of bare wire)

-- Dig a small hole and bury the bare end of the wire in your garden, make syre the wire is well burried and then pour a bucket of water over the whole to make sure you have a good ground connection.

-- Run the other end of the wire into the house and up to the breaker box.

-- Strip off the insulation for about 1cm (half an inch).

Now to do the test.

-- Makesure the electricity supply is on.

-- Switch your test meter to AC 250 Volts or 500 V

-- Measure the voltage accross the INPUT terminals of your Circuit breaker (The point where the main feed is connected into the switch box). You should read something over 200 V, depending on how good your supply is.

-- Now Connect one of your meter leads to the test wire and tape over the connection (This will prevent you from electricutiong yourself).

-- Now with the other lead, measure the voltage on the Live (Marked "L") input to the Circuit breaker ( The main feed coming in at its first connection)

You should read the same 200 volts.

-- Now do the same measurement on the Neutral (Marked "N") you should read Zero Volts.

If you read Zero Volts on the Live and 200 plus Volts on the Neutral then your Live and Neutral are crossed - get your contractor to correct the wiring and REPEAT THE TEST

When you are happy that you have 200 plus on the live and Zero on the Neutral you can test if your Earth Leakage Breaker is working.

If you get anything above 20 Volts on the Neutral get your contractor to call the Electricity Company they (NOT YOU) have a dangerous problem with their (NOT YOUR) circuit.

And don't let them tell you it's your falt if you find this.

Push Button Test

Make sure the electricity is turned on and simply press the test button.

The Eath Breaker should imediately pop off.

If it does not get your contractor to check the installation.

IF THERE IS NO TEST PUSH BUTTON THEN THE BREAKER IS NOT AN EARTH LEAKAGE TYPE. Kick your contractor in the balls and tell him to sort his shit.

A Real Test

-- First makesure the Push Button Test is working.

-- Switch the mains power off and check that it is off with your meter.

-- Now take the end of the test wire that you brought into the house (making sure the other end is still burried in the garden and poke it into one side of a Power Outlet Socket.... yep that's what I said, poke it into one side of a power outlet socket.

-- Now go switch the power back on - The Circuit breaker should pop off

But nothing happend

That's because you are on the Neutral side.

-- Try again.. Switch off the power, check with your meter and now move the test wire to the other side of the power socket (the other hole).

-- Now put the power on and the relay will pop.

The Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker Measures the differnce between how mcuh electricity has gone through the breaker and how much comes back, if there is a difference then it must be leaking to earth and so the breaker switches off the power - Now you know where the name came from.

There is no need to put an earth bar or earthe anything in the house because your earth leakage breaker does not need an earth

[GuestHouse]

When you have done all that write to the BBC and they will give you a Blue Peter Badge.

[GuestHouse]

If your house has fuses, go out today and get them changed to an Earth Leakage Breaker.

Fuses only work if the Live and Neutral are the right way round and my guess is that if you do the test of polority that I suggest above half of you will find your circuits are the wrong way around.... go on check...

[penzman]

Thanks for all the great advice, I will print it out and re-read carefully. Guesthouse, I particularly like your step by step instructions

[jayenram]

All the socket outlets in my house are earthed, three pin. However, I find it exremely frustrating that the only compatible plugs that I have found to date have been the big black rubber ugly things.

Another thing, whenever you see a three pin socket multi-plug bar, the plug on the end is only 2 pin live and nuetral.

T.i.T

[penzman]

Jayenram, read your post, looking right now at the plug on the end of that 3 socket power-bar(did not have to move, it's right above my pc screen) .... 2 pins!!!

[KevinN]

And if you take the plug strip apart and look inside,you will find that only two holes are hooked up and the third is just a dummy as there is no wire connecting them inside...

[GuestHouse]

This is important

If you have fuses in your house but your incomming Live and Neutral are crossed, no amount of earth bars, earth wires, or three pin pugs will protect you against getting electricuted.

If the incoming supplies are crossed, then the fuse is in the Neutral, and will do nothing to protect you if there is a short circuit.

The fuse can blow but the current will still flow, electricuting you or more commonly start a fire.

Do the checks I suggest above.

If you can't follow the instructions get an electrician to do them for you.

[astral]

And if you take the plug strip apart and look inside,you will find that only two holes are hooked up and the third is just a dummy as there is no wire connecting them inside...

A simple way to test if a socket does have the earth pin connected is

make up a cable with a lamp socket on one end and a 3 pin plug on the other.

Connect the two wires of the lamp to the live pin, should be the right hand side as you face the socket, with the earth at the top,

and the other wire to the earth.

O Earth

Neutral O O Live

If the lamp lights then the socket does have an earth connection.

Note. If you have a earth leakage breaker, as recommended in these posts,

it should also trip.

[stumonster]

couple of notes to guesthouse's post

If you have an electrical hotwater system( urn type ) or an electric stove they should each be on its own seperate circuit breaker.

I do believe in having an earth bar connected to an earth stake buried to a depth of at least 1 metre into the ground outside the house.

all electrical appliances with a metal case should have a 3 pin plug on them( except for the hot water and stove which should be hard wired ) in which the earth should be tracable to the earth outside.

an ELCB ( earth leakage circuit breaker ) is slightly different to an RCD ( residual current device ) , but both are proven life savers.. and very cheap.

[cbatson]

And if you take the plug strip apart and look inside,you will find that only two holes are hooked up and the third is just a dummy as there is no wire connecting them inside...

Power strips with an actual ground can be found if you look. I got some at a computer center. Also be careful, some power strips I have bought have had the hot and neutral wires swapped!

Chuck

[lopburi3]

Good advise. Number one priority IMHO should always be the simple to install GFI/ELCB or whatever we want to call it. With tile floors and bare feet all areas of the house should be protected. It only costs about 2,000 baht for a Safe-T-Cut type breaker that can protect your whole house/apartment and can be installed easily. Second would be grounded outlets/appliances. This may cost more but will also remove a lot of nuisance problems (such as radio reception on the computer phone lines etc). Three wire type electrical equipment is easily available now here in Bangkok at even the small electrical shops. Home Pro offers a choice of non black rubber plugs and also carries adapters to convert the din type plug to three pin for many of the appliances now sold here. Not cheap at 40 or 50 baht but looks much better than changing molded plug.

For those not living here would say you are very unlikely to find any copper water lines and (for those of us from 120v lands) remember that when using 220 volts you need less copper to carry the same current so what we may suspect is substandard wire size may be fine. I would be more concerned with the insulation of the wire from my experience as it is often loose and easily nicked. With surface wiring and cement construction there is not too much of an overload causing fire problem here (except when insurance money is required).

[jayenram]

the only compatible plugs that I have found to date have been the big black rubber ugly things.

I shall update that comment. I found 'white' (almost) three pin plugs in Central on Sunday. Not up to much, though.

[Pink Mist]

couple of notes to guesthouse's post

If you have an electrical hotwater system( urn type ) or an electric stove they should each be on its own seperate circuit breaker.

I do believe in having an earth bar connected to an earth stake buried to a depth of at least 1 metre into the ground outside the house.

all electrical appliances with a metal case should have a 3 pin plug on them( except for the hot water and stove which should be hard wired ) in which the earth should be tracable to the earth outside.

an ELCB ( earth leakage circuit breaker ) is slightly different to an RCD ( residual current device ) , but both are proven life savers.. and very cheap.

Whats the difference Stu?

I am an "A class" electrician here in OZ and was told they are the same device, the names were changed to make the acronym more saleable.

They are connected in exactly the same fashion.

The ELCB compares current flowing in both active and neutral, if out of balance occured then device tripped, it wasnt really leaking to earth but the assumption is that what is in one should be flowing in the other, if not it is going to earth.

RCD is the same but if I am misinformed, then allways willing to learn, these things wern't used when I did my apprentiship.

[malcolminthemiddle]

Hi Everyone,

I am building a family house in Hua Hin. I am in the construction business but work most of the time outside Thailand so I'm not in the position to supervise the construction myself. Plan is I will employ an experienced expat to supervise the construction on my behalf. To help him police the work I am developing a "check list" which he has to follow during the different construction phases. The building works check list for the structural work is nearly finished but I need a check list for the building services such as electrical, power, air-cond, plumbing, internal & external lighting, telephone etc. Any help would be gratefully received.

[dragonmasterzip]

First make sure you are using 3 strand wire. in States it is call NM with ground.

Next look in your electrical box

Hot wires come off the outside of the circuit breakers

common wire is white and goes to an outside block.

in most boxes across teh otp is place for the goud connector.

all the other posts have covered this.

They make a simple tester which can be plugged into outlets. They make them for every system in the world.

they have a set of lights which will tell you if the circuit is wired backwards (reversed polarity or white wire is where the black or red depending on code use wire should be)

they will show if there is an open ground ie the ground wire is not hooked up and correctly grounded.

Get one of these testers and get a good book on electrical wiring.

In the US there are some great books on house building and contracting which would help anyone who was building a house.

Gives you check lists ofthings you need to look for and make sure your contractor does.

Other books on electrical and plumbing are very useful to understand how things should be set up.

I used to build houses. I knew lots of stuff in these books. I have learned something new and useful in every single book I bought and read. Think about how much a Mistake costs you down the road in the repair cost and teh aggravation cost.

I would budget $400 for books and read them cover to cover before I broke ground.

if you want a list of my recommendations let me know.

[penzman]

I went over today and what do you know... OOOoooooaaaahhhh, green wires! There are bare ones still hanging for both a/c units that will be in the bedrooms. There are 3 pin outlets everywhere but did not have a tool with me to pop them open and check if they were really connected.

I ll let you know how they did later on this week.

Thanks for all the tips and advice on here . Printed most of it.

BTW, for the testing i'll be wearing a wetsuit, rubber boots, rubber gloves and 2 condoms... just in case .

Dipping a few times up to my neck in a big tub of liquid silicone also came to my mind but i still haven't found a way to manage solid waste evacuation from the suit.

[Maejo Man]

Whilst an Earth Circuit in the house is a very good idea, you will find that a LOT of appliances you buy in Thailand do not have an Earth wire at all, 2 pin plugs are standard, and there is no Earth Terminal in the unit itself so you cannot simply change the plug and cable.

A fair question on the two pin appliances. Firstly, a lot of these appliances are what is called "double insulated" and do not require an separate earth pin on the plug.

Double insulated simply means that the power supply entering the appliance to transformer or motor , is insulated from any other part of the unit, and that the unit normally has an insulated body as well. i.e. a glass filled nylon of filled polyproylene body. Most hand power tools such as drills and saws fall into this category, along with hair dryers and the like, and are not supplied with three pin plugs, and quite safe to use.

Appliances such as toasters, and small electric ovens with metal cases should definately be earthed. If supplied with two pin plugs, re-wire them with three core cable, and make sure that the case is well earthed.

Why do you think Thai fridges are always sitting on a wooden or plastic base?

[stumonster]

bronco,

sorry I did not reply earlier, I must have gone away for a few days and forgotten about this topic.

it seems RCD does in fact cover elcb, elcb is an older name apparently.

this seems to be a good page.

http://www.westernautomation.com/pages/demystify.htm

Some of the most common acronyms are:

RCD - Residual Current Device (New Zealand/Australia/Europe)

ELCB - Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker (New Zealand/Australia and Asia)

RCBO - Residual Current Circuit Breaker with integral over-current protection (Europe)

RCCB - Residual Current Circuit Breaker (Europe)

GFCI - Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters (USA/Canada)

still a device of this type should be installed in your house as they are a proven life saver.

bronco I have a sth aust A grade but I am an instro by trade...you done any work up in the cooper basin?

[kokesaat]

In our rural home in Thailand, we have a Siemens (5SM1316-6) 63A 30mA RCCB installed with the wiring going from our meter outdoors, into our home via an underground cable inside electrical PVC, to the RCCB which is connected just below the circuit breaker box. Our RCCB seems to be subject to nuisance tripping brought about by transient fault currents caused by lightning in the immediate vicinity. With a storm overhead, there's no telling whether the RCCB will trip or not. Sometimes lightning strikes overhead and the RCCB doesn't pop. Other times it does. When we're home, we can easily reset the RCCB. However, if we're away for a few days and the RCCB trips, we risk spoiling the food in our refrigerator. Is there something I can install that will prevent these arbitrary RCCB trips?

With all the horror stories about electrical wiring in Thailand, those of you who are knowledgeable about such things must gasp for air when you walk down the streets and witness some of the electrical nightmares hanging from main stree power poles!

Thanks for the assistance.

[dragonmasterzip]

First after you have a house hit directly with lightning, and you have watched your TV, VCR and computers melt internally, you will no longer think the tripping is a nusciance.

I do not know aobut Seimens stuff, but there is a breaker which will automatically reset itself one minute or so after it has been tripped.

Also 35 amps is not very much. In Japan I put a 50 amp breaker in. Here in the states I have a 200 amp main breaker.

[andy50]

In our rural home in Thailand, we have a Siemens (5SM1316-6) 63A 30mA RCCB installed with the wiring going from our meter outdoors, into our home via an underground cable inside electrical PVC, to the RCCB which is connected just below the circuit breaker box.  Our RCCB seems to be subject to nuisance tripping brought about by transient fault currents caused by lightning in the immediate vicinity.  With a storm overhead, there's no telling whether the RCCB will trip or not.  Sometimes lightning strikes overhead and the RCCB doesn't pop.  Other times it does.  When we're home, we can easily reset the RCCB.  However, if we're away for a few days and the RCCB trips, we risk spoiling the food in our refrigerator.  Is there something I can install that will prevent these arbitrary RCCB trips?

With all the horror stories about electrical wiring in Thailand, those of you who are knowledgeable about such things must gasp for air when you walk down the streets and witness some of the electrical nightmares hanging from main stree power poles!

Thanks for the assistance.

kokesaat' here in the uk the freezer point,is wired on its own circuit,and connected to a non rcd breaker in the mains box which is a "split box"some circuits are non rcd protected,some are-- ,only circuits that need to be rcd protected are wired to the rcd protected breakers,(sockets, electric shower ,any appliances in the bath room)--the circuits that dont really need rcd protection,(lighting,a/c,freezer,refrigerator)are connected to the non rcd breakers,if the rcd trips,for any reason, these circuits remain live, (the face of the outlet point is usually engraved "freezer only non rcd protected"so that its never used for anything else,other than the freezer, same with any other unprotected outlets ) make sure that you test your rcd trip regularly, using the test button on it, as a lightning strike may burn out the electronics within it and render it useless, hope this helps