Israel report backs Gaza war actions

[Harveyg]

Israel wants respect in a two-state relationship with Palestine but interacts with Palestine only in a one-state relationship.

The conflict between Palestine and Israel will continue until Palestine becomes a recognized nation with the right of own sovereignty.

Quite right. In that case the sworn allegiance to Israel's destruction will evaporate right? Let bygones be bygones. And who will guarantee the peace? You?

[Steely Dan]

The Arabs have realized long ago that they will never defeat Israel militarily, so instead they indulge in terrorism. The aim of terrorism is principally to provoke a response where civilians get killed. The press are unindicted accessories to the fact. We're it not for their willingness to uncritically parrot Hamas talking points and accept their claims without proof the impetus to play the media like a fiddle would disappear. Here is Richard Kemp explaining the role the press plays in this and why

Israel has to go to such lengths to explain its use of the legitimate right of self defense.

Quote from link :

https://www.nlg.org/sites/default/files/Attack%20First%20Kill%20thousands%20Claim%20Self-Defense%20FINAL.pdf#overlay-context=resource/letters/palestine-subcommittee-submission-icc-re-israeli-self-defense-claims

Certainly, the Rome Statute recognizes a place for self-defense. Article 31© of the statute exempts from criminal responsibility acts by a person “reasonably to defend himself or herself or another person ... against an imminent and unlawful use of force in a manner proportionate to the degree of danger to the person or the other person.”

However, the article then expressly states, “The fact that the person was involved in a defensive operation conducted by forces shall not in itself constitute a ground for excluding criminal responsibility.”

Thus, even if the facts and law were consistent with the Israeli and U.S. claim of self-defense against rockets – which they are not – nothing in the Rome Statute would automatically exempt Israeli political leaders and military personnel from criminal responsibility for ordering or carrying out such defensive operations if those operations included violations of the statute, such as by : targeting civilians or civilian property, using weapons in heavily populated areas that are inherently incapable of being targeted to distinguish civilian from military objectives, and going forward with attacks in which the foreseeable damage to civilians or civilian property is disproportionate to the anticipated military advantage.

Thanks for the legalese. There is not a Country on Earth that would avoid potentially falling foul of the ICC were they placed in Israel's shoes. Everyone knows this, which is why this whole issue takes on the ludicrous air of pantomime.

[Thorgal]

The Arabs have realized long ago that they will never defeat Israel militarily, so instead they indulge in terrorism. The aim of terrorism is principally to provoke a response where civilians get killed. The press are unindicted accessories to the fact. We're it not for their willingness to uncritically parrot Hamas talking points and accept their claims without proof the impetus to play the media like a fiddle would disappear. Here is Richard Kemp explaining the role the press plays in this and why

Israel has to go to such lengths to explain its use of the legitimate right of self defense.

Quote from OP :

"Over the weekend, Israel released a report compiled by a group of retired Western military officers who found that Israel met or "significantly exceeded" the international laws of war. The report was sponsored by the "Friends of Israel Initiative," a pro-Israel group of retired politicians and diplomats from around the world."

Is Col Richard Kemp also a member of "Friend of Israel Initiative" ?

400 foreign ex-military high officers are providing membership in this fellowship...

http://www.jinsa.org/programs/about-jinsas-generals-and-admirals-program-israel

They've provided a full report on the Gaza war that IDF actions are "significantly exceeding the standards of International Law"...

Which authority do they represent with their undeolontogical expertise ?

[Linky]

The Arabs have realized long ago that they will never defeat Israel militarily, so instead they indulge in terrorism. The aim of terrorism is principally to provoke a response where civilians get killed. The press are unindicted accessories to the fact. We're it not for their willingness to uncritically parrot Hamas talking points and accept their claims without proof the impetus to play the media like a fiddle would disappear. Here is Richard Kemp explaining the role the press plays in this and why
Israel has to go to such lengths to explain its use of the legitimate right of self defense.

Whats your point. That the kids weren't really killed by Israel?

The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas, which furthermore actually sought Palestian casualties so the whole UN ICC circus could come about.

Wow, i've heard everything now.

Thats like saying if the Jews weren't in Germany there would not have been a holocaust, so its their own fault.

There are just no depths some of you will stoop. Innocent kids murdered by Israel and its always someone elses fault.

The Jews in Germany were not busy lobbing rockets at or trying to kill the Germans. Nor might I add did they use their own children as human shields or cannon fodder in order to make the Germans look bad.

Next.

What mattered was the Germans considered they had enough reason to do it. Much like you saying It was perfectly reasonable for Israel to murder children, its always someone elses fault.


Next

[RustBucket]

The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas, which furthermore actually sought Palestian casualties so the whole UN ICC circus could come about.

Wow, i've heard everything now.

Thats like saying if the Jews weren't in Germany there would not have been a holocaust, so its their own fault.

There are just no depths some of you will stoop. Innocent kids murdered by Israel and its always someone elses fault.

The Jews in Germany were not busy lobbing rockets at or trying to kill the Germans. Nor might I add did they use their own children as human shields or cannon fodder in order to make the Germans look bad.

Next.

What mattered was the Germans considered they had enough reason to do it. Much like you saying It was perfectly reasonable for Israel to murder children, its always someone elses fault.

Next

Another bleeding heart who has received his entire middle east education via the liberal western mainstream media.

You opinion counts for nowt.... That is so obvious.

Hamas use schools, hospitals, the elderly and children as sheilds to fire their rockets from to feed the western propaganda machine.

The real genocide will happen to the Isrealis if they were to lay down their arms and ask for peace.

They would be murdered.

[Seastallion]

The Arabs have realized long ago that they will never defeat Israel militarily, so instead they indulge in terrorism. The aim of terrorism is principally to provoke a response where civilians get killed. The press are unindicted accessories to the fact. We're it not for their willingness to uncritically parrot Hamas talking points and accept their claims without proof the impetus to play the media like a fiddle would disappear. Here is Richard Kemp explaining the role the press plays in this and why

Israel has to go to such lengths to explain its use of the legitimate right of self defense.

Whats your point. That the kids weren't really killed by Israel?

The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas, which furthermore actually sought Palestian casualties so the whole UN ICC circus could come about.

"The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas,"

Hamas would not have acted had it not been for the actions of Israel.

The kids would not have been killed if gunpowder had not been invented.

How far back do you want to go?

Israel killed the boys. Don't blame Hamas. Israel pulled the trigger, not Hamas.

[Steely Dan]

The Arabs have realized long ago that they will never defeat Israel militarily, so instead they indulge in terrorism. The aim of terrorism is principally to provoke a response where civilians get killed. The press are unindicted accessories to the fact. We're it not for their willingness to uncritically parrot Hamas talking points and accept their claims without proof the impetus to play the media like a fiddle would disappear. Here is Richard Kemp explaining the role the press plays in this and why

Israel has to go to such lengths to explain its use of the legitimate right of self defense.

Whats your point. That the kids weren't really killed by Israel?

The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas, which furthermore actually sought Palestian casualties so the whole UN ICC circus could come about.

"The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas,"

Hamas would not have acted had it not been for the actions of Israel.

The kids would not have been killed if gunpowder had not been invented.

How far back do you want to go?

Israel killed the boys. Don't blame Hamas. Israel pulled the trigger, not Hamas.

Hamas have the avowed aim of getting rid of Israel, there are no actions the Israelis could have made to change this save for jumping in the sea themselves. The rest follows logically and inevitably from that point, Palestinian deaths are then both unavoidable and desired (by Hamas). Edited June 15, 2015 by Steely Dan

[Seastallion]

Whats your point. That the kids weren't really killed by Israel?

The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas, which furthermore actually sought Palestian casualties so the whole UN ICC circus could come about.

"The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas,"

Hamas would not have acted had it not been for the actions of Israel.

The kids would not have been killed if gunpowder had not been invented.

How far back do you want to go?

Israel killed the boys. Don't blame Hamas. Israel pulled the trigger, not Hamas.

Hamas have the avowed aim of getting rid of Israel, there are no actions the Israelis could have made to change this save for jumping in the sea themselves.

So kill kids? That seems to be what you're saying.

Hamas have renounced that very old bit in their charter. It's a very tired and incorrect old argument that you use, so stop with the drama queen stuff... Likud had/has a similar piece in it's charter..."from the river to the sea" it avowed to claim. You can bet your booties that high ranking Zionists in the Israeli government and lobby groups still cling to that "God-given" "right" and goal.

[Alwyn]

Here we go again, Israel being the eternal villain.... show me another country in the world that

endure relentless daily lethal attracts of thousand of rockets raining on civilian

cities and towns, tunnel's commando infiltrations aim to over power and kidnap hostages,

and I'll show you a country that must defend it self at any cost,...

Imagine that Israel get wiped out in some catastrophic war, all the world's head of states

will be saying Oh what a terrible thing it is.. what for desert than?

to quote Golda Meir :

We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon - no alternative....

Thousands of rockets daily?

Ive told you a million times not to exagerate.

Since Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 Hamas has fired +11,000 rockets at Israeli populations. whilst not thousands every day, it's still a ridiculous amount and they have never even been questioned about it by the UN. Israel responds and all of a sudden it's genocide and they're all Nazis. It's just not right really, is it? Could you imagine America sitting on it's hands if Mexico were firing that amount of rockets into texas, for example?

[Steely Dan]

Whats your point. That the kids weren't really killed by Israel?

The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas, which furthermore actually sought Palestian casualties so the whole UN ICC circus could come about.

"The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas,"

Hamas would not have acted had it not been for the actions of Israel.

The kids would not have been killed if gunpowder had not been invented.

How far back do you want to go?

Israel killed the boys. Don't blame Hamas. Israel pulled the trigger, not Hamas.

Hamas have the avowed aim of getting rid of Israel, there are no actions the Israelis could have made to change this save for jumping in the sea themselves.

So kill kids? That seems to be what you're saying.

Hamas have renounced that very old bit in their charter. It's a very tired and incorrect old argument that you use, so stop with the drama queen stuff... Likud had/has a similar piece in it's charter..."from the river to the sea" it avowed to claim. You can bet your booties that high ranking Zionists in the Israeli government and lobby groups still cling to that "God-given" "right" and goal.

Here is a page linking to the full 275 page report. But for those with short attention spans there is a list of descriptions for the pictures within. Just read the list and tell me again who thinks its okay to kill children.

https://tayaravaknin.wordpress.com/2015/06/14/a-list-of-pictures-from-the-israeli-report-on-gaza/

[Seastallion]

Here we go again, Israel being the eternal villain.... show me another country in the world that

endure relentless daily lethal attracts of thousand of rockets raining on civilian

cities and towns, tunnel's commando infiltrations aim to over power and kidnap hostages,

and I'll show you a country that must defend it self at any cost,...

Imagine that Israel get wiped out in some catastrophic war, all the world's head of states

will be saying Oh what a terrible thing it is.. what for desert than?

to quote Golda Meir :

We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon - no alternative....

Thousands of rockets daily?

Ive told you a million times not to exagerate.

Since Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 Hamas has fired +11,000 rockets at Israeli populations. whilst not thousands every day, it's still a ridiculous amount and they have never even been questioned about it by the UN. Israel responds and all of a sudden it's genocide and they're all Nazis. It's just not right really, is it? Could you imagine America sitting on it's hands if Mexico were firing that amount of rockets into texas, for example?

It's all well and good to cite the number of rockets. But in the real world, we look at the effects. 11 000 rockets fired and maybe 20 of them resulted in casualties...of what, 40-50, tops? In response, Israel kills over 5000 civilians in that time frame.

This is what gets on the goat of the anti-Zionists. It's not Israel-hate, it's not antisemitism, it's outrage at a hugely disproportionate response....every time.

On top of that, when you consider that the militant Palestinians are mainly freedom fighters reacting to occupation....the Israeli response is monstrous.

Yes, there are bound to be antisemite Palestinians. I bet my bottom dollar that there would be a lot less if Israel did not encroach, and did not treat the Palestinians with such ferocity.

[Seastallion]

Whats your point. That the kids weren't really killed by Israel?

The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas, which furthermore actually sought Palestian casualties so the whole UN ICC circus could come about.

"The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas,"

Hamas would not have acted had it not been for the actions of Israel.

The kids would not have been killed if gunpowder had not been invented.

How far back do you want to go?

Israel killed the boys. Don't blame Hamas. Israel pulled the trigger, not Hamas.

Hamas have the avowed aim of getting rid of Israel, there are no actions the Israelis could have made to change this save for jumping in the sea themselves.

So kill kids? That seems to be what you're saying.

Hamas have renounced that very old bit in their charter. It's a very tired and incorrect old argument that you use, so stop with the drama queen stuff... Likud had/has a similar piece in it's charter..."from the river to the sea" it avowed to claim. You can bet your booties that high ranking Zionists in the Israeli government and lobby groups still cling to that "God-given" "right" and goal.

Here is a page linking to the full 275 page report. But for those with short attention spans there is a list of descriptions for the pictures within. Just read the list and tell me again who thinks its okay to kill children.

https://tayaravaknin.wordpress.com/2015/06/14/a-list-of-pictures-from-the-israeli-report-on-gaza/

You're trying very hard to avoid admitting that Israel killed those kids. You have gone so far as to say Hamas killed them. You went further, to imply that Israel killing them was justified.

I simply can not discuss this matter with you any more. It's too ludicrous and disgusting to have dialogue with someone who will grasp at straws to shift the blame away from the killers of children.

[sdanielmcev]

Probably a good idea for Israel gto pre-empt with a campaign for sympathy, as the UN has not been too sympathetic to their cause or plight. This will be tried in the court of public opinion as well.

BTW, the phrase, 'innocent until proven guilty' pertains to retribution of a crime, not the facts of a case. You always prove innocence, as well as guilt. Unless you're an idiot.

[RustBucket]

Judging by the vast volume of anti-semitic post on this thread. Just tells me that most Thai expats are stupid.

[Linky]

The kids would not have been killed if it were not for the actions of Hamas, which furthermore actually sought Palestian casualties so the whole UN ICC circus could come about.

Wow, i've heard everything now.

Thats like saying if the Jews weren't in Germany there would not have been a holocaust, so its their own fault.

There are just no depths some of you will stoop. Innocent kids murdered by Israel and its always someone elses fault.

The Jews in Germany were not busy lobbing rockets at or trying to kill the Germans. Nor might I add did they use their own children as human shields or cannon fodder in order to make the Germans look bad.

Next.

What mattered was the Germans considered they had enough reason to do it. Much like you saying It was perfectly reasonable for Israel to murder children, its always someone elses fault.


Next

Another bleeding heart who has received his entire middle east education via the liberal western mainstream media.

You opinion counts for nowt.... That is so obvious.

Hamas use schools, hospitals, the elderly and children as sheilds to fire their rockets from to feed the western propaganda machine.

The real genocide will happen to the Isrealis if they were to lay down their arms and ask for peace.

They would be murdered.

So what has that to do with this topic of kids being murdered?

[Jingthing]

I think I can find some commonalities with the anti Israel POV here.

Right now in Gaza there is re-arming going on and new aggressive tunnels are being built, at the cost of Gaza children's lives.

That is happening and will continue to happen so the NEXT armed conflict between Gaza and Israel is inevitable.

Here is the commonality.

I certainly hope that the IDF learns from previous mistakes and manages to make fewer mistakes in the next war ... mistakes being any kind of avoidable casualties of innocents.

It's not realistic to expect no mistakes in war and it's not realistic to expect no casualties of non-combatants, especially the way they operate in Gaza.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Jingthing

[chuckd]

I would personally like to see Israel fight fire with fire.

When Hamas begins yet again firing more of those "to whom it may concern" types of rockets, the IDF would reciprocate with a one for one firing of the same type of rocket.

I wonder how Gaza would feel with some 10,000 to 20,000 rockets coming at them.

What say you Israel haters? Would that seem fairer and make everything all right?

[Jingthing]

A bit of satire about the enemy Israel faces in Gaza, previously and in future:

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid591867023001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAiWK0n2E~,K4CQP-D8fMxFj9_qdpjQ-OlGBFzMO-sW&bctid=4297353104001

[Thorgal]

For artillery shells only : ( exclusive drone shells, F-16 bombs, tank shells, battle ship shells, infantry shells, guided missiles, etc...)

Quote from link :

The most common ammunition for IDF artillery with the Doher howitzer is the 155mm high-explosive artillery shell, normally the M107.4.

Filled with high-explosive TNT, the M107 shell weighs more than 40kg. When it explodes it projects approximately almost 2,000 jagged metal fragments.

They, and the blunt blast force from the shell itself, have high chances of killing people up to 150m away, and can injure people even 300 metres away from the point of detonation.

Furthermore, they are not that accurate. The shell is unguidable. IDF officials have said the error radius for each individual 155mm shell is usually 25 metres...

Some 19.000 pieces have been fired into Gaza (tiny strip of land outside 3km green line boundaries) in the 50 days of operation Protective Edge.

Some 760 tons have been dropped by artillery shells only into urban area's.

IDF Military experts comment :

“ The use of a statistical weapon is like a game of Russian roulette. Those who use artillery weapons in Gaza cannot honestly say that they are doing all they can to avoid harming innocent civilians.”

Idan Barir, former IDF soldier in the Artillery Corps, 8 August 2014.

As an artillery officer I know that even now—with advanced technologies artillery fire is unpredictable. As an artillery forward observer, I always looked up to the sky, praying my shells hit the targets and not land on my head. Artillery shells have a strange habit of going astray.”

Dr Ahron Bregman, former IDF Major, 8 August 2014.52

When we ask them [iDF soldiers] ‘if it’s one specific house, why three shells?’they say ‘that was in order to make sure that we actually hit’. Because [artillery] is not an accurate weapon, the chances are that you’re not going to hitif you’re going to use only one shell. The problem is that if you shoot three [shells], all three of them are going to fall in the area of Gaza, and the chances are that a lot of people will get hurt.”

IDF artillery expert, interview with AOAV, November 2014

https://aoav.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/AOAV-Under-Fire-Israels-artillery-policies-scrutinised.pdf

Why still pretending to minimise civilian casualties and respecting international laws with clear criminality in terms of intentionality and proportionality?

Edited June 15, 2015 by Thorgal

[Jingthing]

Thorgal ... can you please stop pasting in HUGE blocks of text that you have not written?

You do that all the time and it has become annoying.

Instead, the way to do it is to include a SNIPPET and then a link.

[Steely Dan]

Israel did more to protect civilians than any NATO members do. Cue the source police who believe everything that comes out of the UNHRC, who have over half their statements condemning Israel more than the rest of the world combined.

http://www.jspacenews.com/report-idf-took-precautions-gaza-conflict-nato-member-armies/

[boomerangutang]

Israel was defending its territory and its people. War is messy, at the least. If some Gazans toss bombs/missiles over the wall, then those tossers are endangering all Gazans. They know the parameters of the dangerous game they're playing. All Gazan parents and teachers who feed in to the ideas that Israel is the devil and/or the enemy, are also contributing to Gazans getting injured and killed, and building pulverized. The onus is on the Gazans. It's also on the authorities there (Hamas?) to police their territory to try and make sure the idiots tossing bombs are shut down.

I might have a peace-loving family, but if one of my sons is shooting neighbors out of the 3rd story window of my house, then that shooter is endangering not only the neighbors, but also his own family in the house.

I have a question for you mate.

Who did they call the devil before the Israelis arrived?

That's a weird question. For starters, I didn't call anyone 'the devil.' I'm not even religious, so I don't believe in silliness like 'devils.' If the Gazans and Israelis could become more realistic and less religionists, half their problems would dissipate.

In the bigger picture: strife and military confrontation has been going on in that corridor between Africa and Eurasia for thousands of years - even before Abraham and the Assyrians and Moses. Like many places worldwide, territorial lines switch like lines in the sand blown by desert winds. Now is now, and Gazans have to accept it, however grudgingly. If Israelis responded like their long-dead ancestors and/or the Pharoes did to such issues, they'd just roll in and all Gazans would either be killed, forced to flee, or forced in to slavery. That's how such issues were settled in ancient times. If Israel adhered to ancient methods, it would own Sinai, Syria, Lebanon and maybe even Jordan to boot. But we're in the 21st century, and Israel is self-restrained and discussing things for the most part. granted, sometimes the IDF gets pissed off by having bombs tossed over the wall toward its territory, so it sends missiles over the wall the other way. One side is stronger than the other. The weaker side has to find a way to accept it. If not, then its people and buildings will continue to get smashed periodically.

Edited June 16, 2015 by boomerangutang

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas have the avowed aim of getting rid of Israel, there are no actions the Israelis could have made to change this save for jumping in the sea themselves.

So kill kids? That seems to be what you're saying.

Hamas have renounced that very old bit in their charter.

That is a lie and one you have been informed about numerous times. Hamas have NEVER renounced their charter. A few individual members have suggested that it is no longer relevant, because of political considerations.

No Hamas representative has ever renounced the charter; Hamas leaders not only reiterate the charter's precepts calling for an Islamic caliphate in all of Israel, but view it as the first step to worldwide Islamic rule.

Some recent examples evidencing how Hamas adheres to its charter:

1. "Palestinians mark 'Naqba Day' this year with great hope of bringing to an end the Zionist project in Palestine." (Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, at a May 15, 2011 speech marking Israel's creation)

2. "Our aim is to establish a free and completely sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, whose capital is Jerusalem, without any settlers and without giving up a single inch of land and without giving up on right of return...Our common enemy is Israel. Israel must be fought both with force and through diplomacy." (Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal, Hamas-Fatah reconciliation agreement signing in Cairo, May 4, 2011)

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=20&x_article=1618

Edited June 16, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Thorgal]

OP is not about the Hamas charter.

It's about a 242 pages internal propaganda report that Israeli government deliberately used to influence the mass media for their war crimes committed during Operation Protective Edge, a preemptive war.

Not even one word has been written about the Operation Brothers' Keeper when IDF deployed 10 army devisions in occupied Palestinian Territory leading to 800 arrests and massive killing of non-combating civilians.

IDF air force used 400 tons of explosives on the first 2 days of Operation Protective Edge who tragically killed 130 civilians.

Israel deployed for the whole 50 days operation 800.000 troops, 4000 tanks and 262 F-16's.

IDF air force did 6.000 raids with precision bombing using 1ton bombs and 2ton bunker buster bombs on dense populated civilian area's.

Again, the Israeli report misses any claim of justification of the war crimes committed to civilian population. Warfare with such arsenal puts away any suggestion of intentionality and proportionality of what Israeli government claims in the report.

- It has been proven that IDF forces used the Dahiya doctrine since the beginning of the conflict.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/25285-the-dahiya-doctrine-state-terrorism-and-a-philosophy-of-war-crime#

- It has been proven that IDF forces used the Hannibal Directive protocol in Rafah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israels-hannibal-directive-kills-over-100-rafah-1085254645

- It has been proven that IDF used carpet bombing on dense populated area's like Shuja'iyya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shuja'iyya

- It has been proven that IDF bombed multiple UN shelters, multiple UN school and a center for disabled persons

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel

Means more than 20% of all Palestinian civilian casualties have been killed without receiving a warning (dropped leaflets and telephone calls) to evacuate the targeted area from the IDF.

Consider the remaining other 1.600 other civilian casualties as low compared to the huge amount of IDF shells and explosives deployed. Even so they're falsely blamed to apply the Hamas human shield doctrine...

Hamas instead replied the early hostilities with firing 3.500 rockets to Israel. Which 500 have been intercepted with Iron Dome defense system. And they've used RPG's and light weaponry during the ground invasion.

Do you really think that the ICC will use the 1988 Hamas charter to fill the gap of proportionality and by this advocate that Israel did everything to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties ?

Edited June 16, 2015 by Thorgal

[Seastallion]

Hamas have the avowed aim of getting rid of Israel, there are no actions the Israelis could have made to change this save for jumping in the sea themselves.

So kill kids? That seems to be what you're saying.

Hamas have renounced that very old bit in their charter.

That is a lie and one you have been informed about numerous times. Hamas have NEVER renounced their charter. A few individual members have suggested that it is no longer relevant, because of political considerations.

No Hamas representative has ever renounced the charter; Hamas leaders not only reiterate the charter's precepts calling for an Islamic caliphate in all of Israel, but view it as the first step to worldwide Islamic rule.

Some recent examples evidencing how Hamas adheres to its charter:

1. "Palestinians mark 'Naqba Day' this year with great hope of bringing to an end the Zionist project in Palestine." (Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, at a May 15, 2011 speech marking Israel's creation)

2. "Our aim is to establish a free and completely sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, whose capital is Jerusalem, without any settlers and without giving up a single inch of land and without giving up on right of return...Our common enemy is Israel. Israel must be fought both with force and through diplomacy." (Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal, Hamas-Fatah reconciliation agreement signing in Cairo, May 4, 2011)

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=20&x_article=1618

"In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."^[7] Hamas have moved away from its charter since it decided to go for political office." That is essentially a renouncement.

" Sir Jeremy Greenstock however argued that Hamas has not adopted its charter as part of its political program since it won the Palestinian legislative election, 2006.^[9] Instead it has moved to a more secular stance.^[8]"

" In 2008, the Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, stated that Hamas would agree to accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, and to offer a long-term truce with Israel.^[10]"

Take up your argument with Sir Jeremy. I have an opinion on who is more credible between the two of you.

Both quotes you cite are perfectly understandable and do not in any way indicate a "river to the sea" objective that you think they have (unlike Likud).

'An end to the Zionist project in Palestine" is quite right; stop the Zionists in their "river to the sea" project! The other one, also, actually implies a state of Israel, but get them out of the occupied zones.

BTW...I resent being called a liar. I find it offensive. A lie is a deliberate intent to deceive and is against forum rules. I have not done that. If you have that allegation, make it officially. Not that I am mistaken, but being mistaken in the information you have is not posting a lie.

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas instead replied the early hostilities with firing 3.500 rockets to Israel.

Hamas was shooting rockets all along and no country on earth would put up with it. There is no reason that Israel should either. Hamas can blame itself for Israel's response and the Palestinian people that purposely elected a Islamic terrorist group to represent them.

[Thorgal]

Hamas instead replied the early hostilities with firing 3.500 rockets to Israel.

Hamas was shooting rockets all along and no country on earth would put up with it. There is no reason that Israel should either. Hamas can blame itself for Israel's response and the Palestinian people that purposely elected a Islamic terrorist group to represent them.

Pure statistical observation:

Hamas started 14 years shooting 12.000 rockets to Israel from 2001 till now. Which I condemn as a war crime too.

Total tragic casualities in the history of unlawful rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel : 44.

Civilians : 30

Soldiers : 14

Which give us a kill rate of 0,25% or in other words, 400 rockets are required for each tragic civilian fatality.

Israel has a total population of 9.000.000 citizens.

The report from OP mentions that Hamas has to be stopped from committing genocide. Which where I raise myself some questions with the following :

According to this actual trend this slow genocide would require 3.600.000.000 rockets or 4.199.999 years...assuming that Israel’s Israeli population does not increase.

It makes more sense, then, to suppose that there are political rationales for the firing of rockets and mortars. For both camps !

This brings us also to a similar comparable equivalence that more or less 36 Israeli fatalities are recorded tragically yearly on domestic traffic accidents and are reported completely different.

http://www.livescience.com/43462-countries-crash-death-rates.html

Edited June 16, 2015 by Thorgal

[Thorgal]

Israel did more to protect civilians than any NATO members do. Cue the source police who believe everything that comes out of the UNHRC, who have over half their statements condemning Israel more than the rest of the world combined.

http://www.jspacenews.com/report-idf-took-precautions-gaza-conflict-nato-member-armies/

Your source is from Tazpit News Agency.

An Israeli nationalist right winged media source who defends mainly the Israeli settler project, IDF and the greater role of Israel in the world.

Why providing a biased nationalist right winged source in an international news thread to make your point ?

[bbbcorp]

Israel did more to protect civilians than any NATO members do. Cue the source police who believe everything that comes out of the UNHRC, who have over half their statements condemning Israel more than the rest of the world combined.

http://www.jspacenews.com/report-idf-took-precautions-gaza-conflict-nato-member-armies/

Your source is from Tazpit News Agency.

An Israeli nationalist right winged media source who defends mainly the Israeli settler project, IDF and the greater role of Israel in the world.

Why providing a biased nationalist right winged source in an international news thread to make your point ?

Because if you re not with them you re against them...Bush style

Edited June 16, 2015 by bbbcorp

[MrMuddle]

I never believe a word Israel or it's supporters says.