Finding a local tax advisor for expats in Pattaya

[Skeety65]

Does anyone know a local tax advisor who specialises in tax for expats.

I'm looking for Someone who can give me reliable advice on the double tax treaty with the UK especially regarding pensions and capital gains tax plus paying tax on my UK company pension in Thailand. It's a very complicated subject and one that I need expert advice on.

Many Thanks

[mikebell]

I second your request Skeety. I have written to numerous MPs asking them to justify the frozen State pension. I have sought to transfer some of my marriage tax allowance to my non-working Thai wife only to be told that the system is not geared up for ex-pats yet! UK VERIFY recommend phoning HRMC which I can't do as I am hard of hearing. A specialist in this field could save me over 100 UKP pa in tax.

[KittenKong]

A specialist in this field could save me over 100 UKP pa in tax.

But would probably charge much more than that for his advice. You may be better off just paying the tax.

[Soutpeel]

As a construction engineer I have worked outside the UK for 33 years until I retired, aged 68, at the end of 2010. During this time I worked for five different companies, two of which were British, and for most of the time my salary was paid into my bank in the UK.

Throughout the time I was working abroad I paid voluntary class 3 contributions to ensure I had a full state pension. When I retired I continued to live in Thailand where I had worked since 1999.

My state pension is frozen and the British government continues to tax me on my two private pensions, stating that I will always be liable to UK tax on unearned income from UK sources such as pensions.

Is there anything I can do to alleviate any of these financial burdens?

Howard Bilton, chairman of The Sovereign Group (www.sovereigngroup.com)

Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs are correct that pension income which has a UK source is taxable in the UK even if it is paid to non-UK residents.

This basic rule can be overridden by a suitable provision in a double taxation agreement (DTA). Although the UK has ratified a treaty with Thailand, it does not cover pension income. Therefore the DTA is of no help.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/10878348/Ask-the-Experts-How-do-I-get-the-taxmans-hands-off-my-pensions.html

[mikebell]

A specialist in this field could save me over 100 UKP pa in tax.

But would probably charge much more than that for his advice. You may be better off just paying the tax.

Pa is abbreviation for per annum which is Latin for every year. If I only live 10 more years that's over 1000 pounds that I have deprived the discriminatory & unfair UK Government out of. I resent paying tax on a frozen pension whilst paying for my own medical/transport/policing/garbage collection/ housing issues - most of which I could claim if I am eventually starved back to UK.

[KittenKong]

Pa is abbreviation for per annum which is Latin for every year. If I only live 10 more years that's over 1000 pounds that I have deprived the discriminatory & unfair UK Government out of. I resent paying tax on a frozen pension whilst paying for my own medical/transport/policing/garbage collection/ housing issues - most of which I could claim if I am eventually starved back to UK.

That's your decision to make. I prefer just to keep the bottom line as much in my favour as possible and as a non-resident I personally think that the UK government is quite generous in not taxing me on my UK deposit interest at all, nor taxing me on UK dividends or UK capital gains. Nor do they try to tax me on my worldwide income which some other governments like to do to their citizens.

I advise myself which seems to get me better service and more accurate information than I would get from any so-called professional here.

[Skeety65]

This is not entirely true that you can't use the double tax treaty with Thailand regarding pensions. Pls see the link below which states otherwise and that's from the HRMC website.

The only negative thing I've read is if the tax rates in the 2 countries are different, youll pay the higher rate of tax. Also The tax year may start on different days in different countries. Not sure how this works exactly but there must be away around it as I've just contacted my UK company pension scheme who advised me that they would pay my pension in Thai baht directly into my Thai bank account without UK tax being deducted providing I complete the double tax treaty form and get it processed and stamped by the tax authorities in Thailand who will then send it to HRMC in the UK. Once they receive this they will change your tax code to NT (no tax). This was also confirmed to me by the Non UK residents centre in the UK.

Without doing some more research to clarify this fully it's sounds like providing u get this form processed in Thailand and get it to HRMC in the Uk you should only pay tax once and that would be in Thailand which would of course be more favourable.

One point to add. You make not have to do any of this if the UK GOVERNMENT doesn't scrap the £10,000 tax allowance for non UK residents which is still under consultation so watch this space. If they do then I for one will be getting my pension taxed in Thailand.

Would be good to hear from anyone retired already who's receiving a company pension paid into a Thai bank account using the double tax treaty to confirm the above.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad/taxed-twice

Cheers

[RabC]

Just a question, under the new legislation why not just move your pension offshore and have it paid into an offshore bank account. My pension fund has been moved from the UK to Isle of Man and Gibraltar and all income when I decide to claim will be to Isle of Man account, best way I could think of thanking the UK Government and People for being such a great bunch.

[topt]

This is not entirely true that you can't use the double tax treaty with Thailand regarding pensions. Pls see the link below which states otherwise and that's from the HRMC website.

The only negative thing I've read is if the tax rates in the 2 countries are different, youll pay the higher rate of tax. Also The tax year may start on different days in different countries. Not sure how this works exactly but there must be away around it as I've just contacted my UK company pension scheme who advised me that they would pay my pension in Thai baht directly into my Thai bank account without UK tax being deducted providing I complete the double tax treaty form and get it processed and stamped by the tax authorities in Thailand who will then send it to HRMC in the UK. Once they receive this they will change your tax code to NT (no tax). This was also confirmed to me by the Non UK residents centre in the UK.

Without doing some more research to clarify this fully it's sounds like providing u get this form processed in Thailand and get it to HRMC in the Uk you should only pay tax once and that would be in Thailand which would of course be more favourable.

One point to add. You make not have to do any of this if the UK GOVERNMENT doesn't scrap the £10,000 tax allowance for non UK residents which is still under consultation so watch this space. If they do then I for one will be getting my pension taxed in Thailand.

Would be good to hear from anyone retired already who's receiving a company pension paid into a Thai bank account using the double tax treaty to confirm the above.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad/taxed-twice

Cheers

Are you sure about that? Following your link and then linking to here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/356800/Digest_of_Double_Taxation_Treaties.pdf

I read this - (point 4)

THAILAND

Note 1

SI1981 No1546

1. Relief may be restricted if whole amount of income is

not remitted to Thailand.

2. 10% or full relief in certain circumstances.

3. 15% (ST) for patent, certain film, radio and TV royalties.

4. Treaty does not include an article dealing with

Non-Government pensions. Also, no relief for

State Pension or ‘trivial commutation lump sum’.

Sorry the copy would not format so that is just extracted from the Thailand section.

Unless you are on a "government pension" (not same as State Pension) where full relief is offered then it looks like no relief for pensions as was stated earlier in the extract copied by Soutpeel.

[Skeety65]

Well that's what my company advised me and they were backed up by the non uk residents centre in the UK. I work for Briiish airways who have ex employees living all over the world and they told me they pay many pensioners their income direct into their accounts of the countries where they reside . The money isn't taxed in the UK providing that have a double tax treaty with the country of residence and have completed all the paperwork.

I think the next step will be to call the revenue tax office in Bangkok claify these rules to make sure that the information ive been given is correct .....that's going be interesting as trying to speak to a Thai on such a complicated subject won't be easy but will give it a go.

If the £10K tax allowance is scrapped for us non residents we'll be paying 20% tax on all our pensions earned in the UK where's before it would've been only on anything over £10k. Of course this is still under consultation but from what I'm hearing its someone they are really trying to change.

As for transffering your pension overseas I've been warned not to do this by my financial advisor in the Uk as he says there's many hidden charges including a yearly admin one of around a £1000 plus your pension wouldn't be protected where's in the UK if would. Food for thought but seems to me you'd just be better off paying the tax in the UK as at least youll know your pension fund is protected.

Really need to find a local tax expert who can give us accurate information.

Does anyone know of any legal firms in Pattaya that offer tax advice for us expats

Cheers

[topt]

Well that's what my company advised me and they were backed up by the non uk residents centre in the UK. I work for Briiish airways who have ex employees living all over the world and they told me they pay many pensioners their income direct into their accounts of the countries where they reside . The money isn't taxed in the UK providing that have a double tax treaty with the country of residence and have completed all the paperwork.

I think the next step will be to call the revenue tax office in Bangkok claify these rules to make sure that the information ive been given is correct .....that's going be interesting as trying to speak to a Thai on such a complicated subject won't be easy but will give it a go.

If the £10K tax allowance is scrapped for us non residents we'll be paying 20% tax on all our pensions earned in the UK where's before it would've been only on anything over £10k. Of course this is still under consultation but from what I'm hearing its someone they are really trying to change.

As for transffering your pension overseas I've been warned not to do this by my financial advisor in the Uk as he says there's many hidden charges including a yearly admin one of around a £1000 plus your pension wouldn't be protected where's in the UK if would. Food for thought but seems to me you'd just be better off paying the tax in the UK as at least youll know your pension fund is protected.

Really need to find a local tax expert who can give us accurate information.

Does anyone know of any legal firms in Pattaya that offer tax advice for us expats

Cheers

If your company is telling you that than I respectfully suggest your first step would be to the non uk residents centre of HMRC and refer them to their own documents and ask them to explain............The document referenced could well have changed or be in error but querying it now may save a fortune later on. Personally I would also want to know in advance what exact paperwork needs to be done.

I imagine many would be interested to hear what response you get back.

Edit - not disputing it is possible in some countries but are any of those ex employees being paid in Thailand?

Edited June 18, 2015 by topt

[Skeety65]

The non uk resident centre told me to download the dual tax treaty form (indivdual ) from the HMRC website. Complete the form and take it to the revenue tax office in Bangkok who will process it and either give it back to you or send it direct to HMRC.

Once it's received they will just process the form and change your tax code to NT (no tax)

I'm guessing then you'd have to file a Thai tax return every year but I'll find out exactly when I get back to Thailand this weekend as I'll be contacting then to claify all the points discussed here.

I've download the dual treaty form but not at time to look at it yet but I'm sure it's not as straight forward as it sounds. Once I've spoken to the Thai authorises I'll get back in touch with the Non UK resident centre to double check their information.

I understand what you're saying though as anything to do with tax especially for expats can be very complicated and never straightforward

I'll keep you posted once have more answers

Cheers

[Soutpeel]

This is not entirely true that you can't use the double tax treaty with Thailand regarding pensions. Pls see the link below which states otherwise and that's from the HRMC website.

The only negative thing I've read is if the tax rates in the 2 countries are different, youll pay the higher rate of tax. Also The tax year may start on different days in different countries. Not sure how this works exactly but there must be away around it as I've just contacted my UK company pension scheme who advised me that they would pay my pension in Thai baht directly into my Thai bank account without UK tax being deducted providing I complete the double tax treaty form and get it processed and stamped by the tax authorities in Thailand who will then send it to HRMC in the UK. Once they receive this they will change your tax code to NT (no tax). This was also confirmed to me by the Non UK residents centre in the UK.

Without doing some more research to clarify this fully it's sounds like providing u get this form processed in Thailand and get it to HRMC in the Uk you should only pay tax once and that would be in Thailand which would of course be more favourable.

One point to add. You make not have to do any of this if the UK GOVERNMENT doesn't scrap the £10,000 tax allowance for non UK residents which is still under consultation so watch this space. If they do then I for one will be getting my pension taxed in Thailand.

Would be good to hear from anyone retired already who's receiving a company pension paid into a Thai bank account using the double tax treaty to confirm the above.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad/taxed-twice

Cheers

The fact is, even though after 180 pa in Thailand, one is technically resident for tax purposes, the Thai government doesn't push, declaring or even taxing oversea's pensions on foreigners, Ergo if they are not taxing you, you can hardly invoke a double taxation agreement, cos they are not taxing you anyway, therefore you are only paying tax once...in the UK

Somehow think the Thai tax authorities will send you on your way when you ask to be registered as a Thai tax payer, as your not working here, never worked here and your pension is already being taxed

further if they did tax you in Thailand, once you get beyond USD 125k a year the tax rate is 35% with very few deductibles and upto the 125k p.a. gross there are sliding scale rates of tax

so in fact you may end up paying more in Thailand than you would in the UK on the same money

[KittenKong]

The fact is, even though after 180 pa in Thailand, one is technically resident for tax purposes, the Thai government doesn't push, declaring or even taxing oversea's pensions on foreigners, Ergo if they are not taxing you, you can hardly invoke a double taxation agreement, cos they are not taxing you anyway, therefore you are only paying tax once...in the UK

Somehow think the Thai tax authorities will send you on your way when you ask to be registered as a Thai tax payer, as your not working here, never worked here and your pension is already being taxed

Actually the Thai tax people will happily process your registration if you want them to. I am registered in order to reclaim withholding tax paid on bank deposits here. I dont need to declare anything else.

You are correct that in order to get any possible benefit from the DTA one would have to declare in one country and transmit the information to the tax authorities in the other country.

[Soutpeel]

Actually the Thai tax people will happily process your registration if you want them to. I am registered in order to reclaim withholding taxpaid on bank deposits here. I dont need to declare anything else.

In your case yes they would process your registration as it's tax paid on bank deposits whose source is Thailand, that's the difference, the source of the OP pension is the UK not Thailand.

so Thailand is following the same rational as the UK, your tax is paid at source and in your case the source is a Thai bank in Thailand...

[MaeJoMTB]

Just a question, under the new legislation why not just move your pension offshore and have it paid into an offshore bank account. My pension fund has been moved from the UK to Isle of Man and Gibraltar and all income when I decide to claim will be to Isle of Man account, best way I could think of thanking the UK Government and People for being such a great bunch.

Many of the pension companies in the IoM are crooks.

Better leaving stuff like that in the UK where you have a measure of protection. No protection at all in IoM.

Hope you didn't use Friends Provident International based in the IoM .........

Better to pay tax in the UK than lose everything in the IoM.

PS

You won't discover any losses until you try to take money out.

Cos they misreport your fund value.

Then they say sorry, ...........

Edited June 19, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[RabC]

Just a question, under the new legislation why not just move your pension offshore and have it paid into an offshore bank account. My pension fund has been moved from the UK to Isle of Man and Gibraltar and all income when I decide to claim will be to Isle of Man account, best way I could think of thanking the UK Government and People for being such a great bunch.

Many of the pension companies in the IoM are crooks.

Better leaving stuff like that in the UK where you have a measure of protection. No protection at all in IoM.

Hope you didn't use Friends Provident International based in the IoM .........

Better to pay tax in the UK than lose everything in the IoM.

PS

You won't discover any losses until you try to take money out.

Cos they misreport your fund value.

Then they say sorry, ...........

Genuine question and not flaming, do you have any Proof as to the lack of integrity of IoM investments?

[MaeJoMTB]

Just a question, under the new legislation why not just move your pension offshore and have it paid into an offshore bank account. My pension fund has been moved from the UK to Isle of Man and Gibraltar and all income when I decide to claim will be to Isle of Man account, best way I could think of thanking the UK Government and People for being such a great bunch.

Many of the pension companies in the IoM are crooks.

Better leaving stuff like that in the UK where you have a measure of protection. No protection at all in IoM.

Hope you didn't use Friends Provident International based in the IoM .........

Better to pay tax in the UK than lose everything in the IoM.

PS

You won't discover any losses until you try to take money out.

Cos they misreport your fund value.

Then they say sorry, ...........

Genuine question and not flaming, do you have any Proof as to the lack of integrity of IoM investments?

Off topic

They're in IoM to avoid UK regulation.

FPI are well known as dodgy (as are Hornbuckle Mitchell who are their 'administration' company).

Other ones, some are, some aren't.

So depends who you are with, although you are often paying double or triple fees, so your fund will always lose money.

The basic game appears to be to spread the responsibility between several companies in different countries, sp everyone can claim regulation is in another countries jurisdiction..

Edited June 19, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[Rimmer]

It's time to move this topic to the Home Country Forum in order to get the best advice.

[KittenKong]

Actually the Thai tax people will happily process your registration if you want them to. I am registered in order to reclaim withholding taxpaid on bank deposits here. I dont need to declare anything else.

In your case yes they would process your registration as it's tax paid on bank deposits whose source is Thailand, that's the difference, the source of the OP pension is the UK not Thailand.

so Thailand is following the same rational as the UK, your tax is paid at source and in your case the source is a Thai bank in Thailand...

I think that the tax office here will process it if you want them to. If not then just open a small TD here then register for tax to reclaim the withholding tax and, at the same time, declare your UK pension income. Then send all that to HMRC.