SC governor: Removing Confederate flag will defy race hatred

[Chicog]

You wrote, "I think one was probably enough..." Indicating your agreement with "Seems I remember about a fellow named Grant back in the 1860's and while Commanding the US Army at that time of the "Great War to End Slavery" had slaves up until the 13th Amendment was passed."

​Save me the rhetoric. You were in error, admit it and get on with your usual stuff.

I was pointing out that him referring to "my negro man" was bad enough, let alone whether he had more that he could call "his negroes". I indicated the object of my comment by emboldening it.

My sympathies for your inability to decipher the English language or to understand how forums work.

[lostoday]

You wrote, "I think one was probably enough..." Indicating your agreement with "Seems I remember about a fellow named Grant back in the 1860's and while Commanding the US Army at that time of the "Great War to End Slavery" had slaves up until the 13th Amendment was passed."

​Save me the rhetoric. You were in error, admit it and get on with your usual stuff.

I was pointing out that him referring to "my negro man" was bad enough, let alone whether he had more that he could call "his negroes". I indicated the object of my comment by emboldening it.

My sympathies for your inability to decipher the English language or to understand how forums work.

If you want to change quotes of another poster, up to you. I was referring to your comment, "I think one was probably enough." Flaming me does not cause you to be less in error.

[stevenl]

Is this another Manchurian candidate? Obama is desperate to disarm all citizens in America, he even congratulated the John Howard Government in Australia for doing just that as a direct result of the the Port Arthur massacre. Very similar circumstances in both cases with a white alleged crazed young man. Many on this forum are having their two bobs worth as they actually believe the trash dished up to them by the media. As in the Australian tragedy, I will let time be the judge when more people can report facts, figures and other detail.

Once Americans are disarmed and turning on one another, the military trained police force will step in and the rest will be history if you are still alive to witness it. I prefer to err on the side of caution rather than believe any politician, media outlet or PR association. Do you not think that if the real truth is continually contorted and if you are purposely starved from receiving the real fact you will tend to believe anything that is thrown up, human nature dictates so.

Let me see how long it takes to prove my point with the first posting condemning my synopsis without offering any credible fact supporting their argument.

Maybe first you can come up with some credible facts.

[ABCer]

I think SC Governess is wrong. She is a naive woman.

I'm afraid it isn't the symbolic piece of cloth that divides Americans.

[Publicus]

The American Civil War was fought over many different issues and slavery was one of them. Yet it is a far more complicated issue than the Potically Correct version of today seen in Hollywood movies and in leftist MSM which distorts everything. Someone who understood the issues and yet chose to lead the Confederate Army was Robert E Lee even though he was strongly opposed to slavery.

General Robert E Lee on slavery in 1856:

"There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race.."

http://www.civilwarh.../leepierce.html

President Dwight D. Eisenhower revealed on national television that one of the four great Americans whose pictures hung in his office was none other than Robert E. Lee.

Eisenhower on Lee,

" in my estimation, one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. . . . selfless almost to a fault . . . noble as a leader and as a man, and unsullied as I read the pages of our history. From deep conviction I simply say this: a nation of men of Lees caliber would be unconquerable in spirit and soul. Indeed, to the degree that present-day American youth will strive to emulate his rare qualities . . . we, in our own time of danger in a divided world, will be strengthened and our love of freedom sustained."

http://www.neh.gov/h...e-american-icon

I am not from the American South but I know the flag was flown there not because they supported slavery. In large part it was due to the very harsh occupation that followed the war in which the South suffered many injustices at the hands of the North . This was a policy Lincoln would have been opposed to had he lived. The South returned to the Union but bore a stronge grudge toward WHITE Northerners and the battle flag was an important symbol of that. It is flown by the kkk as well; but so is the American flag. This latest crusade against the flag is yet another example of racial politics and political correctness run amock. In a few years the left will be attacking the American flag as a "symbol of hate."

That Lee was the commander of the armies that fought to defend and preserve the plantation economy and its supporting superstructure of politics and government reveals Lee's lack of character, integrity, morality. Lee's disloyalty to his country of birth removed his citizenship and left him a man without a country for 100 years.

Indeed, when Lee passed his sheathed sword to General Grant at Appomattox Courthouse Virginia, Grant in turn handed Lee a Certificate of Pardon giving the traitor Lee his freedom based on good behavior, but Lee remained without the USA citizenship that had he relinquished upon joining the Confederate States of America.

Parole of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee and six of his staff officers, April 9, 1865. (National Archives, Records of the Adjutant General's Office, 1780's–1917, RG 94)

We the undersigned Prisoners of War belonging to the Army of Northern Virginia, having been this day surrendered by General Robert E. Lee, C.S.A, Commanding said Army to Lieut. Gen. U.S. Grant, Commanding Armies of the United States, do hereby give our solemn parole of honor, that we will not hereafter serve in the armies of the Confederate States in any military capacity whatever, against the United States of America or render aid to the enemies of the latter, until properly charged in such manner as shall be mutually approved by the respective authorities.

So Lee soon applied to Pres Andrew Johnson for a Certificate of Amnesty to be approved by the president. The Certificate however was placed in government storage at the State Department until dusted off in 1970 by some probing staff of the notorious Virginia segregationist Senator Harry F. Byrd Jr.

Lee was restored his citizenship in 1975 by Prez Ford who during his dubious time in the presidency pardoned Hanoi Jane Fonda, Tokyo Rose from WW2, Richard Nixon of Watergate criminal fame and anyone else who might want or need a pardon for free from the oops I've fallen down again Republican president (and hit my head...again).

So the right wingers who love the Confederate Battle Flag but disapprove of amnesty will need to account for their inherent philosophical and ideological contradictions.

http://burnpit.legion.org/2011/08/president-ford-restores-robert-e-lees-citizenship-after-100-years

Edited June 23, 2015 by Publicus

[Publicus]

The Virginia governor is taking on the Sons of Confederate Veterans here, as they call themselves. This is the group that in SC destroyed the career of a prior Republican governor there who tried to dump the Confederate Battle Flag from the State House and the Confederate flag itself in any form.

I'm still watching to see what the SC legislature actually does or does not do with the request of the Republican governor there to dump the frag.

Governor orders Confederate flag removed from Virginia state license plates

RICHMOND, Va. — Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe has ordered the Confederate flag removed from Virginia state license plates.

The flag is displayed on a specialty plate designed for the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

The governor’s announcement came in the wake of a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that the state of Texas was allowed to reject a license plate design that featured a Confederate battle flag and the removal of the flag from the South Carolina statehouse grounds following last week’s fatal shootings at am African-American church in Charleston.

http://wtvr.com/2015/06/23/confederate-flag-removed-virginia-license-plates/

The SC flag has not been removed. It cannot be legally removed until the state legislature acts, if it does indeed act favorably to the governor's request.

[Publicus]

It's South Carolina's Indiana religious freedom law moment as they look at the rapidly rolling giant rock thundering down toward them.

Dylann Storm Roof is the Prophet of Doom to the legacy of the Confederacy.

He's destroyed himself, the legacy that engulfed him and the frag he so adored.

The SC flag law will likely be thrown out but this is much bigger than any law or single social movement per se.

The times have seldom changed this suddenly, so profoundly, rapidly, enduringly.

Celebrate the lives of the nine.

[Chicog]

You wrote, "I think one was probably enough..." Indicating your agreement with "Seems I remember about a fellow named Grant back in the 1860's and while Commanding the US Army at that time of the "Great War to End Slavery" had slaves up until the 13th Amendment was passed."

​Save me the rhetoric. You were in error, admit it and get on with your usual stuff.

I was pointing out that him referring to "my negro man" was bad enough, let alone whether he had more that he could call "his negroes". I indicated the object of my comment by emboldening it.

My sympathies for your inability to decipher the English language or to understand how forums work.

If you want to change quotes of another poster, up to you. I was referring to your comment, "I think one was probably enough." Flaming me does not cause you to be less in error.

I actually have no idea what you are on about.

If you think I have changed someone else's quote and in the process changed its meaning, please feel free to report said post to the mods.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Chicog

[lostoday]

You wrote, "I think one was probably enough..." Indicating your agreement with "Seems I remember about a fellow named Grant back in the 1860's and while Commanding the US Army at that time of the "Great War to End Slavery" had slaves up until the 13th Amendment was passed."

​Save me the rhetoric. You were in error, admit it and get on with your usual stuff.

I was pointing out that him referring to "my negro man" was bad enough, let alone whether he had more that he could call "his negroes". I indicated the object of my comment by emboldening it.

My sympathies for your inability to decipher the English language or to understand how forums work.

If you want to change quotes of another poster, up to you. I was referring to your comment, "I think one was probably enough." Flaming me does not cause you to be less in error.

I actually have no idea what you are on about.

If you think I have changed someone else's quote and in the process changed its meaning, please feel free to report said post to the mods.

You made part of another posters text bold. That was the part I was not commenting on. You were in agreement with another poster saying that one slave was enough to indict U. S. Grant in the terrible institution of slavery while he commanded the Union Army during the Civil war and that was a false statement.

[Chicog]

You have a very fertile imagination.

[lostoday]

You have a very fertile imagination.

You wrote, "I think one was probably enough..." Indicating your agreement with "Seems I remember about a fellow named Grant back in the 1860's and while Commanding the US Army at that time of the "Great War to End Slavery" had slaves up until the 13th Amendment was passed."

No imagination. You were wrong.

[lostoday]

The only evidence that USG owned slaves is a document he signed in 1859 freeing one, William Jones.

http://home.nas.com/lopresti/ps.htm

Seeing you was in the Air Force I would have thought yo would be better educated.

I think one was probably enough....

“I Ulysses S. Grant…do hereby manumit, emancipate and set free from Slavery my Negro man William, sometimes called William Jones…forever.”

To refresh your memory here is the original post. Grant did not have any slaves during the Civil War.

[masquerade]

Is this another Manchurian candidate? Obama is desperate to disarm all citizens in America, he even congratulated the John Howard Government in Australia for doing just that as a direct result of the the Port Arthur massacre. Very similar circumstances in both cases with a white alleged crazed young man. Many on this forum are having their two bobs worth as they actually believe the trash dished up to them by the media. As in the Australian tragedy, I will let time be the judge when more people can report facts, figures and other detail.

Once Americans are disarmed and turning on one another, the military trained police force will step in and the rest will be history if you are still alive to witness it. I prefer to err on the side of caution rather than believe any politician, media outlet or PR association. Do you not think that if the real truth is continually contorted and if you are purposely starved from receiving the real fact you will tend to believe anything that is thrown up, human nature dictates so.

Let me see how long it takes to prove my point with the first posting condemning my synopsis without offering any credible fact supporting their argument.

Maybe first you can come up with some credible facts.

Bingo, it took all of 28 minutes, and he even has a mate who liked him.There you have it ladies and gentlemen, some people are so gullible. How can you even begin to counter a comment such as that it would be like trying to have a intelligent conversation with a Thai. it is just not going o happen.

[stevenl]

Is this another Manchurian candidate? Obama is desperate to disarm all citizens in America, he even congratulated the John Howard Government in Australia for doing just that as a direct result of the the Port Arthur massacre. Very similar circumstances in both cases with a white alleged crazed young man. Many on this forum are having their two bobs worth as they actually believe the trash dished up to them by the media. As in the Australian tragedy, I will let time be the judge when more people can report facts, figures and other detail.

Once Americans are disarmed and turning on one another, the military trained police force will step in and the rest will be history if you are still alive to witness it. I prefer to err on the side of caution rather than believe any politician, media outlet or PR association. Do you not think that if the real truth is continually contorted and if you are purposely starved from receiving the real fact you will tend to believe anything that is thrown up, human nature dictates so.

Let me see how long it takes to prove my point with the first posting condemning my synopsis without offering any credible fact supporting their argument.

Maybe first you can come up with some credible facts.

Bingo, it took all of 28 minutes, and he even has a mate who liked him.There you have it ladies and gentlemen, some people are so gullible. How can you even begin to counter a comment such as that it would be like trying to have a intelligent conversation with a Thai. it is just not going o happen.

Still waiting for your facts, the credible facts you so desperately want from others but can't produce yourself.

10 minutes only this time, there you have a fact.

Edited June 24, 2015 by stevenl

[Chicog]

The only evidence that USG owned slaves is a document he signed in 1859 freeing one, William Jones.

http://home.nas.com/lopresti/ps.htm

Seeing you was in the Air Force I would have thought yo would be better educated.

I think one was probably enough....

“I Ulysses S. Grant…do hereby manumit, emancipate and set free from Slavery my Negro man William, sometimes called William Jones…forever.”

To refresh your memory here is the original post. Grant did not have any slaves during the Civil War.

Thank you for proving my point.

Perhaps you could continue your argument on your own.

[lostoday]

. I think one was probably enough....

“I Ulysses S. Grant…do hereby manumit, emancipate and set free from Slavery my Negro man William, sometimes called William Jones…forever.”

To refresh your memory here is the original post. Grant did not have any slaves during the Civil War.

Thank you for proving my point.

Perhaps you could continue your argument on your own.

You're point was that the singular of slave was just as damning as the plural slaves in pointing out Grant was a slave holder during the Civil war. He was not. You wrong.

If that is not what you meant (singular as bad as plural) you only had to say so instead of bickering for all these posts. If it was what you meant then admission of error would have sufficed.

Edited June 24, 2015 by lostoday

[sanuk711]

So if they ban all the sales of the confederate flag..... the only place you will be able to get it will be the black market.

Oh the irony..........................

[lostoday]

So if they ban all the sales of the confederate flag..... the only place you will be able to get it will be the black market.

Oh the irony..........................

Or you could take a photo of one at any Federal historical museum as they are a large part of American history.

[chuckd]

For information purposes only:

Forum netiquette:

2. Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording. Such posts will be deleted and the user warned.

[lostoday]

For information purposes only:

Forum netiquette:

2. Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording. Such posts will be deleted and the user warned.

If my memory is correct the catch 22 is changing the posters meaning. And of course that is not up to us to judge.

[Chicog]

You're point was that the singular of slave was just as damning as the plural slaves in pointing out Grant was a slave holder during the Civil war. He was not. You wrong.

If that is not what you meant (singular as bad as plural) you only had to say so instead of bickering for all these posts. If it was what you meant then admission of error would have sufficed.

My point was simply that it is as bad that someone could refer to a single human being as "my negro" as it is refer to dozens as "my negroes". I really didn't think it wasn't obvious, and no-one else seems to have jumped all over it like you did.

I haven't been bickering, as I have had no idea what all your kerfuffle is over.

Hopefully you can now understand the context of my remark. If not, then really you need to find some like-minded fellows who share your zeal for the, er, whatever it is.

[lostoday]

You're point was that the singular of slave was just as damning as the plural slaves in pointing out Grant was a slave holder during the Civil war. He was not. You wrong.

If that is not what you meant (singular as bad as plural) you only had to say so instead of bickering for all these posts. If it was what you meant then admission of error would have sufficed.

My point was simply that it is as bad that someone could refer to a single human being as "my negro" as it is refer to dozens as "my negroes". I really didn't think it wasn't obvious, and no-one else seems to have jumped all over it like you did.

I haven't been bickering, as I have had no idea what all your kerfuffle is over.

Hopefully you can now understand the context of my remark. If not, then really you need to find some like-minded fellows who share your zeal for the, er, whatever it is.

I do and I did. Having slaves was not bad in 1859. A number of other Presidents had slaves and were not considered bad (Washington, Jefferson and 10 more; 12 Presidents total. What would have made it bad, was owing them during the Civil war while fighting to free them. So my post. If your post was not about Grant and just happened to respond to a post about Grant then I can see your point.

However, I think you feel that anyone owning slaves anytime was bad. I could be wrong.

Edited June 24, 2015 by lostoday

[Chicog]

However, I think you feel that anyone owning slaves anytime was bad. I could be wrong.

[lostoday]

However, I think you feel that anyone owning slaves anytime was bad. I could be wrong.

GEORGE WASHINGTON (between 250-350 slaves)

- THOMAS JEFFERSON (about 200)

- JAMES MADISON (more than 100)

- JAMES MONROE (about 75)

- ANDREW JACKSON (fewer than 200)

- Martin Van Buren (one)

- William Henry Harrison (eleven)

- JOHN TYLER (about 70)

- JAMES POLK (about 25)

- ZACHARY TAYLOR (fewer than 150)

- Andrew Johnson (probably eight)

- Ulysses S. Grant (probably five)

One other thing that you should probably know. Lincoln fought the war from a slave holding city - Washington DC.

Although the slave trade had been abolished in the District of Columbia in 1850, slaves inhabited the capital for another 15 years – till the end of the Civil War. Dwell on that thought: Lincoln fought the Civil War in a slave city – the Great Emancipator inhabited a White House staffed by slaves.

http://hauensteincenter.org/slaveholding/

Oh I wish I was in de land of cotton - old times there are not forgotten, look away, look away to Dixieland.

[HeijoshinCool]

Is a slave owner a racist? Or an opportunist?

Are slaves the victims of racism, or exploiters? Were they enslaved because of their race, or as a result of their vulnerability?

[lostoday]

Is a slave owner a racist? Or an opportunist?

Are slaves the victims of racism, or exploiters? Were they enslaved because of their race, or as a result of their vulnerability?

Be happy. You don't have to worry about it. (in keeping with the topic) Taking down the Confederate flag will solve the problem.

[Publicus]

However, I think you feel that anyone owning slaves anytime was bad. I could be wrong.

GEORGE WASHINGTON (between 250-350 slaves)

- THOMAS JEFFERSON (about 200)

- JAMES MADISON (more than 100)

- JAMES MONROE (about 75)

- ANDREW JACKSON (fewer than 200)

- Martin Van Buren (one)

- William Henry Harrison (eleven)

- JOHN TYLER (about 70)

- JAMES POLK (about 25)

- ZACHARY TAYLOR (fewer than 150)

- Andrew Johnson (probably eight)

- Ulysses S. Grant (probably five)

One other thing that you should probably know. Lincoln fought the war from a slave holding city - Washington DC.

Although the slave trade had been abolished in the District of Columbia in 1850, slaves inhabited the capital for another 15 years – till the end of the Civil War. Dwell on that thought: Lincoln fought the Civil War in a slave city – the Great Emancipator inhabited a White House staffed by slaves.

http://hauensteincenter.org/slaveholding/

Oh I wish I was in de land of cotton - old times there are not forgotten, look away, look away to Dixieland.

The South lost and that is the bottom line because the Confederacy was wrong, weak, backward.

There are contradictions anywhere, such as have been referenced concerning the US War in Vietnam, which was a civil war there between the North and the South. The North won there too btw while some down in the South were singing Dixie.

The South lost in its opposition to the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the Civil Rights Act before it in 1964 and the South has lost another one now which is a strictly moral issue, the Confederate Battle Flag flying over state capitol buildings in certain states of the Old Confederacy. The flag long ago and much too easily became nationally associated with bitgots, racists, haters, such as Dylanne Storm Roof.

Anyone wants to sing Dixie can invite me to join in but only after we haul down that frag from over every state building in the South and yank it out of the ground in instances where they've planted it on government property.

[NeverSure]

Is a slave owner a racist? Or an opportunist?

Are slaves the victims of racism, or exploiters? Were they enslaved because of their race, or as a result of their vulnerability?

I think both, however I don't think so many would be opportunists if they weren't first racist. It might have been harder for these English emigrants to have rationalized enslaving a white person.

Of course, the US first started having slaves it was actually a British colony ruled by the King of England. In fact the US was predominately British and a British colony for much of its existence right to today.

Those known as The Founding Fathers of the US were predominately slave owners and predominately British people and British subjects.

As to this flag beef, the Stars and Stripes as its called meaning the current flag of the USA flew over the Capitol of the USA for 85 years between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, all while both the North and South had slaves.

The revered President Lincoln who some say freed the slaves had slaves in The White House at the time. The Civil War wasn't about slavery, it was about money. Taxes and controls were reviled by the South and the North couldn't just let the South secede as it wanted to because it couldn't afford to lose the money from the wealthier South.

A war about money. Imagine that. Two hypocritical sides, both with slaves, fighting about money. Imagine that.

[ABCer]

I am by comparison a very ignorant man. Meaning by comparison with all those posters here, Americans and knowing their history.

I have visited USA only for 6 weeks (Florida and California). Cannot and not even trying to compete in knowledge of historical facts.

I notice the OP contains words: "confederate flag will defy race hatred".

Well, I have seen a lot of it around during my visit. But I've never seen a confederate flag. Any flag is nothing but a symbol.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this race hatred is entrenched in USA social life. And it is alive and well after about 200 years.

On the other hand, I have noticed a significantly low level of general education in USA.

My idea is - if you show this insignificant piece of cloth with a big painted X on it to a 100 blacks in the street out of context -

they will most likely fail to identify it for whatever it used to stand 200 years back. And I mean no disrespect to any poster here.

I think we should try to find another root of the racial hatred eating USA and leave the irrelevant piece of cloth out of the search

Edited June 26, 2015 by ABCer

[Publicus]

I grew up a Yankee in the South and I have always been offended by the Confederate flag, although all southerners do not fly it in a racist manner. I am not sure how important it is, but I am all for getting rid of it.

As a USN Submarine Service crew member, I was stationed in Charleston and lived in the suburbs for nearly two years. I was in a US military bubble and didn't hang much with the locals and I was at sea about half the time. The few times I was out and around I sensed a disdain for my dark blue, winter uniform. Even when in civvies they knew I wasn't one of them and they weren't very hospitable. I got the feeling that I was considered an "occupying military force".

The only dicey encounter I had was with a kid from The Citadel Military College while I was in uniform. He thought the better of taking me on, but I couldn't help sensing even with the minimal time I spent in Charleston that they were still fighting the Civil War.

The military mind and experience is decidedly and radically different from the ordinary and normal civilian mind, which probably explains a lot of the posts around here.

Four years in Army ROTC in university and four more years as an officer of Infantry gave me invaluable lessons and experience in these respects.

Thanks for your honorable service and I do have a question if one doesn't mind, which is that it traditionally has been true submariners are short guys cause it's impractical to have a bunch of tall guyz in submarines. Jimmy Carter the US Naval Academy grad was for instance a submariner and if you've ever seen or met him he's a short guy.

It also seems to me US Marines have more personal Confederate flags per grunt than any other branch of the military,.. Army, Navy, Air Force and throw in the Coast Guard. (Actually i'd never met a Coast Guard grunt nor would I expect to.) Recall the grunt cop in McKinney Texas had put in ten years with the Navy too.

http://mic.com/articles/113310/why-the-u-s-army-doesn-t-need-racial-thursdays-a-special-day-for-racism