How Thailand Perceives the Massive Influx of Digital Nomads

[Lukecan]

There is only one succesfull digital nomad I know, the rest are counting pennies. That successful guy just got himself hooked up with a 5 year Thai Elite visa. So if you really make big bucks, then you shouldn't have any problems forking over 500k baht for a 5 year old visa.

I very rarely agree with any of your posts...but this occasion your remarks are spot on, if they are as successful as many claim then having USD 15k sitting around shouldn't be a problem and over the course of the visa it works out to around THB 260/day

I think we should differentiate here between a DM and someone setting up an on line business, as typically by the name DM's are that nomadic, ie they stay in one place/country for a while and move on somewhere else or a period, people setting up an on line business have typically set themselves up in one place an operate a business

one suspects many who claim to be DM's are not in fact DM's as they have set themselves up in Thailand, never go anywhere else and have purposely set up an on line business to finance their lives in Thailand.

I really don't get it. Some people claim to wipe their arse with money here, but when it comes to paying 100k baht/year for the privilege of staying in Thailand no questions asked, they say its a rip off.

I think this place is filled with pathological liars, lol.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Lukecan

[timmyp]

Excuses Excuses Excuses. If you really make big bucks from the net then you wouldn't care giving 3k/year to stay here. If I really made something like 100-150k year from the web, then I really wouldn't have any problem forking 3k from that money for the pleasure of staying here hassle free.

A person that makes real money wont waste his time researching how to live on 500$/month in CM doing visa runs or having a phony ed visa.

Heck come to think of it, if i even made something like 50k/year I'd still hand out 3k for that pleasure.

I dont have a thai elite visa unfortunately, but I think its very well worth the money for a person who is yougner than 50 and makes a decent amount of income

I agree with you Lukecan, that 100K per year is not too much, considering what freelancers hopefully make. The only drawbacks to the VIP pass are: 1) freelancers still aren't legit (that is, they're still working illegally with the VIP pass), and 2) the half million has to be put down all at once. It would be very appealing to my freelance friend if it were 100K per year as a lump sum, but half a million is too much all at once.

I have also heard concerns about the VIP pass potentially being wiped away with a change in government. I don't know how realistic that is, but it certainly makes the VIP pass less appealing.

[Lukecan]

Excuses Excuses Excuses. If you really make big bucks from the net then you wouldn't care giving 3k/year to stay here. If I really made something like 100-150k year from the web, then I really wouldn't have any problem forking 3k from that money for the pleasure of staying here hassle free.

A person that makes real money wont waste his time researching how to live on 500$/month in CM doing visa runs or having a phony ed visa.

Heck come to think of it, if i even made something like 50k/year I'd still hand out 3k for that pleasure.

I dont have a thai elite visa unfortunately, but I think its very well worth the money for a person who is yougner than 50 and makes a decent amount of income

I agree with you Lukecan, that 100K per year is not too much, considering what freelancers hopefully make. The only drawbacks to the VIP pass are: 1) freelancers still aren't legit (that is, they're still working illegally with the VIP pass), and 2) the half million has to be put down all at once. It would be very appealing to my freelance friend if it were 100K per year as a lump sum, but half a million is too much all at once.

I have also heard concerns about the VIP pass potentially being wiped away with a change in government. I don't know how realistic that is, but it certainly makes the VIP pass less appealing.

Timmy there will always be rumors of it being wiped out, but its very very unlikely. Even if the government changes, I'm sure the new government will honor it. Its just a measly pass, no big deal for them. Since Thailand desperately needs foreign direct investment, they wont make a move that might shake the general sentiment of the government. Historically speaking, property rights in this country have never been violated. Never heard of an instance where some farangs condo was confiscated because of the coup. If there was a real danger, the SET wouldn't trade at a P/E of 20, it would trade at around 5-6 like Russia.

[innerspace]

and than opening a company with 4 employees (not appropriate for an individual freelancer),

Well I know an individual Freelancer (not in the DN sense) who works O&G and he has set up a Ltd company which employs his wife, a maid etc to meet employee thing, he has a WP for Thailand through the company enabling to work for other various companies in Thailand/internationally as they retain his company to provide the service...the company is basically "him" and he is doing no different from a DN...

so how is this different from a DN's for freelance as you refer to ?....

So his wife is a Thai citizen, he has a maid, and someone else he can hire. Putting aside the investment and capitalisation required to create a company that can provide a work visa for your friend, it really doesn't seem like a good solution to say that your wife and two friends work for you when they don't (ok, I concede that calling the maid an employee sounds totally legit, but the wife and the other unnamed fourth employee "etc" are a stretch).

The DNs you've met certainly sound like obnoxious losers trying to skim off the system. Anyone that the video at the start of this thread is appealing to is not someone I care to meet. I've actually never even used the term "digital nomad" until I started posting on this site today, but like you, I've also come across some undesirable people who are freelancers, very content with themselves and their ability to barely eek out a living via the net. But I know far more freelancers that aren't that way.

Now, for the people making a substantial income who want to get legit, it would be great if there were a way that is more realistic than setting up a company with pretend employees, that doesn't require 2 million THB down. That's not about calling for a special treatment, it's about being more realistic after considering the reality of freelancers.

For example, a freelancer visa could require 100K down, plus proof of earnings and taxes paid. That sounds fair to me, and hopefully addresses all the people out there who think that freelancers are just freeloaders. Of course those are just arbitrary ideas for what a freelance visa might require, but it's an attempt to acknowledge the gov's desire to keep tabs on foreigners in Thailand, and the gov gets the tax earnings.

The fact is that freelancers are going to come here because that's that way the world economy is going. It's better to find a way to make them legitimate than have so many skirting the system. Set the bar at an appropriate height, and everyone's concerns will be addressed. Of course people will continue to try flying under the radar, but at least it will bring many out of the shadows, such as my friend.

First up you are talking about the 2mill capital as "down" implying upfront and suggesting that 100k down would be better.

How about 12k "down" which is all thats needed on a 2mil company.

Plus there are numerous options for legal employment with reduced obligations... some short term some long.

Boi eliminates numerous hurdles but is for thai entrepreneurs not digital nomads.

Plus there are legal companies who employ digital nomads, provide work permits and visa in exchange for a percentage of a minimum earning...I think boi sponsored... solves the issues people keep spouting.

Thai elite for the rest.

[HooHaa]

another thread to entertain bored people based on the (drawn out of thin air) assumption of a "massive influx" of certain professionals. in my [not so] humble view any intelligent "digital nomad" is doing his job quietly and gives a flying fàrt about work permits, taxes or the tedious way of setting up a company to obtain a work/residence permit.

correct

[gerry1011]

There is only one succesfull digital nomad I know, the rest are counting pennies. That successful guy just got himself hooked up with a 5 year Thai Elite visa. So if you really make big bucks, then you shouldn't have any problems forking over 500k baht for a 5 year old visa.

Well no offense to Thailand but that amounts to around 500 baht a day. Over 10 dollars. Just for a visa. With that amount you can easily pay for airfares around the world, and solid rentals. Hell if you stay in Asia that's enough to travel around every month, using business class. Why pay for an Elite visa? Sounds like the biggest ripoff, if you're actually generating the cash using your own efforts.

Would be interesting to find a list of Elite class people. Sounds kind of like a scam or legal form of bribery. Over 15,000 us dollars for a temporary visa???

10 dollars a day for a convenient visa... "a ripoff"?

Some think differently and consider that amount to be negligible.

There are many posters on this forum who are Thailand Elite members. Browse the threads and find out more about it.

Up to everyone to consider the value of this program.

Some think that it is a scam... Up to them to think the way they want.

On my side, what I can tell you is that I am a member of Thailand Elite since 12 years... and that the Thailand Elite PE visa is like a dream.

A dream at 10 dollars a day?

A bargain. According to me, at least.

Edited June 24, 2015 by gerry1011

[timmyp]

First up you are talking about the 2mill capital as "down" implying upfront and suggesting that 100k down would be better.

How about 12k "down" which is all thats needed on a 2mil company.

Plus there are numerous options for legal employment with reduced obligations... some short term some long.

Boi eliminates numerous hurdles but is for thai entrepreneurs not digital nomads.

Plus there are legal companies who employ digital nomads, provide work permits and visa in exchange for a percentage of a minimum earning...I think boi sponsored... solves the issues people keep spouting.

Thai elite for the rest.

You're saying it's only 12k down? That's all that needs to be in the bank? That can't possibly be right?

I remember looking into this 4 years ago, and thinking that up to 100K a year would be worth it. But the cost of opening a company or the cost of hiring an agency to pseudo-open a company (in which the agency sets up the info for the other employees, etc.) both had their drawbacks, and wound up being over 100,000 baht year in the end. Please tell me if I've got this wrong.

[innerspace]

First up you are talking about the 2mill capital as "down" implying upfront and suggesting that 100k down would be better.

How about 12k "down" which is all thats needed on a 2mil company.

Plus there are numerous options for legal employment with reduced obligations... some short term some long.

Boi eliminates numerous hurdles but is for thai entrepreneurs not digital nomads.

Plus there are legal companies who employ digital nomads, provide work permits and visa in exchange for a percentage of a minimum earning...I think boi sponsored... solves the issues people keep spouting.

Thai elite for the rest.

You're saying it's only 12k down? That's all that needs to be in the bank? That can't possibly be right?

I remember looking into this 4 years ago, and thinking that up to 100K a year would be worth it. But the cost of opening a company or the cost of hiring an agency to pseudo-open a company (in which the agency sets up the info for the other employees, etc.) both had their drawbacks, and wound up being over 100,000 baht year in the end. Please tell me if I've got this wrong.

12k down (cash paid) for 2 mil registered capital is correct.

2 mil is liability, but no need to be paid or in a bank.

100k per year all in, most likely with all expenses included.... but so would the taxes and accounting if paid in most countries back home without scamming systems.

In the uk lots of people are complaining about the immigrants stealing jobs and not paying taxes. Here lots of brits and others complaining they cant stay when not paying taxes.

I work in the digital nomad industry with a thai company, staff, visa, work permit and tax so see and understand both sides...but fundamentally nothing is free so if you want benefits pay your share.

There are ways to do so despite the naysayers.

[jspill]

thailand's perception of the "digital nomad" is unclear, however the perception of people who work online by miserable retirees and offshore workers and corporate salarymen on thaivisa is, as you can see, abundantly obvious.

oddly entrepreneurs and business owners do not seem to have the same issues.

Sums up the thread perfectly

[jspill]

another thread to entertain bored people based on the (drawn out of thin air) assumption of a "massive influx" of certain professionals. in my [not so] humble view any intelligent "digital nomad" is doing his job quietly and gives a flying fàrt about work permits, taxes or the tedious way of setting up a company to obtain a work/residence permit.

Yep, going on 7 years now, several of which I've spent reading threads like these on ThaiVisa. A lot of mental gymnastics being done by posters about it being illegal and the Thai government not liking us, when the alien labor act mentions nothing about working remotely for offshore entities and being paid in a foreign currency, and the government haven't clarified the issue.

[Soutpeel]

So his wife is a Thai citizen, he has a maid, and someone else he can hire. Putting aside the investment and capitalisation required to create a company that can provide a work visa for your friend, it really doesn't seem like a good solution to say that your wife and two friends work for you when they don't (ok, I concede that calling the maid an employee sounds totally legit, but the wife and the other unnamed fourth employee "etc" are a stretch).

Whats wrong with having "a wife" working for you, I know multiple business owners in a few countries who do exactly the same..so where is the problem ?

in the Thai context, if they are drawing a salary/paying the tax and paying SS they are legit employees, and real people as are the others, so please don't suggest this is not legit or a "stretch" and the fact typically due to wife being share holder in the 49%/51% company split it makes perfect sense

[Ace of Pop]

Credit to them. The ones I know prove its possible to live on 5$ Day

[timmyp]

So his wife is a Thai citizen, he has a maid, and someone else he can hire. Putting aside the investment and capitalisation required to create a company that can provide a work visa for your friend, it really doesn't seem like a good solution to say that your wife and two friends work for you when they don't (ok, I concede that calling the maid an employee sounds totally legit, but the wife and the other unnamed fourth employee "etc" are a stretch).

Whats wrong with having "a wife" working for you, I know multiple business owners in a few countries who do exactly the same..so where is the problem ?

in the Thai context, if they are drawing a salary/paying the tax and paying SS they are legit employees, and real people as are the others, so please don't suggest this is not legit or a "stretch" and the fact typically due to wife being share holder in the 49%/51% company split it makes perfect sense

Nothing is wrong with it if she's actually working for you. If she's just down there to fill out the form and some arbitrary statement was made about her duties and income, then it's just bending the rules again, which I thought was something we were trying to avoid in discussing a solution to the freelancer visa problem? And the spouse would have to be a Thai citizen, anyway, for the work visa. Not very workable for those who don't have a Thai spouse.

Same applies to the shareholder example. I agree that it makes sense for those who are married to a Thai national.

[expatinbangkok]

Credit to them. The ones I know prove its possible to live on 5$ Day

It seems logical by the nature of it - working for yourself online trying to set up a business - that you'll only meet ones with a little money or a lot. They're also quite young.

I'd rather that than wake up to an alarm clock everyday and work for someone else.

[timmyp]

Credit to them. The ones I know prove its possible to live on 5$ Day

It seems logical by the nature of it - working for yourself online trying to set up a business - that you'll only meet ones with a little money or a lot. They're also quite young.

I'd rather that than wake up to an alarm clock everyday and work for someone else.

My good bestest friend makes more freelancing on a daily/weekly basis than when he was an engineer in Japan, but that work is inconsistent. That can become very unnerving. No work for 2 months at a time, especially with the starts and stalls of the economy (tho things have really picked up in the last couple months).

Freelancing has the added value of freedom that you don't get when you have to show up to an office, but then there are no paid vacation days. Stability is certainly a very valuable thing... Freelance or not, you're still working for someone else, whether it's the boss or the client.

While long term relationships with coworkers can suck at times, it's nice to have social interactions with people. As a freelancer, days can go by sitting in your underpants at the computer at home. Gotta make a concerted effort & schedule to go out and socialize!

So I don't think it's a dream lifestyle, and I certainly understand the appeal of working for someone else.

[Soutpeel]

As a freelancer, days can go by sitting in your underpants at the computer at home. Gotta make a concerted effort & schedule to go out and socialize!

So I don't think it's a dream lifestyle, and I certainly understand the appeal of working for someone else.

I have freelancers work for me, and if they sat around in their underpants, they would be getting run off...

I think you need to define what you mean by a "freelancer"....as one suspects you think its means, somebody sitting in their bedsit condo, working on a computer in their underpants, plenty of other variants to being a "freelancer" and some of these jobs were around way before the internet and the current DP's where just a sperm cell in their fathers nutsack

And many "freelancers" do get up in the morning at go to an office, DM haven't invented "Freelancing" its been around a long long time already

[Ace of Pop]

They were known as Art Students before Cyber Space .

[Loptr]

And here we have the other side of the coin...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/835698-advice-needed-for-friend-caught-working-illegally/

[Soutpeel]

And here we have the other side of the coin...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/835698-advice-needed-for-friend-caught-working-illegally/

and for those who whinge "its just not fair, Thailand's work rules are so tough, its unfair "....stamp little feet and start pouting

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/835783-think-thailands-rules-on-work-are-tough-maybe-but-perhaps-no-more-than-many-other-countries/

[Soutpeel]

They were known as Art Students before Cyber Space .

4 years of higher education in the Liberal arts, before the realisation hits home they were not remotely qualified to do anything in real life to earn money ?

and get all upset when they end up packing shelves ?

[Franky Bear]

Credit to them. The ones I know prove its possible to live on 5$ Day

It seems logical by the nature of it - working for yourself online trying to set up a business - that you'll only meet ones with a little money or a lot. They're also quite young.

I'd rather that than wake up to an alarm clock everyday and work for someone else.

My good bestest friend makes more freelancing on a daily/weekly basis than when he was an engineer in Japan, but that work is inconsistent. That can become very unnerving. No work for 2 months at a time, especially with the starts and stalls of the economy (tho things have really picked up in the last couple months).

Freelancing has the added value of freedom that you don't get when you have to show up to an office, but then there are no paid vacation days. Stability is certainly a very valuable thing... Freelance or not, you're still working for someone else, whether it's the boss or the client.

While long term relationships with coworkers can suck at times, it's nice to have social interactions with people. As a freelancer, days can go by sitting in your underpants at the computer at home. Gotta make a concerted effort & schedule to go out and socialize!

So I don't think it's a dream lifestyle, and I certainly understand the appeal of working for someone else.

If you freelance in the engineering game the pay is high so as long as you are sensible enough you can take a long time off. I've not worked since dec 28th and am

More than comfortable still

I did start here in Thailand on June 15 nits a 7 week job and if I don't work till next year I'm fine

[Soutpeel]

Credit to them. The ones I know prove its possible to live on 5$ Day

It seems logical by the nature of it - working for yourself online trying to set up a business - that you'll only meet ones with a little money or a lot. They're also quite young.

I'd rather that than wake up to an alarm clock everyday and work for someone else.

My good bestest friend makes more freelancing on a daily/weekly basis than when he was an engineer in Japan, but that work is inconsistent. That can become very unnerving. No work for 2 months at a time, especially with the starts and stalls of the economy (tho things have really picked up in the last couple months).

Freelancing has the added value of freedom that you don't get when you have to show up to an office, but then there are no paid vacation days. Stability is certainly a very valuable thing... Freelance or not, you're still working for someone else, whether it's the boss or the client.

While long term relationships with coworkers can suck at times, it's nice to have social interactions with people. As a freelancer, days can go by sitting in your underpants at the computer at home. Gotta make a concerted effort & schedule to go out and socialize!

So I don't think it's a dream lifestyle, and I certainly understand the appeal of working for someone else.

If you freelance in the engineering game the pay is high so as long as you are sensible enough you can take a long time off. I've not worked since dec 28th and am

More than comfortable still

I did start here in Thailand on June 15 nits a 7 week job and if I don't work till next year I'm fine

Do you sit in your underpants in front of a computer Franky ?.....seems to be an important "qualification" if you wish to call yourself a true "freelancer"

What is obvious, there are some who actually believe the DM's/DP's invented the freelance business...

[jacky54]

Digital sexpats might be a more accurate perception

[Soutpeel]

Digital sexpats might be a more accurate perception

Which raises the following point...

One of the underlying reasons why a DM visa will never be made available in the form people want is the fact, the government would no oversight of what that person is getting up to on line, in the name of "digital nomadary" in other words they could be seen as supporting/condoning possible illegal activity on line, by handing out long term visa's to some "retard" who has a laptop and proclaims he is an internet businessman/person/entrepreneur

If something like this every came about, which I don't believe it ever will, they will be required to register some form of legal entity in Thailand

[timmyp]

I have freelancers work for me, and if they sat around in their underpants, they would be getting run off...

I think you need to define what you mean by a "freelancer"....as one suspects you think its means, somebody sitting in their bedsit condo, working on a computer in their underpants, plenty of other variants to being a "freelancer" and some of these jobs were around way before the internet and the current DP's where just a sperm cell in their fathers nutsack

And many "freelancers" do get up in the morning at go to an office, DM haven't invented "Freelancing" its been around a long long time already

Sorry, for not defining freelancer, you're hung up on the word. Of course, DM didn't invent the "freelancing," not sure why you needed to clarify that. I was doing freelance work before it became possible and popular to do many jobs via the net.

Obviously the scene that I painted of a freelancer is someone who works at home and doesn't interact with coworkers. Yes, certainly you should fire anyone in your office working in their underpants.

I guess you're thinking freelancer = go to a company and work there for a short period of time. Much of that can be done online now, no reason to go to an office. That has been the case for over 15 years now.

Freelancer is not a new thing, as you point out, it was around before the internet. Those freelancer jobs continue to be around, but many can be done on the internet. I gave you examples before: computer programmers, architects, translators, etc. I'm sure you can think of others.

Yes, many freelancers still go to an office because their jobs require it. Most of the freelancer who I personally know have offices other than their homes, and have never meet their clients. That is not uncommon, it's where the world has gone in the last 15 years. Honestly, I thought this was so obvious that it didn't need to be explained. If you think "freelancer" means that someone has to go into an office (and hopefully dressed), then I will stop using the term "freelancer" with you.

You clearly have something against the so-called digital nomad/DN, and are hung up on putting it down as something that unqualified and poorly paid <deleted> are trying to justify as a career. Perhaps you met a couple of obnoxious self-proclaimed DNs, and now you feel it is your duty to discredit the concept. I'm sure there are people out there as you described, the young DN claiming to be a savvy entrepreneur but is nothing more than a guy on a barely sustainable income. But it's odd that you keep trying to discredit the idea that many are qualified professional who work on a freelance basis via the internet. If you don't like the term DN (and I don't really like it either), then net freelancer. If you think that's too inaccurate because it could mean that someone visits clients, then pick another term.

You seem so overwhelmed with irritation about the idea of the DM that you are caught up in only finding ways to discredit it. I agree with the existence of all the <deleted> you describe, but it's really short-sighted of you to think that's representative of people working 100% via the internet. I hope you can get over whatever experience it is you had that gave you your ideas about people whose careers are fully online.

Back to the topic of the thread: People working fully online are a reality now. They are in Thailand, and will continue to come to Thailand. Better to find a way of getting them legit that is more realistic than requiring 4 employees. Setting a relatively high bar is good in my opinion, it will keep poorly qualified people out, and that is something many people are concerned about. I am a supporter of paying taxes/dues/fees, and I agree that any visa requirements should include that. Many net freelancers (or whatever term you prefer) would be happy to pay taxes if it meant getting legit in a realistic way.

[robblok]

Digital sexpats might be a more accurate perception

Which raises the following point...

One of the underlying reasons why a DM visa will never be made available in the form people want is the fact, the government would no oversight of what that person is getting up to on line, in the name of "digital nomadary" in other words they could be seen as supporting/condoning possible illegal activity on line, by handing out long term visa's to some "retard" who has a laptop and proclaims he is an internet businessman/person/entrepreneur

If something like this every came about, which I don't believe it ever will, they will be required to register some form of legal entity in Thailand

Easiest way (and you probably would not agree with me), just let digital nomads be free of the rule that they have to employ Thais and the fact they can't have 100% shares. This only goes of course if they only serve foreigners in their home country.

Then they would be the same as any business owner and there would be oversight.

[robblok]

Digital sexpats might be a more accurate perception

Like the oil and gas workers are not sex pats, come on digital nomads are no more extra sexpats as the oil and gas workers the English teachers and the retired ones. It would be foolish to say that one group has more people attracted to sex as any other.

In reality most digital nomads are younger and far more unlikely to have to pay for sex as their retired countrymen. (before i get the union of OAP's attacking me) That does not mean that all retired guys are sexpats.

[mmh8]

Thailand takes an active stance against these nomads by blocking websites hither and thither

[Franky Bear]

Credit to them. The ones I know prove its possible to live on 5$ Day

It seems logical by the nature of it - working for yourself online trying to set up a business - that you'll only meet ones with a little money or a lot. They're also quite young.

I'd rather that than wake up to an alarm clock everyday and work for someone else.

My good bestest friend makes more freelancing on a daily/weekly basis than when he was an engineer in Japan, but that work is inconsistent. That can become very unnerving. No work for 2 months at a time, especially with the starts and stalls of the economy (tho things have really picked up in the last couple months).

Freelancing has the added value of freedom that you don't get when you have to show up to an office, but then there are no paid vacation days. Stability is certainly a very valuable thing... Freelance or not, you're still working for someone else, whether it's the boss or the client.

While long term relationships with coworkers can suck at times, it's nice to have social interactions with people. As a freelancer, days can go by sitting in your underpants at the computer at home. Gotta make a concerted effort & schedule to go out and socialize!

So I don't think it's a dream lifestyle, and I certainly understand the appeal of working for someone else.

If you freelance in the engineering game the pay is high so as long as you are sensible enough you can take a long time off. I've not worked since dec 28th and am

More than comfortable still

I did start here in Thailand on June 15 nits a 7 week job and if I don't work till next year I'm fine

Do you sit in your underpants in front of a computer Franky ?.....seems to be an important "qualification" if you wish to call yourself a true "freelancer"

What is obvious, there are some who actually believe the DM's/DP's invented the freelance business...

Haha

Nah I'm supervising lad building stuff for a shutdown. We start in Mataput on weds. Not looking forwards to climbing up and down those towers several times a day. At least I'll

Lose a few kilos

Haha

[robblok]

Thailand takes an active stance against these nomads by blocking websites hither and thither

Do you really believe this ? There is no other reason like a junta not liking what is posted on those websites. You are sure this is aimed at digital nomads ?

You must be one of those guys who gets secret information from the government that we are all missing out on.