Big Impact Expected From Tougher Visa Rules

[george]

Big impact expected from tougher visa-free entry rules

BANGKOK: -- The days of foreign visitors doing endless "border runs" in order to live - and often work - in Thailand are over, the Immigration Police announced yesterday.

The Kingdom will tighten its immigration rules for tourists who exploit visa-free regulations, starting from the end of the month.

The move will affect tens of thousands of visitors from 41 countries who have been allowed to stay in Thailand for up to 30 days without a visa - often for many months or years.

The 41 visa-exempt countries include Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada, France, Germany, Japan and the United States.

Tourists have been able to extend their stay by travelling to neighbouring countries - Cambodia, Malaysia, Laos and Burma - and returning with a further 30-day entry stamp.

But new rules have been issued because an increasing number of tourists have stayed for extended periods - without paying proper amounts of tax. This has also helped them avoid close scrutiny by authorities here and in their homeland.

"We are trying to make it more difficult for bad people to get in," Immigration Police chief Lt General Suwat Thamrongsrisakul said at a press conference yesterday.

"I don't think it's going to hurt good people because they can apply for a tourist visa [in their homeland]," he said.

The move is expected to have a big impact on the foreign community and some sectors such as teaching and diving, plus places where there are many bars run by foreigners, such as Pattaya and Chiang Mai.

From October 1, tourists from the 41 visa-exempt countries may still enter Thailand without visas and stay for up to 30 days, but they will only be able to extend their stay here two times - that is, for a maximum of 90 days.

And tourists who stay for 90 days must leave the Kingdom for at least 90 days before being permitted to re-enter Thailand.

Suwat denied the crackdown was related to the arrest in Bangkok last month of John Mark Karr, the American teacher who was thought to have been involved in the high-profile JonBenet Ramsey murder case. He said there were many reasons that extended back for a long period.

Suwat conceded the move may cause some problems, but said "maybe we have to do something to make it better [later]".

However, if foreigners wanted to work here they should get a work visa, he said.

A source added: "Under the current rules, people from these countries can stay in Thailand for as long as they want. Some even stay here for one year. Many work illegally in Thailand."

Instead of sightseeing, these tourists have taken advantage of the visa exemption by getting married to Thai women "for reasons other than love", and have conducted business here. Many of them have not paid tax.

The immigration move is a hot topic among foreign residents, and comes at a time when many are fearful about possible changes in regard to firms with local nominees.

Hundreds of comments were logged on local Web boards within hours of the Immigration Department press conference. Some said foreigners should abandon Thailand for neighbouring countries, while others predicted it might force school bosses to pay foreign teachers a proper wage or cause a boom in men wanting to marry Thai women.

Most believed the move could cost Thailand a small fortune.

Meanwhile, plans are under way to simplify the process for foreign teachers to work here as the current system requires 13 separate steps, which take many months to complete.

Heads of international schools have been meeting with the Immigration Department to try to simplify the process.

Thailand recently simplified the process for foreigners who want to become permanent residents. The amount of paperwork required has been slashed and the time involved reportedly cut from more than a year to about four months.

Last year Thailand tightened its immigration rules for South Asian tourists, who were allowed to apply for visas on arrival that permitted them to stay for 30 days. Many of them took advantage by travelling to neighbouring countries and returning to get a new visa on arrival at the airport.

Under the new rules, they are allowed to obtain a visa on arrival only twice from neighbouring countries. They are then required to return to their country of origin to obtain an entry visa to Thailand.

Jim Pollard

-- The Nation 2006-09-16

Here is the new rules from Oct 1, 2006

[Tywais]

Thailand recently simplified the process for foreigners who want to become permanent residents. The amount of paperwork required has been slashed and the time involved reportedly cut from more than a year to about four months.

Will be very interested in hearing more about this.

[ChiangMaiThai]

How many single entry visas tourist will the Thai Embassies/Consulates give per year?

This question is just screaming to be answered and yet still, I can't find an answer.

Obviosuly, this will be the first thought of those on 30 day stamps. Just switch to single entry tourist visas. Will this be permitted or not?

If this has been answered, please point me to the thread.

[cbatson]

Instead of sightseeing, these tourists have taken advantage of the visa exemption by getting married to Thai women "for reasons other than love", and have conducted business here. Many of them have not paid tax.

Foreigners not paying tax is a big problem -- There is nowhere else to go for revenue, as all Thai business owners are law-abiding and proudly pay all taxes due already.

I hope they have and are using data to drive policy. Personally I can't imagine that lost business tax revenue comes anywhere close to the inflow of foreign money "tourists" bring with them.

Chuck

[wondering]

the whole thing is so absolutely ludicrous it defies description.

how many billion baht is the marketing department of thai government pouring into worldwide advertising and pr campaigns to ATTRACT more people to come to the kingdom, pretty please?

their government maintains offices in every major country for the only purpose of attracting and enticing folks to come and spend some money.

Scizophrenic as can be, while marketing is spending billions of tax baht on trying to attract visitors, another department of the bureaucracy, called Immigration, is paranoically issuing new rules effectively discouraging people from coming and/or staying/investing in the Kingdom.

Another beautiful example of the usual insanity of bureaucracies (by no means confined to Thailand)

Sooner or later even they will find out that visitors have choices...that there are many many nice countries to visit, live, invest and spend money.

Goodbye land of no more smiles

[Mali_in_CM]

If they were one third of the way smart, they would simply let the falang fo to immig and pay a few hundred B to extend.

Instead of causing more traffic, more wasted fuel [so much for "energy policy"] and making the Burmese and Lao rich.

I guess we file this under "not smart enough."

[giulio]

Thailand recently simplified the process for foreigners who want to become permanent residents. The amount of paperwork required has been slashed and the time involved reportedly cut from more than a year to about four months.

Will be very interested in hearing more about this.

yes also me

but,i don't think is true

everybody that try to get,say me is very expansive(incl.extra),very long time e so difficoulty

also for right people,people that have right for get this visa

so,i not believe is true story

[zxray]

If that is the offial statement, immigration police say a tourist may only stay in the country for 90 days, then must leave the country for 90 days. Seems pretty clear to me, tourists are now 90 days max.

Ray

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

If that is the offial statement, immigration police say a tourist may only stay in the country for 90 days, then must leave the country for 90 days. Seems pretty clear to me, tourists are now 90 days max.

Ray

I think its going to be 90 days of VOA via overland border checkpoints. If you have tourist visa then the 90 days does not start counting until your visa expires. Also a Nation article I read and something from Sunbelt said if you fly in then that VOA does not count toward your 90.

and thru all this the immigration people will have descretion.

What I think they have finally done smart is to take the revenue away from neighboring countries and charge internally. What I don't understand though is why not have a category of visa where the applicant just pays 20K baht for a year of no border runs. That would cover a lot of lost tax revenue.

They can make the person report every 90 days and take their picture or other biometrics and use the revenue to link their computers with Interpol etc and if there is a bad guy in LOS then its easy to track him down. The Thai government could become a model for global accountability if they wanted to but of course TIT.

[khunmarc]

Instead of sightseeing, these tourists have taken advantage of the visa exemption by getting married to Thai women "for reasons other than love", and have conducted business here. Many of them have not paid tax.

Foreigners not paying tax is a big problem -- There is nowhere else to go for revenue, as all Thai business owners are law-abiding and proudly pay all taxes due already.

I hope they have and are using data to drive policy. Personally I can't imagine that lost business tax revenue comes anywhere close to the inflow of foreign money "tourists" bring with them.

Chuck

well how many law abaiding Thai businessman do you know???LOL

gee even the cops dont obey the laws that dont suit them

[frankie52]

From one who has a "retirement" visa I think the time to go has come so I say to Malatysia "would you like some money?"!

[Tuschno]

Has the future of the tourist visa and how long you can stay in Thailand been explained or still uncertain? Penang has been ordered to stop issuing double-entry visas, yet you can still apply for single entries (90 days). After the initial visa is what remains questionable or how many consecutive single entries will be permitted?

At the present, there are options. I have not been there since 2001, but the Thai Consulate at Kota Bharu is apparently still providing double-entry visas for those up to the adventure crossing at Tak Bai Narathiwat Province. Definately contact them directly to confirm.

And to whom it applies, foreign Royal Consulates seem to be presently offering double-entry tourist visas, including Los Angeles. Immigration officials seem to encourage this option.

It is possible that these opportunities are being dwindled away.

[Chelseafan]

If they were one third of the way smart, they would simply let the falang fo to immig and pay a few hundred B to extend.

Instead of causing more traffic, more wasted fuel [so much for "energy policy"] and making the Burmese and Lao rich.

I guess we file this under "not smart enough."

On the contary, The Thais are being very smart. A poster mentioned about the advertising abroad, this is exactly the point. Thailand wants foreign people in thailand, or rather they want foreign investment....the average sex tourist who does a 30 day run isnt the sort of person that LOS wants.

On the other hand, a businessman who wants to legitimately set up a company that pays taxes and employs Thai personnel is welcome via a work permit.

I can see their point. Someone who has been in Thailand for 5 years on continious 30 day stamps does not bring money into the country and in all honesty is more than likely working illegaly....

The smaller issues is that of those people under 50 who have more than enough money to support themselves but are not ledgable for a retirement visa - This is where the Thai's should change the law.....but at the end of the day, its THEIR country.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Has the future of the tourist visa and how long you can stay in Thailand been explained or still uncertain? Penang has been ordered to stop issuing double-entry visas, yet you can still apply for single entries (90 days). After the initial visa is what remains questionable or how many consecutive single entries will be permitted?

At the present, there are options. I have not been there since 2001, but the Thai Consulate at Kota Bharu is apparently still providing double-entry visas for those up to the adventure crossing at Tak Bai Narathiwat Province. Definately contact them directly to confirm.

And to whom it applies, foreign Royal Consulates seem to be presently offering double-entry tourist visas, including Los Angeles. Immigration officials seem to encourage this option.

It is possible that these opportunities are being dwindled away.

well okay lets say you fly back to your home country and get a double tourist visa. That gives you 6 months with extensions. Then you should be able to get 2 or 3 Voa's. Then after 9 months fly back to your country of origin and repeat process. Bring back some cheap items from your country that are expensive here and sell them. Also stock up on some items you pay too much for here that are imported and he actual cost of all this on your bottom line would be just a little more than the old system.

[zxray]

If that is the offial statement, immigration police say a tourist may only stay in the country for 90 days, then must leave the country for 90 days. Seems pretty clear to me, tourists are now 90 days max.

Ray

I think its going to be 90 days of VOA via overland border checkpoints. If you have tourist visa then the 90 days does not start counting until your visa expires. Also a Nation article I read and something from Sunbelt said if you fly in then that VOA does not count toward your 90.

and thru all this the immigration people will have descretion.

What I think they have finally done smart is to take the revenue away from neighboring countries and charge internally. What I don't understand though is why not have a category of visa where the applicant just pays 20K baht for a year of no border runs. That would cover a lot of lost tax revenue.

If you are not a tourist while having a tourist visa......... Then what are you?

It also says that I will have to return to my country of origin, after 90 days, to apply for another visa, I assume that this means the United States, for me.

Ray

They can make the person report every 90 days and take their picture or other biometrics and use the revenue to link their computers with Interpol etc and if there is a bad guy in LOS then its easy to track him down. The Thai government could become a model for global accountability if they wanted to but of course TIT.

[george]

Thailand tighten rules for foreign visitors

BANGKOK: -- "Thailand never turns away people with problems, no matter where they're from," run the lyrics to a famous Thai country song. "They cross the border, the Mekong River where the water is murky/To ask for the protection of Siam/We welcome them with a smile."

It would be hard to find a place with a more deeply ingrained sense of hospitality than Thailand. Tolerance of outsiders' quirks and an overall laissez- faire attitude make the country one of Asia's top tourist destinations, drawing more than 11 million visitors last year.

But Thais are now pondering, as they do periodically, whether the doors to the well-advertised "Amazing Thailand" have been opened too wide.

The country's Immigration Department on Friday took some small but symbolic steps in regulating foreign visitors, tightening requirements for entrepreneurs who come to Thailand to set up businesses and increasing scrutiny of marriages between foreigners and Thais.

"We will check whether they are really in love or not," Suwat Thamrongsrisakul, the head of the department, said at a news conference.

Suwat also announced new rules that effectively limit to three months the total stay of Western tourists without visas. The move should have a limited effect on most holiday-makers but could disturb the routines of retired people, long-stay backpackers and those who work or study in the country but who are registered as tourists.

"We want real tourists, not fake tourists," Suwat said.

The Friday announcement followed the high-profile deportation of an American, John Mark Karr, who famously and falsely confessed in August to the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, the Colorado girl found dead a decade ago in a case that captivated America.

Karr lived in the country on and off for almost two years, teaching English at two local schools. He stayed as a tourist and left the country periodically on "visa runs" to Cambodia and Malaysia when his tourist visa needed renewal - a practice that the new immigration rules seek to curtail.

Thais were shocked when Karr, who had taught elementary students, admitted to having a fondness for little girls.

"Thailand should check more carefully about the foreigners who come here," said Kritiyanee Petrpow, 28, a saleswoman doing her rounds in downtown Bangkok. "Schools should better check teachers' records," added Kritiyanee, who has a 9-year-old son.

Karr is just one of a roster of sex offenders, ex-convicts and other fugitives who turn up regularly in the freewheeling country. They are a small fraction of Thailand's tourist arrivals but they often make headlines. Add to this the country's image as a center for sex tourism and many Thais say they want some of the grime swept away.

"People think Thailand is cheap food and cheap girls," said Chantanee Seesang, a 25-year-old teacher sitting in a Bangkok coffee shop. "It would be a good thing if they tried to keep these types of people out," she said, referring to sex tourists.

Yet being more selective about who is allowed into the country is difficult if not impossible, said Pansak Vinyaratn, a top policy adviser to Thailand's interim prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra.

"It's difficult to tell who is who," Pansak said. "Sometimes the guy who looks like a creep is an investment banker."

Or both.

The last line of "Thailand, Land of Smiles," the Thai country ditty sung by the late, beloved Phumphuang Duangchan, comes with an instructive disclaimer. "If you respect the rights of Thais, you can live here as long as you want," Phumphuang sang. "Thailand always smiles."

--IHT 2006-09-15

[zxray]

They could do a lot of things, if they wanted. But what they have said so far, is 90 days for tourists, then go home, or elsewhere for 90 days. It has me scrambling to get an O visa, and application for a retirement visa on short notice. yes TIT

Ray

[zxray]

Thailand recieved a lot of bad press in the U.S. over the Karr fiasco.

Eg, Nancy Grace on CNN national news ranting about Bangkok

Ray

[Basil B]

As most real tourists only spend a few weeks in Thailand, then these new rules will not affect them.

Those who spend months on end in the kingdom are not real tourists.

[lucky2103]

Well, it' time to go somewhere else. Laos sounds good. I heard within 1 year one can become a naturalized citizen. But without dual citizenship it's a no- no.

[hardy1943]

I know a few that have been here for 10 -15 years own a business and make 30 days run.

I can not blame them for changing the law.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

They could do a lot of things, if they wanted. But what they have said so far, is 90 days for tourists, then go home, or elsewhere for 90 days. It has me scrambling to get an O visa, and application for a retirement visa on short notice. yes TIT

Ray

Ray check the quote from the above article

"Suwat also announced new rules that effectively limit to three months the total stay of Western tourists without visas"

the 90 days is for VOA's which are permission to stay without an issued visa. For tourists with real visa's issued from a consulate abroad then its business as usual.

[oevna]

Hello, Cambodia!

[Pattayasam]

I dont claim to have a clue about this but common sense tells me the Land borders are going to be where problems are. I flew into Bangkok yesterday, I am Australian so VOA. I use Thailand as a Hub....I have about 25 VOA this year and passport is 3 years old.....so you can imagine the number.

If this is to be enforced at the Airport it will mean screening and checking by Travel Agents and Airlines before someone gets on a plane. If its like now where nobody seems to know for sure and Thai Immigration have some different interpretation its going to be a real mess. Suppose people stuck at the airport will fill the new place.

Land Borders........ pretty easy to turn them back and they are not in Thailand so no problem. Airport a lot different. My common sense ..... or lack of,suggests this scenarion. Like others I dont know for sure.

[WNOVAK]

I dont claim to have a clue about this but common sense tells me the Land borders are going to be where problems are. I flew into Bangkok yesterday, I am Australian so VOA. I use Thailand as a Hub....I have about 25 VOA this year and passport is 3 years old.....so you can imagine the number.

If this is to be enforced at the Airport it will mean screening and checking by Travel Agents and Airlines before someone gets on a plane. If its like now where nobody seems to know for sure and Thai Immigration have some different interpretation its going to be a real mess. Suppose people stuck at the airport will fill the new place.

Land Borders........ pretty easy to turn them back and they are not in Thailand so no problem. Airport a lot different. My common sense ..... or lack of,suggests this scenarion. Like others I dont know for sure.

Pattaysam

A possible point of correction.

As a fellow Australian we are on a "visa exempt" status(for 30 days) when we arrive in Thailand.

The stamp in our passport is not a visa. therefore it is probably misleading to say you get a Visa on Arrival (voa) The VOA is for the 41 countries who do not have arrangements with Thailand and they indeed do get a Visa on arrival.

Maybe this is splitting hairs but isn't this what we are all reading these post to find out about?

[paulbrun]

I think I fall into a category mentioned above, where I work outside Thailand, but come back into the country every other month, for about 25 days. I stopped applying for visas, as it was time-consuming, costly, and unnecessary. I just come back in every time and get a 30 day stamp. I have lived, and on occasions worked, in Thailand for over 15 years. I married a Thai woman, have two children, several properties, and have invested a large amount of money in the country. I wish to remain living there, and being married to a Thai, and with children in school, I should be able to? If I have to start getting visas again, so be it. I qualify for a retirement visa, I think, being over 50 years old, and having sufficient capital in a Thai bank. What I don't need is to have hassles, when I return to Thailand on my return next month. I hope the smoke clears, and it becomes easier to understand exactly what the new regulations are...????

[lung]

The stamp in our passport is not a visa.

but this is the VOA

[wombat]

Thailand recently simplified the process for foreigners who want to become permanent residents. The amount of paperwork required has been slashed and the time involved reportedly cut from more than a year to about four months.

Will be very interested in hearing more about this.

i agree.

from what i had previously read,

this particular one was virtualy impossable and not worth the headache of applying.

[mjochim]

the 90 days is for VOA's which are permission to stay without an issued visa. For tourists with real visa's issued from a consulate abroad then its business as usual.

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the new rules for Tourist Visas yet. This comes from the Thai Immigration website:

Tourist Visa

• Nationals of 43 listed countries may enter the Kingdom of Thailand with a tourist visa, in accordance with the Ministry of Interior's regulations, for a maximum stay of 60 days for the purpose of tourism only.
  
• Other nationals may enter the Kingdom of Thailand with a tourist visa for 30 days.
  

Effective date: 1 October 2006

I read that "maximum stay of 60 days" to mean they are doing away with the double-, triple-, and multiple-entry tourist visas. Already, the Penang consulate has announced they will no longer issue any but the single-entry tourist visa and Kuala Lumpur states they will only issue a "limited number" of double-entries. (See thread here). I'm also starting to wonder if in-country immigration offices will still "automatically" issue the 30-day extensions on these...

It does look like the writing is on-the-wall for every farang staying in Thailand who isn't on a proper work permit or retirement visa. If you want to stay, look into the various Non-Immigrant visas to see if you can qualify. Or figure out how to manage the "stay for 90 days/leave for 90 days" routine (not exactly a cheap option!).

-------------------------

I, myself, have the last entry of my double-entry tourist visa expiring on October 1st. I am (happily) married to a Thai woman but my bank in the States requires me to come to their office to physically sign the SWIFT transfer request (not an option I can accomplish) for the Non-Imm (O) requirement. Thus, I'm looking at finding a different overseas bank to transfer funds into that will easily transfer funds into my Thai account. Taking too much time to do this and time is running out.

I've been attending a TEFL course since the end of August (I do have qualifications, etc. so don't flame me there) and we are gaining experience by teaching free English classes each weekday morning which I can't miss.

My options are:

1) make a visa run to Ranong before October 1st, get a 30-day stamp which gives me an extra month for money to arrive in Thai bank account - after which I'll go to Penang to get my Non-Imm (O)

2) make a visa run to Penang for a single-entry tourist visa which gives me two extra months for money to arrive

3) if money arrives before October 1st, go to Penang and get Non-Imm (O)

The problem with the Penang options is that I would miss two (maybe three) TEFL class sessions and teaching sessions. I'm worried that if I do the Ranong run that they won't allow me to follow that up with the Penang run because of the 30-day VOA coming back-to-back with my original tourist visa (complete with two extensions). Although I didn't work at all in those six months, will Immigration look at me with suspicion and decide to deny another visa?

Any thoughts or helpful hints would be appreciated. (I'm sorry for the slight hijacking of the thread; respondees can PM me rather than bringing us even more off-topic.)

[Gonzo the Face]

I would like to address this to those people who seem to feel that Thailand should be a bowl of cherries , just here for their plucking. "YOU ARE A GUEST IN THAILAND". You are here because you chose too be. But do not expect a special program tailored for each and every whinger out there because the law does not fit them. Thai law is here to protect Thailand not YOU specifically.

the whole thing is so absolutely ludicrous it defies description.

how many billion baht is the marketing department of thai government pouring into worldwide advertising and pr campaigns to ATTRACT more people to come to the kingdom, pretty please?

Yes they do !!! They are trying and do attract TOURISTS", and they make it much more easy to get into the country by having visa on arrival for TOURISTS. They also make it easy to re-enter for up to 90 days for TOURISTS. Those cheap charlie whingers posting here do not want to be tourists, they want to stay here for as long as they want, as in living here, not being a tourist. .... and because the law has turned a blind eye for some years, too many of the whingers have stayed and spent some money in bars getting drunk,, then you seem to feel this is your god given right.

Grow up, respect the law or get out its that simple.

Step back and think a moment..... is it as easy for a Thai to get into your home country, and can they do border runs in your country. I doubt it , then why should you expect it in someone's elses country. Other than spending money getting drunk and living cheap, what are you contributing to the good of the country???

their government maintains offices in every major country for the only purpose of attracting and enticing folks to come and spend some money.

This is correct , as does your home country I am sure. And then your country makes it much harder for them to get into that country.

Scizophrenic as can be, while marketing is spending billions of tax baht on trying to attract visitors, another department of the bureaucracy, called Immigration, is paranoically issuing new rules effectively discouraging people from coming and/or staying/investing in the Kingdom.

They offer Tourist Visa from or through and every Royal Thai Embassy, and/or Royal Thai Consulate in the world, but whingers think this is too much effort to put out , after all it will slow them down for spending their thousands of dollars, milking a system that has had a blind eye towards them before, and they have abused the system. Now its time to pay the piper.

Another beautiful example of the usual insanity of bureaucracies (by no means confined to Thailand)

Perhaps, but is your home country any different ??

Sooner or later even they will find out that visitors have choices...that there are many many nice countries to visit, live, invest and spend money.

Yes this is true, and if the Thai system of laws offends you, then take your own advice .... Find this other country, that will make you happy. This will not only make you whingers happy, it will make all the rest of us expats, who do live by and up to the law, happy.

Consider this. There are many types of visas available for those who wish to stay here. Push away from the bar and get on the internet one day and look into it. Yes it will take a little effort, but that is your responsibility to do it, if you wish to stay here and spend your vast sum of money.

If you fall into the cracks and there is no visa available to meet your particular needs, then guess what, maybe you don't belong here. You want to make an estimate of how many times each day Thai's or other foreigners are told that by embassy's and/or consulates around the world, when trying to get into a foreign country???

Get off your high horse and stop feeling so superior to the citizens of this country. Simple get the proper visa, get legal, or if that is too much for you or cannot otherwise be done..... get out, go somewhere where you can drink in peace.

Goodbye land of no more smiles.. I wish you well in your new chosen location and much happiness.

If you love Thailand and wish to spend time in this beautiful country, which you apparently do, as you are here, then live up to and respect its laws.

OMHO