Advice for driving BIG bikes in Thailand

[kannot]

Night riding: nice thing up north at night is that you can see oncoming headlights in the twisters much better than seeing cars from blind turns in daylight. So it's just a pleasure to ride late night. Early morning also avoids congestion especially existing Bangkok. We usually leave before 4 am.

For a big bike the bigger the better and make sure there are auxiliary lights to distinguish from slow scooters.

Use high beam during daylight hours.

When slowing down before u turn sections use dual flashers to warn cars behind you.

Tollways are still off limits for any two and three wheeled vehicles.

Riding in the outside fast lane is still illegal for motorcycles but the law is clearly an ass and therefore in this case better ignored in the interest of safety.

Dual flashers tell most Thais "im going straight on".....quite why they have to tell you this is beyond me

[Mr Wonderful]

Night riding: nice thing up north at night is that you can see oncoming headlights in the twisters much better than seeing cars from blind turns in daylight. So it's just a pleasure to ride late night. Early morning also avoids congestion especially existing Bangkok. We usually leave before 4 am.

For a big bike the bigger the better and make sure there are auxiliary lights to distinguish from slow scooters.

Use high beam during daylight hours.

When slowing down before u turn sections use dual flashers to warn cars behind you.

Tollways are still off limits for any two and three wheeled vehicles.

Riding in the outside fast lane is still illegal for motorcycles but the law is clearly an ass and therefore in this case better ignored in the interest of safety.

Dual flashers tell most Thais "im going straight on".....quite why they have to tell you this is beyond me

Should say warning u turning cars I am coming through. Flashing high beam works as well. Anything to be noticed. However. In situations where one approaches a traffic jam on a highway, dual flashers are even in Thailand an indicator of a slow down ahead and understood as such.

[CarolJadzia]

Covering the rear brake all the time.

Thank you Phaeton. Your reply is excellent. But please excuse me picking on small points. That's the job.

Covering the rear brake is great for slow speed riding. It can also be good when you don't want to loose traction with the front say in a corner.

It is being taught by Instructors as good practice for years, including me.

Only it is also now being suggested that it leads to some accidents.

With the way we look at reverse engineering accidents it has been found that if a rider is riding covering the back brake then if there is a sudden change - a surprise, especially in a corner, then the application of the brake is what has caused them to come off.

I have been searching for a recent video of a guy on a GSXR1100 learning the hard way but I think he has deleted it. He posted it to ask for advice.

I am certainly not suggesting that at your level of skill or experience there is any suggestion that you are doing anything wrong.

Just with the lack of proper training in Thailand I have seen many relying on the back brake and covering it while riding. Where we teach to take your foot off the pedal and to the side. A safety catch if you like. In normal braking circumstances you want to get the front brake on first anyway. The OP is looking for advice so I thought I would point this out.

[CarolJadzia]

Should say warning u turning cars I am coming through. Flashing high beam works as well. Anything to be noticed. However. In situations where one approaches a traffic jam on a highway, dual flashers are even in Thailand an indicator of a slow down ahead and understood as such.

You are right that flashing headlights is a recognised warning of approach in both Thailand and England.

The only problem is with it that many people also think it means you are flashing them to go.

[Mr Wonderful]

Should say warning u turning cars I am coming through. Flashing high beam works as well. Anything to be noticed. However. In situations where one approaches a traffic jam on a highway, dual flashers are even in Thailand an indicator of a slow down ahead and understood as such.

You are right that flashing headlights is a recognised warning of approach in both Thailand and England.

The only problem is with it that many people also think it means you are flashing them to go.

Nobody still alive in thailand will think that. Darwin takes care of those who do.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Mr Wonderful

[Mr Wonderful]

I almost never cover the rear brake on my BMW. Feathering the front brake is the thing to do as it will engage both front and rear in an emergency and a decent bike now has ESP as well as ABS

Get a bike with the best technology money can buy. It's not whimpy. It's sanity.

[CarolJadzia]

It has been mentioned about defensive riding and following the law.

Why is the law there?

I am not talking about the police officer who trumps up a charge to get tea money.

Why does the line down the middle of the road go from broken to solid? In Thailand the line of spirit houses along the side of the road should also be a clue.

So failing to stop at a junction because you may be rear ended is reason enough to ignore all the legal requirement that are there for your safety?

I know the score. I am certainly not suggesting that anyone should put themselves in danger just to prove they know the law.

I had a huge issue with using the motorcycle lanes on the main Phuket road. Undertaking vehicles that had a tendency to drift into my lane was not something I wanted to do and on many occasions I reverted to riding as I would in England, overtaking to the right. You can see me doing both in the videos I posted.

But I found I could do both most of the time. Stay within the law and safe.

Again if your worried about being rear ended then use observations and positioning to keep yourself safe. Use a traffic island as shelter. Position yourself in such a way that a vehicle behind you could pass you rather than hit you and if they did you would still be safe.

We all know how Thai's drive. We all know 26000, the majority of them being Motorcyclists, die every year on Thai Roads. Nothing else matters apart from not being in that statistic.

[CarolJadzia]

I almost never cover the rear brake on my BMW. Feathering the front brake is the thing to do as it will engage both front and rear in an emergency and a decent bike now has ESP as well as ABS

Get a bike with the best technology money can buy. It's not whimpy. It's sanity.

That's great, but

A/ I don't have the money.

B/ I don't like BMW's. I hate the way they insist you have to take your bike to a main agent to have the trip reset otherwise it starts reducing power.

C/ I hate linked braking systems as they remove the independence from me deciding which brake I want to use when.

ABS works well though. But your system is totally different to the way 98% of motorcycles in Thailand work. Great if you have ABS and ESP. No good for the rest of us.

[Mr Wonderful]

Really? We are talking about whether to ride or not to ride. If it's safe or not. And then we worry about money? A 700gs now is 400k. A used 650 around 300k. I don't know when BMW started anti slip as standard equipment. I do love my 1200GSA tho. Even the 1200GS can be had for under 600k nowadays.

But if I can extrapolate from your comment about being in the top 2 percent that would eliminate me as a possible fatality from 25,500 of the 26,000 annual cases in Thailand. The odds are improving.

What we have just learned is that it's not just because of the country we are in but of controllable factors such as helmet use, drinking, proper lights, good gear and equipment and sane driving style. Etc etc.

That's a lot better than empty fear mongering

[CarolJadzia]

Who is empty fear mongering?

Hands up who here can afford or who would want a BMW?

I don't know the bike sale stats for Thailand but the majority of the Thai Bikers I have met along with my friends in the Samu-i on Koh Samui ride motorcycles that do not have linked braking and esp.

It is the same balance as in England with about 10% of bikes at our weekly bike night of up to a thousand bikes being BMW's and not all of them having ABS

If this was all about safety we would all be driving 4 wheeled 'motorcycles' with Volvo on the front.

I respect that you are in a position and have a wish to ride a BMW. It is a good choice. They are reliable, well engineered and safe. Just I know most of my friends would not ride one out of choice.

So expecting everyone else to follow suit is just not going to happen.

I totally agree with you about the situation in Thailand. But you are proposing the same things as what have been proved to have limitations. You are depending on technology to keep you safe.

Very good technology that works, I totally agree. However that technology also has limitations.

1. Why hasn't passenger vehicle ABS reduced crashes as expected?

   No one knows for sure why ABS test performance has not translated into a substantial reduction in real-world crashes. A possible reason is that the average motorist rarely experiences total loss of vehicle control, which antilocks are designed to prevent. There also is evidence that many drivers in the early days of antilock brakes did not know how to use them effectively. A 1994 Institute survey of drivers with antilock-equipped cars found that more than 50 percent in North Carolina and 40 percent in Wisconsin incorrectly thought they should pump the brakes. 9
2. Is motorcycle ABS effective at reducing crashes?

   Yes. Results from recent studies by IIHS and HLDI compared crash rates for motorcycles equipped with optional ABS against the same models without the option. The rate of fatal crashes per 10,000 registered vehicle years was 31 percent lower for motorcycles equipped with optional ABS than for those same motorcycles without ABS. In crashes of all severities, the frequency at which insurance collision claims were filed was 20 percent lower for the ABS models. Based on these findings, IIHS and HLDI have petitioned the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to require manufacturers to equip all new motorcycles with this technology.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/crash-avoidance-technologies/qanda#antilock-brakes

ABS helps. But does not make you immune from accidents. I would happily have ABS on my Kawasaki, but would never change my Kawasaki for a BMW to get it.

I would never ride a bike with linked brakes out of choice. I like my independent control over each wheel.

[Mr Wonderful]

Who is empty fear mongering?

Hands up who here can afford or who would want a BMW?

I don't know the bike sale stats for Thailand but the majority of the Thai Bikers I have met along with my friends in the Samu-i on Koh Samui ride motorcycles that do not have linked braking and esp.

It is the same balance as in England with about 10% of bikes at our weekly bike night of up to a thousand bikes being BMW's and not all of them having ABS

If this was all about safety we would all be driving 4 wheeled 'motorcycles' with Volvo on the front.

I respect that you are in a position and have a wish to ride a BMW. It is a good choice. They are reliable, well engineered and safe. Just I know most of my friends would not ride one out of choice.

So expecting everyone else to follow suit is just not going to happen.

I totally agree with you about the situation in Thailand. But you are proposing the same things as what have been proved to have limitations. You are depending on technology to keep you safe.

Very good technology that works, I totally agree. However that technology also has limitations.

• Why hasn't passenger vehicle ABS reduced crashes as expected?

  No one knows for sure why ABS test performance has not translated into a substantial reduction in real-world crashes. A possible reason is that the average motorist rarely experiences total loss of vehicle control, which antilocks are designed to prevent. There also is evidence that many drivers in the early days of antilock brakes did not know how to use them effectively. A 1994 Institute survey of drivers with antilock-equipped cars found that more than 50 percent in North Carolina and 40 percent in Wisconsin incorrectly thought they should pump the brakes. 9

• Is motorcycle ABS effective at reducing crashes?

  Yes. Results from recent studies by IIHS and HLDI compared crash rates for motorcycles equipped with optional ABS against the same models without the option. The rate of fatal crashes per 10,000 registered vehicle years was 31 percent lower for motorcycles equipped with optional ABS than for those same motorcycles without ABS. In crashes of all severities, the frequency at which insurance collision claims were filed was 20 percent lower for the ABS models. Based on these findings, IIHS and HLDI have petitioned the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to require manufacturers to equip all new motorcycles with this technology.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/crash-avoidance-technologies/qanda#antilock-brakes

ABS helps. But does not make you immune from accidents. I would happily have ABS on my Kawasaki, but would never change my Kawasaki for a BMW to get it.

I would never ride a bike with linked brakes out of choice. I like my independent control over each wheel.

People used to say the same thing about ABS. "wouldn't ride a bike with stupid ABS". There is something about bikers who think it's cool to die?

I don't ride BMW or of vanity. I ride them because they are the safest bikes around. I would never buy a Honda Civic either.

[CarolJadzia]

People used to say the same thing about ABS. "wouldn't ride a bike with stupid ABS". There is something about bikers who think it's cool to die?

I don't ride BMW or of vanity. I ride them because they are the safest bikes around. I would never buy a Honda Civic either.

Yes I know. We have been having this same discussion since before ABS was introduced.

I have worked and ridden with people who are on both sides of the fence.

It is probably for the same reason you would not buy a Honda civic as I would not buy a BMW.

But I am not faulting your choice of bike. This is all about what we do not telling others they are wrong especially regarding the choice of what we ride.

It is a good choice if you like them.

But not for me and the majority of riders feel the same way. That is the way it is.

[Mr Wonderful]

People used to say the same thing about ABS. "wouldn't ride a bike with stupid ABS". There is something about bikers who think it's cool to die?

I don't ride BMW or of vanity. I ride them because they are the safest bikes around. I would never buy a Honda Civic either.

Yes I know. We have been having this same discussion since before ABS was introduced.

I have worked and ridden with people who are on both sides of the fence.

It is probably for the same reason you would not buy a Honda civic as I would not buy a BMW.

But I am not faulting your choice of bike. This is all about what we do not telling others they are wrong especially regarding the choice of what we ride.

It is a good choice if you like them.

But not for me and the majority of riders feel the same way. That is the way it is.

My last comment on this is. I would be dead at least twice over if I had been on anything other than a BMW. Recovered from a high speed wobble and survived an emergency stop from 200 km/h avoiding a pickup truck crossing a divided highway (yup! TIT). Not to mention whatever near misses improbably didn't even notice.

[andreandre]

People used to say the same thing about ABS. "wouldn't ride a bike with stupid ABS". There is something about bikers who think it's cool to die?

I don't ride BMW or of vanity. I ride them because they are the safest bikes around. I would never buy a Honda Civic either.

Yes I know. We have been having this same discussion since before ABS was introduced.

I have worked and ridden with people who are on both sides of the fence.

It is probably for the same reason you would not buy a Honda civic as I would not buy a BMW.

But I am not faulting your choice of bike. This is all about what we do not telling others they are wrong especially regarding the choice of what we ride.

It is a good choice if you like them.

But not for me and the majority of riders feel the same way. That is the way it is.

My last comment on this is. I would be dead at least twice over if I had been on anything other than a BMW. Recovered from a high speed wobble and survived an emergency stop from 200 km/h avoiding a pickup truck crossing a divided highway (yup! TIT). Not to mention whatever near misses improbably didn't even notice.

[CarolJadzia]

Collision avoidance skills tend to focus on braking and swerving in response to a threat, yet it is difficult to show that these skills actually have the desired effect. The Hurt study reported that the great majority of riders in 900 crashes showed very poor avoidance skills. About one-third took no evasive action at all. Most of those who did take evasive action either chose the wrong action or executed their chosen action poorly, or both. Rider training had no effect on collision avoidance performance. Similar findings were reported in Thailand, where only one rider had formal training. Half of all Thai riders took no evasive action and 64% of those who did failed to choose the best action, while 60% failed to execute properly whatever evasive action they did choose. However, Thai riders were far less likely to lose control in a braking slide-out than riders in Los Angeles (20% vs. 40%). This suggests that, for some reason, Thai riders did a better job of collision avoidance than their American counterparts.

http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/imsc2006/Ouellet-Rider_Training_and_Evasive_Action_in_Thailand_and_LA-Paper.pdf

[garryjohns]

People used to say the same thing about ABS. "wouldn't ride a bike with stupid ABS". There is something about bikers who think it's cool to die?

I don't ride BMW or of vanity. I ride them because they are the safest bikes around. I would never buy a Honda Civic either.

Yes I know. We have been having this same discussion since before ABS was introduced.

I have worked and ridden with people who are on both sides of the fence.

It is probably for the same reason you would not buy a Honda civic as I would not buy a BMW.

But I am not faulting your choice of bike. This is all about what we do not telling others they are wrong especially regarding the choice of what we ride.

It is a good choice if you like them.

But not for me and the majority of riders feel the same way. That is the way it is.

My last comment on this is. I would be dead at least twice over if I had been on anything other than a BMW. Recovered from a high speed wobble and survived an emergency stop from 200 km/h avoiding a pickup truck crossing a divided highway (yup! TIT). Not to mention whatever near misses improbably didn't even notice.

I can't see where BMW could have had any input as in; stopped you being dead at least twice over [ is that even possible?]

Unless maybe BMW is a collection of amulets...[TIT after all]

[CarolJadzia]

Anybody want to know about Tyres?

http://www.dre.vanderbilt.edu/~aky/Bikes/Important%20Docs/Getting%20to%20Grips%20with%20Tyres.pdf

[CarolJadzia]

As I have spent many years having to keep up to date with the British Traffic Laws as there is always someone who wants to fire a silly question like "Where will you find blue cat's Eyes on a motorway" or what does the above sign mean? I have spent some time looking at the Thai Highway code. Easy to convert most of it as it's very similar to the British Highway code in many aspects.

While looking for information I can across a Thai Visa thread about a question in the driving test : The question is "At an uncontrolled intersection, (see diagram) when 2 similar vehicles arrive at a cross road intersection at the same time and same speed, both going straight ahead, who should go first? "

1) A) Blue car first (Give way to the Right) OR B ) Red car first Give way to the left OR C) don't know D) I don't understand the question E) I am confused

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/736076-highway-code-misunderstood-in-english/

Now. I automatically say give way to the right. After all both Thailand and England drive on the left. That means you give way to the right for the same reasons of driver field-of-view and safety distance.

Seems many people however think you should give way to the left.

So which is it?

Answers on a postcard please?

Well I think I can do better than that.

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0140_5.pdf

"If there is no traffic signal or sign installed at a circle the traffic should give way to the right."

Great, so I can now go pushing through junctions shouting "I have the right of way!"

Not going to live long am I?

Think the thing that worries me is that so many people can get confused by such a basic question. Even it would seem do the staff at the testing centre. What hope has anyone else got?

In England I have incentives to be a good girl and not have an accident when I ride. It's called Insurance No Claims Discount (NCD).

On a motorcycle I have the maximum allowable discount of 7 years NCD.

Only I don't just teach. I have sometimes done driving work to make money, training is not always the best way to keep full time employment and pay the heating bill through British Winters.

Last job was tracking down lost gas and electricity meters and being a Health and Safety Rep. Meant I was driving around in a tin can company vehicle. Now I had two accidents. One was a head on in a lane and the other was a car on a roundabout left lane suddenly decided to go right around the roundabout and hit me in the side.

1st was not my fault. I had stopped and he drove into me.

2nd they said it was knock for knock. Even though I put forward a clear case with evidence from the highway code and photographs, they said they were not prepared to fight it as it was on a roundabout and therefore "a difficult case".

So I learned today when I renewed my motorcycle insurance that I am no longer being penalised for an accident I had 3 years ago in a company car. Yippee!

That's not the point.

Thing is neither of the above accidents would have happened if I had been riding me bike.

In the first one I saw the roof of the van speeding down the high hedged road from about a mile away. On the bike I would have waited in the lay-by just before the blind bend in a single width lane for a little longer. As it was in my safety box I thought I would slowly proceed, I came round the corner to find him ahead. I stopped, he locked everything and slid straight into me.

Second one, on a 2 lane roundabout going right, yes the traffic in the left hand lane should be leaving at the same exit as me. Not going to chance one going into me though. I will be aligned with a gap. Giving enough room to be in front or behind them. Not in danger alongside them.

I am now applying the same procedures to driving my car.

So back to the question. What would I do?

I would try to arrive at the junction either ahead of the others or after they had sorted themselves out.

If that is not possible then I know I can out accelerate anything that is stopped to my right so I will take the advantage.

However I will give way to the right if something is already moving.

I will be very cautious of anything to the left and assume he may pull out and there is not much of a safe distance to deal with it.

So I will go, but be very prepared to stop if he goes until i'm clear.

No surprise - no accident.

[Keesters]

In 30 years of scooter riding here I have NEVER made any turns in the way you show and have NEVER been rammed from behind. IMO turns as you describe are what cause accidents not avoid them.

Oh fer GAWDSSSSSSSSSSSS sake I was asking if this is how people on BIG bikes drive IN THAILAND, this is how THAIS (NOTE THAI S)scooter drivers do it, I DONT think its safe BUT if Thai car drivers expect this and NOT the way I would do in the UK (right centre of road).

YOU might not drive like this BUT MANY THAIS do..........I think its crap BUT should I be following that way or not was my question, lets say I pull into the middle of the road and then get rear ended as Mr Thai expected me to NEVER do this.

Your language is not so polite. Why would BIG bike and Scooter be any different? The law for both is the same. Follow the law and you'll not go far wrong. It is those that don't follow the law that end up in trouble/injured/dead. I don't care what any driver expects me to do especially those that expect me not to follow the law and good driving sense. I'll back off until it is safe for me to proceed in a lawful fashion.

"follow the law" Ok so when \I get to an ISLAND I will stop for vehicles on the right which is correct then Mr SOMCHAI will drive right into the back of me as he thinks people entering the island have the right of way. Following the law here you will end up DEAD for sure you have to try and do what Somchai expects or is the relative norm, if Somchai doesn't think I will stop in the middle of the road to turn right as hes never seen it before he could kill me but "I" don't know if this is how Big bikes turn here I have only seen scotters doing what I illustrated in the diagrams, I have not ventured onto any main highway here on my scooter as I have no need, its just to run to the local shops an back and I don't see many big bikes on the road so this is why Im asking about BIG bikes

Big bike and scooter riding IS very different big bikes don't cower at the edge of the road and as one person mentioned I think BIG bikes can go on the tollways although this was going to be one of my questions. If you don't se Thais driving how is pictured in my photo of them doing turns etc you must have been driving round with blinkers on, this IS normal practice for them

Do YOU have a big bike? I don't need to know if you drive a scooter I just need to know "how" you drive a big bike , as they are much faster they will generally I reckon be in with the cars on most roads whereas scooters wont so there is a difference, ive never seen a big bike driving down the small hard shoulder.

Yes follow the law. 30 years I've done that and I'm still alive and never rear ended. And that includes a roundabout at least once a week stopping, as the law demands, to give right of way to vehicles on the circle. I find your "gotta do it the Thai way or I'm dead" very pathetic and a feeble excuse to break the law. The Thais know what the laws are they just don't follow them a lot of the time. As a scooter rider I do not cower at the edge of the road. I ride left of center of my lane. I don't have a big bike but if I did I'd drive it the same way, the legal way, as I drive my scooter. Or to put it another way I drive my scooter just the same as I would drive a big bike. There is no difference except in engine capacity. And even though a big bike may be capable of higher speeds I on many occasions am overtaking cars while doing 80kph. I do not drive on the hard shoulder as it is dangerous, often with parts of it suddenly missing, holes, sand, grit, tin cans, glass bottles, road kill etc.

[CarolJadzia]

Re my post on junctions above.

Before someone mentions it I forgot. I would also give way to big things if they are close enough to be a threat. Not because it's legal but because they are going to go anyway.

[CarolJadzia]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/836772-elderly-german-biker-seriously-injured-in-pattaya-road-crash/?p=9567927

Not sure about 'Biker'. But if the story is true and he swung into a U-turn without looking and dressed like that with no helmet.

Is that just attempted suicide?

[kannot]

As I have spent many years having to keep up to date with the British Traffic Laws as there is always someone who wants to fire a silly question like "Where will you find blue cat's Eyes on a motorway" or what does the above sign mean? I have spent some time looking at the Thai Highway code. Easy to convert most of it as it's very similar to the British Highway code in many aspects.

While looking for information I can across a Thai Visa thread about a question in the driving test : The question is "At an uncontrolled intersection, (see diagram) when 2 similar vehicles arrive at a cross road intersection at the same time and same speed, both going straight ahead, who should go first? "

1) A) Blue car first (Give way to the Right) OR B ) Red car first Give way to the left OR C) don't know D) I don't understand the question E) I am confused

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/736076-highway-code-misunderstood-in-english/

Now. I automatically say give way to the right. After all both Thailand and England drive on the left. That means you give way to the right for the same reasons of driver field-of-view and safety distance.

Seems many people however think you should give way to the left.

So which is it?

Answers on a postcard please?

Well I think I can do better than that.

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0140_5.pdf

"If there is no traffic signal or sign installed at a circle the traffic should give way to the right."

Great, so I can now go pushing through junctions shouting "I have the right of way!"

Not going to live long am I?

Think the thing that worries me is that so many people can get confused by such a basic question. Even it would seem do the staff at the testing centre. What hope has anyone else got?

In England I have incentives to be a good girl and not have an accident when I ride. It's called Insurance No Claims Discount (NCD).

On a motorcycle I have the maximum allowable discount of 7 years NCD.

Only I don't just teach. I have sometimes done driving work to make money, training is not always the best way to keep full time employment and pay the heating bill through British Winters.

Last job was tracking down lost gas and electricity meters and being a Health and Safety Rep. Meant I was driving around in a tin can company vehicle. Now I had two accidents. One was a head on in a lane and the other was a car on a roundabout left lane suddenly decided to go right around the roundabout and hit me in the side.

1st was not my fault. I had stopped and he drove into me.

2nd they said it was knock for knock. Even though I put forward a clear case with evidence from the highway code and photographs, they said they were not prepared to fight it as it was on a roundabout and therefore "a difficult case".

So I learned today when I renewed my motorcycle insurance that I am no longer being penalised for an accident I had 3 years ago in a company car. Yippee!

That's not the point.

Thing is neither of the above accidents would have happened if I had been riding me bike.

In the first one I saw the roof of the van speeding down the high hedged road from about a mile away. On the bike I would have waited in the lay-by just before the blind bend in a single width lane for a little longer. As it was in my safety box I thought I would slowly proceed, I came round the corner to find him ahead. I stopped, he locked everything and slid straight into me.

Second one, on a 2 lane roundabout going right, yes the traffic in the left hand lane should be leaving at the same exit as me. Not going to chance one going into me though. I will be aligned with a gap. Giving enough room to be in front or behind them. Not in danger alongside them.

I am now applying the same procedures to driving my car.

So back to the question. What would I do?

I would try to arrive at the junction either ahead of the others or after they had sorted themselves out.

If that is not possible then I know I can out accelerate anything that is stopped to my right so I will take the advantage.

However I will give way to the right if something is already moving.

I will be very cautious of anything to the left and assume he may pull out and there is not much of a safe distance to deal with it.

So I will go, but be very prepared to stop if he goes until i'm clear.

No surprise - no accident.

My Dad had a head on collison down the lanes and the insurance said knock for knock, he took it to court ( the insurance wouldnt) and WON. Kept his no claims discount, dumped the insurance company

[kannot]

"follow the law" Ok so when \I get to an ISLAND I will stop for vehicles on the right which is correct then Mr SOMCHAI will drive right into the back of me as he thinks people entering the island have the right of way. Following the law here you will end up DEAD for sure you have to try and do what Somchai expects or is the relative norm, if Somchai doesn't think I will stop in the middle of the road to turn right as hes never seen it before he could kill me but "I" don't know if this is how Big bikes turn here I have only seen scotters doing what I illustrated in the diagrams, I have not ventured onto any main highway here on my scooter as I have no need, its just to run to the local shops an back and I don't see many big bikes on the road so this is why Im asking about BIG bikes

In 30 years of scooter riding here I have NEVER made any turns in the way you show and have NEVER been rammed from behind. IMO turns as you describe are what cause accidents not avoid them.

Oh fer GAWDSSSSSSSSSSSS sake I was asking if this is how people on BIG bikes drive IN THAILAND, this is how THAIS (NOTE THAI S)scooter drivers do it, I DONT think its safe BUT if Thai car drivers expect this and NOT the way I would do in the UK (right centre of road).

YOU might not drive like this BUT MANY THAIS do..........I think its crap BUT should I be following that way or not was my question, lets say I pull into the middle of the road and then get rear ended as Mr Thai expected me to NEVER do this.

Your language is not so polite. Why would BIG bike and Scooter be any different? The law for both is the same. Follow the law and you'll not go far wrong. It is those that don't follow the law that end up in trouble/injured/dead. I don't care what any driver expects me to do especially those that expect me not to follow the law and good driving sense. I'll back off until it is safe for me to proceed in a lawful fashion.

Big bike and scooter riding IS very different big bikes don't cower at the edge of the road and as one person mentioned I think BIG bikes can go on the tollways although this was going to be one of my questions. If you don't se Thais driving how is pictured in my photo of them doing turns etc you must have been driving round with blinkers on, this IS normal practice for them

Do YOU have a big bike? I don't need to know if you drive a scooter I just need to know "how" you drive a big bike , as they are much faster they will generally I reckon be in with the cars on most roads whereas scooters wont so there is a difference, ive never seen a big bike driving down the small hard shoulder.

Yes follow the law. 30 years I've done that and I'm still alive and never rear ended. And that includes a roundabout at least once a week stopping, as the law demands, to give right of way to vehicles on the circle. I find your "gotta do it the Thai way or I'm dead" very pathetic and a feeble excuse to break the law. The Thais know what the laws are they just don't follow them a lot of the time. As a scooter rider I do not cower at the edge of the road. I ride left of center of my lane. I don't have a big bike but if I did I'd drive it the same way, the legal way, as I drive my scooter. Or to put it another way I drive my scooter just the same as I would drive a big bike. There is no difference except in engine capacity. And even though a big bike may be capable of higher speeds I on many occasions am overtaking cars while doing 80kph. I do not drive on the hard shoulder as it is dangerous, often with parts of it suddenly missing, holes, sand, grit, tin cans, glass bottles, road kill etc.

Good for you, but does MR THAI driver expect you to do that? most scooters are on the left here in Pranburi. The Roundabout.......Thais simply do not KNOW the right of way, happily let you see a roundabout by me, its a bunch of clueless idiots and if I assume they are going to stop Im sure they wont as they simply dont know.

I am NOT attempting to break the law Im attempting to stay alive in Thailand and if that means I have to break their rules which they do and Mr Thai expects me to stop or not stop in certain areas right or wrong thats what Ill have to do.

I never see BIG bikes riding in at the " bike lane " you must be the only scooter who drives left of the centre for miles around,whether its right or wrong, legal or illegal I have to go with the flow to stay alive

Edited June 30, 2015 by kannot

[CarolJadzia]

My Dad had a head on collison down the lanes and the insurance said knock for knock, he took it to court ( the insurance wouldnt) and WON. Kept his no claims discount, dumped the insurance company

Yes, I wish I could have with the roundabout one. Could not afford to fight it myself and was awkward as company vehicle and Insurance.

Never any winners after an accident. Even if you get a pay out you still have to go through a load of inconvenience.

I have since got rid of the Job.

[CarolJadzia]

This guy has been kind enough to share what we call a 'near miss'.

Just a second

[andreandre]

This guy has been kind enough to share what we call a 'near miss'.

Just a second

Yes a near miss..but totally unnecessarily IMO , .he had two options available.....one;the best one...he had more than enough time and opportunity to simply close the throttle and a little braking and slip in behind the car he was going to overtake and two,seeing as he didn't take option one because he was fixated on overtaking he could easily/should have have gone full throttle ,maybe even downshifted and got out of the danger zone a lot quicker.He actually closed throttle when he was nearing the truck.

Hope he learnt from it....

Edited July 1, 2015 by andreandre

[CarolJadzia]

Yes a near miss..but totally unnecessarily IMO , .he had two options available.....one;the best one...he had more than enough time and opportunity to simply close the throttle and a little braking and slip in behind the car he was going to overtake and two,seeing as he didn't take option one because he was fixated on overtaking he could easily/should have have gone full throttle ,maybe even downshifted and got out of the danger zone a lot quicker.He actually closed throttle when he was nearing the truck.

Hope he learnt from it....

I don't think he was ever really in danger. I have had far closer 'near misses' than that. I think the point he is trying to make is about missing the oncoming vehicle when in that second of commitment the road ahead looked clear.

Also welcome to a debate that is currently going on between some of the people from the Institute of Advanced Drivers, The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and other advanced instructors against others like my friends from 'No Surprise no Accident' and myself. It all regards a simple little line that has been used to fault advanced riders when being assessed. The line is "You are expected to make progress".

Predictably, this week’s Post of the Week on the thorny topic of ‘progress’ kicked off a hot debate. In the ‘system’ corner are the representatives of the IAM and RoSPA who say I’m quoting out of context or not describing what actually happens in real life on advanced training, and that I’m not in fact doing anything different. In the ‘survival skills’ corner is me, with experience with many different representatives of both organisations plus the numerous individuals who found they were square pegs in round holes when they personally undertook training.

You can read the full article here - https://survivalskills.wordpress.com/2015/06/29/facebook-digest-22-to-28-june-2015/

You are also welcome to come over the the 'Survival Skills' Page on Facebook and read the debate there.

It has basically been suggested that as Advanced Riders have an edge with their advanced riding skills they should use that edge to take advantage and 'make progress' whenever possible.

This leads people like the guy in the video to always be looking for the opportunity to overtake. Not saying there is anything wrong with that. But we think there is an issue with the mindset that creates.

It’s interesting that whilst the word ‘progress’ does not actually appear in the INDEX of ‘Motorcycle Roadcraft’ or the IAM books, it does appear in the text exploring the idea that riding a motorcycle allows us to get from A to B faster than we could manage if we were driving another vehicle. For example, the 1996 book ‘How to pass your Advanced Motorcycling Test’ says in a section entitled “The Motorcyclist’s Advantage”:

“One of the great benefits of motorcycling is that you can make quicker journeys than other traffic over congested roads. In the right circumstances you can pass long rows of slow-moving vehicles on busy trunk roads, or move quietly to the front of any queue at traffic lights or junctions. If the road is wide enough, it is even possible to overtake when there is a solid line because you do not need to cross it. All these things allow you to make better progress than a car driver in the UK.”

Given that particular statement nearly 20 years ago, it’s not hard to see how ‘progress’ has become part of the culture of advanced riding. I found this definition of advanced riding on the internet from a motorcycle training school:

“…whilst having sympathy toward the machine, empathy with other road-users, the law and the environment we should enable maximum progress with maximum safety levels at all times”.

And it’s not just bikes, it’s found in car driving too. See what the training manager of the Driving Instructors’ Association (DIA) DIAmond advanced driving scheme had to say on overtaking in the DSA’s ‘Despatch’ magazine in March 06:

“Encouraging drivers to constantly look for safe opportunities to overtake is healthy. Constantly asking yourself “Is it safe, legal and necessary?” promotes good forward planning and even better observation.”

It has also been used to argue the point. "Well I was only making progress officer" ;-)

But the biggest thing that has annoyed me is that it has been used to fault someones riding abilities. The choice to not overtake in a particular situation being used to fault someones standard of riding. I know, it was used to find fault with me on an assessed ride 25 years ago. It was also mentioned by a Police Advanced rider that his standard had been knocked down from ROSPA Gold standard to Silver because in the assessors opinion the rider had missed an opportunity to overtake.

Why? Well, let’s start by saying outright there is no such thing as a ‘safe’ overtake – only a less risky one. Ask yourself what happens when we make a judgement or observation mistake when we’re only looking for reasons we SHOULD overtake. If we get it wrong when our approach is “I should overtake unless I see it’s too dangerous”, if our error turns out to be that in fact it was too dangerous, then we’re only likely to discover that when we’re already committed into the overtake. Not a great time to discover it’s about to go pear-shaped.

I am happy to talk more about this. Have a read of the article if you want to learn more.

[Keesters]

"follow the law" Ok so when \I get to an ISLAND I will stop for vehicles on the right which is correct then Mr SOMCHAI will drive right into the back of me as he thinks people entering the island have the right of way. Following the law here you will end up DEAD for sure you have to try and do what Somchai expects or is the relative norm, if Somchai doesn't think I will stop in the middle of the road to turn right as hes never seen it before he could kill me but "I" don't know if this is how Big bikes turn here I have only seen scotters doing what I illustrated in the diagrams, I have not ventured onto any main highway here on my scooter as I have no need, its just to run to the local shops an back and I don't see many big bikes on the road so this is why Im asking about BIG bikes

Oh fer GAWDSSSSSSSSSSSS sake I was asking if this is how people on BIG bikes drive IN THAILAND, this is how THAIS (NOTE THAI S)scooter drivers do it, I DONT think its safe BUT if Thai car drivers expect this and NOT the way I would do in the UK (right centre of road).

YOU might not drive like this BUT MANY THAIS do..........I think its crap BUT should I be following that way or not was my question, lets say I pull into the middle of the road and then get rear ended as Mr Thai expected me to NEVER do this.

Your language is not so polite. Why would BIG bike and Scooter be any different? The law for both is the same. Follow the law and you'll not go far wrong. It is those that don't follow the law that end up in trouble/injured/dead. I don't care what any driver expects me to do especially those that expect me not to follow the law and good driving sense. I'll back off until it is safe for me to proceed in a lawful fashion.

Big bike and scooter riding IS very different big bikes don't cower at the edge of the road and as one person mentioned I think BIG bikes can go on the tollways although this was going to be one of my questions. If you don't se Thais driving how is pictured in my photo of them doing turns etc you must have been driving round with blinkers on, this IS normal practice for them

Do YOU have a big bike? I don't need to know if you drive a scooter I just need to know "how" you drive a big bike , as they are much faster they will generally I reckon be in with the cars on most roads whereas scooters wont so there is a difference, ive never seen a big bike driving down the small hard shoulder.

Yes follow the law. 30 years I've done that and I'm still alive and never rear ended. And that includes a roundabout at least once a week stopping, as the law demands, to give right of way to vehicles on the circle. I find your "gotta do it the Thai way or I'm dead" very pathetic and a feeble excuse to break the law. The Thais know what the laws are they just don't follow them a lot of the time. As a scooter rider I do not cower at the edge of the road. I ride left of center of my lane. I don't have a big bike but if I did I'd drive it the same way, the legal way, as I drive my scooter. Or to put it another way I drive my scooter just the same as I would drive a big bike. There is no difference except in engine capacity. And even though a big bike may be capable of higher speeds I on many occasions am overtaking cars while doing 80kph. I do not drive on the hard shoulder as it is dangerous, often with parts of it suddenly missing, holes, sand, grit, tin cans, glass bottles, road kill etc.

Good for you, but does MR THAI driver expect you to do that? most scooters are on the left here in Pranburi. The Roundabout.......Thais simply do not KNOW the right of way, happily let you see a roundabout by me, its a bunch of clueless idiots and if I assume they are going to stop Im sure they wont as they simply dont know.

I am NOT attempting to break the law Im attempting to stay alive in Thailand and if that means I have to break their rules which they do and Mr Thai expects me to stop or not stop in certain areas right or wrong thats what Ill have to do.

I never see BIG bikes riding in at the " bike lane " you must be the only scooter who drives left of the centre for miles around,whether its right or wrong, legal or illegal I have to go with the flow to stay alive

Yes they must because not one of them has rammed me from behind. Thais do know the right of way. It is as I said before they choose to ignore it some/most of the time. You can, and should, follow the law on driving. Doing so will not get you killed or injured any more than not doing so. You sound very much like all those Farangs I've come across who won't stop at a pedestrian crossing when they know they should. Feeble excuses "I'll get rammed from behind" are given when in reality it is the same excuse that the Thais have "I can get away with it so why not". Best of luck in your lawless driving, but I'll not be visiting you in hospital.

[kannot]

"follow the law" Ok so when \I get to an ISLAND I will stop for vehicles on the right which is correct then Mr SOMCHAI will drive right into the back of me as he thinks people entering the island have the right of way. Following the law here you will end up DEAD for sure you have to try and do what Somchai expects or is the relative norm, if Somchai doesn't think I will stop in the middle of the road to turn right as hes never seen it before he could kill me but "I" don't know if this is how Big bikes turn here I have only seen scotters doing what I illustrated in the diagrams, I have not ventured onto any main highway here on my scooter as I have no need, its just to run to the local shops an back and I don't see many big bikes on the road so this is why Im asking about BIG bikes

Oh fer GAWDSSSSSSSSSSSS sake I was asking if this is how people on BIG bikes drive IN THAILAND, this is how THAIS (NOTE THAI S)scooter drivers do it, I DONT think its safe BUT if Thai car drivers expect this and NOT the way I would do in the UK (right centre of road).

YOU might not drive like this BUT MANY THAIS do..........I think its crap BUT should I be following that way or not was my question, lets say I pull into the middle of the road and then get rear ended as Mr Thai expected me to NEVER do this.

Your language is not so polite. Why would BIG bike and Scooter be any different? The law for both is the same. Follow the law and you'll not go far wrong. It is those that don't follow the law that end up in trouble/injured/dead. I don't care what any driver expects me to do especially those that expect me not to follow the law and good driving sense. I'll back off until it is safe for me to proceed in a lawful fashion.

Big bike and scooter riding IS very different big bikes don't cower at the edge of the road and as one person mentioned I think BIG bikes can go on the tollways although this was going to be one of my questions. If you don't se Thais driving how is pictured in my photo of them doing turns etc you must have been driving round with blinkers on, this IS normal practice for them

Do YOU have a big bike? I don't need to know if you drive a scooter I just need to know "how" you drive a big bike , as they are much faster they will generally I reckon be in with the cars on most roads whereas scooters wont so there is a difference, ive never seen a big bike driving down the small hard shoulder.

Yes follow the law. 30 years I've done that and I'm still alive and never rear ended. And that includes a roundabout at least once a week stopping, as the law demands, to give right of way to vehicles on the circle. I find your "gotta do it the Thai way or I'm dead" very pathetic and a feeble excuse to break the law. The Thais know what the laws are they just don't follow them a lot of the time. As a scooter rider I do not cower at the edge of the road. I ride left of center of my lane. I don't have a big bike but if I did I'd drive it the same way, the legal way, as I drive my scooter. Or to put it another way I drive my scooter just the same as I would drive a big bike. There is no difference except in engine capacity. And even though a big bike may be capable of higher speeds I on many occasions am overtaking cars while doing 80kph. I do not drive on the hard shoulder as it is dangerous, often with parts of it suddenly missing, holes, sand, grit, tin cans, glass bottles, road kill etc.

Good for you, but does MR THAI driver expect you to do that? most scooters are on the left here in Pranburi. The Roundabout.......Thais simply do not KNOW the right of way, happily let you see a roundabout by me, its a bunch of clueless idiots and if I assume they are going to stop Im sure they wont as they simply dont know.

I am NOT attempting to break the law Im attempting to stay alive in Thailand and if that means I have to break their rules which they do and Mr Thai expects me to stop or not stop in certain areas right or wrong thats what Ill have to do.

I never see BIG bikes riding in at the " bike lane " you must be the only scooter who drives left of the centre for miles around,whether its right or wrong, legal or illegal I have to go with the flow to stay alive

Yes they must because not one of them has rammed me from behind. Thais do know the right of way. It is as I said before they choose to ignore it some/most of the time. You can, and should, follow the law on driving. Doing so will not get you killed or injured any more than not doing so. You sound very much like all those Farangs I've come across who won't stop at a pedestrian crossing when they know they should. Feeble excuses "I'll get rammed from behind" are given when in reality it is the same excuse that the Thais have "I can get away with it so why not". Best of luck in your lawless driving, but I'll not be visiting you in hospital.

Im devastated

[andreandre]

Yes a near miss..but totally unnecessarily IMO , .he had two options available.....one;the best one...he had more than enough time and opportunity to simply close the throttle and a little braking and slip in behind the car he was going to overtake and two,seeing as he didn't take option one because he was fixated on overtaking he could easily/should have have gone full throttle ,maybe even downshifted and got out of the danger zone a lot quicker.He actually closed throttle when he was nearing the truck.

Hope he learnt from it....

I don't think he was ever really in danger. I have had far closer 'near misses' than that. I think the point he is trying to make is about missing the oncoming vehicle when in that second of commitment the road ahead looked clear.

Also welcome to a debate that is currently going on between some of the people from the Institute of Advanced Drivers, The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and other advanced instructors against others like my friends from 'No Surprise no Accident' and myself. It all regards a simple little line that has been used to fault advanced riders when being assessed. The line is "You are expected to make progress".

I have had far closer 'near misses' than that. I think the point he is trying to make is about missing the oncoming vehicle when in that second of commitment the road ahead looked clear.

I have also had far closer 'near misses than that' but not because i caused them as he did here.I've had on 3 occassions my mirror smashed off, thats about as close as you can get to not being a near miss and instead being an impact IMO. No big deal...shit happens when you ride a lot..thats part of the risk of biking.

Yes, the point he was possibly trying to make was the second of commitment, [after the fact] but you have to admit surely that he had the two options i posted above were available to reduce the chance of a much more serious incident .He did nothing positive at all to attempt to get out of the situation he alone created.In fact, if the truck hadn't pulled left to avoid him, he would have been in a bad crash for sure.

I have seen so many riders/drivers over the years do the same thing when they have miscalculated an overtake..they press on regardless as this guy did and often pay the big price for it.