Panic About Nothing?

[chuckygobyebye]

This evening there was an informal meeting/unofficial press conference held at a small cafe on Samsen Road with an Interpol representative and a high ranking secretary from Immigration (who was responsible for drafting much of this policy) concerning the issue that has been eating everyone alive over the last few days.

The immigration rep (whose duties among other things include maintaining the "balcklist" of "undesirables") assured the small group of journos there that things aren't changing all that much. Basically, according to him and the interpol chap, the prime reason for the changes is because with the expemption stamp, immigration and other authorities are unable to do background checks easily against the blacklist (or further investigations with other countries), and thereby keep out known murderers, terrorists, fugitives, and what have you.

So, they said in no uncertain terms that it is possible to continue to stay for years on end as long as you limit your exemption stamps (the 30 day "visa on arrival" border runs), to three, and then go to the consulate in any other country and obtain a two-month tourist visa and return (they said that the consuls are all being instructed to issue these visas -- with the blacklist check). This can be extended at immigration for an extra 30 days and then you can either go and get another one (yes, back to back), or do three more border runs and then another tourist visa. This being the case, border runners will only have to do a maximum of 8 departures a year, but as few as four, if they opt for four back-to-back tourist visas. So if anything, it is more convenient for the long-term stayer, and the authorities get to reduce the amount of true scum (as in criminals, not backpackers and other people that some on this forum have arbitrarily deemed distasteful individuals)

I suspect this will post be shouted down and ridiculed because so much has gone before this and so many have staked their forum name on their theory, but the reps were legit and they were very clear. Maybe the system will break down after a few months, who knows, but this is meant to be the current state of affairs.

So the good news is: It's business as usual folks. Now isn't everyone sorry they blew heart valves over this?

[LoveDaBlues]

From the beginning I've thought it wouldn't be a REAL problem for anyone except the low-level vermin that are selling drugs, etc. These are the targeted people. They should be.

They have NO DESIRE to run off money.....as we all know money rules in Thailand.

The sky is falling!

[serpentine]

That's good news for the border runners. I am concerned however for the legitimate businesses owners like myself who have suffered all sorts of confusion at border crossings even with everything in order. Sometimes officials are unable to identfy a NON B visa. I wonder if everything will be clear to everyone working on the borders?

[ovenman]

The immigration rep (whose duties among other things include maintaining the "balcklist" of "undesirables") assured the small group of journos there that things aren't changing all that much. Basically, according to him and the interpol chap, the prime reason for the changes is because with the expemption stamp, immigration and other authorities are unable to do background checks easily against the blacklist (or further investigations with other countries), and thereby keep out known murderers, terrorists, fugitives, and what have you.

So once again, the purportedly omniscient immigrations computer isn't as all-knowing, all-seeing as we are often led to believe. Kinda makes one wonder why, if the powers-that-be can't perform something as simple as real-time checking of the names of entrants into Thailand against a blacklist, they bother with the stupid webcams to take every inbound/outbound traveler's mugshot.

Edited September 16, 2006 by ovenman

[beammeup]

This evening there was an informal meeting/unofficial press conference held at a small cafe on Samsen Road with an Interpol representative and a high ranking secretary from Immigration (who was responsible for drafting much of this policy) concerning the issue that has been eating everyone alive over the last few days.

The immigration rep (whose duties among other things include maintaining the "balcklist" of "undesirables") assured the small group of journos there that things aren't changing all that much. Basically, according to him and the interpol chap, the prime reason for the changes is because with the expemption stamp, immigration and other authorities are unable to do background checks easily against the blacklist (or further investigations with other countries), and thereby keep out known murderers, terrorists, fugitives, and what have you.

So, they said in no uncertain terms that it is possible to continue to stay for years on end as long as you limit your exemption stamps (the 30 day "visa on arrival" border runs), to three, and then go to the consulate in any other country and obtain a two-month tourist visa and return (they said that the consuls are all being instructed to issue these visas -- with the blacklist check). This can be extended at immigration for an extra 30 days and then you can either go and get another one (yes, back to back), or do three more border runs and then another tourist visa. This being the case, border runners will only have to do a maximum of 8 departures a year, but as few as four, if they opt for four back-to-back tourist visas. So if anything, it is more convenient for the long-term stayer, and the authorities get to reduce the amount of true scum (as in criminals, not backpackers and other people that some on this forum have arbitrarily deemed distasteful individuals)

I suspect this will post be shouted down and ridiculed because so much has gone before this and so many have staked their forum name on their theory, but the reps were legit and they were very clear. Maybe the system will break down after a few months, who knows, but this is meant to be the current state of affairs.

So the good news is: It's business as usual folks. Now isn't everyone sorry they blew heart valves over this?

Did they say when they would start counting the stamps? I have 3 already, I will be going home (Thailand) after 1-oct. I dont have time to get a visa as I have a flight home the day after I crew change. My companies insurance doesnt cover me hanging around getting visa's, only travel from work sight to home. It would be very handy to know this. It would determine weather I can go home or not.

[John K]

From my perspective it sounds like spin. Whoever drafted that probably has already started to feel some heat from Thais who stand to lose a lot. Keep in mind much is to save face. To be honest the 60-20-20 applies. The fact that Sunbelt has been posting on it tends to make it sound more creditable, but the fact is they may have been given misleading information. In any case everyone should plan for the worse and hope for the best. It is very possible in the next few days things could change.

[jing jing]

It was obvious from the get-go to anyone with at least half a firing synapse that this would be the case. I mean, even under the strictest interpretation of the new regulations, there were a number of viable options for even the most lazy and incompetent beer-addled sexpat (hey, I'm not beer-addled ) to reside indefinitely in the LOS. A strategy as simple as obtaining 1 (one) single entry 60 day tourist visa followed by an extension and 2 or 3 border runs, then repeat, was never out of the question.

It has indeed been amusing to read the reactions of the punters, ranging from sanguine to full cardiac arrest, over the past few days.

Edited September 16, 2006 by jing jing

[Michael W]

So, they said in no uncertain terms that it is possible to continue to stay for years on end as long as you limit your exemption stamps (the 30 day "visa on arrival" border runs), to three, and then go to the consulate in any other country and obtain a two-month tourist visa and return (they said that the consuls are all being instructed to issue these visas -- with the blacklist check). This can be extended at immigration for an extra 30 days and then you can either go and get another one (yes, back to back), or do three more border runs and then another tourist visa. This being the case, border runners will only have to do a maximum of 8 departures a year, but as few as four, if they opt for four back-to-back tourist visas. So if anything, it is more convenient for the long-term stayer, and the authorities get to reduce the amount of true scum (as in criminals, not backpackers and other people that some on this forum have arbitrarily deemed distasteful individuals)

[...]

So the good news is: It's business as usual folks. Now isn't everyone sorry they blew heart valves over this?

For me, personally, 'business as usual' would mean being able to obtain another triple-entry tourist visa (with each 60 day entry still extendable a further 30 days for 1900 baht) when my current one runs out. Should we expect these becoming available again in Penang or another regional Consulate?

[serpentine]

We are not all human beer kegs with naked ladies in our goggles.........all the time!

Such sudden policy changes stink of incompetence within the gov. Nationalism rearing it's ugly head in a bad way. Such changes are unlikely to weed out many vermin. More likely to cause confusion at border posts with antiquitated computer systems (Sadao is still operating on something that looks like it crawled out of '81 and it is suppossed to be the most sensative border).

It is a ploy by Taksin to attempt to make everyday thais believe that farang are the reason his promises are not materialising.

He will not be living in Thailand in 2 years to explain to everyone where all the tourists went.

Thailand is known and loved internationally for the ease with which one can come and go without breaking the bank. Most of my friends here are on the road constantly and return many times a year to the islands. There are some working illegally in diving, but they are simply doing what hundreds of thousands of Burmese do here............the jobs that thais will not do. Too many legitimates will be hassled unnecessarly for the sake of a few farang working here illegally. The word will spread and all tourism will suffer.

[rishi]

Yes, maybe panic for nothing, but since when have statements on a press conference in Bangkok served as guiding lines for those little kingdoms each consulate and border station has always been? (That part of it won't change).

[britainmal]

I told everybody that already. The difference now is that you have to go a neighbouring country and apply for a tourist visa instead. A little more expensive.

[zeusbheld]

I suspect this will post be shouted down and ridiculed because so much has gone before this and so many have staked their forum name on their theory,

well if anyone who's not making a living from it puts a lot of stock in their forum name they really need to consider finding a more rewarding hobby.

but the reps were legit and they were very clear. Maybe the system will break down after a few months, who knows, but this is meant to be the current state of affairs.

So the good news is: It's business as usual folks. Now isn't everyone sorry they blew heart valves over this?

this is not surprising, but it may change yet again. it's all a political shell game--first, they 'get tough' by playing to the cheap seats, then they backpedal to something more practical when the heat's on (from all the people who stand to lose money, probably).

when my gf heard about it she said that the policy was just politics and would blow over.

i wouldn't be surprised if they start issuing multiple entry visas in penang again after they're done politicking.

thanks for reporting!

[johnnyk]

Do Mr and Mrs Average Thai know about any of this?

Do they care? I doubt it.

Seems to me its simply a way to weed out the people using 30-day VOAs to live here permanently under much of the radar.

Many many countries have 180-day rules, no big deal.

Unless, of course, you can't go back to your home country because you have run out on child support payments, alimony, insurance swindles, property frauds or have just made some enemies through dodgy dealings.

For those people, I feel their pain.

[Thaiquila]

Isn't the flaw in this logic the uncertainty about whether consulates/embassies in neighboring countries will issue even the single entry tourist visa to people with passports chock full 'o stamps?????

I don't see how anyone can be certain they will. Didn't we already have a report from Penang from someone in a similar case who was denied?

Edited September 16, 2006 by Thaiquila

[britainmal]

Well now all the Thai visa run agencies will be offering visa runs to the Thai Embassy or Consulate instead.

[cclub75]

You were present to that meeting I presume ?

And of course they wanted to give you and your fellow journalists this message, with the specific task to broadcast it worldwide, the day after they've broadcasted worldwide a message with a rather different meaning. Or they wanted to give you only their analysis of the situation ?

I don't buy it.

Or more precisely, i would say it might be true. True, but only from a security point of view.

Immigration regulations are complicated because it's a mixing of many services and interests, sometimes opposite :

-foreign affairs

-interior (police/security)

-finances (tax)

-labor (working laws)

-tourism

So, your high ranking security official along with the interpol guy, can speak about their domain of expertise : they're happy with the new regulations because it will ease their work, and they just want to have the visa runners to get at least one visa (so they can screen them).

The only problem is : they are not alone.

Strangely, other high ranking officials put the emphasis on other issues : the fight against "illegal work", the tax issue etc.

Furthermore, the new regulation doesn't pop like that. The process was started in 2004. And you know it very well, because you had at that time a problem to get a visa in the embassy in Phnom Penh.

And since a few month, we saw a strenghtening regarding land ownership via a company and use of thai nominees to by pass business regulations etc.

So you have to be blind to don't see a "pattern".

Last point : I remember very well the episode about the closing time in the bars ("they won't do it. It won't last. It would kill the tourism" etc.). They did. And the discussion about closing earlier the shopping malls ("they won't do it"). They did.

Everything is possible in Thailand.

Anyway, we just need to wait a few more weeks... That's the good point with this controversy : we will be able to assess the situation very quickly.

[lingyai]

From the beginning I've thought it wouldn't be a REAL problem for anyone except the low-level vermin that are selling drugs, etc. These are the targeted people. They should be.

They have NO DESIRE to run off money.....as we all know money rules in Thailand.

The sky is falling!

How many farang are selling drugs? Once again you are off in a fantasy world.

You or another delusional poster in another thread says these rules are to get rid of all the

farang pimps!

Farang criminals are a tiny percentage of the visa runner population. The problem is that when they get caught they are on the cover of Thairath when a Thai committing the same crime might

not be.

[Sunbelt Asia]

The immigration rep (whose duties among other things include maintaining the "balcklist" of "undesirables") assured the small group of journos there that things aren't changing all that much. Basically, according to him and the interpol chap, the prime reason for the changes is because with the expemption stamp, immigration and other authorities are unable to do background checks easily against the blacklist (or further investigations with other countries), and thereby keep out known murderers, terrorists, fugitives, and what have you.

This has always been about revenue by getting tax from people who are working in Thailand illegal. Getting them in the system.

It has also been a way to get revenue from visas at a Embassy or Consulate. The Government gets none on any Tourist Visa Exemption stamps with people doing visa trips every month with a visa bus.

As for getting the bad people out of Thailand by making them go to a Embassy/Consulate. I don't buy it. If you leave Thailand by a plane, you have to look into a camera and they check your passport to see if you are wanted by the police. If you were doing this on a 30 day visa run, even more chance, if you were bad to be caught.... 12 times instead of 8 times a year. Then you would have the Immigration in the other country you flew to.

If you went to Cambodia with a visa bus, you have to go thru four sets of Immigration officers. Once again in Cambodia, you have to look into a camera as well. That's 48 sets of officers in a year.

By forcing you to go to Embassy/ Consulate this is going to weed out the bad element? Do they check a person as much as they do at the border? I sure never have seen that at the Embassy or Consulate. Has anyone else? That's not their job, it is to issue the visa. The Immigration checkpoint is to keep the "bad people" out.

The Embassy/Consulate has been told in the region to give single entry tourist visas now. If it was about keeping "bad people" out. Why not give a multiple entry, after a tourist has checked out? It's to force that person to get a work permit if they are working and then the officer at the Embassy/ Consulate will be asking questions. That is their job to not issue a tourist visa to someone who does not qualify as a tourist.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[LoveDaBlues]

From the beginning I've thought it wouldn't be a REAL problem for anyone except the low-level vermin that are selling drugs, etc. These are the targeted people. They should be.

They have NO DESIRE to run off money.....as we all know money rules in Thailand.

The sky is falling!

How many farang are selling drugs? Once again you are off in a fantasy world.

You or another delusional poster in another thread says these rules are to get rid of all the

farang pimps!

Farang criminals are a tiny percentage of the visa runner population. The problem is that when they get caught they are on the cover of Thairath when a Thai committing the same crime might

not be.

Totally agree with your statement. Thanks for backing up my point. This small percentage of farangs are the targeted group as they should be.

FARANG CRIMS OUT OF THAILAND!

[astral]

Kinda makes one wonder why, if the powers-that-be can't perform something as simple as real-time checking of the names of entrants into Thailand against a blacklist, they bother with the stupid webcams to take every inbound/outbound traveler's mugshot.

I was under the impression that they do check the blacklist automatically when your details are

entered on the computer.

This has been true for several years, even before all the terminals were on-line.

The black list was on the local hard disk.

The web cam is probably a second check, where they find someone has changed their name and received a new passport.

Mind you I doubt they run photo recognition sw against all the images, not yet anyway.

[snakestick]

Isn't the flaw in this logic the uncertainty about whether consulates/embassies in neighboring countries will issue even the single entry tourist visa to people with passports chock full 'o stamps?????

I don't see how anyone can be certain they will. Didn't we already have a report from Penang from someone in a similar case who was denied?

No, eye'm pretty sure that was a scare mongerer. The OP has delivered sum good news to the forum so everybuddy should be greatful. Of course this is knot good news for those dudes who live weigh up country near borders and were in habit of just cruising to a crossing and capturing a free 30 day stamp. Sew eye think we should feel sorry for them as now they must shell out extra cash and travel hassle to Laos or Penang to capture 60 day visas from those consulates. Eye guess this should knot really effect too many other dudes though as long as the airport stamps don't count. Eye also hope that the consulates can run good checks for criminal records although I suspect that true to form criminals will overstay rather than go away. Eye've also heard that the maximum fine for overstay is know longer 20K baht butt rather up to 60K. Did n e 1 here about that increase?

[Thaiquila]

I will believe it when I see it (hear it here). We won't really know for sure until after Oct 1 and after people with 3 30 days after Oct 1 go to Penang and try to get a tourist visa. Then, we will see for sure. With the fickleness of this new change, how could anyone confidently plan their lives based on the comments of this one official?

[PeaceBlondie]

Police and security people have the job of controlling people. Immigration within Thailand is ruled by...POLICE. But TAT, on the other hand, wants tourism business. Tourists will still be encouraged for short-time, but year-round 'residents' will have more difficulties.

Eight times per year, having to go to nearby consulates or even your home consulate once a year - that's supposed to be easier than a one-day run to the nearest border? I don't think so. Speaking of home country consulates, mine is 11 time zones away. And there are no cameras.

Speaking of the USA and cameras, etc., I went to the Consulate General in Chiang Mai last week, a real govt. consulate. They kept my passport for ten minutes! I'm sure the security officer ran it through the criminal check, while the webcams recorded our faces in all directions. So, if you're wanted back home, think twice about getting inside your embassy to Thailand.

So, you can still somehow, probably, perhaps maybe stay in Thailand forever. But do you still want to, or have you already voted to have a family here, even if you get kicked out? Don't panic. But do think. About this, it's difficult to 'think too much.'

[Unknown]

If you panic each time the government change the visa regulations, you'd better not come to Thailand.

Or any developping countries, for that matter...

[Thaiquila]

If you panic each time the government change the visa regulations, you'd better not come to Thailand.

Or any developping countries, for that matter...

Interesting you say this, but in my observations, Thailand does indeed change their visa rules more often than other developing countries I know about. And for people who are being booted out of Thailand based on these recent changes, when should they panic exactly?

[Unknown]

If you panic each time the government change the visa regulations, you'd better not come to Thailand.

Or any developping countries, for that matter...

Interesting you say this, but in my observations, Thailand does indeed change their visa rules more often than other developing countries I know about. And for people who are being booted out of Thailand based on these recent changes, when should they panic exactly?

Xenophobia is more developped in Thailand than in other countries.

Whether it is because they were never colonized, I do not know (shouldn't it be the reverse?).

The party in power based its campaign and was elected thanks to this xenophobia that is latent or obvious in a lot of Thai people.

But well, it was after the 1997 financial crisis.

Since it is almost elections time, they go back to what worked for them before.

And it includes change of visa regulations.

Hopefully the 'average' Thai got smarter...

Edited September 17, 2006 by Unknown

[Pattaya46]

And for people who are being booted out of Thailand based on these recent changes...

Which people ? Please argument.

My understanding is that lot of people living in Thailand will have to ask for a Tourist Visa

when they used to make simple Visa Run. Nothing more.

They can continue to stay (to work ? ) in Thailand. Nothing really change for them.

Pattaya46

[Thai-Spy]

I was under the impression that they do check the blacklist automatically when your details are

entered on the computer.

This has been true for several years, even before all the terminals were on-line.

The black list was on the local hard disk.

The web cam is probably a second check, where they find someone has changed their name and received a new passport.

Mind you I doubt they run photo recognition sw against all the images, not yet anyway.

The "web cam" photo is not used in real time in any way. Nor is the data from the swipe of your machine-readable passport (or manual entry) except to check you against the blacklist and also confirm you against a passenger manifest when entering Thailand at an airport.

Your particulars are entered into Immigration's "who's in-country?" database from your arrival card. This is done behind the scenes at a data processing center. The backlog can be from 3 days to 3 weeks depending on the season.

That in itself is frightening from a law-enforcement perspective -- one can do a whole lot of crime and be gone again before ever appearing in the database -- but there's no practical alternative if Immigration queues are going to be anything like a reasonable length.

[loveandlaughter]

Oh come on......

What George Soros did in 97 was surely outsiders manipulating the economy for their own ends.

With all this we have to wait and see what will happen.

Perhaps the best thing is that people are forewarned and so expect some change, difficult or otherwise.

[Thaiquila]

And for people who are being booted out of Thailand based on these recent changes...

Which people ? Please argument.

My understanding is that lot of people living in Thailand will have to ask for a Tourist Visa

when they used to make simple Visa Run. Nothing more.

They can continue to stay (to work ? ) in Thailand. Nothing really change for them.

Pattaya46

The somewhat clear intention of this current crackdown is to prevent people to live in Thailand acting as a tourist. Yes, there is this proposal of yet another loophole. But remember only SINGLE ENTRIES are being offered, and there is no evidence whatsoever yet whether even single entries will be offered to those who acquire 3 30 days after Oct. 1. So many people do feel indeed like they are being booted out. Not to mention the English teachers who desperately want a work permit and can't get one. I feel the greatest sympathy for them. Being criminalized for basically almost giving away their services when compared to wages in other Asian countries. This is not a black and white issue. Lots of good people are getting hurt.