Is it really better to learn Thai rather than staying "clueless"?

[Tom Parkinson]

There are wonderful Thai women who can speak English and wonderful ones who cannot. Before I met my wife, I dated on a popular website here in Thailand. I have a Ph.D. from a good American university, so I often got contacted by women with advanced degrees, many of whom could not comfortably converse in English. I so much wished that I could speak Thai!

Why? Dating is competitive... men compete for the attention of women (and vice versa). Economists analyzing competition often refer to the "theory of comparative advantage". What fraction of western men can speak passable Thai? Let's be charitable and say 10 percent. What fraction of Thai women can passably speak English? Let's suppose it's again 10 percent.

What this means is that fully 100 percent of the western men here can compete for the 10 percent of the Thai women who can speak English. For western men who can speak Thai, however, they are 10 percent of the male pool, but competing for the full 100 percent of the female pool. Their odds are 100 times as good as the men who cannot speak Thai! That's comparative advantage at work...

Edited June 30, 2015 by Tom Parkinson

[MaeJoMTB]

Why? Dating is competitive... men compete for the attention of women (and vice versa). Economists analyzing competition often refer to the "theory of comparative advantage". What fraction of western men can speak passable Thai? Let's be charitable and say 10 percent. What fraction of Thai women can passably speak English? Let's suppose it's again 10 percent.

If you have money, they will date you.

The only competition, is how much they can extract and how quickly.

Not speaking Thai means you're a n00b, and therefore more desirable as a mark.

What fraction of Thai women on the foreigner dating sites can passably read/write English ........ 95% (or higher).

Edited June 30, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[ozzieovaseas]

The argument you describe.."better not to know" is routinely used by those who cant be ar$ed learning the language.

I did bother to learn the language,

and quickly worked out that every white guy I knew (bar one) was married/dating a former sex worker who was fleecing him for everything she could.

While a Thai husband waited in the sidelines to collect the 'take'. The white guys wouldn't listen, and I gave up warning them.

PS

I've just found out the 'good one' has just stolen over 2Mbht from his bank account.

Totally gutted, I thought I had found one that was different.

Fair enough, I havent read the whole thread but im not sure of the point you make..You seem to say its a useless language to learn, but also write about how

advantageous its been to you to speak Thai.

My experience is completely different to yours. Of the last 6 foreigners ive come in contact with, ALL their Thai partners have REAL day jobs.

Poor paying ones granted, but i assume they are happy to have someone provide for them and stay in a nice

condo with a decent quality of life, rather than being in a flea bitten 1900baht room with nothing in it.

None of them will be fleeced i imagine, because in all cases the girl has been made to realize the guy isnt rich and relies

on a small but comfortable income stream.

But yeah, these guys are all in suburban BKK. If i lived in Pattaya id expect to hear very different stories. And by

saying that i am not having a shot at Pattaya either, its just the class of woman you meet there.

In the case of guys getting fleeced, same as always..they allowed it to happen. If you give your GF (of any nationality) access to your bank account,

what do you expect will happen when things go south.

That is just stupidity and something ive never done, even in my home country.

The other point that Thai is useless outside of Thailand strikes me as strange also, as the same applies to any language.

If i learned French or Mandarin or whatever, i would hardly have any need for it in western speaking country.

[Tom Parkinson]

My reason for wanting to learn Thai is that I do not like feeling "clueless" in my environment. I like the feeling of knowing what's going on...

Also, many years ago I had a small experience that humbled me. My then GF was working in a hotel in southern Germany for the summer, so I flew over to travel around with her for two weeks. I flew into Dusseldorf, then took a train to Stuttgart. I then had a five-hour layover before catching my next train on to Munich.

When I got on the train to Stuttgart, I sat in a compartment with a late-30ish women, whom I presumed to be German. I tried to make polite conversation using my very fractured and minimal German. It turned out that she was German, but had been living for the last decade in the US. So we had a nice conversation. She was just returning to visit her sister. She said that they were going out for lunch in Stuttgart... Why didn't I join them, and they could drop me back at the train station after lunch? I agreed that was a lovely offer and accepted.

Her sister and three-year-old son met us with her car at the train station. The two sisters got in front and I got in back with the three-year-old. He tried to chat with me, but I could only understand a little of what he was saying, so naturally I had trouble replying to him. But I understood what he asked his mother all too clearly...

"Mom, why is this man so stupid?"

It really stings to be put down by a three-year-old!

I don't like that feeling of ignorance and helplessness... That said, I have not been able to commit the time and energy on a sustained basis to be able to learn more than taxi Thai. Starting up a consulting firm and traveling three weeks out of four is just not conducive to studying. But I plan to retire at the end of the year and hope to learn then -- if my aging brain will cooperate.

[MaeJoMTB]

The other point that Thai is useless outside of Thailand strikes me as strange also, as the same applies to any language.

If i learned French or Mandarin or whatever, i would hardly have any need for it in western speaking country.

If you can speak, English, French and Spanish, you can communicate with most of the western world.

Add Mandarin and Hindi to cover nearly 95% of the world.

Speaking Thai, allows you to communicate with 1% of the world.

And that 1% live in a country, on the brink of civil war, that you have no rights to live inside.

[Linzz]

So if, say, a Thai person spent ten years living in the UK, without bothering to learn a word of English - you'd be ok with that?

(And please, try not to make this about the technicalities of visas etc)

After 10 years they would be a citizen, so they should learn English.

(nothing I have posted has been about VISAs, it's about citizenship and being expected to learn the language of a nothing country with a nothing language where you can never belong is the height of absurdity)

Can you speak, read and write Thai (and if so what variety)?

I suspect not.

Wow! I take it you're talking about Thailand? If this is how you think I hope you don't still live in there and you have since left and taken your bitterness with you....if you remain then why are you staying in such an unhappy place? We belong where people accept us and it sounds as if you've never been accepted, and if so is that really their fault? I suspect not by your disparaging comments. Relationships are 50-50 and you will get what you give and be respected likewise but it seems like too late in your case, Sure we will never be 100% in sync but that is not enough to be as unhappy as you have portrayed yourself to be surely? Or is it that judging by your earlier posts, did you and your mates really expect to lead a trusting and fulfilling life with bar girls? What were you thinking?

Edited June 30, 2015 by Linzz

[MaeJoMTB]

We belong where people accept us and it sounds as if you've never been accepted, and if so is that really their fault? I suspect not by your disparaging comments. Relationships are 50-50 and you will get what you give and be respected likewise but it seems like too late in your case, Sure we will never be 100% in sync but that is not enough to be as unhappy as you have portrayed yourself to be surely?

So you aren't 'farang' to everyone around you.

You can work in any job you like, no permit required.

You don't need to do 90 day reports.

And you can buy land.

Sounds like a great place!

(Respected 555, that's a good one, you clearly don't speak Thai, you're happy because you're clueless!)

Edited June 30, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[JLCrab]

I speak reasonable Thai and can read and write some as well

I already speak Spanish and Chinese.

I have been fleeced maybe a bit by a Thai girl here who doesn't speak English but have been fleeced far less that my brother was fleeced in his divorce in the USA.

[Linzz]

We belong where people accept us and it sounds as if you've never been accepted, and if so is that really their fault? I suspect not by your disparaging comments. Relationships are 50-50 and you will get what you give and be respected likewise but it seems like too late in your case, Sure we will never be 100% in sync but that is not enough to be as unhappy as you have portrayed yourself to be surely?

So you aren't 'farang' to everyone around you.

You can work in any job you like, no permit required.

You don't need to do 90 day reports.

And you can buy land.

Sounds like a great place!

(Respected 555, that's a good one, you clearly don't speak Thai, you're happy because you're clueless!)

Why are you there then? If things are so bad for you then it's simple...just leave, (or stay and complain to all on TV about your life for the rest of it)

[gary94578]

Not Knowing Thai can be Fun ! And Bring You Love

I'm in the hospital talking in English about intimate details of my health with 3 beautiful nursing students each 50 years younger than me.

Beautiful student nurse (BSN): Do you know any Thai?

Me: Suvarnabhumi

BSN: Suvarnabhumi? Anything else?

Me: I love you (all Thais know this, so it is part of their language)

BSN: I love you.

Me: Say it again

BSN: I love you.

Me: Say it again louder.

Laughter

So, after two minutes of conversation I have a beautiful student telling me she loves me twice in front of her friends.

The conversation continued and ended with one BSN saying she will visit me in my room when I'm out.

Learn Thai for what?

Edited June 30, 2015 by gary94578

[MaeJoMTB]

We belong where people accept us and it sounds as if you've never been accepted, and if so is that really their fault? I suspect not by your disparaging comments. Relationships are 50-50 and you will get what you give and be respected likewise but it seems like too late in your case, Sure we will never be 100% in sync but that is not enough to be as unhappy as you have portrayed yourself to be surely?

So you aren't 'farang' to everyone around you.

You can work in any job you like, no permit required.

You don't need to do 90 day reports.

And you can buy land.

Sounds like a great place!

(Respected 555, that's a good one, you clearly don't speak Thai, you're happy because you're clueless!)

Why are you there then? If things are so bad for you then it's simple...just leave, (or stay and complain to all on TV about your life for the rest of it)

I quite like it here, but then I'm not stupid, and I don't feel the need to hide the bad things about the place.

You're clearly a n00b, just wait till you get your first shock, then you'll be off.

Usual first shocks for foreigners, (for guys) Thai gf cheating or stealing, (for girls) husband using hookers.

Read these threads, there are the norm, not the unusual

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/836222-married-or-not/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/836487-thai-bluesis-it-normal/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/836479-reality-check-family-first/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/828588-who-has-the-rights-if-parents-seperated/

Edited June 30, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[ozzieovaseas]

Note where I said 'choosing to live in'.

Note where I said 'expected citizenship'.

I purposely avoided the word immigrant because I didn't want to get sidetracked into the usual pedantic stuff about visa types and citizenship. The intent of my question is clear - is it ok for foreigners to choose to live in your home country and make no effort to learn the language?

If that's the question you are referring to in your last few posts, then allow me a shot.

Of course, in most English speaking countries speaking the language fluently is a requirement for citizenship,

along with taking an oath/pledge and knowing the anthem. etc

Without these requirements you don't get citizenship <full stop>.

Farangs staying in Thailand are not usually looking to give up their own citizenship and become a Thai citizen, unless they

they are firmly planted here with a successful history with Thai family, house etc.

SO.. as they say...up to them!

And yes, up to them, if they don't learn Thai and choose to stay here long term, they put themselves at a huge disadvantage

in just about every situation.

In places like Australia scorn is poured on any nationality of people that live there and don't speak English, but lets face it,

the typical ocker Aussie will take any opportunity to have a shot at an Asian.

You must at least hand it to Thais in that way, it is not a well know trait to pour scorn on the average farang who lives here and cant speak Thai.

Up to them..is quite fitting for this argument. I dont get why you guys argue so vehemently about it.

Edited June 30, 2015 by ozzieovaseas

[MaeJoMTB]

You must at least hand it to Thais in that way, it is not a well know trait to pour scorn on the average farang who lives here and cant speak Thai.

Says the 'farang'.

555, I couldn't make these posts up!

(PS nobody from the main western countries has to give up their current citizenship to be come a Thai citizen)

Edited June 30, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[JLCrab]

We belong where people accept us and it sounds as if you've never been accepted, and if so is that really their fault? I suspect not by your disparaging comments. Relationships are 50-50 and you will get what you give and be respected likewise but it seems like too late in your case, Sure we will never be 100% in sync but that is not enough to be as unhappy as you have portrayed yourself to be surely?

So you aren't 'farang' to everyone around you.

You can work in any job you like, no permit required.

You don't need to do 90 day reports.

And you can buy land.

Sounds like a great place!

(Respected 555, that's a good one, you clearly don't speak Thai, you're happy because you're clueless!)

Why are you there then? If things are so bad for you then it's simple...just leave, (or stay and complain to all on TV about your life for the rest of it)

I quite like it here, but then I'm not stupid, and I don't feel the need to hide the bad things about the place.

You're clearly a n00b, just wait till you get your first shock, then you'll be off.

Usual first shocks for foreigners, (for guys) Thai gf cheating or stealing, (for girls) husband using hookers.

Read these threads, there are the norm, not the unusual

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/836222-married-or-not/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/836487-thai-bluesis-it-normal/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/836479-reality-check-family-first/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/828588-who-has-the-rights-if-parents-seperated/

From the above: but then I'm not stupid ... Thanks for pointing that out.

[Linzz]

We belong where people accept us and it sounds as if you've never been accepted, and if so is that really their fault? I suspect not by your disparaging comments. Relationships are 50-50 and you will get what you give and be respected likewise but it seems like too late in your case, Sure we will never be 100% in sync but that is not enough to be as unhappy as you have portrayed yourself to be surely?

So you aren't 'farang' to everyone around you.

You can work in any job you like, no permit required.

You don't need to do 90 day reports.

And you can buy land.

Sounds like a great place!

(Respected 555, that's a good one, you clearly don't speak Thai, you're happy because you're clueless!)

Why are you there then? If things are so bad for you then it's simple...just leave, (or stay and complain to all on TV about your life for the rest of it)

I quite like it here, but then I'm not stupid, and I don't feel the need to hide the bad things about the place.

You're clearly a n00b, just wait till you get your first shock, then you'll be off.

Usual first shocks for foreigners, (for guys) Thai gf cheating or stealing, (for girls) husband using hookers.

Read these threads, there are the norm, not the unusual

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/836222-married-or-not/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/836487-thai-bluesis-it-normal/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/836479-reality-check-family-first/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/828588-who-has-the-rights-if-parents-seperated/

It really sounds as if you've spent your life with the bar girl fraternity. So you expect different?

OK then, you've just said you like it in Thailand. I would have thought by your earlier posts that you hated it with a vengeance. So tell me why do you " like it here"? Please don't feel the need to hide the good things about the place!

Edited June 30, 2015 by Linzz

[Shiver]

I have a working understanding of Isaan variants, but certainly not anywhere close to fluent. I find that if I listen carefully that what they're talking about isn't very interesting ("did you work today? did you shower yet? what did you eat today?").

I guess you could take it a couple of ways; one being that if you understand it you will get bored/p1ssed off and want to leave, or you could use ignorance as bliss, or you could get very good so that you understand but act stupid like you don't know - because if they know you know, then they'll switch dialects so you're still in the dark.

None of those are a perfect answer. I guess it depends if your wants/needs are being fulfilled or not, and decide how much of each variant you need to learn.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Shiver

[ozzieovaseas]

You must at least hand it to Thais in that way, it is not a well know trait to pour scorn on the average farang who lives here and cant speak Thai.

Says the 'farang'.

555, I couldn't make these posts up!

(PS nobody from the main western countries has to give up their current citizenship to be come a Thai citizen)

Excuse, i haven't researched the topic, but i thought read that it was a requirement for Thai you must give up your citizenship.

I know Australia don't allow dual citizenship, thought Thai was the same.

[MaeJoMTB]

It really sounds as if you've spent your life with the bar girl fraternity. So you expect different?

OK then, you've just said you like it in Thailand. I would have thought by your earlier posts that you hated it with a vengeance. So tell me why do you " like it here"? Please don't feel the need to hide the good things about the place!

Cheap women, less than 1/2 my age .............

(and good weather for MTB every day, but many countries have that)

[MaeJoMTB]

Excuse, i haven't researched the topic, but i thought read that it was a requirement for Thai you must give up your citizenship.

I know Australia don't allow dual citizenship, thought Thai was the same.

You have to sign a document stating you are prepared to give up your former citizenship.

But you don't actually have to do it.

(and even if you did, most western countries allow you to change your mind later)

[seajae]

would love to learn thai but have memory retention problems so I can sit down and practice for hours on end then promptly forget it all, add to that the fact that I cant pick out the tonal difference and it becomes a real pain. Even when I use the few words I have been able to retain(or numbers) people look at me and have no idea what I am trying to say so I just talk very slow english. Being able to talk thai would be brilliant and as I said I would love to be able to learn it but as I cant I do the next best thing, smile a lot and go with the flow.

[seajae]

You must at least hand it to Thais in that way, it is not a well know trait to pour scorn on the average farang who lives here and cant speak Thai.

Says the 'farang'.

555, I couldn't make these posts up!

(PS nobody from the main western countries has to give up their current citizenship to be come a Thai citizen)

Excuse, i haven't researched the topic, but i thought read that it was a requirement for Thai you must give up your citizenship.

I know Australia don't allow dual citizenship, thought Thai was the same.

Australia allows duel citizenship, why do you think they are trying to pass a law to remove aussie citizenship from duel holders if they go overseas to fight with terrorists. There are quite a lot of duel holders in Australia.

[BadBouy]

Knowledge is power.

Ignorance is bliss.

You choose.

[Linzz]

It really sounds as if you've spent your life with the bar girl fraternity. So you expect different?

OK then, you've just said you like it in Thailand. I would have thought by your earlier posts that you hated it with a vengeance. So tell me why do you " like it here"? Please don't feel the need to hide the good things about the place!

Cheap women, less than 1/2 my age .............

(and good weather for MTB every day, but many countries have that)

Easy! You've answered most of your own problems then. Cheap usually means not good quality and half your age means they'll use you and won't respect or even like you. You complain but this is your choice, they will oblige and then you damn them.. Not rocket science

[MaeJoMTB]

It really sounds as if you've spent your life with the bar girl fraternity. So you expect different?

OK then, you've just said you like it in Thailand. I would have thought by your earlier posts that you hated it with a vengeance. So tell me why do you " like it here"? Please don't feel the need to hide the good things about the place!

Cheap women, less than 1/2 my age .............

(and good weather for MTB every day, but many countries have that)

Easy! You've answered most of your own problems then. Cheap usually means not good quality and half your age means they'll use you and won't respect or even like you. You complain but this is your choice, they will oblige and then you damn them.. Not rocket science

You haven't revealed your levels of Thai language skills yet, from your rose coloured glasses I'm assuming none.

I have no problems with Thai sex workers, they are great fun, but not particularly trustworthy.

But then again, what woman is!

Thais generally hate and despise white foreigners. I don't expect any of them to like or respect me, you are the one with the false expectations.

[Linzz]

It really sounds as if you've spent your life with the bar girl fraternity. So you expect different?

OK then, you've just said you like it in Thailand. I would have thought by your earlier posts that you hated it with a vengeance. So tell me why do you " like it here"? Please don't feel the need to hide the good things about the place!

Cheap women, less than 1/2 my age .............

(and good weather for MTB every day, but many countries have that)

Easy! You've answered most of your own problems then. Cheap usually means not good quality and half your age means they'll use you and won't respect or even like you. You complain but this is your choice, they will oblige and then you damn them.. Not rocket science

You haven't revealed your levels of Thai language skills yet, from your rose coloured glasses I'm assuming none.

I have no problems with Thai sex workers, they are great fun, but not particularly trustworthy.

But then again, what woman is!

Thais generally hate and despise white foreigners. I don't expect any of them to like or respect me, you are the one with the false expectations.

My Thai is reasonable but basic.It's hard for the language not to rub off. I have been married for more than 5 years and not encountered any serious problems. I am not ignorant of the seamy side but don't choose to go there simply so that I don't expose myself to the things you talk about. I am treated well because I give respect and so I have it returned. I have never been used and I never put myself in a position to be used. I couldn't give a damn if Thai's talk about me behind my back because I'm not that insecure, but I can't say I've experienced it any more than anywhere else in the world. If they talk about the Farang then I talk about the Asian, they soon stop. All cultures have their faults and idiosyncrasies.Thai's hate and despise certain white foreigners and I can't say I blame them. If you show anybody from any country, especially women, the sneering misogyny you have shown so far on this posting I am not surprised your experience is so limited. Use the same formula and you'll come up with the same result. Rose tinted glasses? Perhaps, but it's a better colour than having your eyes shut by cynicism.

[Naam]

Some people have an aptitude for learning languages - some don't.

I was born without one, but overcame it to learn Thai.

I didn't want my Thai family and children to see me as an illiterate who couldn't speak the language.

I am illiterate then...

you and me could form a club

[Naam]

it surely pays to learn Thai! i was told that you get a discount of up to 5 Baht and an extra spoonful when ordering a noodle soup from a street vendor

[nitpicker]

Sorry, OP, but it seems to me you are just finding excuses not to make the effort to learn Thai. I recommend The Rough Guide Phrasebook and its companion book and (cassette) Teach Yourself Thai plus a Kor Khai (Thai alphabet) wall chart. I found these books made it fun to learn Thai, have a conversation and learn to read and write too. Google Translate is useful but only if you learn to read Thai. .

[MaeJoMTB]

Sorry, OP, but it seems to me you are just finding excuses not to make the effort to learn Thai. I recommend The Rough Guide Phrasebook and its companion book and (cassette) Teach Yourself Thai plus a Kor Khai (Thai alphabet) wall chart. I found these books made it fun to learn Thai, have a conversation and learn to read and write too. Google Translate is useful but only if you learn to read Thai. .

This was my first Thai language book purchase ........ It's actually quite a good read.

Then I moved on to this one after gaining a live in gf, the books incredibly dull.

This one came when I aquired a Thai wife, a much more racy read.

And finally, the more serious and heavy going title.

Not many make it to the last book, but it's really more useful than the title suggests.

Edited June 30, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[SoiBiker]

It really sounds as if you've spent your life with the bar girl fraternity. So you expect different?

OK then, you've just said you like it in Thailand. I would have thought by your earlier posts that you hated it with a vengeance. So tell me why do you " like it here"? Please don't feel the need to hide the good things about the place!

Cheap women, less than 1/2 my age .............

(and good weather for MTB every day, but many countries have that)

Easy! You've answered most of your own problems then. Cheap usually means not good quality and half your age means they'll use you and won't respect or even like you. You complain but this is your choice, they will oblige and then you damn them.. Not rocket science

You haven't revealed your levels of Thai language skills yet, from your rose coloured glasses I'm assuming none.

I have no problems with Thai sex workers, they are great fun, but not particularly trustworthy.

But then again, what woman is!

Thais generally hate and despise white foreigners. I don't expect any of them to like or respect me, you are the one with the false expectations.

Funny how it's always the ones who came here for the women who think the locals hate them.

Perhaps there's a link there?