Thai Navy seeks to buy three Chinese submarines in Bt36-billion deal

[webfact]

GOVERNMENT-TO-GOVERNMENT CONTRACT
Navy seeks to buy three Chinese submarines in Bt36-billion deal
PANYA THIOSANGWAN
THE NATION

BANGKOK: -- THE NAVY has proposed the purchase of three submarines from China through a government-to-government contract worth Bt36 billion, Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Kraisorn Chansuwanich said yesterday.

Kraisorn said he did not know when Deputy Premier and Defence Minister General Prawit Wongsuwan would submit the proposed procurement deal to the Cabinet for deliberation.

The decision to submit the proposal was made by 17 young-generation committee members from the Submarine Squadron, having arrived at the decision after examining similar products from six countries.

Fourteen of them favoured Chinese submarines, while two committee members chose submarines from Germany and one preferred submarines from Sweden.

The Chinese submarines would be sufficiently armed, Kraisorn said.

The payment, if approved, would be made over between seven to 10 years. China would train the Thai Navy personnel on how to operate the subs and provide eight years' worth of spare parts, he said.

"The purchase is a wise decision to maximise our capability under a tight budget. With the same amount of budget, we may be able to obtain only two submarines if dealing with other countries," he said.

"All three submarines will be new, taking five to six years to complete. Our officers will be assigned to observe the construction for two years. This will be quite challenging for them, as the technology to be used is rather new [for us].

"China is the only country that equips the Air-Independent Propulsion System in its submarines. The system allows the submarines to fully submerge for as long as 21 days.

"Those without this system, from South Korea and Germany, are able to submerge for only five to six days, and if the submarines resurface too often, they can be detected by satellites.

"Indeed, there are concerns about products made in China. As of now, I wish not to comment on the point," he added.

"Any questions will be answered once there is an approval from the Cabinet, so any unnecessary criticisms can be avoided."

He added that media criticism on the matter would lead to a feud.

Kraisorn said he was not worried over whether the Cabinet would give the nod for the purchase. "The Navy works on orders from the Cabinet and that's it. We are transparent on this, as there is no backstage lobbyist."

Asked how necessary the proposed purchase is considering the Kingdom is at peace with neighbours, Kraisorn replied: "We have not had any submarines for five decades since the last World War, and we do not know when an emergency will arise.

"It also takes at least three years to learn how to operate submarines properly and to build strong teamwork among 50 crew on board, so we need time to prepare ourselves just in case.

"More importantly, submarines are defensive strategic arms. We will purchase them to balance our power with neighbouring countries."

Kraisorn's comments came after Prawit refused to answer how Thailand would benefit from purchasing the submarines, saying that he only thought Thailand should have submarines of its own.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Navy-seeks-to-buy-three-Chinese-submarines-in-Bt36-30263637.html

-- The Nation 2015-07-03

[webfact]

Navy eyes submarines from China

BANGKOK, 3 July 2015 (NNT) – The Royal Thai Navy is planning to propose purchasing submarines from China in a latest move to bolster its defense capacity.

Navy chief Kraisorn Chansuwanit disclosed the Royal Thai Navy decided to seek a budget of 3.6 billion baht for the purchase of three Chinese submarines through a government-to-government deal. The making of the warships is expected to take five or six years and the budget should be disbursed step by step for up to 10 years.

Admiral Kraisorn said the Navy’s committee picked Chinese submarines rather than those made in Germany and Sweden, as they are equipped with the Air Independent Propulsion system which enables the ships to remain under water for as long as 21 days. Submarines from other countries are yet to have this technology.

The Navy chief said he could not tell when Defense Minister Gen Prawit Wongsuwan would propose the purchase plan to the cabinet meeting. If the purchase is approved, the country will possess the first batch of submarines after 50 years.


-- NNT 2015-07-03

[BSJ]

I am sure the Chinese submarines will be just fine. What could possibly go wong???

[hansgruber]

I dont see the need. Thailand has already submitted itself to China.

[NongKhaiKid]

I've read elsewhere that the committee were not influenced in any way as it was composed of young officers who knew what they were doing.

Thailand may have a ' Submarine Squadron ' of people who sail desks but does anyone actually have the expertise to differentiate between the qualities and suitability of the various subs available ?

I suppose China being LoS's new best friend would have absolutely nothing to do with it.

[Songhua]

The Chinese South China Sea Defence Unit : Thailand Squadrom

[Mango Bob]

Would you really buy something that your life depended on that said "Made in China"?

[Mango Bob]

After one air ship that can't fly or do the mission it was purchased for and a aircraft carrier with no planes you think they would have learned their lesson.

[ratcatcher]

"Navy seeks". "Navy eyes" "Navy wants" "Navy gets"

Got to keep up with the big boys.

[NongKhaiKid]

Would you really buy something that your life depended on that said "Made in China"?

and they can stay submerged for up to 21 days !

Maybe much longer of course, Chinese sub with a Thai crew.

[BigBadGeordie]

I think they are getting a little out of their depth here.

[BuckBee]

Load of false info there, only limiting factor on modern western nuclear subs on how long they can stay submerged is on amount of food they stock & crew health ! technically they can stay down for years not days !

AIP been round for years & the chinese didn't design it ;-) thai hi-so officials are as stupid as stupid gets ! :-/

think they need get some experts in because as usual they don't know 5hit from runny custard & going buy junk for decent dollar :-S

Edited July 2, 2015 by BuckBee

[arfurcrown]

I wonder just how the average Thai sailor will respond to a sub mariners life?

I had a short induction assessment course as a submariner many a year back and I assure you it is not the nicest of experiences.

Rare breed sub mariners they have my respect. I much preferred being on top of the ocean as opposed to in it umpteen fathoms down.

At least you were in with a chance if disaster struck.

[jaidam]

This really does put into perspective the 700 billion lost by Yingluck and her brother. They could have bought 60 subs, or just think how many schools, hospitals, high speed vegetable and produce carrying trains that could have bought.

[kaorop]

Hopefully the proposal gets thrown out with the bath water.

[NongKhaiKid]

I wonder just how the average Thai sailor will respond to a sub mariners life?

I had a short induction assessment course as a submariner many a year back and I assure you it is not the nicest of experiences.

Rare breed sub mariners they have my respect. I much preferred being on top of the ocean as opposed to in it umpteen fathoms down.

At least you were in with a chance if disaster struck.

If their smart phones don't work when submerged there will be a mutiny

[boomerangutang]

Will be interesting when the sub cook tosses two dozen dried red peppers in the boiling oil slathered on the wok.

The Thai gov't itself, released findings that gov't contracts usually involve about 1/3 graft, so our esteemed leaders in the pipeline can be expected to be salivating about now, trying to decide how to divvy up the 12 billion baht in gravy from this contract. "Hmmmm, should I go to St Moritz, or go gambling at Monaco? Perhaps I'll purchase a 135' schooner and go visit my best buddy at his private island in Montenegro."

[tx22cb]

I love how these Admirals/Generals squirm when they are asked why Thailand needs submarines, only to finally spout the Prayut mantra of "media criticism on the matter would lead to a feud".

In a defence capacity, there's nothing the submarines can do that the existing frigates and land-based jets can't do.

I hope the next civilian government will cancel any deals with the Chinese.

[Bannum opinions]

They will never live this thing down.

It will be used many times in the future as an indication of the most flagrant misspending of the Nations wealth...A nation filled with poor people. A nation where 'children' are their pension plans, to augment the small, previous pension plan policy introduced by Thaksin.

This submarine thing will be iconic.

Every time the anti-democrat/elites attack their favorite whipping boy, Populist programs, the purchase of submarines will be referenced to counter their ideology.

Populist programs to the Bangkok-centric elite essentially amounts to the re-distribution of wealth. They have no interest in divesting themselves of that bounty.

I understand that the 30-baht hospital program is under attack currently, which exemplifies a typical 'populist policy'......The medical establishment/Elite hatred of that 'populist program' is well known, and a central element of their Thaksin demonization campaign...It removed a golden goose from their grasp. An example of wealth floating upward and resistance to a populist program seeking to return that wealth in the form of "policies for ordinary people", which defines populism.

The retort of cynics will be "Buy another submarine" instead.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Bannum opinions

[sungod]

Load of false info there, only limiting factor on modern western nuclear subs on how long they can stay submerged is on amount of food they stock & crew health ! technically they can stay down for years not days !

AIP been round for years & the chinese didn't design it ;-) thai hi-so officials are as stupid as stupid gets ! :-/

think they need get some experts in because as usual they don't know 5hit from runny custard & going buy junk for decent dollar :-S

Absolutely agree, complete crap.

The Swedish 'Gotland' class of submarine is a desel boat and has emplyed the AIP system since the mid 90s (Chinese probably copied it)

Its far superior to the Chinese sub.

[boomerangutang]

Name one thing on the Chinese sub which the Chinese didn't copy, except maybe the spot of gunpowder on the matches they use for lighting their cigs.

[englishoak]

So I wonder how much the maintenance contract is on top along with the training and armament ? Or are they going to use khaosan rd qualified submariner engineers and sea to air Temple made rockets ?

Oh and dont forget to have that Sub blessed and draped with white cotton from top to bottom, thatll help.

sorry but its such a funny picture and yknow what ? they probably will have a blessing ceremony too.

[Bannum opinions]

So I wonder how much the maintenance contract is on top along with the training and armament ? Or are they going to use khaosan rd qualified submariner engineers and sea to air Temple made rockets ?

Oh and dont forget to have that Sub blessed and draped with white cotton from top to bottom, thatll help.

sorry but its such a funny picture and yknow what ? they probably will have a blessing ceremony too.

Never mind that...acquiring these ships is only half the battle...Don't they need special docking facilities?...Building a submarine-friendly port will have a huge cost, won't it?....I dunno.

I just remember WW2 programs dealing with the Submarine warfare of the Atlantic...The Germans had specially constructed "Submarine pens"...But maybe those were to ward off air attack.......But doesn't Cambodia have aircraft that need to be defended against?

Edited July 3, 2015 by Bannum opinions

[NongKhaiKid]

So I wonder how much the maintenance contract is on top along with the training and armament ? Or are they going to use khaosan rd qualified submariner engineers and sea to air Temple made rockets ?

Oh and dont forget to have that Sub blessed and draped with white cotton from top to bottom, thatll help.

sorry but its such a funny picture and yknow what ? they probably will have a blessing ceremony too.

Yes, and all the dashboard covering religious stuff I see in so many vehicles doesn't seem to work too well.

[Orac]

So I wonder how much the maintenance contract is on top along with the training and armament ? Or are they going to use khaosan rd qualified submariner engineers and sea to air Temple made rockets ?

Oh and dont forget to have that Sub blessed and draped with white cotton from top to bottom, thatll help.

sorry but its such a funny picture and yknow what ? they probably will have a blessing ceremony too.

Never mind that...acquiring these ships is only half the battle...Don't they need special docking facilities?...Building a submarine-friendly port will have a huge cost, won't it?....I dunno.

I just remember WW2 programs dealing with the Submarine warfare of the Atlantic...The Germans had specially constructed "Submarine pens"...But maybe those were to ward off air attack.......But doesn't Cambodia have aircraft that need to be defended against?

I would assume a Chinese submarine base at Sattahip will solve the problem.

[Emster23]

36,000,000,000 baht? Bring back rice schemes. I should not worry about this fleecing of the public coffers. I have full faith in the loyal opposition in Parliament exposing the graft to the court of public opinion and voting this down. What? eh? Oh yeah, forgot there is no loyal opposition in Parliament. Government like giving unlimited atm card to drunk teenager, drop off at Paragon.

[boomerangutang]

Thais look with disdain on anything second hand, but there must be 2nd hand subs available from some other countries' arsenals, when they upgrade.

That doesn't preclude the mind-on-vacation attitude about Thai self-appointed military leaders wanting subs in the first place. It's bonkers.

[Tonawatchee]

After one air ship that can't fly or do the mission it was purchased for and a aircraft carrier with no planes you think they would have learned their lesson.

They can memorize by rote but actually learning by comparing and seeing the difference is apparently still in evolution.

[rametindallas]

It has been so long since Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Kraisorn has had the truth spoken to him, he actually thinks he made a convincing argument.

The decision to submit the proposal was made by 17 young-generation committee members from the Submarine Squadron, having arrived at the decision after examining similar products from six countries.
Certainly no bias here. /sarc

The Chinese submarines would be sufficiently armed, Kraisorn said.
Missiles, torpedoes, what? Why so vague? Don't you know the specifications you want/apparently need?

China would train the Thai Navy personnel on how to operate the subs and provide eight years' worth of spare parts, he said.
Do the Chinese speak Thai or vice versa? Since we all know how horribly the Chinese translate their sign-age into English, it is hopeless to think they will put useful Thai language signs in the subs.

"The purchase is a wise decision to maximise our capability under a tight budget. With the same amount of budget, we may be able to obtain only two submarines if dealing with other countries," he said.
How tight is your budget when you consider 36 billion Baht for a weapons system of dubious quality and no real mission a necessity. If they want need to spend 36 billion Baht, buy a fleet of coastal frigates to patrol for illegal immigrants, pirates, and rogue foreign fishing boats. Heck, the frigates could be used to detect the neighboring countries' submarines. At least the citizens would get something tangible from the money spent.

"China is the only country that equips the Air-Independent Propulsion System in its submarines. The system allows the submarines to fully submerge for as long as 21 days.
So, all the other countries' submarines are air-dependent and have to have a snorkel leading to the surface? 21 days is not very long but long enough for a Thai sailor to go berserkers and kill his crew-mates or sink the sub.

"Those without this system, from South Korea and Germany, are able to submerge for only five to six days, and if the submarines resurface too often, they can be detected by satellites.
"A more challenging area for submarines to operate undetected is the East China Sea, which is quite shallow from the Chinese coastline up to the Okinawa Trough with a depth of only 30 to 60 fathoms [180 to 360 feet] in most places," said associate professor Peter Dutton with the China Maritime Studies Institute at the US Naval War College. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LE13Ad01.html Thailand's territorial waters aren't even that deep so they would always be in view of a satellite. That being said, which of the few countries that have satellites capable of tracking Thai subs would even care?

"Indeed, there are concerns about products made in China.
No Shit, Sherlock.

As of now, I wish not to comment on the point," he added.

If I was asking the Thai taxpayer to fund 36 billion Baht worth of Chinese built submarines, I wouldn't want to comment on the quality of a submarine built for export to Thailand, either.

"Any questions will be answered once there is an approval from the Cabinet, so any unnecessary criticisms can be avoided."
What he really means is, "Absolutely we don't want to have any discussions before we spend 36 billion Baht of the taxpayer's money because the plan is half-baked and meant to get large 'rebates' from the Chinese for giving them the contract." Answering questions as to who bought the blind horse after the money is spent is kind of pointless anyway.

He added that media criticism on the matter would lead to a feud.

If the project is such a great idea, why would there be any media criticism and why would it lead to a feud?

Kraisorn said he was not worried over whether the Cabinet would give the nod for the purchase. "The Navy works on orders from the Cabinet and that's it. We are transparent on this, as there is no backstage lobbyist."
I believe him... NOT!

Asked how necessary the proposed purchase is considering the Kingdom is at peace with neighbours, Kraisorn replied: "We have not had any submarines for five decades since the last World War, and we do not know when an emergency will arise.
So, Thailand has been just fine for 50 years with no submarines. What has changed that Thailand needs them now? Also, no one has attacked Thailand since 1942 but it could happen. Of course, the enemy would have to wait until after six years of construction and three years of training and the enemy could not have any kind of advanced weaponry.

"It also takes at least three years to learn how to operate submarines properly and to build strong teamwork among 50 crew on board, so we need time to prepare ourselves just in case.
Just in case of what? Oh, right, just in case they want to surface and not die. It would take decades and billions of dollars to learn how to adequately apply the submarines in any military operation. It would be like a private citizen purchasing an armored tank. You know, because he must prepare himself just in case.

"More importantly, submarines are defensive strategic arms. We will purchase them to balance our power with neighbouring countries."

This guy wants to get into an arms race with his neighbors? Which neighbors did he have in mind, to defend against, when he came up with this brilliant idea? Texas is more likely to get attacked than Thailand and we are not considering buying submarines. I thought Thailand had a mutual defense treaty with the US to protect them from attack.

Just tell him to sell his 'lightly used' aircraft carrier to fund his pet submarine project because Thailand has more important things to spend 36 billion Baht on like flood/drought protection, education, infrastructure, farm support, business incentives, etc. than enriching Admirals and their families for generations.

Transparent Sea: The Unstealthy Future Of Submarines http://breakingdefense.com/2015/01/transparent-sea-the-unstealthy-future-of-submarines/

Screw the Thai people and common sense; I want my submarines!

.

Edited July 3, 2015 by rametindallas

[bheard]

Thailand needs submarines?

Can't see the logic of that. Thailand does not need submarines!