Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Emster23]

maybe there is some contradictory evidence that Brit police have found regarding DNA. I wouldn't expect it to be introduced until defense portion of trial begins. Give prosecution enough rope to hang themselves (been doing pretty good job so far, imho). If procedure anything like the west, defense does not have to share it's evidence with prosecution. But who knows? Prosecution has not been sharing it's evidence with defense, which is fairly much the standard in countries with functioning court system...

Oh, dear moderators: how about starting "Koh Tao trial Part 2" post topic? (and 3 and 4 etc). I sometimes wonder if I will get to final recent posts or if they are added to faster than I can read.... thank you

[djlest]

Are they reporting this in the local news? Ive not seen it on any nightly news on tv. I wonder why? This is a big case and worthy of coverage. Is it because it was only two farang killed and a couple of lowly burmese guys accused? Or are they under instructions not to make any mention of it?

I have noticed the same as you, its not on the news.

Dunno, but my guess it is not considered very news worthy.

Farang are taken out relatively frequently in LoS. And when kon Pama is involved, who cares.

My Guess: The military has asked to mute the case to prevent Thais fro becoming Unhappy again, after-all its tarnishing their Lilly white culture and police force

[thailandchilli]

Re Andy Hall's comment regarding the lack of 'interest' from Thai media. It could be that the Thai media has been 'warned off' reporting on this trial, in case it brings a backlash from the Thai populace. Internal face-threatening antagonism could be more serious to the ruling elite, than fielding foreign media by insinuating that they misunderstood. Thailand is all about Thailand, no-one else.

I would go as far to say that they couldn't give a s*it about the B2, the foreign media, or the views here on TVF. They couldn't give a sh*t about the defence or its (proposed) destruction of the prosecution's case. As long as there are stars in the sky, they'll carry on doing what they've been doing for centuries.

If I'm correct, it could be more likely that the trial would continue its course and that the B2 would be found guilty, despite everything. I think saving face over this is not even dreamt about at higher levels - unless the Thai populace intervenes.

Thus I would hope the defence don't miss out on educating and enlightening the masses along the way. That would be the straw that breaks officialdom's backs.

I believe you are right, despite the case being seriously flawed it rolls along and no matter what new evidence is presented by the defense it will still roll along with the occasional attempt at deflection of criticism by the big chief in Bangkok.

Oh the UK DNA does not match, there must have been some mistake in the UK forensics. Case proceeds.

One of the major problems is that when these revelations come out such as the lack of original DNA samples or the contradictions on the hoe and where it was and who wiped blood of it etc, they do not get adequately challenged in court because of the system. The experts are the police and the police witnesses, anybody else is shrugged off. The have been reports of this in the case already by the defense.

As far as the prosecution is concerned its just a script their following, the case is wrapped up, they don't even bother bringing some of the crime scene photos with them in their shopping trolley saying they had no budget for it!

My gut feeling now is that this new evidence the defense has from the UK is in fact DNA that contradicts the present DNA results and thats why they've been conveniently finished by the RTP forensics so they cannot be checked again.

[JohnThailandJohn]

it ain't new york city there, buddy.

'mafia' is the same word but has a different meaning. even different to bangkok or other cities.

think of small population with large land ownership. generations of land ownership.

they own the islands. police are under them.

This of course is the reason police early on had no problem publicly accusing them and humiliating them on only unsubstantiated rumor.

huh? You mean when the initial police team was following evidence - which led to announcing Mon and Nomsod as prime suspects? You can call that 'accusing them' if you want. Following evidence/leads and announcing suspects is what inspectors are supposed to do - it's part of their job description. However, JTJ, you mention 'humiliating them' in the same phrase. Well yes, perhaps the accused were humiliated by being named suspects. But look at what happened at the crime: a lot more than humiliation. Should we shed crocodile tears for men being 'humiliated' by being named as suspects? You can if you want. But not to worry, JTJ, your humiliated-for-3 days buddies were quickly declared innocent by the replacement head cop. So they're free forever - to do in the next uppity farang victims who don't submit to their sexual advances. Feel better now?

Interesting bit of incoherent deflection but the fact remains -- police has absolutely no issue what-so-ever naming them as suspects as they did many people early on before clearing them. So, it is lunacy to think they tiny island headsman's power trumps that of the Thai Police, investigators, forensic teams, witnesses, video, DNA, laboratories, UK observers ....

[arrowsdawdle]

Is Thai murder trial set to collapse?

KOH SAMUI: -- Families of British backpackers fly home as defence lawyers call for suspects to be acquitted over claims of missing evidence and crime-scene blunders

The families of murdered British backpackers Hannah Witheridge and David Miller flew home from Thailand yesterday as the legal team representing the accused claimed the case was on the verge of collapse.

Burmese migrants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo face a possible death penalty if they are convicted of sexually assaulting and killing Hannah, 23, with a hoe, and clubbing David, 24, unconscious before leaving him to drown on a beach on Kao Tao island last September.

Hannah’s father and brother, and David’s parents and brother last week flew to neighbouring Kao Samui for the three-day opening of the trial, where they were visibly shocked as photographs of the bodies were casually handed around the court.

The case – marred by claims of missing evidence and crime-scene blunders – was adjourned yesterday until July 22 while the defendants’ lawyers prepare to call for their acquittal.

‘We hope by the end of the prosecution case, we will have destroyed it and we will show that it is completely lacking in credibility,’ said Andy Hall, a British migrant rights activist working with defence lawyers.

Mr Hall said the defence held ‘incredibly significant information from an independent authority’ with which it would discredit the prosecution case when the trial reopens. He declined to give more details but the information is believed to relate to DNA samples obtained from Hannah’s body after it was returned to the UK.

Kao Tao’s migrant workers were subjected to mass DNA testing before Zaw and Wai, both 22, were arrested amid global media attention and intense pressure on police to find the killers.

The pair confessed to the murders but later withdrew their statements, claiming police had tortured them. Police insist they have DNA evidence linking them to the murders but said key samples could not be independently tested because they had been ‘used up’ by forensics teams. They also admitted the crime scene had been contaminated, and that the hoe was removed before it was forensically examined.

Police have been accused of making scapegoats of migrants amid claims that the real killers were Thai men linked to powerful families who are said to run Kao Tao.

David’s father said on Friday the families were ‘keeping an open mind’. The trial is due to last until September, with a verdict expected in October.

--Mail Online: 2015-07-12

Not testing the hoe is beyond incompetence to complicity.

[StealthEnergiser]

Hmmmmmmm, the farang hang 'em high brigade are unusually absent..........

You spoke to soon

[arrowsdawdle]

it ain't new york city there, buddy.

'mafia' is the same word but has a different meaning. even different to bangkok or other cities.

think of small population with large land ownership. generations of land ownership.

they own the islands. police are under them.

This of course is the reason police early on had no problem publicly accusing them and humiliating them on only unsubstantiated rumor.

huh? You mean when the initial police team was following evidence - which led to announcing Mon and Nomsod as prime suspects? You can call that 'accusing them' if you want. Following evidence/leads and announcing suspects is what inspectors are supposed to do - it's part of their job description. However, JTJ, you mention 'humiliating them' in the same phrase. Well yes, perhaps the accused were humiliated by being named suspects. But look at what happened at the crime: a lot more than humiliation. Should we shed crocodile tears for men being 'humiliated' by being named as suspects? You can if you want. But not to worry, JTJ, your humiliated-for-3 days buddies were quickly declared innocent by the replacement head cop. So they're free forever - to do in the next uppity farang victims who don't submit to their sexual advances. Feel better now?

Interesting bit of incoherent deflection but the fact remains -- police has absolutely no issue what-so-ever naming them as suspects as they did many people early on before clearing them. So, it is lunacy to think they tiny island headsman's power trumps that of the Thai Police, investigators, forensic teams, witnesses, video, DNA, laboratories, UK observers ....

Another press release....yawn.

[DLang]

Yes that section of the interview with the doctor starts at 16.40 unfortunately its all in Thai but I remember some posters on here months ago mentioning that he was saying that the wounds on David were caused by a knife?

I believe it was shown to be likely that the wounds were caused by a fistblade, or whatever they are called. Fit inside your fist and have a very nasty one inch blade protruding out through your fingers.

[bangkokrick]

Are they reporting this in the local news? Ive not seen it on any nightly news on tv. I wonder why? This is a big case and worthy of coverage. Is it because it was only two farang killed and a couple of lowly burmese guys accused? Or are they under instructions not to make any mention of it?

I have noticed the same as you, its not on the news.

Dunno, but my guess it is not considered very news worthy.

Farang are taken out relatively frequently in LoS. And when kon Pama is involved, who cares.

My Guess: The military has asked to mute the case to prevent Thais fro becoming Unhappy again, after-all its tarnishing their Lilly white culture and police force

The average Thai does not care a damn about this case and many will not even have heard of it s existence. They just happily carry on eating Somtam and watching soap operas, nothing else really matters.

[GOLDBUGGY]

September 25, 2014

This Media Report claims that DNA of 2 Asian Men found at the Crime Scene was in fact sent to Singapore for advanced analysis.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/thailand-murder-probe-last-photo-of-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-emerges/story-fnizu68q-1227070475319

[thailandchilli]

Yes that section of the interview with the doctor starts at 16.40 unfortunately its all in Thai but I remember some posters on here months ago mentioning that he was saying that the wounds on David were caused by a knife?

I believe it was shown to be likely that the wounds were caused by a fistblade, or whatever they are called. Fit inside your fist and have a very nasty one inch blade protruding out through your fingers.

Yes thanks DLang but did the doctor also say that? I'm aware the defense has a strong case to make on this with evidence that most of the wounds on David were caused by some sort of knife and not the Hoe, but I also thought the doctor in the vid mentioned a knife despite the fact that this is a direct contradiction to the prosecution case?

It is of course my opinion that it was also a knife and I'm sure the opinion of 99% of those who follow this case

[spidermike007]

birma guys...

not cambodians but the problem is the same.

the 3 or 4 real culprits are still running free.

If the 2 on trial are genuinely not responsible for these crimes, then the real culprits should right now be finding a way to take up residence in a country without an extradition treaty to Thailand. That is, if the real culprits did not leave the island the following morning on the first available ferry.

Not necessary. The real culprits are above the law. The family is more powerful than the general. This has been shown over and over again. Do not upset the status quo.

Spot On Crappy !!

Also many residents on Koh Tao knows exactly what happened their and who the guilty is...but will keep quiet and take this information to the grave with them.

Yes, it is spot on crappy, when a man who pretends to be so powerful, and so concerned with the welfare of his country, then bows down to pigs, swine, thugs, criminals, and the super powerful father of murderers. All in a grand effort to NOT upset the status quo. All in a grand effort to NOT change a thing. It is almost a reminder of all of the grand talk about sweeping change, that Blundering Barry made, while campaigning, compared to how little changed once he took power.

[stephenterry]

Re Andy Hall's comment regarding the lack of 'interest' from Thai media. It could be that the Thai media has been 'warned off' reporting on this trial, in case it brings a backlash from the Thai populace. Internal face-threatening antagonism could be more serious to the ruling elite, than fielding foreign media by insinuating that they misunderstood. Thailand is all about Thailand, no-one else.

I would go as far to say that they couldn't give a s*it about the B2, the foreign media, or the views here on TVF. They couldn't give a sh*t about the defence or its (proposed) destruction of the prosecution's case. As long as there are stars in the sky, they'll carry on doing what they've been doing for centuries.

If I'm correct, it could be more likely that the trial would continue its course and that the B2 would be found guilty, despite everything. I think saving face over this is not even dreamt about at higher levels - unless the Thai populace intervenes.

Thus I would hope the defence don't miss out on educating and enlightening the masses along the way. That would be the straw that breaks officialdom's backs.

I believe you are right, despite the case being seriously flawed it rolls along and no matter what new evidence is presented by the defense it will still roll along with the occasional attempt at deflection of criticism by the big chief in Bangkok.

Oh the UK DNA does not match, there must have been some mistake in the UK forensics. Case proceeds.

One of the major problems is that when these revelations come out such as the lack of original DNA samples or the contradictions on the hoe and where it was and who wiped blood of it etc, they do not get adequately challenged in court because of the system. The experts are the police and the police witnesses, anybody else is shrugged off. The have been reports of this in the case already by the defense.

As far as the prosecution is concerned its just a script their following, the case is wrapped up, they don't even bother bringing some of the crime scene photos with them in their shopping trolley saying they had no budget for it!

My gut feeling now is that this new evidence the defense has from the UK is in fact DNA that contradicts the present DNA results and thats why they've been conveniently finished by the RTP forensics so they cannot be checked again.

Agree. Re The CSI photos (if there were any): it could be that any close-ups of the victim's wounds could reveal a different supposition to that asserted by the RTP. Better to destroy all relevant samples, photos etc. - that way they could never be caught out on a blatant lie. 'Lost' or 'finished' - most of us on here didn't just arrive on the banana boat, nor do the majority of free-thinking and open-minded Thais - that's why it is important to get it published in the Thai media.

And your gut feel: if that is correct, presumably the UK coroner's office would retain the testing samples. The prosecution couldn't use the 'mistake in UK forensics' only that perhaps the samples were contaminated - and that could be the same counter-argument that the defence could use about the RTP's original sample collection. If only...

[blowin]

Are they reporting this in the local news? Ive not seen it on any nightly news on tv. I wonder why? This is a big case and worthy of coverage. Is it because it was only two farang killed and a couple of lowly burmese guys accused? Or are they under instructions not to make any mention of it?

I have noticed the same as you, its not on the news.

Dunno, but my guess it is not considered very news worthy.

Farang are taken out relatively frequently in LoS. And when kon Pama is involved, who cares.

My Guess: The military has asked to mute the case to prevent Thais fro becoming Unhappy again, after-all its tarnishing their Lilly white culture and police force

The average Thai does not care a damn about this case and many will not even have heard of it s existence. They just happily carry on eating Somtam and watching soap operas, nothing else really matters.

A lot of truth in that statement Bkkrick. But you failed to mention face, gold and Thai Bht also figure high in Thainess in the Land of smiles!

[loonodingle]

Re Andy Hall's comment regarding the lack of 'interest' from Thai media. It could be that the Thai media has been 'warned off' reporting on this trial, in case it brings a backlash from the Thai populace. Internal face-threatening antagonism could be more serious to the ruling elite, than fielding foreign media by insinuating that they misunderstood. Thailand is all about Thailand, no-one else.

I would go as far to say that they couldn't give a s*it about the B2, the foreign media, or the views here on TVF. They couldn't give a sh*t about the defence or its (proposed) destruction of the prosecution's case. As long as there are stars in the sky, they'll carry on doing what they've been doing for centuries.

If I'm correct, it could be more likely that the trial would continue its course and that the B2 would be found guilty, despite everything. I think saving face over this is not even dreamt about at higher levels - unless the Thai populace intervenes.

Thus I would hope the defence don't miss out on educating and enlightening the masses along the way. That would be the straw that breaks officialdom's backs.

I believe you are right, despite the case being seriously flawed it rolls along and no matter what new evidence is presented by the defense it will still roll along with the occasional attempt at deflection of criticism by the big chief in Bangkok.

Oh the UK DNA does not match, there must have been some mistake in the UK forensics. Case proceeds.

One of the major problems is that when these revelations come out such as the lack of original DNA samples or the contradictions on the hoe and where it was and who wiped blood of it etc, they do not get adequately challenged in court because of the system. The experts are the police and the police witnesses, anybody else is shrugged off. The have been reports of this in the case already by the defense.

As far as the prosecution is concerned its just a script their following, the case is wrapped up, they don't even bother bringing some of the crime scene photos with them in their shopping trolley saying they had no budget for it!

My gut feeling now is that this new evidence the defense has from the UK is in fact DNA that contradicts the present DNA results and thats why they've been conveniently finished by the RTP forensics so they cannot be checked again.

The expert Mike Moulden that is the expert field of expertise is CRIME SCENE forensics. Whilst he will no doubt have DNA expertise my gut feeling is the crime scene and what really took place. What wounds the body has that contradicts the version put forward.

Have you seen the guys CV?

[loonodingle]

it ain't new york city there, buddy.

'mafia' is the same word but has a different meaning. even different to bangkok or other cities.

think of small population with large land ownership. generations of land ownership.

they own the islands. police are under them.

This of course is the reason police early on had no problem publicly accusing them and humiliating them on only unsubstantiated rumor.

huh? You mean when the initial police team was following evidence - which led to announcing Mon and Nomsod as prime suspects? You can call that 'accusing them' if you want. Following evidence/leads and announcing suspects is what inspectors are supposed to do - it's part of their job description. However, JTJ, you mention 'humiliating them' in the same phrase. Well yes, perhaps the accused were humiliated by being named suspects. But look at what happened at the crime: a lot more than humiliation. Should we shed crocodile tears for men being 'humiliated' by being named as suspects? You can if you want. But not to worry, JTJ, your humiliated-for-3 days buddies were quickly declared innocent by the replacement head cop. So they're free forever - to do in the next uppity farang victims who don't submit to their sexual advances. Feel better now?

Interesting bit of incoherent deflection but the fact remains -- police has absolutely no issue what-so-ever naming them as suspects as they did many people early on before clearing them. So, it is lunacy to think they tiny island headsman's power trumps that of the Thai Police, investigators, forensic teams, witnesses, video, DNA, laboratories, UK observers ....

It can't be that incoherent as u have managed to be interested in it JTJ.

You also need to watch Sonth's video with sub titles to get a better understanding of Thailand and the culture that's inbred into how they work.

[loonodingle]

https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/michael-riggs-moulden/16/289/73a

CV FOR THE EXPERT.

[stephenterry]

Re Andy Hall's comment regarding the lack of 'interest' from Thai media. It could be that the Thai media has been 'warned off' reporting on this trial, in case it brings a backlash from the Thai populace. Internal face-threatening antagonism could be more serious to the ruling elite, than fielding foreign media by insinuating that they misunderstood. Thailand is all about Thailand, no-one else.

I would go as far to say that they couldn't give a s*it about the B2, the foreign media, or the views here on TVF. They couldn't give a sh*t about the defence or its (proposed) destruction of the prosecution's case. As long as there are stars in the sky, they'll carry on doing what they've been doing for centuries.

If I'm correct, it could be more likely that the trial would continue its course and that the B2 would be found guilty, despite everything. I think saving face over this is not even dreamt about at higher levels - unless the Thai populace intervenes.

Thus I would hope the defence don't miss out on educating and enlightening the masses along the way. That would be the straw that breaks officialdom's backs.

I believe you are right, despite the case being seriously flawed it rolls along and no matter what new evidence is presented by the defense it will still roll along with the occasional attempt at deflection of criticism by the big chief in Bangkok.

Oh the UK DNA does not match, there must have been some mistake in the UK forensics. Case proceeds.

One of the major problems is that when these revelations come out such as the lack of original DNA samples or the contradictions on the hoe and where it was and who wiped blood of it etc, they do not get adequately challenged in court because of the system. The experts are the police and the police witnesses, anybody else is shrugged off. The have been reports of this in the case already by the defense.

As far as the prosecution is concerned its just a script their following, the case is wrapped up, they don't even bother bringing some of the crime scene photos with them in their shopping trolley saying they had no budget for it!

My gut feeling now is that this new evidence the defense has from the UK is in fact DNA that contradicts the present DNA results and thats why they've been conveniently finished by the RTP forensics so they cannot be checked again.

The expert Mike Moulden that is the expert field of expertise is CRIME SCENE forensics. Whilst he will no doubt have DNA expertise my gut feeling is the crime scene and what really took place. What wounds the body has that contradicts the version put forward.

Have you seen the guys CV?

The CV is impressive. However, whatever he presents to the court, unless it's alive and kicking, will be dismissed by the prosecution/police witnesses using the simple counter phrase 'we are the experts, he is mistaken'.

IMO, that is (in essence) what will happen as it's already happened in the trial. And that's the end of it. No more cross-examining. Down to the judge to decide on whose evidence to rely on.

[DennisF]

70 pages and plenty of already turned over earth with just a smidging of nuggets worth reading.

SadpersoninAsia continues his petulance and adds nothing and JTJ has changed from issuing statements in support of

the RTP to making farcical and badly written insults. You disapoint me JTJ, I had you marked down as a bit sharper than that.

Attacks on Crabby are also without foundation as he has always related facts and opinion, not taking the fence stake out of his posterior,

fence sitting and observations to enrage others are his hobbies!

Overall the trial seems to be going exactly the way many expected, all we do not know is whether it will collapse or blunder on with the inevitable guilty verdict at the end of it.

Brits have something but what it is, we do not know nor do we know what kind of evidence the "foreigner" will bring to the trial.

But will any of the "new" or contradictory evidence really matter in this trial?

We can only hope.

[DM07]

Are they reporting this in the local news? Ive not seen it on any nightly news on tv. I wonder why? This is a big case and worthy of coverage. Is it because it was only two farang killed and a couple of lowly burmese guys accused? Or are they under instructions not to make any mention of it?

I have noticed the same as you, its not on the news.

Dunno, but my guess it is not considered very news worthy.

Farang are taken out relatively frequently in LoS. And when kon Pama is involved, who cares.

My Guess: The military has asked to mute the case to prevent Thais fro becoming Unhappy again, after-all its tarnishing their Lilly white culture and police force

The average Thai does not care a damn about this case and many will not even have heard of it s existence. They just happily carry on eating Somtam and watching soap operas, nothing else really matters.

That's weird...I know a whole bunch, who know it, discuss it and have unanimously stated, that it is a farce and the B2 are scapegoats.

[phuketandsee]

Are they reporting this in the local news? Ive not seen it on any nightly news on tv. I wonder why? This is a big case and worthy of coverage. Is it because it was only two farang killed and a couple of lowly burmese guys accused? Or are they under instructions not to make any mention of it?

I have noticed the same as you, its not on the news.

Dunno, but my guess it is not considered very news worthy.

Farang are taken out relatively frequently in LoS. And when kon Pama is involved, who cares.

My Guess: The military has asked to mute the case to prevent Thais fro becoming Unhappy again, after-all its tarnishing their Lilly white culture and police force

The average Thai does not care a damn about this case and many will not even have heard of it s existence. They just happily carry on eating Somtam and watching soap operas, nothing else really matters.

I'm not so sure about that. The "average Thai" maybe, but by no means all. CSILA aimed at a Thai audience has close to 450,000 followers and many Thais have to deal with this crap on a daily basis and are hoping this might change something

[bangkokrick]

Hi Blowin,

I cant reply directly for some reason.

Yes Blowin I understand the big three, but you know if the foreign media were not involved this would have just quietly disappeared due apathy and total acceptance that 'they know what they are doing'. Pass me the fish sauce,

[pinkpanther99]

Does this mean there will be a break in proceedings until the 22nd?

[GOLDBUGGY]

October 02, 2014

Media Reports states that 3 Migrant Workers, ( 2 accused and 1 witness) were picked up on the Thai Main Land in the Port City of Surat Thani after they left the Island of Koh Tao and where the Rape and Murders took place.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11135629/Burmese-man-confesses-to-murder-of-British-backpackers-Hannah-Witheridge-and-David-Miller.html

[DKUNPUTAF713]

I see that a shopping cart has been seen in the court room (prosecution side of the fence) does any one know where

(perhaps BIG C or possibly TESCO-LOTUS) the Police/prosecution may have gone shopping for their evidence????

[stephenterry]

Does this mean there will be a break in proceedings until the 22nd?

Yes it does, but it's news that it will be for three consecutive days from 22nd. And IMO, this is the critical evidence. If the defence have their expert available, it could lead to a lot of fireworks - if they are permitted to challenge the witnesses.

[ABCer]

For those who don't undrstand the Thainess of this case look at the following with English subtitles available.

Sondhi may be a controversial character but he doesn't give a sh*t what he says and will call a spade a spade, if he feels like it. Some one so important that he couldn't be investigated tried to have him assassinated and even that hasn't stopped him. BTW the police chief at the time of his attempted assassination was the brother of Prawit, who is mentioned in the clip as giving the green light for the alleged frame up. He is now head of security of the NCPO and as a former army chief, who promoted Prayut, is his alleged mentor and leader of the 'Eastern Tigers' army faction.

I hope the translation (subtitles) is wrong.

I hope this is another case of mass 'misunderstanding'.

Because if it is true and correct it is a condemnation of the very concept of "Thainess".

How can such an ugly thing hope to be a part of ASEAN?

Unless the rest of ASEAN countries are without any morals or dignity?

[metisdead]

Troll posts have been removed. An off topic post has been removed as well.

[Linky]

thailandchilli

What was it you said in an earlier post "I'm just one who is prepared to wait and continue reading the many satirical posts dreamt up by the experts."

Sounds like you've now joined in the many satirical posts you apparently identified.

My little jibe was just a reflection on what he wrote, nothing more, nothing less, so yes a little satire. Being select in what you want to have a dig about? Take the whole post in context and you well know that I was referring to some of the ridiculous theories and scenarios being put forward as objective views and conclusions to this incident.

Yep your little jibe that I was selectively highlighting, nothing more, nothing less.

Which particular ridiculous theories are you referring to?

I'll start with the first example:

Many months ago I saw on CSILA a post stating that Hannah may have been shot. I read and found it way out there, no possibility for this. But then an expert from Belgium did some scientific studies on it. It got me thinking but after a few days I again dismissed it as ridiculous.

Fast forward to a few days ago when this came up again, this time from a credible newspaper The Times who said they had seen photos which they said showed possible shrapnel wounds on Hannah. Then we get reports that the defense is going to be saying that this is what happened and that they also have new "very significant evidence" from the UK autopsy reports and other sources.

So maybe this is not such a ridiculous theory after all. Not saying that its true but apparently if the reports are true then its a strong possibility.

I have other examples of what you call ridiculous theories or what a handful of other posters called conspiracy theories that are now being proved to be correct but I'll let you respond to this first.

I think the differences in our opinions from what I make out from your original post on here is that you are prepared to wait to see the results of the trial and apparently be happy that justice will be done based on those results?

I'm a million miles from there, the trial process and the evidence presented so far or lack of, is a major concern, how can a fair conviction be made when no origianl DNA samples from Hannah existto recheck. The samples were collected by the RTP, analysed and tested by the RTP and reports delivered by the RTP. Can you trust that? Sorry I cant.

Come on you're not that dumb, you know as well as I do what I am referring to because you have been following the case just as much as most on here. You have given a prime example, fine, but to think the Times is credible, please. Anyone can print anything, just does not mean it's true because its in print. If you want to see some ridiculous examples, do what I did, read the sixty odd pages, you will find many.

Yes, I am prepared to wait until the conclusion of the trail, it can go either way, we do not know but because one wants to wait, is that a problem. Or do I have to convict them or pronounce their innocence now just to keep everyone happy. There has been an overwhelming support for the two, and there are many who have made inane comments in respect to their guilt, so I am not one sided when criticising.

What evidence has been presented or the lack of it. I don't know, do you, or are you relying on the good old media again or what some are spouting on here? As far as the DNA is concerned, all you can theorise about is what has been reported. It might be factual, it might not but if all we have to rely on is what is reported, then one would have to be cautious in their summation because you just don't know.

I have said many times that the police, from the time they commenced their investigation, left a lot to be desired, so I will go one step further, given what has been reported and suggest that they were inept and may have acted criminally in the way they allowed the crime scene to be contaminated, failed to use proper procedures when collecting evidence and made spurious allegations as to who was and wasn't involved. There was absolutely no need for a running commentary from them and yes, it did them more harm than good and made them look worse than the keystone cops. But that doesn't all evidence captured has been tainted or that the Prosecution is in cahoots with others to convict the defendants because they must.

In so far as the trail, has any poster on TV attend the trail, is sufficiently fluent in Thai to understand the process and then reported back their findings so those with infinite wisdom can reach a conclusion, thus pronouncing their guilt or innocence? I thought this was the role of the judge. But then we have those on here who are also critical of him. If they are found guilty and, as many will say, justice has not been served, then what am I able to do, rectify it, or join the bandwagon and criticise all and sundry for, as many allege, tampering with or contaminating the evidence. setting up innocents or just having a show trail, where the decision, of the guilt or innocence, has been predetermined? That is not for me to decide but yes, like you, I can have an opinion be it right or wrong.

They have a defence team, including the criminal advocate, Andy Hall, plus the media, the latter who are cajoling everyone and it is up to them to provide a defence that can destroy the credibility of the police, witnesses, etc., thus showing that the prosecution has failed to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. If everything is as claimed, that the evidence has been lost, that they are scapegoats, that there is a conspiracy between police and the headman and his family, it goes on and on, then it is up to the defence to highlight these failures and criminal activities through cross examination, if they know how, thus convincing the judge of the defendants' innocence. If all are corrupt, as many are alleging and then multitude of sins allegedly committed by the investigating police and their alleged conspirators, then it should be an easy enough task, don't you think?.

In View of the Trauma it would likely cause Hannahs parents I doubt very much if the times published false information. In fact I bet there lawyers were all over before it went to print.

In fact I would imagine they have already been told this information and didn't wake up to read one sunday morning. Hence their non committal comments at the trial.

So it's true because it's in print. Do you believe everything that you read?. Oh you'd have to, it's on TVF so it must be true. As far as their lawyers being all over it is an assumption on your behalf. So you have never read a storey, that later proved to be false and the newspapers have been sued for defamation. I suppose their lawyers were all over it as well. They sure were, after the writs were issued. Did I say they printed false information, no, I just said that because it's in print, it does not mean it's true.

I am sure the parents are still traumatised and will be for a long time but if you say newspapers take into consideration people's feelings and the sensitivities surrounding incidents that they report on, then I'll have to disagree. They'll print and sensationalise incidents so they can sell newspapers, not to safeguard the feelings of others. You ought to apply the same thinking to some of the posters on here as to the trauma they would inflict on the parents should they read some of the insensitive remarks made.

You assume a lot, don't you?

Where do you get information from about this case to form your opinion. Perhaps you read about it?

[evadgib]

Why quote all previous text for such a short reply?