Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[thailandchilli]

thailandchilli

What was it you said in an earlier post "I'm just one who is prepared to wait and continue reading the many satirical posts dreamt up by the experts."

Sounds like you've now joined in the many satirical posts you apparently identified.

My little jibe was just a reflection on what he wrote, nothing more, nothing less, so yes a little satire. Being select in what you want to have a dig about? Take the whole post in context and you well know that I was referring to some of the ridiculous theories and scenarios being put forward as objective views and conclusions to this incident.

Yep your little jibe that I was selectively highlighting, nothing more, nothing less.

Which particular ridiculous theories are you referring to?

I'll start with the first example:

Many months ago I saw on CSILA a post stating that Hannah may have been shot. I read and found it way out there, no possibility for this. But then an expert from Belgium did some scientific studies on it. It got me thinking but after a few days I again dismissed it as ridiculous.

Fast forward to a few days ago when this came up again, this time from a credible newspaper The Times who said they had seen photos which they said showed possible shrapnel wounds on Hannah. Then we get reports that the defense is going to be saying that this is what happened and that they also have new "very significant evidence" from the UK autopsy reports and other sources.

So maybe this is not such a ridiculous theory after all. Not saying that its true but apparently if the reports are true then its a strong possibility.

I have other examples of what you call ridiculous theories or what a handful of other posters called conspiracy theories that are now being proved to be correct but I'll let you respond to this first.

I think the differences in our opinions from what I make out from your original post on here is that you are prepared to wait to see the results of the trial and apparently be happy that justice will be done based on those results?

I'm a million miles from there, the trial process and the evidence presented so far or lack of, is a major concern, how can a fair conviction be made when no origianl DNA samples from Hannah existto recheck. The samples were collected by the RTP, analysed and tested by the RTP and reports delivered by the RTP. Can you trust that? Sorry I cant.

[Thaidream]

Fifty years experience in Thailand- don't ever cause a Thai person to lose face. Therein lies the truth of this case.

[boomerangutang]

So the guy is powerful and stupid. OK

If some of you guys want to have a go at me, fine. I said months ago that these guys won't be able to pull this off if the B2 are truly non-complicit and a bunch of you had a go at me back then telling me how powerful this guy was and could make things appear or disappear at will.

I'll post the link again if you want.

I believe the B2 are non-complicit (to use your term), but there's also a good chance they'll get nailed by Thai officialdom. Due process and justice aren't top priorities in a case like this. More important is making sure the H's people don't get mentioned - and certainly don't get hauled in to court as defendants. Another important aspect is money, and lots of it. We may never know if big money or gifts have changed hands for favors, but such things are common in Thailand - particularly among rich and important people - protecting their immediate family members.

Well, time to go. I have seen and heard enough speculation and I don't want to speculate on anything. I am sure that justice well be served in a court of law.

After plodding thru your many speculative long-winded posts, often based on mis-guided assumptions, all I can say to you is, bye bye.

Sorry to retrack my last statement but I just realized the accused were allowed to do this, so why not me. I never said Good Bye to you boomerangutang, and somehow this did not feel right to me. So Good Bye.

May I close my last post here on this subject from a quote from the Good Book (Bible) from Matthew 15:14

"When the blind lead the blind, they both shall fall into the pit"

How 'bout, "the truth shall set you free."

In reference to 'blind leading the blind:' It appears RTP and the Headman's people conspired to frame the B2. They weren't blind. They were scheming with seeing eyes wide open. And they're falling into a pit - a pit of getting caught in their lies.

[Linky]

out to you General Payuth Chan (O) Cha - you really need to take a very big interest in this case as the damage to Thailand will be far reaching - something is very wrong with this case and if you want international credit pr even National credit then you need to get involved and start getting were it's at.....the truth, and hold those people who tried to distort justice accountable, show everyone that Thailand is turning a corner and will no longer tolerate these Mafia heads who ruin tourism with their greed and lies and MURDER

I find it quite disturbing that the Prime Minister of the country would state that the Burmese are guilty of the offense before trial and a judge's verdict.

I also find it disturbing that the trial was held in Samui where there could be interference and hence unfair trial.

In the UK, the defense would request and be given a court in an independent county/province or such a high profile case would be held in London - Old Bailey.

Why do people keep writing this stuff? "In the UK" this would happen or "in the US the judge would..."

For God's sake TIT!

Thats the whole point. TIT, indicating it is way below that expected in more enlightened countries. TIT = no words can describe how bad it is.

[Thaidream]

Innocents amongst the wolves- Westerners on vacation- having a good time- drinking and interacting with locals- the wrong thing is said or implied- maybe a language or communication issue- someone goes ballistic. Face is lost. The result is tragic.

[StealthEnergiser]

Does anyone have another photo of the condom that was alleged to be found as I recall it was very clean , this one is not clean.

[thailandchilli]

Does anyone have another photo of the condom that was alleged to be found as I recall it was very clean , this one is not clean.

cdkohtao.jpg

This is the only one I have

[loonodingle]

The only important thing is the proof that the DNA found in Hannah's body belongs to the 2 Burmese. The other elements come only in supplement.

All the rest is barren drivel that does not honor its authors.

There is no proof that's the problem. just someone's word and no checkable evidence. In any death penalty case verifiable evidence is the only internationally acceptable way. If you have nothing to hide don't hide it.

DNA and be found on items years and years old so finished is hog was you need just Nano grams for a sample. You wouldn't throw the fag butt or condom in the bin would you. Perhaps you would but if it was your son on trial you would soon jump up and down

[oldsailor35]

The reason that the b2 were arrested is that the rtp did not think that they had the resources to challenge their case. Arrogance has a price.

What is obvious to most that live in Thailand is that the RTP have been conducting this kind of corruption for so long with ease, that they just stumbled along after the "brown paper bag" was handed over, using the 2 Burmese as fall guys. Never dreaming for one moment that anyone, least of all the foreign media would take any notice of the final result. They have in fact made an awful "balls up" of their habit.

[cumgranosalum]

The key to this is the phrase "all remaining forensic evidence" - wghat about all the evidence that is "finished" or "lost" - - incomplete trial that now appears to be running on evidence that for whatever reason, no longer exists....

[cumgranosalum]

The key to this is the phrase "all remaining forensic evidence" - wghat about all the evidence that is "finished" or "lost" - - incomplete trial that now appears to be running on evidence that for whatever reason, no longer exists....

[melvinmelvin]

Are they reporting this in the local news? Ive not seen it on any nightly news on tv. I wonder why? This is a big case and worthy of coverage. Is it because it was only two farang killed and a couple of lowly burmese guys accused? Or are they under instructions not to make any mention of it?

I have noticed the same as you, its not on the news.

Dunno, but my guess it is not considered very news worthy.

Farang are taken out relatively frequently in LoS. And when kon Pama is involved, who cares.

[shafty]

The headman connections are already well known and easy to verify! His power is therefore not limited to "his" island.

Would be so nice if the press would publish something about that! They are not forced to stick to suspects and it would make a great story...

There are single hotels on Koh Samui that are worth more than his entire KT land holdings. He may run Koh Tao like a private fiefdom but I've seen no indication, especially with the first week's trial proceedings, that he has any real power once off the island, well known as you say are his connections.

As said before... His Power in this case has probably not so much to do with his position on KT.

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

[StealthEnergiser]

I see Sean Mcanna has changed his name. The guilty parties(IMO) The Island mafia were wanting to kill him, I wonder why? He should on the stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5_Pkc3Ja7U

My heart is so thumping now.

Everyone must listen to these songs he's written and singing. Watch all the videos.

I'm without words.

he should be investigated and questioned again if he didn't see anything he must no more than he is letting on.

[Bung]

I recall the Malaysian authorities were shocked at being asked difficult questions about mh370, these were officials that just weren't used to being treated like that by foreigners.

I feel the rtp are a bit like that, they are used to just doing what they want and come up with the most ridiculous answers that they expect everyone to believe them. I dont think they are used to foreigners asking difficult questions. I beleive they also feel the burmese are little more than dogs and have zero empathy towards them. Im sure they would be happy to just throw them in jail forever and have this whole business over and done with and they are wondering what all the fuss is about!

[MaxLee]

The key to this is the phrase "all remaining forensic evidence" - wghat about all the evidence that is "finished" or "lost" - - incomplete trial that now appears to be running on evidence that for whatever reason, no longer exists....

that's what you call Paid in advance to save face...........

This is Thailand and this is Thai justice

What did you expect?

[melvinmelvin]

I recall the Malaysian authorities were shocked at being asked difficult questions about mh370, these were officials that just weren't used to being treated like that by foreigners.

I feel the rtp are a bit like that, they are used to just doing what they want and come up with the most ridiculous answers that they expect everyone to believe them. I dont think they are used to foreigners asking difficult questions. I beleive they also feel the burmese are little more than dogs and have zero empathy towards them. Im sure they would be happy to just throw them in jail forever and have this whole business over and done with and they are wondering what all the fuss is about!

I don't think your comment is very far off what has been/is taking place.

[phuketandsee]

I recall the Malaysian authorities were shocked at being asked difficult questions about mh370, these were officials that just weren't used to being treated like that by foreigners.

I feel the rtp are a bit like that, they are used to just doing what they want and come up with the most ridiculous answers that they expect everyone to believe them. I dont think they are used to foreigners asking difficult questions. I beleive they also feel the burmese are little more than dogs and have zero empathy towards them. Im sure they would be happy to just throw them in jail forever and have this whole business over and done with and they are wondering what all the fuss is about!

I don't think your comment is very far off what has been/is taking place.

I would characterize it as dead on

[loonodingle]

he should be investigated and questioned again if he didn't see anything he must no more than he is letting on.

seanfacebook.jpg

I have these from an earlier post someone made

[Si Thea01]

thailandchilli

What was it you said in an earlier post "I'm just one who is prepared to wait and continue reading the many satirical posts dreamt up by the experts."

Sounds like you've now joined in the many satirical posts you apparently identified.

My little jibe was just a reflection on what he wrote, nothing more, nothing less, so yes a little satire. Being select in what you want to have a dig about? Take the whole post in context and you well know that I was referring to some of the ridiculous theories and scenarios being put forward as objective views and conclusions to this incident.

Yep your little jibe that I was selectively highlighting, nothing more, nothing less.

Which particular ridiculous theories are you referring to?

I'll start with the first example:

Many months ago I saw on CSILA a post stating that Hannah may have been shot. I read and found it way out there, no possibility for this. But then an expert from Belgium did some scientific studies on it. It got me thinking but after a few days I again dismissed it as ridiculous.

Fast forward to a few days ago when this came up again, this time from a credible newspaper The Times who said they had seen photos which they said showed possible shrapnel wounds on Hannah. Then we get reports that the defense is going to be saying that this is what happened and that they also have new "very significant evidence" from the UK autopsy reports and other sources.

So maybe this is not such a ridiculous theory after all. Not saying that its true but apparently if the reports are true then its a strong possibility.

I have other examples of what you call ridiculous theories or what a handful of other posters called conspiracy theories that are now being proved to be correct but I'll let you respond to this first.

I think the differences in our opinions from what I make out from your original post on here is that you are prepared to wait to see the results of the trial and apparently be happy that justice will be done based on those results?

I'm a million miles from there, the trial process and the evidence presented so far or lack of, is a major concern, how can a fair conviction be made when no origianl DNA samples from Hannah existto recheck. The samples were collected by the RTP, analysed and tested by the RTP and reports delivered by the RTP. Can you trust that? Sorry I cant.

Come on you're not that dumb, you know as well as I do what I am referring to because you have been following the case just as much as most on here. You have given a prime example, fine, but to think the Times is credible, please. Anyone can print anything, just does not mean it's true because its in print. If you want to see some ridiculous examples, do what I did, read the sixty odd pages, you will find many.

Yes, I am prepared to wait until the conclusion of the trail, it can go either way, we do not know but because one wants to wait, is that a problem. Or do I have to convict them or pronounce their innocence now just to keep everyone happy. There has been an overwhelming support for the two, and there are many who have made inane comments in respect to their guilt, so I am not one sided when criticising.

What evidence has been presented or the lack of it. I don't know, do you, or are you relying on the good old media again or what some are spouting on here? As far as the DNA is concerned, all you can theorise about is what has been reported. It might be factual, it might not but if all we have to rely on is what is reported, then one would have to be cautious in their summation because you just don't know.

I have said many times that the police, from the time they commenced their investigation, left a lot to be desired, so I will go one step further, given what has been reported and suggest that they were inept and may have acted criminally in the way they allowed the crime scene to be contaminated, failed to use proper procedures when collecting evidence and made spurious allegations as to who was and wasn't involved. There was absolutely no need for a running commentary from them and yes, it did them more harm than good and made them look worse than the keystone cops. But that doesn't all evidence captured has been tainted or that the Prosecution is in cahoots with others to convict the defendants because they must.

In so far as the trail, has any poster on TV attend the trail, is sufficiently fluent in Thai to understand the process and then reported back their findings so those with infinite wisdom can reach a conclusion, thus pronouncing their guilt or innocence? I thought this was the role of the judge. But then we have those on here who are also critical of him. If they are found guilty and, as many will say, justice has not been served, then what am I able to do, rectify it, or join the bandwagon and criticise all and sundry for, as many allege, tampering with or contaminating the evidence. setting up innocents or just having a show trail, where the decision, of the guilt or innocence, has been predetermined? That is not for me to decide but yes, like you, I can have an opinion be it right or wrong.

They have a defence team, including the criminal advocate, Andy Hall, plus the media, the latter who are cajoling everyone and it is up to them to provide a defence that can destroy the credibility of the police, witnesses, etc., thus showing that the prosecution has failed to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. If everything is as claimed, that the evidence has been lost, that they are scapegoats, that there is a conspiracy between police and the headman and his family, it goes on and on, then it is up to the defence to highlight these failures and criminal activities through cross examination, if they know how, thus convincing the judge of the defendants' innocence. If all are corrupt, as many are alleging and then multitude of sins allegedly committed by the investigating police and their alleged conspirators, then it should be an easy enough task, don't you think?.

[loonodingle]

thailandchilli

What was it you said in an earlier post "I'm just one who is prepared to wait and continue reading the many satirical posts dreamt up by the experts."

Sounds like you've now joined in the many satirical posts you apparently identified.

My little jibe was just a reflection on what he wrote, nothing more, nothing less, so yes a little satire. Being select in what you want to have a dig about? Take the whole post in context and you well know that I was referring to some of the ridiculous theories and scenarios being put forward as objective views and conclusions to this incident.

Yep your little jibe that I was selectively highlighting, nothing more, nothing less.

Which particular ridiculous theories are you referring to?

I'll start with the first example:

Many months ago I saw on CSILA a post stating that Hannah may have been shot. I read and found it way out there, no possibility for this. But then an expert from Belgium did some scientific studies on it. It got me thinking but after a few days I again dismissed it as ridiculous.

Fast forward to a few days ago when this came up again, this time from a credible newspaper The Times who said they had seen photos which they said showed possible shrapnel wounds on Hannah. Then we get reports that the defense is going to be saying that this is what happened and that they also have new "very significant evidence" from the UK autopsy reports and other sources.

So maybe this is not such a ridiculous theory after all. Not saying that its true but apparently if the reports are true then its a strong possibility.

I have other examples of what you call ridiculous theories or what a handful of other posters called conspiracy theories that are now being proved to be correct but I'll let you respond to this first.

I think the differences in our opinions from what I make out from your original post on here is that you are prepared to wait to see the results of the trial and apparently be happy that justice will be done based on those results?

I'm a million miles from there, the trial process and the evidence presented so far or lack of, is a major concern, how can a fair conviction be made when no origianl DNA samples from Hannah existto recheck. The samples were collected by the RTP, analysed and tested by the RTP and reports delivered by the RTP. Can you trust that? Sorry I cant.

Come on you're not that dumb, you know as well as I do what I am referring to because you have been following the case just as much as most on here. You have given a prime example, fine, but to think the Times is credible, please. Anyone can print anything, just does not mean it's true because its in print. If you want to see some ridiculous examples, do what I did, read the sixty odd pages, you will find many.

Yes, I am prepared to wait until the conclusion of the trail, it can go either way, we do not know but because one wants to wait, is that a problem. Or do I have to convict them or pronounce their innocence now just to keep everyone happy. There has been an overwhelming support for the two, and there are many who have made inane comments in respect to their guilt, so I am not one sided when criticising.

What evidence has been presented or the lack of it. I don't know, do you, or are you relying on the good old media again or what some are spouting on here? As far as the DNA is concerned, all you can theorise about is what has been reported. It might be factual, it might not but if all we have to rely on is what is reported, then one would have to be cautious in their summation because you just don't know.

I have said many times that the police, from the time they commenced their investigation, left a lot to be desired, so I will go one step further, given what has been reported and suggest that they were inept and may have acted criminally in the way they allowed the crime scene to be contaminated, failed to use proper procedures when collecting evidence and made spurious allegations as to who was and wasn't involved. There was absolutely no need for a running commentary from them and yes, it did them more harm than good and made them look worse than the keystone cops. But that doesn't all evidence captured has been tainted or that the Prosecution is in cahoots with others to convict the defendants because they must.

In so far as the trail, has any poster on TV attend the trail, is sufficiently fluent in Thai to understand the process and then reported back their findings so those with infinite wisdom can reach a conclusion, thus pronouncing their guilt or innocence? I thought this was the role of the judge. But then we have those on here who are also critical of him. If they are found guilty and, as many will say, justice has not been served, then what am I able to do, rectify it, or join the bandwagon and criticise all and sundry for, as many allege, tampering with or contaminating the evidence. setting up innocents or just having a show trail, where the decision, of the guilt or innocence, has been predetermined? That is not for me to decide but yes, like you, I can have an opinion be it right or wrong.

They have a defence team, including the criminal advocate, Andy Hall, plus the media, the latter who are cajoling everyone and it is up to them to provide a defence that can destroy the credibility of the police, witnesses, etc., thus showing that the prosecution has failed to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. If everything is as claimed, that the evidence has been lost, that they are scapegoats, that there is a conspiracy between police and the headman and his family, it goes on and on, then it is up to the defence to highlight these failures and criminal activities through cross examination, if they know how, thus convincing the judge of the defendants' innocence. If all are corrupt, as many are alleging and then multitude of sins allegedly committed by the investigating police and their alleged conspirators, then it should be an easy enough task, don't you think?.

In View of the Trauma it would likely cause Hannahs parents I doubt very much if the times published false information. In fact I bet there lawyers were all over before it went to print.

In fact I would imagine they have already been told this information and didn't wake up to read one sunday morning. Hence their non committal comments at the trial.

[bunglebag]

Bangkok Air has two flight leaving Ko Samui on Monday mornings:

one leaves at 6am and arrives BKK: 7:04. the other is 7:45 arriving at 8:50

How long would it take to get to Nomsod's University apartment from airport?

The crime wrapped up at 5 am. Taking a fast boat to Samui, I assume would take less than an hour.

Even considering the above data, I suspect if he took a flight to Bkk on Monday morning, 15th September, he would have opted to do it via Chumpon. Just a hunch on my part. It's all moot, because it's very doubtful either Bangkok Air or Nok Air is going to release any data which would anger a KT headman who is allegedly mafia-like.

<snip>

... and he would had even had some extra time if he had bought his ticket the day before.

I would not know where to find it, so only speculation but there was suggestion that he flew out of Surat on the first flight, flying under his fathers name.

After taking the "little duck" and having to ask directions from fishermen on the way to the mainland.

Yes these were some of the early stories, first few days. I wonder if that speedboat driver found hiding in a cave has ever had anything to do with Little Duck (name of boat, or a boat belonging to Little Duck Tours & Restaurant, Koh Samui, or both?).

If the flight aspect is true then I would have thought that under the circumstances he would not fly under his or his father's name if possible but who knows. How much id is required for an internal flight?

[Thesticle]

It's all very good debating about what might of happened but I have yet to hear what is actually really going on in the courtroom. I realize that observevers are limited in the fact that they are barred from taking notes but surely there must be a source that is out there that can give us a blow by blow account of what is going on. From all the the information of the testimonies it must account for about half an hour of the trial. How much discussion has been had on the DNA here in comparison to how much real time it took to discuss in court. I have been in grossed by this , it's sickening.

[sgtsabai]

You answered your own question. There is no true reporting from inside the courtroom and many reporters have not even had access. One translator was scared of by the mafia. For the shills supporting the island mafia/rtp they will always say the reporting isn't accurate. Well they do have a point when the reporter has to rely on memory. There is no way to prove accuracy, as there is no way to prove accuracy of any of the so-called evidence against the B2.

[boomerangutang]

Bangkok Air has two flight leaving Ko Samui on Monday mornings:

one leaves at 6am and arrives BKK: 7:04. the other is 7:45 arriving at 8:50

How long would it take to get to Nomsod's University apartment from airport?

The crime wrapped up at 5 am. Taking a fast boat to Samui, I assume would take less than an hour.

Even considering the above data, I suspect if he took a flight to Bkk on Monday morning, 15th September, he would have opted to do it via Chumpon. Just a hunch on my part. It's all moot, because it's very doubtful either Bangkok Air or Nok Air is going to release any data which would anger a KT headman who is allegedly mafia-like.

<snip>

... and he would had even had some extra time if he had bought his ticket the day before.

I would not know where to find it, so only speculation but there was suggestion that he flew out of Surat on the first flight, flying under his fathers name.

After taking the "little duck" and having to ask directions from fishermen on the way to the mainland.

Yes these were some of the early stories, first few days. I wonder if that speedboat driver found hiding in a cave has ever had anything to do with Little Duck (name of boat, or a boat belonging to Little Duck Tours & Restaurant, Koh Samui, or both?).

If the flight aspect is true then I would have thought that under the circumstances he would not fly under his or his father's name if possible but who knows. How much id is required for an internal flight?

Those are just some of the things that farang investigators would have looked in to - if allowed to do any investigating. That's why the PM made it clear "British are welcome as observers-only" even tho the Thai PM had agreed to the UK PM's request, the day before - to allow British investigators. RTP echoers will tell you it's justified, because Thailand is a sovereign country, but the reality is; countries often cooperate on crime investigations.

As for DNA. RTP first claimed Nomsod's didn't match. They followed up with claiming the B2' DNA did match. Both results were announced quite quickly - particularly for a country which claimed, 2 weeks prior, they didn't have facilities for DNA typing. It all hinged on the DNA found in/on Hannah. Only RTP top brass could claim what that crucial DNA was, so everyone else had to take their word for it. ha ha, big mistake.

Now we find there's no way RTP can produce that crucial DNA or the samples to get re-tested. If there was any doubt in anyone's mind the RTP were lying (about the DNA found in Hannah) .....the RTP's own screw-ups should make it all crystal clear. The only samples of DNA which may be reliable, are in British custody. Will they release the samples or the typing? I suspect they have released the typing - to both the prosecution and defense. That's why the prosecution is stumbling over itself and why the defense mentions they've got a favorable surprise coming re; the DNA.

[BritTim]

If the final word by the prosecution on the DNA evidence is that the samples are gone, and all that is left is the paper trail, I think a guilty verdict is going to be highly embarrassing for Thailand. Speaking personally, it would confirm my strong feeling that the Burmese kids are innocent. Incompetent though the RTP may be, it beggars belief that they would not ensure that their key evidence could stand up to, at least, cursory examination. The only reasonable explanation would be that the prosecution cannot afford reexamination of the DNA evidence/

[boomerangutang]

It's all very good debating about what might of happened but I have yet to hear what is actually really going on in the courtroom. I realize that observevers are limited in the fact that they are barred from taking notes but surely there must be a source that is out there that can give us a blow by blow account of what is going on. From all the the information of the testimonies it must account for about half an hour of the trial. How much discussion has been had on the DNA here in comparison to how much real time it took to discuss in court. I have been in grossed by this , it's sickening.

Welcome Thesticle. If you read through the many opinions posted in this thread (you can pass them up, if you choose), you can find news-type articles describing some of what happened Wed. thru Fri., the 1st 3 days of the prosecution presenting its case.

I agree, not much actually happened thus far, but the biggest news is the prosecution/RTP have flubbed up big time re; the DNA. As you should know, DNA is crucial if there is to be a conviction. The judges may simply take the word of the prosecution (that the defendents' DNA match) without re-examinations, but they'll be going out on a thin limb if they do that - and the trial will lose any semblence of justice.

[thailandchilli]

thailandchilli

What was it you said in an earlier post "I'm just one who is prepared to wait and continue reading the many satirical posts dreamt up by the experts."

Sounds like you've now joined in the many satirical posts you apparently identified.

My little jibe was just a reflection on what he wrote, nothing more, nothing less, so yes a little satire. Being select in what you want to have a dig about? Take the whole post in context and you well know that I was referring to some of the ridiculous theories and scenarios being put forward as objective views and conclusions to this incident.

Yep your little jibe that I was selectively highlighting, nothing more, nothing less.

Which particular ridiculous theories are you referring to?

I'll start with the first example:

Many months ago I saw on CSILA a post stating that Hannah may have been shot. I read and found it way out there, no possibility for this. But then an expert from Belgium did some scientific studies on it. It got me thinking but after a few days I again dismissed it as ridiculous.

Fast forward to a few days ago when this came up again, this time from a credible newspaper The Times who said they had seen photos which they said showed possible shrapnel wounds on Hannah. Then we get reports that the defense is going to be saying that this is what happened and that they also have new "very significant evidence" from the UK autopsy reports and other sources.

So maybe this is not such a ridiculous theory after all. Not saying that its true but apparently if the reports are true then its a strong possibility.

I have other examples of what you call ridiculous theories or what a handful of other posters called conspiracy theories that are now being proved to be correct but I'll let you respond to this first.

I think the differences in our opinions from what I make out from your original post on here is that you are prepared to wait to see the results of the trial and apparently be happy that justice will be done based on those results?

I'm a million miles from there, the trial process and the evidence presented so far or lack of, is a major concern, how can a fair conviction be made when no origianl DNA samples from Hannah existto recheck. The samples were collected by the RTP, analysed and tested by the RTP and reports delivered by the RTP. Can you trust that? Sorry I cant.

Come on you're not that dumb, you know as well as I do what I am referring to because you have been following the case just as much as most on here. You have given a prime example, fine, but to think the Times is credible, please. Anyone can print anything, just does not mean it's true because its in print. If you want to see some ridiculous examples, do what I did, read the sixty odd pages, you will find many.

Yes, I am prepared to wait until the conclusion of the trail, it can go either way, we do not know but because one wants to wait, is that a problem. Or do I have to convict them or pronounce their innocence now just to keep everyone happy. There has been an overwhelming support for the two, and there are many who have made inane comments in respect to their guilt, so I am not one sided when criticising.

What evidence has been presented or the lack of it. I don't know, do you, or are you relying on the good old media again or what some are spouting on here? As far as the DNA is concerned, all you can theorise about is what has been reported. It might be factual, it might not but if all we have to rely on is what is reported, then one would have to be cautious in their summation because you just don't know.

I have said many times that the police, from the time they commenced their investigation, left a lot to be desired, so I will go one step further, given what has been reported and suggest that they were inept and may have acted criminally in the way they allowed the crime scene to be contaminated, failed to use proper procedures when collecting evidence and made spurious allegations as to who was and wasn't involved. There was absolutely no need for a running commentary from them and yes, it did them more harm than good and made them look worse than the keystone cops. But that doesn't all evidence captured has been tainted or that the Prosecution is in cahoots with others to convict the defendants because they must.

In so far as the trail, has any poster on TV attend the trail, is sufficiently fluent in Thai to understand the process and then reported back their findings so those with infinite wisdom can reach a conclusion, thus pronouncing their guilt or innocence? I thought this was the role of the judge. But then we have those on here who are also critical of him. If they are found guilty and, as many will say, justice has not been served, then what am I able to do, rectify it, or join the bandwagon and criticise all and sundry for, as many allege, tampering with or contaminating the evidence. setting up innocents or just having a show trail, where the decision, of the guilt or innocence, has been predetermined? That is not for me to decide but yes, like you, I can have an opinion be it right or wrong.

They have a defence team, including the criminal advocate, Andy Hall, plus the media, the latter who are cajoling everyone and it is up to them to provide a defence that can destroy the credibility of the police, witnesses, etc., thus showing that the prosecution has failed to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. If everything is as claimed, that the evidence has been lost, that they are scapegoats, that there is a conspiracy between police and the headman and his family, it goes on and on, then it is up to the defence to highlight these failures and criminal activities through cross examination, if they know how, thus convincing the judge of the defendants' innocence. If all are corrupt, as many are alleging and then multitude of sins allegedly committed by the investigating police and their alleged conspirators, then it should be an easy enough task, don't you think?.

No I'm not dumb and yes the Times is a credible media outlet, but read my post again I did not say the report was true. We can all see that the lack of original DNA samples in the evidence provided. Surely you noticed that, its been in the media, its been reported by the RTP, by people who were at the trial that can speak Thai and English fluently, the judge also stated it was not possible to retest the DNA from Hannah, only the hoe, bag and one flip flop. So its not my theory on this as you state. It does not take anyone from here to be at the trial to get that information. Unless you call reading quotes by the judge theory or quotes by Andy Hall theory.

There is no DNA left, do you understand what that means, no DNA = no evidence aside from reports created by the RTP forensics. That in itself is enough to stop the trial now, but this is Thailand I know. No original DNA samples is impossible in my view. So I can only assume this is because they are lying, if they are lying then that means a coverup and so to the speculation and theories.

No problem at all for you to want to wait for the trial to finish. However for me when I see what I think is injustice going on then I don't roll over, go to sleep and wait for the outcome. Thankfully free speech allows us to express our opinion and sometimes mass opinion can affect change.

As I said, we are a million miles away in view so I'll leave it there for you as I have no wish to carry on with long posts like this when it gets nowhere, unless you actually reply to my questions before adding more for me to answer, now take a look at my post to you to see what I asked and lets see some examples of what you say are ridiculous theories and how you know they are ridiculous?

[ResandePohm]

In any decent country a mistrial would have been declared already and the police responsible for this farce would have been sacked. Start all over again and if tampered evidence is found then arrest the police responsible, this wont happen of course but it would be a face saver for the judiciary but not for the police or the great general so what will happen, i'm betting on a guilty verdict and to mollify the international press a life sentence instead of the death penalty due to ''humanitarian grounds'' ha ha.

I would put my money on a mistrial. I do not believe the Defence will be permitted to produce their witness from UK who will contradict the police evidence. If they did this would be a great loss of face for the police. The RTP would rather see the trial end and the B2 set free before that can happen and so they will work towards a mistrial by saying evidence lost or not available.

[Thesticle]

im an old hand here I know the Wild West of the islands. The patronage and deferring to people of power in the islands is akin to med evil Europe. It's important that people know exactly what's going on in the courtroom if not verbatim at least a gist. So far all I see is the same conjecture that I saw when this whole debacle started. I have a fairly good idea of what happened and I'd like to see it confirmed.