Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[KuhnPaen]

Ten years ago I asked my then Thai gf if she wanted to go to Koh Tao. She had been a dive instructor there and lived on the island for several years before returning yo bkk. She told me no, she didn't want to go, and that the entire island was mafia-run. "If they don't like you they feed you to sharks", she said.

Maybe she knew I wasn't very likable, or my penchant for standing up for myself in confrontations would lead to my untimely demise. Either way, I was pretty floored when I first heard of this case. As if all of her warnings had come true.

So, if this is indeed the mafia-run island nicknamed "ka Yai island" instead of koh Tao, the public should be made aware of the world that lurks beneath the travel brochures.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Some argument over how long it takes to do a professional thorough DNA test. This explanation is from lab in USA. " With lives and liberty at stake, the forensic DNA analyst has an obligation to produce the highest quality of work and with this commitment comes the cost of time." Time presented here with all the correct steps is 54 hours and 15 minutes. http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/dna-timeline.shtml

In a rape case like this with two suspects even longer i guess. I also doubt the credibility of DNA tests are made in Thailand. My understanding was that they were going to send samples of the semen to Singapore to do the racial profiling which presumably they are unable to do. The 2 boys' DNA samples did not match at first and were released. 300 people on the island were probably tested for nothing.

While perfectly valid for you to not have faith in Thai procedures or testing... Prior to identifying the two in custody an official said they were going to send DNA out of the country to determine race to help them narrow the suspect list. None of us know if that was done or not but "if" I recall correctly it was around this time they started saying the person was of asian decent. Also, while the two defendants may have had samples taken earlier, police have been clear that they took hundreds of samples from islanders, much was never tested because of the backlog at the labs. What they would do when they had what they thought was a compelling suspect was to have a one off test expedited which cleared a number of suspects early on.

Edit: As a side note, I find it very implausible that Thailand doesn't have the ability to test for racial background. These tests are widely used and cheaply available commercially. Sounds like another example of an official making statements in the case without having all the facts.

Edited July 17, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[richard peters]

A lot of big money behind the scenes, influenced the outcome! "Where there is smoke, There is fire!"

[JohnThailandJohn]

Ten years ago I asked my then Thai gf if she wanted to go to Koh Tao. She had been a dive instructor there and lived on the island for several years before returning yo bkk. She told me no, she didn't want to go, and that the entire island was mafia-run. "If they don't like you they feed you to sharks", she said.

Maybe she knew I wasn't very likable, or my penchant for standing up for myself in confrontations would lead to my untimely demise. Either way, I was pretty floored when I first heard of this case. As if all of her warnings had come true.

So, if this is indeed the mafia-run island nicknamed "ka Yai island" instead of koh Tao, the public should be made aware of the world that lurks beneath the travel brochures.

So you suspect, ten years after the comment, that these two were killed by the mafia on the island because they were not liked vs. maybe your Thai GF maybe hiding something from you as the reason not to visit where she chose to live for several years?

How many other tourists were murdered on this island during that 10 year span vs. number of girlfriends who lie and/or hide their past from their boyfriends?

[fayou]

Some argument over how long it takes to do a professional thorough DNA test. This explanation is from lab in USA. " With lives and liberty at stake, the forensic DNA analyst has an obligation to produce the highest quality of work and with this commitment comes the cost of time." Time presented here with all the correct steps is 54 hours and 15 minutes. http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/dna-timeline.shtml

In a rape case like this with two suspects even longer i guess. I also doubt the credibility of DNA tests are made in Thailand. My understanding was that they were going to send samples of the semen to Singapore to do the racial profiling which presumably they are unable to do. The 2 boys' DNA samples did not match at first and were released. 300 people on the island were probably tested for nothing.

While perfectly valid for you to not have faith in Thai procedures or testing... Prior to identifying the two in custody an official said they were going to send DNA out of the country to determine race to help them narrow the suspect list. None of us know if that was done or not but "if" I recall correctly it was around this time they started saying the person was of asian decent. Also, while the two defendants may have had samples taken earlier, police have been clear that they took hundreds of samples from islanders, much was never tested because of the backlog at the labs. What they would do when they had what they thought was a compelling suspect was to have a one off test expedited which cleared a number of suspects early on.

Edit: As a side note, I find it very implausible that Thailand doesn't have the ability to test for racial background. These tests are widely used and cheaply available commercially. Sounds like another example of an official making statements in the case without having all the facts.

what facts ?

“Currently, neither of the 6 forensic DNA laboratories in Bangkok is accredited for forensic DNA analysis by international accreditation bodies nor ISO17025:2005. However, out of the 6 DNA laboratories, one laboratory is ISO 15189:2003 accredited and one is ISO 9001:2000 accredited for the management system. All of the 6 laboratories are equipped with essential instruments sufficient for carrying out forensic DNA analysis, though a need to balance the capacity of major instruments to reach it’s full capacity. To strengthen the competency of staffs, specialtraining regarding forensic issues must be provided. All 6 laboratories have positive attitude towards standards and accreditation as prerequisite to carry out forensic case work. Over 66.67% of the DNA laboratories aim for being ISO17025:2005 accredited within 3 years. However, in order to process for the accreditation, the main organizationmust have a clear supporting policy. An external auditor may be appointed as a part of the auditing team to provide a broader view to the laboratory, as well as demonstrating clarity of the quality assurance process. In the beginning of this year, 2007, the Bureau of Laboratory Quality Standards, Ministry of Public Health, Thailand has launched anaccreditation program based on ISO/IEC 17025:2005 for forensic science laboratories. This is would help support Thai forensic laboratories to meet the quality and international standards in the very near future.”

http://mikeestravels.com/2014/09/25/the-dark-side-of-thailands-island-paradise/

-DNA evidence plays an important role in forensic investigations. Accreditations and standards gained by laboratories assure the quality of forensic DNA examinations. In this study, the current situation of all six DNA laboratories carrying out forensic DNA analysis in Bangkok was evaluated by observation, interview, and a questionnaire based on the international standard guideline ISO/IEC 17025:2005 and DNA Advisory Board (DAB). The data was then analyzed in terms of manpower, instrumentation, workload, and laboratory management systems. In the year 2006, a total of 11,000 DNA samples from criminal and paternity cases were submitted to the 6 DNA laboratories. The number of samples being typed in each laboratory varied from 400 – 5,000 samples. A budget of approximately 136,500 baht per 100 reactions is needed to maintain the laboratory work. It was evidence that the maximum capacity of the laboratories had not yet been reached. Two major instruments are required in forensic DNA analysis. Some laboratories had bottlenecks because they did not have enough capacity in one of these instruments. Staff working in all forensic DNA laboratories hold the highest qualifications related to the subject area with work experience varying from a minimum of 6 months to 26 years. None of the 6 forensic DNA laboratories in Bangkok is accredited for forensic DNA analysis by international accreditation bodies or ISO17025:2005, but some of them are accredited with other ISO standards which are not relevant to forensic DNA laboratory work.

http://www.grad.mahidol.ac.th/grad/research/abstract_view.php?id=4936091〈=en&fac=21&prg=2125M&gp=1

-DNA in Thailand within 3 working days. DNA Testing Laboratory Co.,Ltd. established on 3rd June 2011.

Currently (2012 ?) in Thailand, only Government hospitals offer limited DNA testing services, which may not meet the desired needs of each individual customer.

http://www.dnathailand.com/en.html

-express testing option which allows you to have your results in just 2 working days. costs only THB12,600 + 7% VAT.

easy DNA Thailand. com -Customer Service Award, iso17025.

http://www.easydnathailand.com/

a side note

-The DNA tests of semen can take several days or several weeks before results are available, depending upon which techniques have been used by the lab (and which lab has done the DNA testing). DNA tests can show that the semen is not from the suspect. Or these tests can show that the DNA in the sperm is not detectably different from the suspect's. But DNA testing can never prove with complete certainty that the semen is from the suspect.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=23321

one more

Problem 7: Rape with Two Suspects

http://www.biology.arizona.edu/human_bio/problem_sets/dna_forensics_2/07q.html

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

I found a Bkk Post article which asserts that Panya, the initial head cop on the case, thought that Running Man videos showed Mon. How can a 45 yr old man look like a skinny kid? Maybe in Hollywood with special effects. A reasonable observer, when looking at the Runnng Man videos compared to other videos showing his body-type, his gait, his quirky mannerisms while he walks, will conclude it's Nomsod. Among other things, NS's odd way of swinging his arms and sheltering his left arm (he's allegedly left handed and David's wounds were mostly to the right side of his neck) ....give it away.

Maybe Panya didn't get everything wrong. On Sept. 24, 2014 he claimed "the (prime) suspect had left the island and went into hiding in the capital." (referring to Nomsod)

Another note, this one from Wikipedia: self-appointed PM Prayut appointed Police-General Somyot (declared assets: around Bt.350 million) head of the RTP following the coup of May 2014. Boomer's comment: it's surprising, a man can amass such a fortune on a policeman's salary of about Bt.12,000/month (starting salary used to be around Bt.9000 month). Prayut is the head policeman who assigned himself to take over the KT crime investigation, while concurrently assigning the prior head cop, Panya, to what was essentially an inactive post in Bkk.

To amass 350 million baht on a policeman's salary of 12,000/month, a person would have to work 2,500 years without spending anything, just saving.

So you see that getting your assets garnished for Excessive Wealth is for the PM's opposition and not his friends. Goes to show he will be staying awhile trying to root out corruption. Hard to root out yourself. Just like when I see my dog chase his own tail I laugh telling myself he is in for a real treat when he does finally bite his own tail. Has to be an eye opener, to say the least.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

I would like to suggest before anyone else goes on about the DNA samples they google "dna sample testing".

Some points:

Unless the samples are taken by experienced people samples can easily be contaminated.

Comparing sperm dna taken from inside the victim with saliva (e.g.) dna is more complicated than say saliva with saliva.

Samples with mixed sperm from 2 or more men taken from inside the victim are very difficult to confirm and are open to errors.

Conformation of the dna results should be confirmed by 2 independent (of each other) laboratories.

No wonder the defence wanted independent testing.

And just think if Saw and Win were being represented by a court appointed defense. They would be ashes to the sea by now. But international outcry for justice will be their salvation. The propaganda that the prosecution had a strong case has proven otherwise.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Some argument over how long it takes to do a professional thorough DNA test. This explanation is from lab in USA. " With lives and liberty at stake, the forensic DNA analyst has an obligation to produce the highest quality of work and with this commitment comes the cost of time." Time presented here with all the correct steps is 54 hours and 15 minutes. http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/dna-timeline.shtml

In a rape case like this with two suspects even longer i guess. I also doubt the credibility of DNA tests are made in Thailand. My understanding was that they were going to send samples of the semen to Singapore to do the racial profiling which presumably they are unable to do. The 2 boys' DNA samples did not match at first and were released. 300 people on the island were probably tested for nothing.

While perfectly valid for you to not have faith in Thai procedures or testing... Prior to identifying the two in custody an official said they were going to send DNA out of the country to determine race to help them narrow the suspect list. None of us know if that was done or not but "if" I recall correctly it was around this time they started saying the person was of asian decent. Also, while the two defendants may have had samples taken earlier, police have been clear that they took hundreds of samples from islanders, much was never tested because of the backlog at the labs. What they would do when they had what they thought was a compelling suspect was to have a one off test expedited which cleared a number of suspects early on.

Edit: As a side note, I find it very implausible that Thailand doesn't have the ability to test for racial background. These tests are widely used and cheaply available commercially. Sounds like another example of an official making statements in the case without having all the facts.

what facts ?

“Currently, neither of the 6 forensic DNA laboratories in Bangkok is accredited for forensic DNA analysis by international accreditation bodies nor ISO17025:2005. However, out of the 6 DNA laboratories, one laboratory is ISO 15189:2003 accredited and one is ISO 9001:2000 accredited for the management system. All of the 6 laboratories are equipped with essential instruments sufficient for carrying out forensic DNA analysis, though a need to balance the capacity of major instruments to reach it’s full capacity. To strengthen the competency of staffs, specialtraining regarding forensic issues must be provided. All 6 laboratories have positive attitude towards standards and accreditation as prerequisite to carry out forensic case work. Over 66.67% of the DNA laboratories aim for being ISO17025:2005 accredited within 3 years. However, in order to process for the accreditation, the main organizationmust have a clear supporting policy. An external auditor may be appointed as a part of the auditing team to provide a broader view to the laboratory, as well as demonstrating clarity of the quality assurance process. In the beginning of this year, 2007, the Bureau of Laboratory Quality Standards, Ministry of Public Health, Thailand has launched anaccreditation program based on ISO/IEC 17025:2005 for forensic science laboratories. This is would help support Thai forensic laboratories to meet the quality and international standards in the very near future.”

http://mikeestravels.com/2014/09/25/the-dark-side-of-thailands-island-paradise/

-DNA evidence plays an important role in forensic investigations. Accreditations and standards gained by laboratories assure the quality of forensic DNA examinations. In this study, the current situation of all six DNA laboratories carrying out forensic DNA analysis in Bangkok was evaluated by observation, interview, and a questionnaire based on the international standard guideline ISO/IEC 17025:2005 and DNA Advisory Board (DAB). The data was then analyzed in terms of manpower, instrumentation, workload, and laboratory management systems. In the year 2006, a total of 11,000 DNA samples from criminal and paternity cases were submitted to the 6 DNA laboratories. The number of samples being typed in each laboratory varied from 400 – 5,000 samples. A budget of approximately 136,500 baht per 100 reactions is needed to maintain the laboratory work. It was evidence that the maximum capacity of the laboratories had not yet been reached. Two major instruments are required in forensic DNA analysis. Some laboratories had bottlenecks because they did not have enough capacity in one of these instruments. Staff working in all forensic DNA laboratories hold the highest qualifications related to the subject area with work experience varying from a minimum of 6 months to 26 years. None of the 6 forensic DNA laboratories in Bangkok is accredited for forensic DNA analysis by international accreditation bodies or ISO17025:2005, but some of them are accredited with other ISO standards which are not relevant to forensic DNA laboratory work.

What facts? I only used the word facts once in my posts and it was clear what facts I was refering to as I stated ... Sounds like another example of an official making statements in the case without having all the facts.

As for the remainder of your post it has nothing do with what I posted but is information from 8 year old reports and the labs used in Thailand are accepted and accredited to have their results used in court. If there is questions about their ability to perform tests or that the may be so inept as to identify the defendants DNA in the victim, instead of the right person, then we can be sure the defense will bring this up.

As a side note, from an article published after your information above, regarding the richest and one of the most technologically advanced nations with 50 States ...

Although several states already require laboratories performing forensic examinations within their state become accredited, the majority do not require accreditation. http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2012/02/iso-iec-170252005-accreditation-digital-forensics-discipline

In other words not only is your reply not relevant to my post but also extremely misleading.

Edited July 17, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

[catsanddogs]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

You need to update yourself somewhat.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

If I lived outside of the bubble I'd be at the mercy of a known corrupt system as this family and many more have. If the evidence isn't there then they are believing for the sake of believing.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

If I lived outside of the bubble I'd be at the mercy of a known corrupt system as this family and many more have. If the evidence isn't there then they are believing for the sake of believing.

According the the families statement:

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us,"

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

No worries though as I thought you were showing genuine concern for the family but in your follow-up post it would seem to indicate that you believe they have their heads buried in the sand despite their being the only ones who have an unquestionable motivation to see true justice carried out and who are privy to more evidence and facts about the case than any of us.

[SiSePuede419]

Some argument over how long it takes to do a professional thorough DNA test. This explanation is from lab in USA. " With lives and liberty at stake, the forensic DNA analyst has an obligation to produce the highest quality of work and with this commitment comes the cost of time." Time presented here with all the correct steps is 54 hours and 15 minutes. http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/dna-timeline.shtml

Yeah, but that's the largest independent DNA testing facility in SoCal. I would guess using state-of-the-art sequencing equipment.

Can you imagine the tariff the Thai government imposed on such equipment to "protect" the Thai DNA sequencing machine industry?

As you can read in the links, the process involves a lot of attention to detail, every step of the way.

In the land of Mai pben rai?

555

[catsanddogs]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

If I lived outside of the bubble I'd be at the mercy of a known corrupt system as this family and many more have. If the evidence isn't there then they are believing for the sake of believing.

According the the families statement:

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us,"

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

No worries though as I thought you were showing genuine concern for the family but in your follow-up post it would seem to indicate that you believe they have their heads buried in the sand despite their being the only ones who have an unquestionable motivation to see true justice carried out and who are privy to more evidence and facts about the case than any of us.

You're a few months out of date with your quotes. Suggest you catch up.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

If I lived outside of the bubble I'd be at the mercy of a known corrupt system as this family and many more have. If the evidence isn't there then they are believing for the sake of believing.

Who can believe the prosecution who started this circus by announcing they have a strong case? Then when that strong case is challenged by requests to retest that the errogant sons of bitches, thinking their word would not be challenged, didn't insure that there would be amble DNA preserved just incase. We all here have had indications for these and those in a murder that has had its twist and turns a many. I believe evidence that's not manipulated or flawed no matter how bad I would want someone to pay for this crime. How many times have you read where the prosecution has coerced witnesses to say the defendant is guilty because the police feel they have the right person? Evidence is condemning. Feeling gets you that warm and fuzzy but no more closer to the truth.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

If I lived outside of the bubble I'd be at the mercy of a known corrupt system as this family and many more have. If the evidence isn't there then they are believing for the sake of believing.

Who can believe the prosecution who started this circus by announcing they have a strong case? Then when that strong case is challenged by requests to retest that the errogant sons of bitches, thinking their word would not be challenged, didn't insure that there would be amble DNA preserved just incase. We all here have had indications for these and those in a murder that has had its twist and turns a many. I believe evidence that's not manipulated or flawed no matter how bad I would want someone to pay for this crime. How many times have you read where the prosecution has coerced witnesses to say the defendant is guilty because the police feel they have the right person? Evidence is condemning. Feeling gets you that warm and fuzzy but no more closer to the truth.

And yes my sympathy and concern if for the family. No matter what has been shared if it doesn't get a conviction...

[JohnThailandJohn]

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

If I lived outside of the bubble I'd be at the mercy of a known corrupt system as this family and many more have. If the evidence isn't there then they are believing for the sake of believing.

According the the families statement:

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us," [/size]

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."[/size]

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."[/size]

No worries though as I thought you were showing genuine concern for the family but in your follow-up post it would seem to indicate that you believe they have their heads buried in the sand despite their being the only ones who have an unquestionable motivation to see true justice carried out and who are privy to more evidence and facts about the case than any of us.

You're a few months out of date with your quotes. Suggest you catch up.

Actually family has not said anything to contradict themselves or indicate they have changed their minds. So this is the most up to date statements from them when it comes to their view of the evidence. Unless you have something to indicate differently, why make such a misleading statement?

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Unless I have missed something... The police bring the charges and evidence to the prosecution and it his his job to present this evidence to the court. The problem began in the first step. The only way these boys don't go free is that the court believes the unbelievable. And if that's the case let's accuse anyone of any criminal act and fill the prisons with more innocent people.

[007cableguy]

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

If I lived outside of the bubble I'd be at the mercy of a known corrupt system as this family and many more have. If the evidence isn't there then they are believing for the sake of believing.

According the the families statement:

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us," [/size]

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."[/size]

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."[/size]

No worries though as I thought you were showing genuine concern for the family but in your follow-up post it would seem to indicate that you believe they have their heads buried in the sand despite their being the only ones who have an unquestionable motivation to see true justice carried out and who are privy to more evidence and facts about the case than any of us.

You're a few months out of date with your quotes. Suggest you catch up.

Actually family has not said anything to contradict themselves or indicate they have changed their minds. So this is the most up to date statements from them when it comes to their view of the evidence. Unless you have something to indicate differently, why make such a misleading statement?

The statement you are referring to is from the parents after they were told by the RTP via the Met police !, I believe their view has changed ,If you take off your blinkers you would by now have realised that RTP story holes in it then a Swiss cheese!.

Edited July 17, 2015 by 007cableguy

[Colabamumbai]

I say it is time to set the boys free Thailand, do you need more international embarrassment?

[GOLDBUGGY]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

You need to update yourself somewhat.

You need to stop jumping in on a subject that you obviously know absolutely nothing about catsanddogs.

[rockingrobin]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

You need to update yourself somewhat.

You need to stop jumping in on a subject that you obviously know absolutely nothing about catsanddogs.

GB I normally ignore your posts, however I am somewhat flabbergasted that you came out with such a statement considering your track record

In all fairness catsanddogs is more than up to speed on the subject , and I would suggest that you should practice what you preach

[GOLDBUGGY]

I would like to suggest before anyone else goes on about the DNA samples they google "dna sample testing".

Some points:

Unless the samples are taken by experienced people samples can easily be contaminated.

Comparing sperm dna taken from inside the victim with saliva (e.g.) dna is more complicated than say saliva with saliva.

Samples with mixed sperm from 2 or more men taken from inside the victim are very difficult to confirm and are open to errors.

Conformation of the dna results should be confirmed by 2 independent (of each other) laboratories.

No wonder the defence wanted independent testing.

DNA

"In DNA forensics the crime lab is constrained by whatever samples happen to be found at the scene of a crime. Samples may have been degraded and may be mixtures of samples from different individuals, as happens in a multiple murder. Also, the forensic scientist often has only a small amount of DNA, only enough to do one test, and as a result the test cannot be repeated because the sample will have been used up."

"Although DNA evidence in most courts is generally admissible in principle, the analysis of the evidence presented by forensics labs is the area that is brought under careful inspection. In many cases, judges have ruled that DNA evidence was not admissible because the analysis did not follow generally accepted principles of forensic analysis. Also, in dozens of cases prosecutors have chosen to withdraw DNA evidence when defense attorneys have hired their own forensic experts who raised questions about the validity of the evidence."

https://education.llnl.gov/bep/socsci/11/tEvi.html

[GOLDBUGGY]

Rockenrobin

Yes. Please do remain flabbergasted! I don't know you any other way. You also don't have to tell me you ignore my posts. I already know you stick your head in the sand when anyone even suggested different than you.

If a person says his opinion is this or that, than fine.Even if it is way off the wall, like many are here. But when someone states, like catsanddogs did, he knows something new about the families that the rest of us don't know, then doesn't prove it, this is not an opinion. It is just misleading and a down right bare assed faced lie.

The most updated news from the families is what JTJ stated, and also myself now! If you have different information, then prove it and share it with the rest of us. If you do not, then stopping jumping in with false misleading statements. There is enough around without your help. People are getting sick having to listen to every post defended and attacked by the Lynch Mob.

If you do not agree then fine. I don't agree with a lot of crap here either. But I don't jump on everyone just because their opinion is different than mine.

[thailandchilli]

I would like to suggest before anyone else goes on about the DNA samples they google "dna sample testing".

Some points:

Unless the samples are taken by experienced people samples can easily be contaminated.

Comparing sperm dna taken from inside the victim with saliva (e.g.) dna is more complicated than say saliva with saliva.

Samples with mixed sperm from 2 or more men taken from inside the victim are very difficult to confirm and are open to errors.

Conformation of the dna results should be confirmed by 2 independent (of each other) laboratories.

No wonder the defence wanted independent testing.

DNA

"In DNA forensics the crime lab is constrained by whatever samples happen to be found at the scene of a crime. Samples may have been degraded and may be mixtures of samples from different individuals, as happens in a multiple murder. Also, the forensic scientist often has only a small amount of DNA, only enough to do one test, and as a result the test cannot be repeated because the sample will have been used up."

"Although DNA evidence in most courts is generally admissible in principle, the analysis of the evidence presented by forensics labs is the area that is brought under careful inspection. In many cases, judges have ruled that DNA evidence was not admissible because the analysis did not follow generally accepted principles of forensic analysis. Also, in dozens of cases prosecutors have chosen to withdraw DNA evidence when defense attorneys have hired their own forensic experts who raised questions about the validity of the evidence."

https://education.llnl.gov/bep/socsci/11/tEvi.html

Interesting link, but DNA Forensics have moved on since then. This is over 15 years old.

Edited July 18, 2015 by thailandchilli

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Stay tune boys and girls for the big finale... Not guilty by inconclusive evidence. These are the scapegoats that escaped justifiably from the Pm's sacrificial alter. Can't fire your buddies for trying. Two birds in the bush were all they had.

[IslandLover]

This whole subject makes me so angry and sad. I put myself in the place of Hannah being my daughter and how would I feel. Of David been a brother who I had grown up with looked up too...and seeing them go like they did in the most horrific crime imaginable. And the parents having to go through the court case and see the pictures of there loved ones. So so sad. I can't imagine how the family must feel and that's why I get involved on here even though I know I shouldn't. Justice needs to be done and seen to be done. I hope and pray it will be I really do. Do I think it will. Well if the good people,on here have anything to do with it along with so many others it will be but I sometimes don't hold out much hope.I love Thailand but can't love the system and the people benefitting from it. I'm out of here till 22 nd. Good luck to all you good people trying to fight for justice.Respect.

If you really care about the victim's family and don't know how they feel then I suggest you examine their own words and consider too what they say about those coming up with speculative BS to defend the two on trial for murdering their kids.

The victims' families said they had seen strong evidence against the suspects and expressed confidence in the case.

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us," Witheridge's family said in a statement.

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

On Friday the family of Miller criticised "increasing sensationalism of this story" and said that "speculation" should be suspended until all evidence is made public.

"The support for the Myanmar suspects has been strong and vocal, but please do not jump to conclusions until you have considered the evidence from both sides in full," Miller’s family said.

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

"We would like to thank the officers who travelled to Thailand to review the case and the Royal Thai Police for facilitating their visit," Witheridge's family said.

I wonder if the families still feel the same after having to endure the first 3 days of the trial? A reality check, I would surmise. I'm positive that had the B2 been guilty, as intimated, all the relevant DNA samples would have been provided for retesting. The fact that they aren't, as confirmed by the defence two days after the police spokesman said they were available, speaks volumes about deflective misdirection.

IMO, they are available except that there's no way they're going to be released to the defence. Let's see what happens on the 22nd.

I wonder if the families still feel the same after having to endure the first 3 days of the trial?

The Miller family don't appear to, judging by the statement they gave to the press at the end of those three days.

“We’ll go with the flow as much as we can. We won’t comment on the trial process. We’ll be dignified for David,” Mr Miller said when asked about the hearing.

“We came out with an open mind. We are specifically keeping an open mind. There has been lots of chit-chat on the Internet. We are here for David because of his tragic death.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/10/family-of-briton-murdered-in-thailand-its-been-hard-very-hard

[Linky]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

If I lived outside of the bubble I'd be at the mercy of a known corrupt system as this family and many more have. If the evidence isn't there then they are believing for the sake of believing.

According the the families statement:

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us,"

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

No worries though as I thought you were showing genuine concern for the family but in your follow-up post it would seem to indicate that you believe they have their heads buried in the sand despite their being the only ones who have an unquestionable motivation to see true justice carried out and who are privy to more evidence and facts about the case than any of us.

They have not been privy to anything but hearsay. Not facts.

Please tell us the evidence they received?

[IslandLover]

If you really care about the victim's family and don't know how they feel then I suggest you examine their own words and consider too what they say about those coming up with speculative BS to defend the two on trial for murdering their kids.

The victims' families said they had seen strong evidence against the suspects and expressed confidence in the case.

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us," Witheridge's family said in a statement.

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

On Friday the family of Miller criticised "increasing sensationalism of this story" and said that "speculation" should be suspended until all evidence is made public.

"The support for the Myanmar suspects has been strong and vocal, but please do not jump to conclusions until you have considered the evidence from both sides in full," Miller’s family said.

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

"We would like to thank the officers who travelled to Thailand to review the case and the Royal Thai Police for facilitating their visit," Witheridge's family said.

I wonder if the families still feel the same after having to endure the first 3 days of the trial? A reality check, I would surmise. I'm positive that had the B2 been guilty, as intimated, all the relevant DNA samples would have been provided for retesting. The fact that they aren't, as confirmed by the defence two days after the police spokesman said they were available, speaks volumes about deflective misdirection.

IMO, they are available except that there's no way they're going to be released to the defence. Let's see what happens on the 22nd.

I wonder if the families still feel the same after having to endure the first 3 days of the trial?

The Miller family don't appear to, judging by the statement they gave to the press at the end of the first 3 days:

“We’ll go with the flow as much as we can. We won’t comment on the trial process. We’ll be dignified for David,” Mr Miller said when asked about the hearing.

“We came out with an open mind. We are specifically keeping an open mind. There has been lots of chit-chat on the Internet. We are here for David because of his tragic death.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/10/family-of-briton-murdered-in-thailand-its-been-hard-very-hard

Edited July 18, 2015 by IslandLover