A Clearer Explanation Of New Visa Regulations

[cclub75]

I, as an affected person have been following these 1 zillion posts for a week or more.

Oh, my Buddha.

is there any other country in the world who could <deleted> up as badly as this?

The truth is , they really are very unintelligent......

anyhow the farangs will force them to think about it and make it comprehensible after some time.

one does get sick of the TIT excuse for stupidity.

I have to say that is somewhat unfair. The thinking behind the action is logical, get as many people here in the Kingdom registered and onto a suitable checkable visa foundation.

Non. We understand the "spirit" of the new rules. And many agree that's a good thing.

Mark is right : since one week is total CHAOS. It's a shame that they weren't able to clearly announce the rules and their application, and their implications.

Instead of making press conferences and "semi official meeting" and other "secret party" with Interpol guy (a famous post a few days ago), it would have been easier for everybody to make an official statement.

[Thaiquila]

Am I the only one that is feeling that Thai visa policies are starting to feel "Kafkaesque"? At the very least, rather schizoid, passive aggressive, and rather crazy making.

As Gertrude Stein once said, maybe it can be applied to Thai immigration policies: "Is there a there there?"

[A_Traveller]

What does strike me, despite having my quote truncated above, is that I was told that the publication of the original interview in the Bangkok Post was an error in terms of timing. It wasn't explained to me by whom. However, I'm inclined to agree that with that article the chaos started.

Expecting a department to reply to internet chatter, and a few odd, very odd, letters in the Post was foolish. Much of the so called news last week was either leaks, or off the record briefings. The end result for everyone was trying to make sense of things whilst being told that there was to be a meeting on Friday and a press conference thereafter.

That did happen, but the conference was not carried in any depth by any of the stations here, and the reports provided by the Post and The Nation where, in my view, very poorly written and lacking in clarity, given their target audience.

Further talking to individuals on Monday it was clear to me that despite what was being said the detail was not in place nor ready for release. One does have to remember though, that in principal departments keep information to themselves, and release as little as possible. There are few exceptions to this. After all who typing here can remember the effort required to get the details about the then new Asian rules? It took weeks to obtain a brief on those.

It is to be hoped that, if we set the clock to zero, to borrow a phrase, as of Friday that detail will be forthcoming more quickly this time.

Regards

[cclub75]

Expecting a department to reply to internet chatter, and a few odd, very odd, letters in the Post was foolish. Much of the so called news last week was either leaks, or off the record briefings.

Well, put it in perspective : Immigration regulations are designed for... foreigners.

Therefore, it make sense to be sure that the proper message get through the proper medium.

1 october is in less than 2 weeks...

They did it. On the official website of the Department :

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/2notice/newpro.html

But... in a very poor way. It's like a photocopy of a leaflet.

Immigration regulations are the perfect field for FAQs.

They could have written the main questions that everybody was asking like maniacs on ya ba since one week on this very forum (and probably everywhere else...) :

-90 days is total duration or number of stamps of 30 days ? etc.

-I live in Singapore, can I still come to Bangkok to play golf every week end ? etc.

The result is : now everyone is suspicious. We are defiant. Because many question remains unanswered.

1-what about the "official" target to "fight the foreigners who are working illegaly without work permit" ?

Was it a dream ? A collective hallucination ?

With the beautifull system presented by the Major in his interview on Kaosanroad.com, where is the fight ? You do 3x30 + visa + extension, and then do it again ! Brilliant.

2-There is a rather scary sentence, in the Major's interview :

"There has been no official orders to tighten controls on issuing visas abroad. It is at the discretion of the issuing officer. It is business as usual. There is and never was a guarantee that you would be issued a single, double, etc visa."

It's a monument of weird logic and left-side right-side dancing !

-no order to tighten controls on issuing visa

-but it's at the discretion of the local officer

-but it's business as usual

-but there is no guarantee

I give up !

[Thaiquila]

We want you. But we don't want you.

Sort of. Kind of. Figure it out. Up 2 Us.

[SabahCafeandCinima]

To get this straight

2-There is a rather scary sentence, in the Major's interview :

"There has been no official orders to tighten controls on issuing visas abroad. It is at the discretion of the issuing officer. It is business as usual. There is and never was a guarantee that you would be issued a single, double, etc visa."

This is not a quote from the maj as in one sentence or several in a row as above

Its a summary and the article says it a summary of other points discussed including the questions and answers.

[rogerthecabinboy]

Forgive me for being dense here, I'm more than a tad confused by what I've been reading.

Am I right in understanding from the 2nd in command, that you can do 3 back to back visas at the border, and then as an example you could fly to Singapore, apply for a tourist visa and then re-enter?

This seems to be very different to the statement.

And tourists who stay for 90 days must leave the Kingdom for at least 90 days before being permitted to re-enter Thailand.

As I say apologies for any stupidity on my part.

Roger.

[sriracha john]

And yeah like maybe next year we will have some way that all airlines in the world can in real time check this out at check in.. Over some kind of electronic thing..

... thanks for that , LivinLOS...

I believe this is the electronic gizmo that every airline counter and travel agent will soon have:

Edited September 18, 2006 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

I really want to see these new "electronic" systems in action nationwide.

see above, teach. They are being constructed by the hundreds in Burundi as we speak...

[johnh101]

it might prove harder to board the aircraft than pass through immigration.

As the Thai authoritioes will probably put the onus on the airlines to ensure compliance with these new rules I am also sure that they will give the airlines the responsibility for repatriation of anyone who 'slips' through.

[tropo]

To get this straight

2-There is a rather scary sentence, in the Major's interview :

"There has been no official orders to tighten controls on issuing visas abroad. It is at the discretion of the issuing officer. It is business as usual. There is and never was a guarantee that you would be issued a single, double, etc visa."

This is not a quote from the maj as in one sentence or several in a row as above

Its a summary and the article says it a summary of other points discussed including the questions and answers.

Yes, this was not a quote, however the information in this summary is inaccurate.

The Consulate in Penang (and KL too I believe) on September 11 were given direct instructions to cease issuing 2 and 3-entry tourist visas. I obtained a 3-entry (Australia) and my girlfriend (Philippines) a 2-entry tourist visa just late last month in Penang, however they will now issue single entry tourist visas only.

This is a major tightening up of policy.

I was told (by a busy visa run company) on Saturday that the consulate in Phnom Penh is still issuing 2-entry tourist visas. If they are, I don't think it will last long.

Edited September 19, 2006 by tropo

[IMA_FARANG]

Oh, the airlines are gonna love this! How are airlines supposed to know whether to board or not?

Pardon me for being dense, but I don't see what the airlines have to do with it. They have never had a policy of stopping anyone from coming to Thailand because they thought that person either could or couldn't get a Visa on Arrival (or passport stamp to be more accurate). That part never mattered to the airlines involved, it is strictly a Thai immigration matter.

The only policy I know of as far as the airlines were concerned was the Thai immigration requirement that a traveller had to have a vilid exit ticket before they allowed them to travel to Thailand. I have once actually been questioned for that very reason when checking in at Copenhagen airport. the person who checked me in very correctly told me I would not be allowed to travel to Thailand without an outbound ticket. I happened to be going to BKK on one airline, and leaving about 2 weeks later on another airline. I showed her my outbound ticket, and there was no problem.

The way I understand it, an airline is required to meet the legal government requirements regarding passengers coming into a country. The only Thai government requirement( currently) on the part of the airline is to make sure that the arriving passenger has an valid onward ticket as required by Thai immigration law.

The visa issue, if you can qualify for a visa or not, is not a requirement that Thai immigration places on the airlines. That is up to the individual traveller.

Maybe I'm wrong, but under the current law, I think all that is required of the airlines is to verify an onward ticket.

In my case, it shouldn't matter anyway. I have a total of less thatn 90 days resident in Thailand in the last year.

[Thaiquila]

In the US under the current system if you show up at an airport with either a 1 way ticket or return ticket which returns OVER 30 days, WITHOUT A VISA, you most definitely WILL NOT BE ALLOWED ON THE AIRLINE. I think the same from UK as well? So IT IS THE AIRLINES BUSINESS, OK?????

The ticket agents have information for each target country, and in the US anway, they ENFORCE the rules. That is because if they board you and you don't get in, they will be liable for all of the expenses to get you home. Understand now?

Those rules are super simple. The new rules are super complex. The airlines will not be bothered with studying every stamp in your passport.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Thaiquila

[dekka007]

Does it now mean that I can go to immigration office with my NON O visa issued from the UK and then get them to extend it by 1 year without returning to the UK to get a new one? aslong as I currently have more than 21 days left?

Edited September 19, 2006 by dekka007

[taxexile]

when arriving at don meuang your passport is put through an electronic reader , i read that all entry and exit points in thailand now have those readers.

it should be an easy matter for the computers to be programmed to show, once your details have come up on the screen , the number of days in the country over the past 12 months .

all the delays and page turning and manual counting of days just wont happen.

[Thaiquila]

when arriving at don meuang your passport is put through an electronic reader , i read that all entry and exit points in thailand now have those readers.

it should be an easy matter for the computers to be programmed to show, once your details have come up on the screen , the number of days in the country over the past 12 months .

all the delays and page turning and manual counting of days just wont happen.

Oh yeah???

It is quite clear that system isn't implemented yet.

And what about at the BOARDING time abroad?

How are the airlines supposed to know whether to board or not to board?

Some vague electronic advancement in future?

Great. Maybe better to have that system in place BEFORE announcing the rule change.

[thaihome]

At Fridays press conference at the Imperial Queens Park Hotel Suk soi22, the Commissioner of Thai Immigration Pol. LT Gen Suwat Tumrongsiskul said in front of dozens of press (including cameras from ITV and channel11) that

Days wil be counted, NOT stamps. It was repeated twice

The whole story is another extreme shame for the thai authorities : just put on a government official website the proper documentation explaining the RULES, for christ sake !

Actually I think the shame belongs to extreme overreaction by western farang community. This policy was actually primarily aimed at Chinese and Indians (who actually get VOA's) that were abusing the 15 day entry stamps they get. Despite your paranoia, Thai Immigration was not after you.

If you read some of the post in various threads, it gets really ridiculous, ranging from the collapse of the housing market, collapse of the auto manufacturing business, the tourist business, the rental market, NEP and Cowboy going under, people on non-threatened retirement visas leaving for Malaysia or going back to their home countries, people recommending to their families and friends not to come to Thailand, etc, etc, etc.

Probably the biggest bunch of Chicken Little’s I have ever seen in over 5 years of Thailand Internet forums.

Oh, and as far as enforcement, all they have to do is keep a running count of previous days on each entry stamp. When you reach 90 within less then 180 days, they mark "Not permitted to enter again without visa untill XXXX", easy for Airlines agents to see.

TH

Edited September 19, 2006 by thaihome

[Thaiquila]

What EVIDENCE do you have that this change was not targetted at FARANGS as well as non-farang non-Thais?

I don't see that at all, especially in the wake of the Karr fiasco major league loss of Thai face. Hard to get more farang than Karr.

And how many BURMESE do you think went for the 3 million baht investment visa, JUST CANCELLED!

Edited September 19, 2006 by Thaiquila

[PREM-R]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere on TV but I have been trawling through various threads related to the new immigration rules and I still cannot find out if all stamps issued prior to 1st October are to be counted as part of the 90 days or if as of 1st October you start with a clean sheet and are allowed 90 days of stamps before you have to leave Thailand for 90 days (or get a 'proper' visa). Can someone clarify this for me please?

[vinny]

At borders the 90 day max of 'waivers of a visa' will be enforced once your 90 days FROM 1st October have been utilized within the period of 180 days.

[lukamar]

It won't be hard for immigration or the airlines to figure out the days. The average tourist to Thailand spends 8.1 days on average in the country. Which means the average tourist has no or few stamps. So if you have 3 stamps they will look at the dates and if they are not in close proximity they will count the days. IE:- You arrive in BKK and 5 days later are stamped in at Mae Hong Son and then again 2 days later at Mai Sai - no red flags you are probably a tourist, but on the other hand if you arrive from Cambodia and 29 days later come in from Cambodia and again 29 days later you arrive by the same checkpoint.. Rad flag.

One person arrived back in Thailand from a Laos visa run, end of last month, and got this stamp in their passport.

"Holder of this passport has visited Thailand too many times as a tourist and may be refused a visa next time."

Anything is possible at a border crossing so the best thing is to try and fit into the rules, and in all fairness he has been doing border runs for years without a problem, until now.

[Clip_My_Wings]

heres a suggestion for thai immigration to aid counting days ...

from oct 1st everyone has a clean slate .. i mean you are now al allowed 90 days in the six months.

you now get a new BIG stamp on 1st arrival (as when as the normal one) with the date of arrival and the end date of the six month period. on this you have a tally chart.

say you enter the 1st october and leave on the 10 October. The immigration officer realises this is ten days stamps your passport with the exit vias and adds the 10 day on the new big stamp on a tally chart. THE NEXT TIME you enter say you stay for 15 days ... the official only need count once when you leave and add the nb of days. when ypu arrive it is therefore easy for the immigration officer to only check the big stamp and not all the individual ones.

when you 6month period has elapsed then you get a nice new big stamp

NEW VISA

1 10 6 11

2 15 7

3 8

4 9

5 10

this process is then repeated.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Clip_My_Wings

[LivinLOS]

heres a suggestion for thai immigration to aid counting days ...

from oct 1st everyone has a clean slate .. i mean you are now al allowed 90 days in the six months.

you now get a new BIG stamp on 1st arrival (as when as the normal one) with the date of arrival and the end date of the six month period. on this you have a tally chart.

say you enter the 1st october and leave on the 10 October. The immigration officer realises this is ten days stamps your passport with the exit vias and adds the 10 day on the new big stamp on a tally chart. THE NEXT TIME you enter say you stay for 15 days ... the official only need count once when you leave and add the nb of days. when ypu arrive it is therefore easy for the immigration officer to only check the big stamp and not all the individual ones.

when you 6month period has elapsed then you get a nice new big stamp

NEW VISA

1 10 6 11

2 15 7

3 8

4 9

5 10

this process is then repeated.

Your whole suggestion falls apart when you understand that this is based on a rolling 6 month (the previous 180 - 183 days) and not a fixed 6 months which starts and stops cleaning the slate each time.

Think about it.

Still asking to define 6 months.. What is the prior 6 months to Aug 29 30 31 ?? Happens again to a lesser with every 30 v 31 day month.

[Barefoot]

In the US under the current system if you show up at an airport with either a 1 way ticket or return ticket which returns OVER 30 days, WITHOUT A VISA, you most definitely WILL NOT BE ALLOWED ON THE AIRLINE. I think the same from UK as well? So IT IS THE AIRLINES BUSINESS, OK?????

The ticket agents have information for each target country, and in the US anway, they ENFORCE the rules. That is because if they board you and you don't get in, they will be liable for all of the expenses to get you home. Understand now?

Those rules are super simple. The new rules are super complex. The airlines will not be bothered with studying every stamp in your passport.

This is incorrect with respect to the U.S. On July 28 I flew from the U.S. to Bangkok and my return flight was September 5 (41 days). The airline only cared that I had a round-trip ticket. I paid an 11-day overstay at the airport on the way home. The same thing happened on a previous trip of 35 days.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Barefoot

[LivinLOS]

when arriving at don meuang your passport is put through an electronic reader , i read that all entry and exit points in thailand now have those readers.

it should be an easy matter for the computers to be programmed to show, once your details have come up on the screen , the number of days in the country over the past 12 months .

all the delays and page turning and manual counting of days just wont happen.

No only 15 of the 55 broders are on the system according to BKK post and info repeated on here.

Next all dual passport holders (I have 2 UK passports)

Next all non machoine readable passports (one of mine)

Next any and all dual nationality holders (me again)..

Sure its possible to create all these things.. But just read the statement from the No 2 at the start of the thread.. "erm yeah.. Toughie.. Not sure.. But hey we have 90 days before we need one of those electronic things.. So really.. Loads of time.."

Given Thais ability to work to deadlines do you really thaink that are going to figure out and debug this system ??

[Thaiquila]

In the US under the current system if you show up at an airport with either a 1 way ticket or return ticket which returns OVER 30 days, WITHOUT A VISA, you most definitely WILL NOT BE ALLOWED ON THE AIRLINE. I think the same from UK as well? So IT IS THE AIRLINES BUSINESS, OK?????

The ticket agents have information for each target country, and in the US anway, they ENFORCE the rules. That is because if they board you and you don't get in, they will be liable for all of the expenses to get you home. Understand now?

Those rules are super simple. The new rules are super complex. The airlines will not be bothered with studying every stamp in your passport.

This is incorrect with respect to the U.S. On July 28 I flew from the U.S. to Bangkok and my return flight was September 5 (41 days). The airline only cared that I had a round-trip ticket. I paid an 11-day overstay at the airport on the way home. The same thing happened on a previous trip of 35 days.

You likely got an agent who didn't enforce or know the airline rule. Call the airline and ask them their policy.

[rak sa_ngop]

I have just left the Thai consulate in Vientiane with my new Tourist Visa (60 days, although not specifically stated).

When I was handed my passport the clerk flicked through the passport glancing at the numerous Thai. Laos, Vietnamese, Cambodian visas/stamps and said that next time I will have to apply for a different visa i.e no more Tourist visas for me from Vientiane. He also said what sounded like 'career visa' but when I asked him to repeat that he just said 'different visa'. Maybe he meant that I would have to apply in my own 'country'. Who knows.

[Soju]

If this is true that they will be counting days and not stamps, that that is truly good news. They will obviously need to come up with a solution so airlines don't have to count days. Also they will need to have computer systems installed at all entry points that can automatically count days. I know nothing about what is currently implemented at the check points, but from what I've heard reported it sounds like this could well be a major problem for them for a while until they get their computer systems upgraded and working properly.

I think the easiest solution to the airline problem, is what was already mentioned here and is similar to what I proposed recently - simply put a stamp in the passport when the limit has been reached. Thai immigration will have to work out the details on this, but there are many variations on the stamp method that should work fine. Many people's passports are very full, so it might be impossible to put the stamp in a prominent place, thus meaning airline check-in personnel would have to leaf through all the pages of a passport and potentially miss it. One solution to this would be that if the passenger is permitted to board the plane with the stamp, then when they enter Thailand they are returned home, but no fine is placed on the airline. If their ticket is such that they cannot immediately go home, they have the option of buying a new ticket to immediately leave, or they can choose to enter Thailand for 15 days, but will be blacklisted from returning for two years. That way, the airline doesn't really bear any responsibility other than trying to help the passenger in wasting their time flying to a country that won't permit them to enter. It's really solely the passenger's responsibility to abide by the immigration rules.

The proposed electronic solution, presumably to be installed at all world-wide checkpoints is truely laughable. It would have to be installed at every international airport in the world, and would need some backup in case the system was off-line. Absolutely totally unuseable IMHO. Hopefully this was just some off-the-cuff remark and no real thought ever went into this solution. If they are seriously considering this, then heaven help us because they'll never find a good solution if they're that far gone. Certainly an optional electronic solution could be installed at certain key airports as a secondary system for screening out passengers before boarding, but IMHO could never hope to catch all passengers and thus could never be the primary system for solving this problem.

So in my mind, all seems fine on this issue of stamps vs. days as problem seems to be solved, or at least solveable in the near future. Other than the possible case of some immigration points counting days, but others deciding to count stamps. But....

The big question is why did this reporting fiasco take place? Why are the newspaper that supposedly went to this newsconference so utterly incompetent? I guess it shouldn't really surprise me, as I find more often than not journalists are some of the most incompetent people around. I don't mean to paint them all with the same brush, as I've met some very decent and professional journalists. But certainly ones, such as evidenced here in this case, lack even a shred of competence. Don't they have the slightest clue as to who their readers are? One look at the response this topic has caused on Thai Visa easily shows that it's far and away the biggest news item of the entire year with respect to farangs living in or interested in Thailand. I can see a foreign paper printing a short summary of the news, which may leave open a lot of questions - I don't fault those newspapers. But for Thai-based foreign language papers to not have printed a full article, explaining all that was discussed at the new conference is pure nonsense. Forgive me if such an article was printed, but certainly all the ones I saw basically said pretty much the same thing and simply left more questions than answers. This report by Sabah Cafe & Cinema is the only decent report I've seen. Thanks Sabah Cafe & Cinema for the report! I am surprised that nobody else reported about this in such detail during the first 3 1/2 days after the conference. I'm really gobsmacked at your post, quoted below, that nobody else at that newsconference thought those details were important. Truly amazing.

At Fridays press conference at the Imperial Queens Park Hotel Suk soi22, the Commissioner of Thai Immigration Pol. LT Gen Suwat Tumrongsiskul said in front of dozens of press (including cameras from ITV and channel11) that

Days wil be counted, NOT stamps. It was repeated twice

Backed up with an example where a falang asked if you could enter and leave 90 times in 90 days. The answer was. Yes. The question was asked again to clarify rumours and the answer was repeated, only the days count. The person that asked the question is now reading this post over my shoulder confirming what he said.

[A_Traveller]

Swipe Data.

All machine readable passports only contain the digitial version of the user ID, equally the 'chip' passports contain only the ID data and a digital coded image file {effectively a 'secure' scan of the photo in the passport}.

Any additional data would need to be keyed in and recorded by the system {assuming there is a data set for it}. As I understand it 'trip' data is entered subsequently, at an input data centre, from the Immigration cards filled in by the passenger.

There is, at present, no 'instant' recording of an individual's travel activities. Unless additional information is asked on a new form, it's down to ruffling through the passport at the desk.

One should remember that the Grand Guild of Immigration Stampers has a world-wide competition for the most skilled at placing stamps at the greatest distance from each other. Prizes are awarded for also stamping on a new page for no reason

Regards

[LivinLOS]

Swipe Data.

All machine readable passports only contain the digitial version of the user ID, equally the 'chip' passports contain only the ID data and a digital coded image file {effectively a 'secure' scan of the photo in the passport}.

Any additional data would need to be keyed in and recorded by the system {assuming there is a data set for it}. As I understand it 'trip' data is entered subsequently, at an input data centre, from the Immigration cards filled in by the passenger.

There is, at present, no 'instant' recording of an individual's travel activities. Unless additional information is asked on a new form, it's down to ruffling through the passport at the desk.

One should remember that the Grand Guild of Immigration Stampers has a world-wide competition for the most skilled at placing stamps at the greatest distance from each other. Prizes are awarded for also stamping on a new page for no reason

Regards

Also remember that this passport tracking system will need to be at every EXIT point as well as every entry.. Day tracking demands knowing when someone leaves as well as when someone arrives..

So every one of 55 border locations, with 100% uptime, without error.. In Thailand One hole and the tally starts to fall apart..