After deal, Israel still vows to block an Iran nuclear bomb

[Seastallion]

"This is a regime based in deceit, and now they are going to do what they did for the last 20 years, which is trying to get themselves nuclear weapons behind the back of the world,"

The absolute gall of hypocritical Israel!

The sooner Iran is armed and able to defend itself against the overt aggressiveness of this hawkish state that thumbs it's nose to international laws and treaties, the better.

I am certain that if Israel attacks Iran, it will be the beginning of the end for Israel. And thus, lets just hope Israel is not so stupid.

[Scott]

I note some posters are singing the same old song, so you can expect the same old consequences, a suspension of posting.

Baiting others into nonsensical, off-topic discussions are not going to be tolerated.

[ABCer]

I am not silly and it is plain wrong to discount the other countries involved.

It's not a done deal until all the countries follow the proper protocols and sign.

Agreed on all three counts...

Yet, there is something nagging in the back of my mind.

According to a very crisp explanation from one of the posters I start getting the feeling that Iran is taking the rest of the World for a ride of their life.

Just for the sake of argument:

Assume that Iran WANTS to build nukes.

Assume that Iran HATES Israel and USA.

Assume that Iran WANTS to boost its military capability.

Assume that Iran NEEDS big money for its projects.

All the above assumptions are actually easy to make. As a matter of fact they are reality.

On the other hand the so called "DEAL" gives Iran all it needs and wants right now without any guarantee that it rejects this piece of paper tomorrow.

Assume that Iran WILL reject this useless paper the day after it got what it wants. We will all collectively be stuck with the great memory of a great ex-President.

Now about the other countries involved:

All of them are remote from Iran.

All of them are safe from its immediate aggression.

All of them are relatively big and technologically advanced.

All of them need oil.

All of them 'afraid' of spread of terrorism.

All of them are full of Muslims.

Now about the other countries concerned:

All of them are close to Iran.

All of them feel threatened by the developments.

All of them are considering to match Iran's actions by similar actions.

All of them reevaluating and improving relationships with... Israel!

All of them opposing the West - Iran politics.

Since I agreed from the start that you are not silly, - I leave you to make your own conclusions.

[Lissos]

The world wants peace not more war!

Pigs (apologies to bruised Muslim and Jewish 'sensitivities) have also exhibited considerable interest in flying.

[Credo]

I am not silly and it is plain wrong to discount the other countries involved.

It's not a done deal until all the countries follow the proper protocols and sign.

Agreed on all three counts...

Yet, there is something nagging in the back of my mind.

According to a very crisp explanation from one of the posters I start getting the feeling that Iran is taking the rest of the World for a ride of their life.

Just for the sake of argument:

Assume that Iran WANTS to build nukes.

Assume that Iran HATES Israel and USA.

Assume that Iran WANTS to boost its military capability.

Assume that Iran NEEDS big money for its projects.

All the above assumptions are actually easy to make. As a matter of fact they are reality.

On the other hand the so called "DEAL" gives Iran all it needs and wants right now without any guarantee that it rejects this piece of paper tomorrow.

Assume that Iran WILL reject this useless paper the day after it got what it wants. We will all collectively be stuck with the great memory of a great ex-President.

Now about the other countries involved:

All of them are remote from Iran.

All of them are safe from its immediate aggression.

All of them are relatively big and technologically advanced.

All of them need oil.

All of them 'afraid' of spread of terrorism.

All of them are full of Muslims.

Now about the other countries concerned:

All of them are close to Iran.

All of them feel threatened by the developments.

All of them are considering to match Iran's actions by similar actions.

All of them reevaluating and improving relationships with... Israel!

All of them opposing the West - Iran politics.

Since I agreed from the start that you are not silly, - I leave you to make your own conclusions.

Then, as I have stated before, perhaps those concerned countries should deal with the problem.

It would be nice to see some cooperation in that part of the world, especially if it is being done to prevent someone developing a nuclear bomb.

[Thorgal]

Israel has not the military capabilities to start a war against Iran on his own.

Iran has a lot of S300 missiles just to keep the IAF away from them.

I'm still waiting for the 'self-defence' card of Israel...to bypass international laws.

[notmyself]

Make of it what you will but it has to be remembered that Israel does not want peace, at any cost.

[Pinot]

As the world celebrates, Netanyahu and the Republicans weep. There are always winners and losers.

[Halion]

Deal ! what deal ?? Kerry and his crew could not negotiate a gang bang in a whore house with a fist full of hundred dollar bills.

Iran has been screwing with these delegations for years and given an inch they are demanding a mile. This really is sad and very ,very serious.

[samuibeachcomber]

Time will tell, that an historical humongous mistake has taken place here, the Iranians are not to be

trusted, nothing that they have done in the past 30 years has indicated that they're peace loving

nation who want to coexist with it's neighbours, by no stretch of the wildest imaginations,

so why they will change soon? all the have to look is at N. Korea and they gets to dictate their will

on the world, and the world is too afraid to get them angry or call their bluff....

Note that Israel did everything to establish and maintain good relations with its neighbors...

The fact that more a billion Muslims around definitely hate and wish its disappearance is necessarily due to bad luck .

Add to this that the unstated objective of Daesh necessarily be oriented towards a solid front against this country and we can look forward with optimism the bloody aftermath.

surrounded by millions of hostile neighbours(jordan excepted) i would not believe Iran's intent either,and since when has the UN body the nuclear watch dog ever been successful monitoring anything.You cant trust arabs and you cant trust persians who i believe are not arabs.

[dexterm]

When Israel allows nuclear inspections then perhaps the world may give a damn what they think.

And you know of Israel's nuclear capabilities or existences how exactly? discounting unfounded rumors

and estimates of course..... while the Iranian ambitions and capabilities are well known....

discounting unfounded rumors

You'd better ask Mordechai Vanunu about that. He worked at Israel's secret nuclear facilities and spent 18 years in prison, including more than 11 in solitary confinement, for exposing Israel's secret nuclear program

"Mordechai Vanunu is a former Israeli nuclear technician who, citing his opposition to weapons of mass destruction, revealed details of Israel's nuclear weapons program to the British press in 1986 He was subsequently lured to Italy by a Mossad agent, where he was drugged and abducted by Israeli intelligence agents He was transported to Israel and ultimately convicted in a trial that was held behind closed doors."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

[Chicog]

You really think Israel will bomb?

Wow.

The reason I say Wow is because I think Obama clearly doesn't want them to ... so that would be really rogue.

You seem to think Obama wants them to bomb. I don't get how you think that.

Sure most of the republicans would be OK with Israel bombing ... but last I checked they don't have the WHITE HOUSE.

Obama has done everything in his power to destabilize the Middle East and isolate Israel, do you really think that this is just serial incompetence? Find what Michael Oren the ex-Israeli ambassador to the U.S has to say about relations between the two nations during Obama's presidency.

P.s Israel has developed it's own bunker buster.

http://www.thomaswictor.com/israel-issues-its-final-warning/

Obama destabilised the Middle East?

Comical revisioinism.

[Chicog]

Time will tell, that an historical humongous mistake has taken place here, the Iranians are not to be

trusted, nothing that they have done in the past 30 years has indicated that they're peace loving

nation who want to coexist with it's neighbours, by no stretch of the wildest imaginations,

so why they will change soon? all the have to look is at N. Korea and they gets to dictate their will

on the world, and the world is too afraid to get them angry or call their bluff....

Note that Israel did everything to establish and maintain good relations with its neighbors...

The fact that more a billion Muslims around definitely hate and wish its disappearance is necessarily due to bad luck .

Add to this that the unstated objective of Daesh necessarily be oriented towards a solid front against this country and we can look forward with optimism the bloody aftermath.

surrounded by millions of hostile neighbours(jordan excepted) i would not believe Iran's intent either,and since when has the UN body the nuclear watch dog ever been successful monitoring anything.You cant trust arabs and you cant trust persians who i believe are not arabs.

You don't know any Arabs or Persians, do you?

[Pakboong]

The complete and abject capitulation by the P5 was predictable ages ago, the delays have been mere theatre allowing Iran to squeeze out even more concessions. Israel will bomb the Iranian installations, that is certain and was imho Obama's plan all along, the worse the deal the more certain this outcome.

The only remaining question is whether or not the Israelis wait for congress to signal their rejection of the deal or whether they strike beforehand.

P.S Benjamin Netanyahu opened a memorial center commemorating the raid on Entebbe the other day, the timing is not coincidental, the Israelis know what they have to do and they will do it.

You really think Israel will bomb?

Wow.

The reason I say Wow is because I think Obama clearly doesn't want them to ... so that would be really rogue.

You seem to think Obama wants them to bomb. I don't get how you think that.

Sure most of the republicans would be OK with Israel bombing ... but last I checked they don't have the WHITE HOUSE.

This deal between Obama and Iran has a 'disaster' written all over it. By signing it USA is forcing Israelis to take matter in their own hands.

Israel talks less but acts decisively. The reason is: - what for USA is a political issue for Israel is a matter of State security if not survival.

In a way it is better that Israelis will have to do it alone. Looking at USA recorded history of such OPs - less chance of a botched action.

IMHO it is not a healthy attitude to characterise Israel's actions as "rogue" because Obama does not want them. State security is of primary concern for any country.

Having to do it alone pretty much tells the whole story. They should have to do it alone. I certainly do not want the men and women of my country to lose their lives over this paranoia. This issue has been before the world since the Rabin administration some 23 years ago. Nothing new about any of it. I don't know how long it has to simmer but 23 years seems like a long time to me. That is close to an entire generation.

[NeverSure]

Israel has not the military capabilities to start a war against Iran on his own.

[Pakboong]

Don't be silly. It is mostly a deal between the U.S. and Iran. So if the U.S. congress overrides the Obama veto does that mean the billions don't get sent to Iran?

In my mind, it is a deal between the Military industrial complex and Obama. We will be facing some tough times and it doesn't matter enough to cut the only operation in the US that actually produces. AIPAC isn't the only lobby that really matters to Obama.

[Lissos]

As the world celebrates....

Yes, well the world 'celebrated' when Chamberlain made his deal with the infamous Austrian because the world was understandably weary of war and sought peace at 'any' cost.

Obama's team insist this was not a deal taking place with 'any cost' underpinning the whole thing. I guess time will tell. Celebrating averting conflict is understandable as long as it truly does nip it in the bud, and doesn't simply buy one player time to arm themselves more effectively.

Once they have, it is too late crying over spilt milk. It has been Netanyahu's argument all along that prevention is better than trying to administer a cure later, in the thick of thrashing, screaming and wailing. On the surface this makes him come across as a war monger, but then again his task is to protect the Jewish homeland and if it means not trusting Iran's Islamic Theocracy one little bit, then that is how things will be. After all, unless I'm mistaken the U.S is still the Great Shaitan, Britain is still the Little Shaitan and Israel? Well the name isn't officially recognised in Iran, and that should speak volumes as long as the clerics of the Khomeini era still lord in the shadows.

[arjunadawn]

I cannot see where any could object to this video. It is brilliant art. It captures in few minutes the history, the pointlessness, and the futility of modern expectations regarding the Levant. This video is actually the only history lesson people need to then turn their backs and walk away from this quagmire. It is hubris to presume that empowered with... with actually nothing more than others at all, modern man seeks to impose on this region that which has never been- peace. I like this video a great deal. Thank you.

[Seastallion]

Israel has not the military capabilities to start a war against Iran on his own.

Don't laugh, it's true.

Without backing from the US, without airspace permission from some Arab countries, Israel can not.

If you want to focus on "military capabilities", it is also true. Israel does not have enough boots to put boots on the ground in Iran, so it may start something, but can not finish it.

[Steely Dan]

Don't be silly. It is mostly a deal between the U.S. and Iran. So if the U.S. congress overrides the Obama veto does that mean the billions don't get sent to Iran?

In my mind, it is a deal between the Military industrial complex and Obama. We will be facing some tough times and it doesn't matter enough to cut the only operation in the US that actually produces. AIPAC isn't the only lobby that really matters to Obama.

You are probably correct here, though I would observe Israel has always been the testing bed for the industrial military complex as a direct result of her location. Israel should have attacked Iran the moment Obama first showed his true colors, they will of course be blamed by everyone when they attack Iran, but had they not attacked Syria some 11 years ago ISIS might already have the bomb. It eludes me how any rational human being can make a moral distinction between ISIS and Iran, but I guess some of our esteemed members are incapable of making such distinction between Iran and Israel.

[notmyself]

I cannot see where any could object to this video. It is brilliant art. It captures in few minutes the history, the pointlessness, and the futility of modern expectations regarding the Levant. This video is actually the only history lesson people need to then turn their backs and walk away from this quagmire. It is hubris to presume that empowered with... with actually nothing more than others at all, modern man seeks to impose on this region that which has never been- peace. I like this video a great deal. Thank you.

Shows many things including why Israel considers itself on rocky ground with regard to statehood. Worst decision since off side was not given in the international philosophy final between Greece and Germany.

[dexterm]

Don't be silly. It is mostly a deal between the U.S. and Iran. So if the U.S. congress overrides the Obama veto does that mean the billions don't get sent to Iran?

In my mind, it is a deal between the Military industrial complex and Obama. We will be facing some tough times and it doesn't matter enough to cut the only operation in the US that actually produces. AIPAC isn't the only lobby that really matters to Obama.

You are probably correct here, though I would observe Israel has always been the testing bed for the industrial military complex as a direct result of her location. Israel should have attacked Iran the moment Obama first showed his true colors, they will of course be blamed by everyone when they attack Iran, but had they not attacked Syria some 11 years ago ISIS might already have the bomb. It eludes me how any rational human being can make a moral distinction between ISIS and Iran, but I guess some of our esteemed members are incapable of making such distinction between Iran and Israel.

but I guess some of our esteemed members are incapable of making such distinction between Iran and Israel.

That's easy...Iran is the one that does not attack and start wars with its neighbors. Whereas Israel has a very long track record of starting conflicts, and they are sabre rattling again now.

Isn't it about time Israel tried something different...like making peace with its neighbors so that the world will recognize Israel in secure borders and be onside if it is attacked.

In the current instance, I am pretty sure after all these years of negotiations to secure a deal with Iran, if Israel blows it with a unilateral unprovoked and unnecessary attack, p5+1 are going to be mightily irate with Israel

Edited July 15, 2015 by dexterm

[NeverSure]

Israel has not the military capabilities to start a war against Iran on his own.

Don't laugh, it's true.

Without backing from the US, without airspace permission from some Arab countries, Israel can not.

If you want to focus on "military capabilities", it is also true. Israel does not have enough boots to put boots on the ground in Iran, so it may start something, but can not finish it.

When Israel starts something it's over in Six Days. Or two hours. If Israel attacks Iran, it will be hit and run with bunkers imploded, harbors devastated and the rest of the world will be sitting wondering what happened.

[Chicog]

Israel has not the military capabilities to start a war against Iran on his own.

Don't laugh, it's true.

Without backing from the US, without airspace permission from some Arab countries, Israel can not.

If you want to focus on "military capabilities", it is also true. Israel does not have enough boots to put boots on the ground in Iran, so it may start something, but can not finish it.

When Israel starts something it's over in Six Days. Or two hours. If Israel attacks Iran, it will be hit and run with bunkers imploded, harbors devastated and the rest of the world will be sitting wondering what happened.

No, the rest of the world will note that America supplied the weapons.

[notmyself]

Bibi rejected the deal before it was announced so as to try and scupper it. Israel has never wanted peace and to suggest that they ever have is puerile.

Why is this land so important since it has no oil under it?

[chuckd]

Israel has not the military capabilities to start a war against Iran on his own.

Don't laugh, it's true.

Without backing from the US, without airspace permission from some Arab countries, Israel can not.

If you want to focus on "military capabilities", it is also true. Israel does not have enough boots to put boots on the ground in Iran, so it may start something, but can not finish it.

How do you know the Israelis don't already have overflight authorization?

Why would boots on the ground be a requirement?

Israel doesn't plan to colonize Iran, they only want to take out their nuclear capability.

[Jingthing]

Israel does have the military capability to slow down the Iranian nuclear program somewhat. But that's all, and what would the price be? So I don't think Israel will really act on that, but I understand why they are considering it.

[Seastallion]

Israel has not the military capabilities to start a war against Iran on his own.

Don't laugh, it's true.

Without backing from the US, without airspace permission from some Arab countries, Israel can not.

If you want to focus on "military capabilities", it is also true. Israel does not have enough boots to put boots on the ground in Iran, so it may start something, but can not finish it.

<snip>

Why would boots on the ground be a requirement?

Israel doesn't plan to colonize Iran, they only want to take out their nuclear capability.

Because if they start something, they need to be able to finish it. Plus, this time, the world would not sit idly by as Israel once again goes on the unprovoked offensive in the sham name of "defence".

It would be the end of Israel as we know it.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Seastallion

[Biikqth]

"That's easy...Iran is the one that does not attack and start wars with its neighbors. Whereas Israel has a very long track record of starting conflicts, and they are sabre rattling again now.

Isn't it about time Israel tried something different...like making peace with its neighbors so that the world will recognize Israel in secure borders and be onside if it is attacked.

In the current instance, I am pretty sure after all these years of negotiations to secure a deal with Iran, if Israel blows it with a unilateral unprovoked and unnecessary attack, p5+1 are going to be mightily irate with Israel"

The above comments must have been made in humour because they so far from reality.

Iran currently has troops in Iraq and Syria. It has fired upon foreign-owned merchant ships in international waters in the Gulf. It supplies and supports terrorist organisations such as Hezbollah in Lebanon and other groups attacking Israel, Afghanistan and Yemen. The only attack on Iran was from Iraq in 1980 (which lasted until 1988 and ended in a highly costly stalemate for both countries). No other country or supported organisation has attacked or threatened Iran since, which is hardly surprising since Iran has around 80 million people and a large military, making it much more powerful than any neighbouring country.

Israel on the other hand has suffered two major attacks from multiple neighbouring countries aimed at destroying it, in 1967 and 1973. It responded and won. Attacks by Israeli forces into Lebanon and Palestinian territories, regardless of whether they were seen as justifiable and sensible or not, were in response to extensive and extended rocket attacks on Israel at its civilian population. Neighbouring governments, including Iran, continue to call for the destruction of Israel and supply weapons to attack Israel.

There is not a single country in the world that would sit back and allow itself to be continually attacked and its civilians killed without responding. The USA, UK, France, China definitely would respond with massive force. Russia has recently sent troops into Ukraine on the pretext of protecting 'russian' people.

What you have to ask is who is doing the threatening and initiating the violence? It doesn't seem to me to be Israel, although they do play hard ball in a deadly game here.

Finally, if Israel did attack Iran, do you really think Israel would worry about upsetting the other western countries? Israel sees that it is fighting for its very existence and the lives of millions of its citizens. Upsetting other countries is down the list of its concerns. However I suspect that many western countries might be quietly pleased if Iran's nuclear program was destroyed.

Lets hope this Iran does observe the agreement and Israel keeps its planes and bombs home.

[Jingthing]

What are the chances that Iran actually keeps to this agreement?

I'd say almost nothing.

They know once this gets started it will very difficult to reverse, regardless of the language of the agreement.