Greek Parliament passes austerity bill

[uptheos]

What happened to all the old Drachma's - have they the resources to print new ones?

[Asiantravel]

" The Greek people never voted to enter the euro … it was forced upon them by Goldman Sachs and their politicians."

Martin Armstrong economist and Nigel Farage

[SheungWan]

" The Greek people never voted to enter the euro … it was forced upon them by Goldman Sachs and their politicians."

Martin Armstrong economist and Nigel Farage

The bizarre junk people come out with.

[sandyf]

Almost a foregone conclusion. They falsified their accounts to join the EU in the first place so they could live beyond their means at someone else's expense.

Actually they will be making a big mistake if they think that they can attempt to play the same party trick. Tsipras will have to deliver otherwise the next time they turf themselves out/are turfed out. The key is implementation of any supply-side structural measures. Syriza will be split on that one.

The Germans are still suggesting that Greece makes a temporary exit to write down the debt. Probably hoping for a temporary arrangement on a permanent basis.

Some are suggesting. That is not the official position. However, the EU will not take much messing around from Greece if there is clear evidence of non-compliance re the agreement. Not business as usual this time. Tsipras will have been read the riot act.

It is a fairly influential "some" and will really depend on how far he wants to push it, battle of personalities rather than an official position.

"Had it been up to Schäuble, Germany would have shown the Greeks the euro-zone door long ago. His problem, however, is that the chancellor doesn't share this sentiment. Merkel rejects his insistence because she doesn't want to go down in history as the government leader responsible for the disintegration of Europe."

"Moreover, Schäuble enjoys a special place in Merkel's cabinet. He has been a member of German parliament, the Bundestag, since 1972; he served under Helmut Kohl as interior minister and party leader; and he negotiated the reunification treaty in 1990. Shortly thereafter, he was shot and crippled by a mentally ill man. Schäuble isn't simply a politician, he's a piece of German history, and therefore untouchable. He even has the chutzpah to threaten Merkel with his resignation should she force him to act against his convictions. "If anyone were to try, I could go to the president and ask to be relieved of my duties," he told SPIEGEL in an interview."

[SheungWan]

It is a fairly influential "some" and will really depend on how far he wants to push it, battle of personalities rather than an official position.

"Had it been up to Schäuble, Germany would have shown the Greeks the euro-zone door long ago. His problem, however, is that the chancellor doesn't share this sentiment. Merkel rejects his insistence because she doesn't want to go down in history as the government leader responsible for the disintegration of Europe."

"Moreover, Schäuble enjoys a special place in Merkel's cabinet. He has been a member of German parliament, the Bundestag, since 1972; he served under Helmut Kohl as interior minister and party leader; and he negotiated the reunification treaty in 1990. Shortly thereafter, he was shot and crippled by a mentally ill man. Schäuble isn't simply a politician, he's a piece of German history, and therefore untouchable. He even has the chutzpah to threaten Merkel with his resignation should she force him to act against his convictions. "If anyone were to try, I could go to the president and ask to be relieved of my duties," he told SPIEGEL in an interview."

My read is that Schauble is putting down a marker that next time Greece is out. In fact this time they nearly were out the door and once Tsipras knew that the game was up, he folded. If Greece plays its game of musical chairs and has an election some months down the road to force Tsipras out in favour of Varoufakis or in any other way effectively repudiate the agreement, the Euro members will not hang about.

[sandyf]

It is a fairly influential "some" and will really depend on how far he wants to push it, battle of personalities rather than an official position.

"Had it been up to Schäuble, Germany would have shown the Greeks the euro-zone door long ago. His problem, however, is that the chancellor doesn't share this sentiment. Merkel rejects his insistence because she doesn't want to go down in history as the government leader responsible for the disintegration of Europe."

"Moreover, Schäuble enjoys a special place in Merkel's cabinet. He has been a member of German parliament, the Bundestag, since 1972; he served under Helmut Kohl as interior minister and party leader; and he negotiated the reunification treaty in 1990. Shortly thereafter, he was shot and crippled by a mentally ill man. Schäuble isn't simply a politician, he's a piece of German history, and therefore untouchable. He even has the chutzpah to threaten Merkel with his resignation should she force him to act against his convictions. "If anyone were to try, I could go to the president and ask to be relieved of my duties," he told SPIEGEL in an interview."

My read is that Schauble is putting down a marker that next time Greece is out. In fact this time they nearly were out the door and once Tsipras knew that the game was up, he folded. If Greece plays its game of musical chairs and has an election some months down the road to force Tsipras out in favour of Varoufakis or in any other way effectively repudiate the agreement, the Euro members will not hang about.

Quite agree. If the founding members of the Common Market had stuck to the original plans the problems would never have arisen in the first place.

I was stationed in Germany well before the Euro came about and had to drive around Europe with a variety of currencies in the glove compartment in case you needed the toilet. No one in central Europe really wants to get back to that situation. Border posts used to run across motorways causing tailbacks for miles, who wants to see that again.

It took the best part of 30 years to get the Euro introduced and border control dismantled and it could all collapse over countries sitting on the periphery.

[SheungWan]

It is a fairly influential "some" and will really depend on how far he wants to push it, battle of personalities rather than an official position.

"Had it been up to Schäuble, Germany would have shown the Greeks the euro-zone door long ago. His problem, however, is that the chancellor doesn't share this sentiment. Merkel rejects his insistence because she doesn't want to go down in history as the government leader responsible for the disintegration of Europe."

"Moreover, Schäuble enjoys a special place in Merkel's cabinet. He has been a member of German parliament, the Bundestag, since 1972; he served under Helmut Kohl as interior minister and party leader; and he negotiated the reunification treaty in 1990. Shortly thereafter, he was shot and crippled by a mentally ill man. Schäuble isn't simply a politician, he's a piece of German history, and therefore untouchable. He even has the chutzpah to threaten Merkel with his resignation should she force him to act against his convictions. "If anyone were to try, I could go to the president and ask to be relieved of my duties," he told SPIEGEL in an interview."

My read is that Schauble is putting down a marker that next time Greece is out. In fact this time they nearly were out the door and once Tsipras knew that the game was up, he folded. If Greece plays its game of musical chairs and has an election some months down the road to force Tsipras out in favour of Varoufakis or in any other way effectively repudiate the agreement, the Euro members will not hang about.

Quite agree. If the founding members of the Common Market had stuck to the original plans the problems would never have arisen in the first place.

I was stationed in Germany well before the Euro came about and had to drive around Europe with a variety of currencies in the glove compartment in case you needed the toilet. No one in central Europe really wants to get back to that situation. Border posts used to run across motorways causing tailbacks for miles, who wants to see that again.

It took the best part of 30 years to get the Euro introduced and border control dismantled and it could all collapse over countries sitting on the periphery.

When, rather than running the country, Tsipras and Varoufakis went on their grand tour around Europe, they expected to recruit the peripheral countries to their cause and instead had a big shock when not one of them was interested in giving Greece their support. In fact they (the peripheral states) have been amazed at the ridiculous behaviour of Syriza which has reduced the Greek banks to virtual collapse with their nonsensical brinkmanship. If anything the current crisis has solidified European unity against that of Greece.

Edited July 19, 2015 by SheungWan

[sandyf]

My read is that Schauble is putting down a marker that next time Greece is out. In fact this time they nearly were out the door and once Tsipras knew that the game was up, he folded. If Greece plays its game of musical chairs and has an election some months down the road to force Tsipras out in favour of Varoufakis or in any other way effectively repudiate the agreement, the Euro members will not hang about.

Quite agree. If the founding members of the Common Market had stuck to the original plans the problems would never have arisen in the first place.

I was stationed in Germany well before the Euro came about and had to drive around Europe with a variety of currencies in the glove compartment in case you needed the toilet. No one in central Europe really wants to get back to that situation. Border posts used to run across motorways causing tailbacks for miles, who wants to see that again.

It took the best part of 30 years to get the Euro introduced and border control dismantled and it could all collapse over countries sitting on the periphery.

When, rather than running the country, Tsipras and Varoufakis went on their grand tour around Europe, they expected to recruit the peripheral countries to their cause and instead had a big shock when not one of them was interested in giving Greece their support. In fact they (the peripheral states) have been amazed at the ridiculous behaviour of Syriza which has reduced the Greek banks to virtual collapse with their nonsensical brinkmanship. If anything the current crisis has solidified European unity against that of Greece.

If it were only Greece.

"These states. Greece, Portugal, Ireland,Spain & Cyprus were unable to repay or refinance their government debt or to bail out over-indebted banks under their national supervision without the assistance of third parties like the EFSF, the ECB, or the IMF."

[SheungWan]

My read is that Schauble is putting down a marker that next time Greece is out. In fact this time they nearly were out the door and once Tsipras knew that the game was up, he folded. If Greece plays its game of musical chairs and has an election some months down the road to force Tsipras out in favour of Varoufakis or in any other way effectively repudiate the agreement, the Euro members will not hang about.

Quite agree. If the founding members of the Common Market had stuck to the original plans the problems would never have arisen in the first place.

I was stationed in Germany well before the Euro came about and had to drive around Europe with a variety of currencies in the glove compartment in case you needed the toilet. No one in central Europe really wants to get back to that situation. Border posts used to run across motorways causing tailbacks for miles, who wants to see that again.

It took the best part of 30 years to get the Euro introduced and border control dismantled and it could all collapse over countries sitting on the periphery.

When, rather than running the country, Tsipras and Varoufakis went on their grand tour around Europe, they expected to recruit the peripheral countries to their cause and instead had a big shock when not one of them was interested in giving Greece their support. In fact they (the peripheral states) have been amazed at the ridiculous behaviour of Syriza which has reduced the Greek banks to virtual collapse with their nonsensical brinkmanship. If anything the current crisis has solidified European unity against that of Greece.

If it were only Greece.

"These states. Greece, Portugal, Ireland,Spain & Cyprus were unable to repay or refinance their government debt or to bail out over-indebted banks under their national supervision without the assistance of third parties like the EFSF, the ECB, or the IMF."

The issue that makes Greece different is the (to-date) refusal to implement structural changes and in the case of Syriza, try to roll back structural changes agreed to by the previous government. That is the key difference between Greece and the others. Refinancing debt is not the fundamental issue. Refinancing debt with the debtor country making changes is. Carrying out changes under supervision is sometimes necessary. The big misatke of Syriza is always to go for added taxes and refuse structural changes. Why? Because they don't know how to manage themselves and live in a world of make believe. Maybe they are going out anyway. One thing is certain: Ireland and the Baltic States aren't. They are not fools. Varafoukis is. Tsipras? he is the cat with one more life.

[sandyf]

When, rather than running the country, Tsipras and Varoufakis went on their grand tour around Europe, they expected to recruit the peripheral countries to their cause and instead had a big shock when not one of them was interested in giving Greece their support. In fact they (the peripheral states) have been amazed at the ridiculous behaviour of Syriza which has reduced the Greek banks to virtual collapse with their nonsensical brinkmanship. If anything the current crisis has solidified European unity against that of Greece.

If it were only Greece.

"These states. Greece, Portugal, Ireland,Spain & Cyprus were unable to repay or refinance their government debt or to bail out over-indebted banks under their national supervision without the assistance of third parties like the EFSF, the ECB, or the IMF."

The issue that makes Greece different is the (to-date) refusal to implement structural changes and in the case of Syriza, try to roll back structural changes agreed to by the previous government. That is the key difference between Greece and the others. Refinancing debt is not the fundamental issue. Refinancing debt with the debtor country making changes is. Carrying out changes under supervision is sometimes necessary. The big misatke of Syriza is always to go for added taxes and refuse structural changes. Why? Because they don't know how to manage themselves and live in a world of make believe. Maybe they are going out anyway. One thing is certain: Ireland and the Baltic States aren't. They are not fools. Varafoukis is. Tsipras? he is the cat with one more life.

My point was that Greece along with other peripheral countries put the Euro under pressure. The Euro and EU would be sound if they stuck to the original plan.

[SheungWan]

When, rather than running the country, Tsipras and Varoufakis went on their grand tour around Europe, they expected to recruit the peripheral countries to their cause and instead had a big shock when not one of them was interested in giving Greece their support. In fact they (the peripheral states) have been amazed at the ridiculous behaviour of Syriza which has reduced the Greek banks to virtual collapse with their nonsensical brinkmanship. If anything the current crisis has solidified European unity against that of Greece.

If it were only Greece.

"These states. Greece, Portugal, Ireland,Spain & Cyprus were unable to repay or refinance their government debt or to bail out over-indebted banks under their national supervision without the assistance of third parties like the EFSF, the ECB, or the IMF."

The issue that makes Greece different is the (to-date) refusal to implement structural changes and in the case of Syriza, try to roll back structural changes agreed to by the previous government. That is the key difference between Greece and the others. Refinancing debt is not the fundamental issue. Refinancing debt with the debtor country making changes is. Carrying out changes under supervision is sometimes necessary. The big misatke of Syriza is always to go for added taxes and refuse structural changes. Why? Because they don't know how to manage themselves and live in a world of make believe. Maybe they are going out anyway. One thing is certain: Ireland and the Baltic States aren't. They are not fools. Varafoukis is. Tsipras? he is the cat with one more life.

My point was that Greece along with other peripheral countries put the Euro under pressure. The Euro and EU would be sound if they stuck to the original plan.

I think that is slightly a different topic to what should be done about Greece. However, the reported discussions this morning about lengthening (again) date maturities for Greek debt will reduce the effective interest rates to peppercorn levels. Now either Greece gets on board with the structural reforms insisted upon by the adults in the room or they bomb out of the Euro, take up a devalued New Drachma plus, if anybody wants to lend money to them, very high interest rates to go with that. Only a fool would go with the latter, but hey, Varafoukis and the ultra-left/right will be standing by.