The EU structural inadequacies

[sirineou]

This is a subject that should be important to all of as, as it is to me.

Not sure if this is the right sub-forum for it, if not please move to appropriate sub-forum

We had several discussions in this forum , concerning the Euro crises , and more specifically the Greek part in it ,

I just watched an hour long seminar on the subject between Yanis Varoufakis former Greek finance minister and Joseph Stiglitz world renowned economist, former vice president and chief economist of the world bank and Nobel price recipient. that took place several months ago, but is still salient , and could give a hint on the mindset of past and future negotiations.

I found it to be very informative and apropos to the situation, and wanted to share it with anyone who is truly interested in the current EU situation.and has a basic grasp of macro-economics

[media]

[media]

[manarak]

Jeez, I hate videos with actual content, they force me to take as long as anyone to understand what's being said.

The structural inadequacy is simply that a single currency doesn't make a single economy.

When a country's cash flow is negative, it cannot simply indefinitely keep printing money to pay for pensions and state employees.

Stiglitz is a leftist who believes in egalitarianism... his views on the economy are accordingly skewed.

[Thai at Heart]

Sir Alan Walters predicted the structural failure of the Euro from day one. Thanks god the politicians paid heed and kept the UK out of it.

The marker will break it, or there will be a federal govt. It will not survive in its current form.

[swissie]

Before this gets buried in the "Economics-Forum", or "Home Country Sub-Forum" this should remain in the "General-Forum". Structural- Inadequacies and many other factors affecting currency-exchange rates are of immediate concern to "Expats".

For Expats, especially in a volatile (currency) Environment, this IS a Thai Issue and is well placed in the "General-Forum".

Cheers.

[sirineou]

Sir Alan Walters predicted the structural failure of the Euro from day one. Thanks god the politicians paid heed and kept the UK out of it.

The marker will break it, or there will be a federal govt. It will not survive in its current form.

fail in it's original form, as you astutely observed, But I am not sure there was any one who ever believed it would ever survive in it's original form.

and you are right, the market did brake it, but is it broken beyond repair?Is this cricis the impetus that could force the necessary reforms?

These points were touched upon in the seminar.

I think it would be helpful to watch the discussion and agree with it's points, or present competing points of views.

Either way, I am willing to learn

[sirineou]

Before this gets buried in the "Economics-Forum", or "Home Country Sub-Forum" this should remain in the "General-Forum". Structural- Inadequacies and many other factors affecting currency-exchange rates are of immediate concern to "Expats".

For Expats, especially in a volatile (currency) Environment, this IS a Thai Issue and is well placed in the "General-Forum".

Cheers.

I could not agree more, this is directly affecting the standard of living of many expats living here in Thailand.

Unfortunately, given my suspicious nature, I can not help but think that though a devaluated Euro is not good for expats living in Thailand , it does help Europe's export prospects.

and that Greece, and the expat might be a sacrificial lambs in that alter.

I can not help but think that the German economy benefits much more from a evaluated Euro, than looses from Greece's inability to pay the money owed to them

[Thai at Heart]

Sir Alan Walters predicted the structural failure of the Euro from day one. Thanks god the politicians paid heed and kept the UK out of it.

The marker will break it, or there will be a federal govt. It will not survive in its current form.

fail in it's original form, as you astutely observed, But I am not sure there was any one who ever believed it would ever survive in it's original form.

and you are right, the market did brake it, but is it broken beyond repair?Is this cricis the impetus that could force the necessary reforms?

These points were touched upon in the seminar.

I think it would be helpful to watch the discussion and agree with it's points, or present competing points of views.

Either way, I am willing to learn

Well the only solution is a federal govt with the ability to take up to 15% of GDP as taxes.. You think every country in the EU wants that?

So inevitably, if that reform isn't under taken, it will happen again, until they make that reform, or it breaks.

[Craig krup]

The real issue is very different from what people think. Money is only a way of swapping goods and services. Governments need to "do something" during a downturn, so they generate inflation, which allows workers to price themselves into jobs without taking actual nominal pay cuts. This also makes the debt denominated in your own currency less onerous. But you then get an inflationary spiral, and the next time you have to borrow it costs a lot more.

There is a real issue in that one interest rate isn't appropriate for every single country, but you could say that about the US, and (indeed) Panama and (effectively) Hong Kong used the dollar without any real problem. Money is just for swapping stuff - that should be taught in P1.

The real problem with Greece is that workers demand - and public sector workers are given - 13 to 14 Euros an hour, but their real productivity is that of Romanians and Bulgarians, and they should price their labour at 3-4 Euros an hour. Then they'd have jobs, and be as poor as their productivity requires them to be. Greek pensioners are getting 900 Euros while Slovaks get 400. The Greeks want to live as Germans do, without doing any of the things that Germans do. Most of their problems have got absolutely nothing to do with the currency, and suddenly deciding that you're after all hopeless - and adopting worthless paper as your national currency (Drachma) - makes no sense. If you've come to the point of accepting that you're no more productive than your Bulgarian neighbour then punt your labour at 4 Euros, and pay your state employees 4 Euros, and suddenly you have full employment. Start collecting taxes. Telkl the Germans that you'll pay the nominal debt plus inflation or plus 1.5%, whichever is lower. They'd accept this. If a debt pile isn't actually growing in real terms then it isn't "unsustainable". But they - and lots of other people - don't want to think or change, so probably it's straight from here to the scene of the accident. Or, more accurately, the scene of the riots.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Craig krup

[sirineou]

Sir Alan Walters predicted the structural failure of the Euro from day one. Thanks god the politicians paid heed and kept the UK out of it.

The marker will break it, or there will be a federal govt. It will not survive in its current form.

fail in it's original form, as you astutely observed, But I am not sure there was any one who ever believed it would ever survive in it's original form.

and you are right, the market did brake it, but is it broken beyond repair?Is this cricis the impetus that could force the necessary reforms?

These points were touched upon in the seminar.

I think it would be helpful to watch the discussion and agree with it's points, or present competing points of views.

Either way, I am willing to learn

Well the only solution is a federal govt with the ability to take up to 15% of GDP as taxes.. You think every country in the EU wants that?

So inevitably, if that reform isn't under taken, it will happen again, until they make that reform, or it breaks.

Sure this is the inevitable evolutionary goal.

But until such time, there must be some intermediate steps that would address some of the inadequacies and allow economies to become more compatible. and converge.

Hopefully by that time we get over our "otherness" and realize,

if indeed it is true,

that a federation is beneficial to all, and the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

otherwise what are the alternatives?

Given the variables, and hurt feelings between member nations Do you think it is possible?

IMO what is being imposed on Greece is not conducive towards that end.

Anyway I hope some people watch that seminar, and comment on the content, what they said sounded plausible, but perhaps there is a different point of view that makes better sense.

[Thai at Heart]

The real issue is very different from what people think. Money is only a way of swapping goods and services. Governments need to "do something" during a downturn, so they generate inflation, which allows workers to price themselves into jobs without taking actual nominal pay cuts. This also makes the debt denominated in your own currency less onerous. But you then get an inflationary spiral, and the next time you have to borrow it costs a lot more.

There is a real issue in that one interest rate isn't appropriate for every single country, but you could say that about the US, and (indeed) Panama and (effectively) Hong Kong used the dollar without any real problem. Money is just for swapping stuff - that should be taught in P1.

The real problem with Greece is that workers demand - and public sector workers are given - 13 to 14 Euros an hour, but their real productivity is that of Romanians and Bulgarians, and they should price their labour at 3-4 Euros an hour. Then they'd have jobs, and be as poor as their productivity requires them to be. Greek pensioners are getting 900 Euros while Slovaks get 400. The Greeks want to live as Germans do, without doing any of the things that Germans do. Most of their problems have got absolutely nothing to do with the currency, and suddenly deciding that you're after all hopeless - and adopting worthless paper as your national currency (Drachma) - makes no sense. If you've come to the point of accepting that you're no more productive than your Bulgarian neighbour then punt your labour at 4 Euros, and pay your state employees 4 Euros, and suddenly you have full employment. Start collecting taxes. Telkl the Germans that you'll pay the nominal debt plus inflation or plus 1.5%, whichever is lower. They'd accept this. If a debt pile isn't actually growing in real terms then it isn't "unsustainable". But they - and lots of other people - don't want to think or change, so probably it's straight from here to the scene of the accident. Or, more accurately, the scene of the riots.

The problem is that the Greek govt was able to borrow at the same rate as the Germans for far too long. The pricing mechanism for debt in the euro is wrong.

They have to move to a USA federal and state system with both entities able to levy taxes. One Europe wide the other as state taxes on a country basis.

[Thai at Heart]

Sir Alan Walters predicted the structural failure of the Euro from day one. Thanks god the politicians paid heed and kept the UK out of it.

The marker will break it, or there will be a federal govt. It will not survive in its current form.

fail in it's original form, as you astutely observed, But I am not sure there was any one who ever believed it would ever survive in it's original form.

and you are right, the market did brake it, but is it broken beyond repair?Is this cricis the impetus that could force the necessary reforms?

These points were touched upon in the seminar.

I think it would be helpful to watch the discussion and agree with it's points, or present competing points of views.

Either way, I am willing to learn

Well the only solution is a federal govt with the ability to take up to 15% of GDP as taxes.. You think every country in the EU wants that?

So inevitably, if that reform isn't under taken, it will happen again, until they make that reform, or it breaks.

Sure this is the inevitable evolutionary goal.

But until such time, there must be some intermediate steps that would address some of the inadequacies and allow economies to become more compatible. and converge.

Hopefully by that time we get over our "otherness" and realize,

if indeed it is true,

that a federation is beneficial to all, and the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

otherwise what are the alternatives?

Given the variables, and hurt feelings between member nations Do you think it is possible?

IMO what is being imposed on Greece is not conducive towards that end.

Anyway I hope some people watch that seminar, and comment on the content, what they said sounded plausible, but perhaps there is a different point of view that makes better sense.

Anything is possible. But look at the distance between the upper and lower countries in the rankings for wealth. Then, can you really see a European president much as the USA has one? Largely impossible.

[CharlieH]

Not Thai related as dictated by forum description.

MOVED to Homecountry

[NeverSure]

The study of economics is a study of theories. Theories get momentum and become popular even if they are crazy. Anyone who still follows the schools of those who invented the Euro is wearing very effective blinders.

One problem is that those who created the disaster are being asked to fix it using the same theories. These theories have permeated Europe for decades and are creating issues that are unsustainable. Even without the Euro, the UK's debt is approaching that of the US as a percentage of GDP, but the UK doesn't have the valuable natural resources, the technology or the manufacturing engine to sustain it. As my mother used to say, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." One proof of the unsustainable UK model is the failure of the NHS which will spill over as attempts are made to sustain it. The NHS is the canary in the coal mine for the UK. Greece is the canary in the coal mine for the Eurozone.

The Euro's days are numbered. I just wonder if the geniuses who dreamed it up, and the geniuses who gave up national monetary sovereignty will ever admit their mistakes.

Cheers

[NeverSure]

They have to move to a USA federal and state system with both entities able to levy taxes. One Europe wide the other as state taxes on a country basis.

Europe can't do that. There are too many different cultures. See Germany vs Greece.

Americans are culturally cohesive and are not trying to hold diverse countries and even languages together as one. The reason for the independent states is to keep politics and therefore leadership local. Schools, streets and roads, police and fire departments can be managed better locally. Local funding means local interest by taxpayers.

Look at the Eurozone and see how many people believe they have no say. They don't even speak the same language. In the US everyone feels like he has a say in everything. Total freedom of speech is another important aspect to empower people rather than government.

America formed from 13 British colonies during and after revolting against the King of England in the Revolutionary War. That set the tone of the country and it hasn't changed. People had a reason for togetherness but the country is so huge that before there was even a telegraph things had to be accomplished locally. A state seems huge on horseback. So does a county.

Europe has turned socialist with PC thinking that lets anyone rock up to anyone's border and stake a claim of entitlement. The claimant doesn't have to earn it. He's entitled. The PC shit has gone so far that hard working and productive countries such as the UK and Germany are being overrun by blood suckers with different cultures.

The wake up call that starts a change will be a total crash. It's up to Europe as to whether it learns anything and gets back to basics, or whether it embraces the next step of stupidity from some "economist" and some other dreamers.

Cheers

[sirineou]

fail in it's original form, as you astutely observed, But I am not sure there was any one who ever believed it would ever survive in it's original form.

and you are right, the market did brake it, but is it broken beyond repair?Is this cricis the impetus that could force the necessary reforms?

These points were touched upon in the seminar.

I think it would be helpful to watch the discussion and agree with it's points, or present competing points of views.

Either way, I am willing to learn

Well the only solution is a federal govt with the ability to take up to 15% of GDP as taxes.. You think every country in the EU wants that?

So inevitably, if that reform isn't under taken, it will happen again, until they make that reform, or it breaks.

Sure this is the inevitable evolutionary goal.

But until such time, there must be some intermediate steps that would address some of the inadequacies and allow economies to become more compatible. and converge.

Hopefully by that time we get over our "otherness" and realize,

if indeed it is true,

that a federation is beneficial to all, and the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

otherwise what are the alternatives?

Given the variables, and hurt feelings between member nations Do you think it is possible?

IMO what is being imposed on Greece is not conducive towards that end.

Anyway I hope some people watch that seminar, and comment on the content, what they said sounded plausible, but perhaps there is a different point of view that makes better sense.

Anything is possible. But look at the distance between the upper and lower countries in the rankings for wealth. Then, can you really see a European president much as the USA has one? Largely impossible.

No I can not see a European president at this time, the amount of distrust among the member states at this time is insurmountable at this and a long time to come.

as I said intermediate reforms need to be taken to converge economies.

unfortunately in similar competing economies, in order to have winners you need to have losers. This problem can be overcome by having specialized non competing economies.

In the case of Greece, it's economy is a three legged stool.

Agriculture, Shipping, and Tourism , The 23% vat on restaurants and catering imposed on Greece, will hurt tourism. It;s not like tourists will cook their own food.

If there is a bright spot on the Greek economy, it is the shipping industry. Greece controls 19% of the oceans dry tonnage and 25% of oil tankers. The increase of tax on this industry threatens a large percentage of Greece's economy. as many of these ship owners will move their flags to tax heavens in other countries.

I dont see, how such austerity measures will be conducive to the growth of the Greek economy, and provide a pathway towards economic convergence . Same discrepancies but to a lesser extend exist in Spain, Portugal, Ireland and many other so called peripheral countries.

Not an optimistic situation But perhaps the geniuses who are negotiating these things know something we do not.

[Thai at Heart]

fail in it's original form, as you astutely observed, But I am not sure there was any one who ever believed it would ever survive in it's original form.

and you are right, the market did brake it, but is it broken beyond repair?Is this cricis the impetus that could force the necessary reforms?

These points were touched upon in the seminar.

I think it would be helpful to watch the discussion and agree with it's points, or present competing points of views.

Either way, I am willing to learn

Well the only solution is a federal govt with the ability to take up to 15% of GDP as taxes.. You think every country in the EU wants that?

So inevitably, if that reform isn't under taken, it will happen again, until they make that reform, or it breaks.

Sure this is the inevitable evolutionary goal.

But until such time, there must be some intermediate steps that would address some of the inadequacies and allow economies to become more compatible. and converge.

Hopefully by that time we get over our "otherness" and realize,

if indeed it is true,

that a federation is beneficial to all, and the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

otherwise what are the alternatives?

Given the variables, and hurt feelings between member nations Do you think it is possible?

IMO what is being imposed on Greece is not conducive towards that end.

Anyway I hope some people watch that seminar, and comment on the content, what they said sounded plausible, but perhaps there is a different point of view that makes better sense.

Anything is possible. But look at the distance between the upper and lower countries in the rankings for wealth. Then, can you really see a European president much as the USA has one? Largely impossible.

No I can not see a European president at this time, the amount of distrust among the member states at this time is insurmountable at this and a long time to come.

as I said intermediate reforms need to be taken to converge economies.

unfortunately in similar competing economies, in order to have winners you need to have losers. This problem can be overcome by having specialized non competing economies.

In the case of Greece, it's economy is a three legged stool.

Agriculture, Shipping, and Tourism , The 23% vat on restaurants and catering imposed on Greece, will hurt tourism. It;s not like tourists will cook their own food.

If there is a bright spot on the Greek economy, it is the shipping industry. Greece controls 19% of the oceans dry tonnage and 25% of oil tankers. The increase of tax on this industry threatens a large percentage of Greece's economy. as many of these ship owners will move their flags to tax heavens in other countries.

I dont see, how such austerity measures will be conducive to the growth of the Greek economy, and provide a pathway towards economic convergence . Same discrepancies but to a lesser extend exist in Spain, Portugal, Ireland and many other so called peripheral countries.

Not an optimistic situation But perhaps the geniuses who are negotiating these things know something we do not.

All of these interim things can happen but they dont change the fundamental problem with the structure of the euro. Greece will continue to be in trouble for 30 years or more now. Then who is going to be the next country who can't pay its bills. Hell they had 4 or 5, Italy and Spain are permenantly in the brink.

[sirineou]

fail in it's original form, as you astutely observed, But I am not sure there was any one who ever believed it would ever survive in it's original form.

and you are right, the market did brake it, but is it broken beyond repair?Is this cricis the impetus that could force the necessary reforms?

These points were touched upon in the seminar.

I think it would be helpful to watch the discussion and agree with it's points, or present competing points of views.

Either way, I am willing to learn

Well the only solution is a federal govt with the ability to take up to 15% of GDP as taxes.. You think every country in the EU wants that?

So inevitably, if that reform isn't under taken, it will happen again, until they make that reform, or it breaks.

Sure this is the inevitable evolutionary goal.

But until such time, there must be some intermediate steps that would address some of the inadequacies and allow economies to become more compatible. and converge.

Hopefully by that time we get over our "otherness" and realize,

if indeed it is true,

that a federation is beneficial to all, and the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

otherwise what are the alternatives?

Given the variables, and hurt feelings between member nations Do you think it is possible?

IMO what is being imposed on Greece is not conducive towards that end.

Anyway I hope some people watch that seminar, and comment on the content, what they said sounded plausible, but perhaps there is a different point of view that makes better sense.

Anything is possible. But look at the distance between the upper and lower countries in the rankings for wealth. Then, can you really see a European president much as the USA has one? Largely impossible.

No I can not see a European president at this time, the amount of distrust among the member states at this time is insurmountable at this and a long time to come.

as I said intermediate reforms need to be taken to converge economies.

unfortunately in similar competing economies, in order to have winners you need to have losers. This problem can be overcome by having specialized non competing economies.

In the case of Greece, it's economy is a three legged stool.

Agriculture, Shipping, and Tourism , The 23% vat on restaurants and catering imposed on Greece, will hurt tourism. It;s not like tourists will cook their own food.

If there is a bright spot on the Greek economy, it is the shipping industry. Greece controls 19% of the oceans dry tonnage and 25% of oil tankers. The increase of tax on this industry threatens a large percentage of Greece's economy. as many of these ship owners will move their flags to tax heavens in other countries.

I dont see, how such austerity measures will be conducive to the growth of the Greek economy, and provide a pathway towards economic convergence . Same discrepancies but to a lesser extend exist in Spain, Portugal, Ireland and many other so called peripheral countries.

Not an optimistic situation But perhaps the geniuses who are negotiating these things know something we do not.

All of these interim things can happen but they dont change the fundamental problem with the structure of the euro. Greece will continue to be in trouble for 30 years or more now. Then who is going to be the next country who can't pay its bills. Hell they had 4 or 5, Italy and Spain are permenantly in the brink.

of course you are right,

Yanis Varufakis, the then Greek finance minister agreed with you and resigned rather than put his name on this agreement, The IMF agrees with you,Cristine Lagarde said yesterday that " no solution for Greece is possible without debt restructuring, " and "

The debt reduction can be achieved through an extension of debt maturities, an extension of grace periods and a maximum reduction of interest rates"

No financial annalist I listen to on financial news thinks that the current agreement enforced on Greece is viable, or makes any sense.

Yet Germany insists on it.

I dont get it,

what do they know that everyone else does not?

[Thai at Heart]

fail in it's original form, as you astutely observed, But I am not sure there was any one who ever believed it would ever survive in it's original form.

and you are right, the market did brake it, but is it broken beyond repair?Is this cricis the impetus that could force the necessary reforms?

These points were touched upon in the seminar.

I think it would be helpful to watch the discussion and agree with it's points, or present competing points of views.

Either way, I am willing to learn

Well the only solution is a federal govt with the ability to take up to 15% of GDP as taxes.. You think every country in the EU wants that?

So inevitably, if that reform isn't under taken, it will happen again, until they make that reform, or it breaks.

Sure this is the inevitable evolutionary goal.

But until such time, there must be some intermediate steps that would address some of the inadequacies and allow economies to become more compatible. and converge.

Hopefully by that time we get over our "otherness" and realize,

if indeed it is true,

that a federation is beneficial to all, and the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

otherwise what are the alternatives?

Given the variables, and hurt feelings between member nations Do you think it is possible?

IMO what is being imposed on Greece is not conducive towards that end.

Anyway I hope some people watch that seminar, and comment on the content, what they said sounded plausible, but perhaps there is a different point of view that makes better sense.

Anything is possible. But look at the distance between the upper and lower countries in the rankings for wealth. Then, can you really see a European president much as the USA has one? Largely impossible.

No I can not see a European president at this time, the amount of distrust among the member states at this time is insurmountable at this and a long time to come.

as I said intermediate reforms need to be taken to converge economies.

unfortunately in similar competing economies, in order to have winners you need to have losers. This problem can be overcome by having specialized non competing economies.

In the case of Greece, it's economy is a three legged stool.

Agriculture, Shipping, and Tourism , The 23% vat on restaurants and catering imposed on Greece, will hurt tourism. It;s not like tourists will cook their own food.

If there is a bright spot on the Greek economy, it is the shipping industry. Greece controls 19% of the oceans dry tonnage and 25% of oil tankers. The increase of tax on this industry threatens a large percentage of Greece's economy. as many of these ship owners will move their flags to tax heavens in other countries.

I dont see, how such austerity measures will be conducive to the growth of the Greek economy, and provide a pathway towards economic convergence . Same discrepancies but to a lesser extend exist in Spain, Portugal, Ireland and many other so called peripheral countries.

Not an optimistic situation But perhaps the geniuses who are negotiating these things know something we do not.

All of these interim things can happen but they dont change the fundamental problem with the structure of the euro. Greece will continue to be in trouble for 30 years or more now. Then who is going to be the next country who can't pay its bills. Hell they had 4 or 5, Italy and Spain are permenantly in the brink.

of course you are right,

Yanis Varufakis, the then Greek finance minister agreed with you and resigned rather than put his name on this agreement, The IMF agrees with you,Cristine Lagarde said yesterday that " no solution for Greece is possible without debt restructuring, " and "

The debt reduction can be achieved through an extension of debt maturities, an extension of grace periods and a maximum reduction of interest rates"

No financial annalist I listen to on financial news thinks that the current agreement enforced on Greece is viable, or makes any sense.

Yet Germany insists on it.

I dont get it,

what do they know that everyone else does not?

That is as maybe, but there is also a fundamental weakness at the heart of the EURO. A central bank without a central govt with fiscal power. The ecb does not have direct control of the money supply in each member state. They cannot manipulate the money supply to best match demand or supply at the time.

Without that, the Euro will now continue to lurch from crisis to crisis.

[NeverSure]

unfortunately in similar competing economies, in order to have winners you need to have losers.

This might be the fundamental disagreement between socialists and capitalists. Capitalism doesn't believe this at all. Socialism believes there is just one pot of wealth to share, and capitalism insists on creating new wealth. Capitalism encourages everyone to create new wealth but people won't do that unless they get to keep it. It's human nature. Socialism believes you need to take from those who have to have enough to share.

Planting a crop and harvesting it creates new wealth. Mining iron ore and turning it into steel creates new wealth. Manufacturing that into a car further increases the wealth. Manufacture enough of those cars from available resources and everyone can have new wealth - a car. But everyone must contribute to the effort at some point in the process. If not cars, then they must be engaged in the work of making new televisions "for everyone". This is called "productivity", but everyone must contribute.

When you get enough people who won't work and who won't contribute to the process, then there aren't enough cars for everyone so only the highest producers who earned the most money will have a car. The lack of supply of cars also drives the prices up.

The way to prosperity for all is a booming economy which creates new wealth. Look at the guys in Silicon Valley in the US who have brought us the computer and all of the software and web sites (Google is there as is Intel, etc.) through the past decades. Good jobs for everyone because they can't keep up with new technology and growth. Money flows freely even to maids and housekeepers and landscapers because there's such a demand.

There is never a demand for people who won't work. There is only tolerance by do-gooders. There sharing should be of the work, not the fruits of the work.

Cheers

[NeverSure]

PS. Let Greece rot until the people get hungry enough to get to work. Let the government fail until people no longer are used to looking to it for support. Let them fail. The hard workers in the UK and Germany can't afford to support the lazy %#$@%$.

Cheers.

[sirineou]

PS. Let Greece rot until the people get hungry enough to get to work. Let the government fail until people no longer are used to looking to it for support. Let them fail. The hard workers in the UK and Germany can't afford to support the lazy %#$@%$.

Cheers.

Wow,,, despite the closing sentiment , there was not very much cheer in this reply.

I was under the impression that it was against the rules of this forum to defame a whole nationality, but I guess I stand corrected.

By the way, has anyone watched this seminar, and if so , what is their opinion on specific points?

[sirineou]

unfortunately in similar competing economies, in order to have winners you need to have losers.

This might be the fundamental disagreement between socialists and capitalists. Capitalism doesn't believe this at all. Socialism believes there is just one pot of wealth to share, and capitalism insists on creating new wealth. Capitalism encourages everyone to create new wealth but people won't do that unless they get to keep it. It's human nature. Socialism believes you need to take from those who have to have enough to share.

Planting a crop and harvesting it creates new wealth. Mining iron ore and turning it into steel creates new wealth. Manufacturing that into a car further increases the wealth. Manufacture enough of those cars from available resources and everyone can have new wealth - a car. But everyone must contribute to the effort at some point in the process. If not cars, then they must be engaged in the work of making new televisions "for everyone". This is called "productivity", but everyone must contribute.

When you get enough people who won't work and who won't contribute to the process, then there aren't enough cars for everyone so only the highest producers who earned the most money will have a car. The lack of supply of cars also drives the prices up.

The way to prosperity for all is a booming economy which creates new wealth. Look at the guys in Silicon Valley in the US who have brought us the computer and all of the software and web sites (Google is there as is Intel, etc.) through the past decades. Good jobs for everyone because they can't keep up with new technology and growth. Money flows freely even to maids and housekeepers and landscapers because there's such a demand.

There is never a demand for people who won't work. There is only tolerance by do-gooders. There sharing should be of the work, not the fruits of the work.

Cheers

Just because you say it , it does not make it so,

The proposition concerning winners and losers in similar economies is certainly a capitalist proposition.Where you found socialism is beyond me, are you sure you worked with in the banking system?

For instance if Greece was to develop an industry that took market share away from Germany, it goes to follow, that Germany would loose market share

winners and losers, simple concept .

On the other hand, if Greece was to develop and grow it's shipping industry, it would not be competing with Germany, as Germany is not heavily invested in shipping.In such scenario

both countries would win, because Greeks would buy cars from the Germans with their shipping profits, and Germans will build more cars and use Greek shipping to deliver them,

a win win situation,

One that the tax imposed on shipping threatens to undermine

Also I wish you refrain from accusing the Greeks of being "lazy" as a result for the predicament they are in now.You simply don't know what you are talking about

According to Der Spiegel

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/complicit-in-corruption-how-german-companies-bribed-their-way-to-greek-deals-a-693973.html

"Germany is one of Greece's leading trading partners. Last year, Germany exported goods worth €6.7 billion ($8.5 billion) to Greece -- compared to a volume of imports of only €1.9 billion. But what methods are used to achieve this enormous surplus?

According to the US Securities and Exchange Commission, for example, German carmaker Daimler has paid miza in past years to pave the way for vehicle deliveries to Greece. And even Germany's national railway operator Deutsche Bahn apparently resorted to bribes to win an underground railway contract in the run-up to the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens. To clinch the deal, a six-digit sum was reportedly given to a Greek decision-maker via an adviser. Transparency International rates Greece as the one of the most corrupt countries in Europe.

Such business deals are highly lucrative -- even with miza. "Anyone who pays bribes to get a government contract can pad his margin with a few extra million," says one investigator. "The excessive prices are of course shouldered by taxpayers."

Can you spell Odious debt

It takes two to tango, there was certainly a lot of tangoing going on, mostly on the back of the Greek people.

Cheeres

[manarak]

Also I wish you refrain from accusing the Greeks of being "lazy" as a result for the predicament they are in now.You simply don't know what you are talking about

Ahem... I have Greek friends and visited them in Greece, they were the first to blast their lazy countrymen !

[manarak]

Also I wish you refrain from accusing the Greeks of being "lazy" as a result for the predicament they are in now.You simply don't know what you are talking about

Ahem... I have Greek friends and visited them in Greece, they were the first to blast their lazy countrymen !

[manarak]

Also I wish you refrain from accusing the Greeks of being "lazy" as a result for the predicament they are in now.You simply don't know what you are talking about

Ahem... I have Greek friends and visited them in Greece, they were the first to blast their lazy countrymen !

[sirineou]

Also I wish you refrain from accusing the Greeks of being "lazy" as a result for the predicament they are in now.You simply don't know what you are talking about

Ahem... I have Greek friends and visited them in Greece, they were the first to blast their lazy countrymen !

and here I was thinking I wold have a serious discussion of the issue

[NeverSure]

Just because you say it , it does not make it so,

The proposition concerning winners and losers in similar economies is certainly a capitalist proposition.Where you found socialism is beyond me, are you sure you worked with in the banking system?

For instance if Greece was to develop an industry that took market share away from Germany, it goes to follow, that Germany would loose market share

winners and losers, simple concept .

On the other hand, if Greece was to develop and grow it's shipping industry, it would not be competing with Germany, as Germany is not heavily invested in shipping.In such scenario

both countries would win, because Greeks would buy cars from the Germans with their shipping profits, and Germans will build more cars and use Greek shipping to deliver them,

a win win situation,

One that the tax imposed on shipping threatens to undermine.

This again is the difference in beliefs. Economists are theorists. They often get it wrong as is seen in Europe right now.

If Greece took market share from Germans... This belies what happened after WWII and indeed throughout the industrial revolution. BTW the Industrial Revolution saw automobiles and airplanes take market share from blacksmiths and buggy makers and saddle makers but people in general got wealthier from the production of the new wealth.

After WWII America dominated manufacturing to include auto manufacturing. In the 1950's and 1960's Germany began to flood the shores of America with VW bugs. This took market share from Detroit and Detroit has never gained that back. But the US now has about 17 different companies manufacturing cars including VW and even a larger percentage of Americans work in auto manufacturing.

In the mid to late 1960's Japan began flooding the US with Toyotas and Datsuns while Detroit remained unable to build a good small car. Detroit lost market share until it learned to compete. Now all consumers are better off with the choices of Detroit or VW or Japanese. Detroit found its niche and the best selling car in America is and has been for many years the Ford F150 pickup.

As companies learned to compete car manufacturing got more automated and it takes less labor to make one that it did decades ago. This has made it possible for many more people to own a car, expanding markets.

All of the new jobs since then in technology from TV's to smartphones to computers, software, peripherals, etc. didn't even exist then. This is all new wealth, new jobs, new retail stores... New wealth is massive from the internet which didn't exist.

Greece has failed to grow with the rest of the world, has failed to create new wealth and its suffering is its own fault. It wants the wealth that has been produced by the UK and Germany.

[NeverSure]

Look at autos only. Germany and Japan came out of the ashes of WWII and by hard work joined the world economy producing quality products - new wealth. New wealth means more wealth to go around and just look at the jobs Japan has created for Thailand. Mercedes and BMW have taken the world as quality cars and they have manufacturing plants in the US. Ford and Chevy have manufacturing plants in Canada and Mexico and Ford is in Thailand. That's all new wealth.

Japan flooded the US with quality cars and now manufactures the Toyotas, Hondas, Toyota pickups etc. in the US for the US market. So does Lexus. That's new wealth for both the US and Japan.

What kind of car, scooter, TV, computer, smartphone, etc. is made in Greece? Why is that?

Cheers

[sirineou]

Look at autos only. Germany and Japan came out of the ashes of WWII and by hard work joined the world economy producing quality products - new wealth. New wealth means more wealth to go around and just look at the jobs Japan has created for Thailand. Mercedes and BMW have taken the world as quality cars and they have manufacturing plants in the US. Ford and Chevy have manufacturing plants in Canada and Mexico and Ford is in Thailand. That's all new wealth.

Japan flooded the US with quality cars and now manufactures the Toyotas, Hondas, Toyota pickups etc. in the US for the US market. So does Lexus. That's new wealth for both the US and Japan.

What kind of car, scooter, TV, computer, smartphone, etc. is made in Greece? Why is that?

Cheers

NS, in this thread , I am afraid you are compliantly missing the point

This thread is about the structural inadequacies of the EU that have lead to this crisis.

are there other factors that led to this impasse? Sure, but that's not what we are talking about are the structural inadequacies with in the EU, what are they, how they contributed to this impasse, and how can they be overcome.

A main problem is divergent economies under the same currency, and how these economies can be made to converge with out hurting each other, so that the Euro can work as a common concurrency.

To say that the Greeks find themselves in this situation because they are "lazy" aside from

being racist, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding on the events that have led to this Greek situation, and threaten to unravel the EU.

I admite that in many subjects I am profoundly ignorant, ans as such, I refrain from forming an opinion, knowing that not only such opinion would be ignorant , but that at the same time I will make that ignorance evident to others. I am not saying this to insult you, even in other subjects where we disagree, you exhibit intelligence, and understanding of the issues.

No to in this case so far

and I am afraid you owe an apology to the Greek people for calling them "Lazy" , they are anything but that.

After WWII (and even before then) but for the purposes of this discussion, After WWII Greece got caught is a geopolitical game between the West and East not of it's own making, and was subjected to strains not present in other countries.For Greece WWII ended in 1974 with the fall of the military Junta that was installed in Greece by the west to combat the spread of communism in to the Mediterranean, It was marred with a civil war , again resulting from the political strains between the capitalist west and the communist east.political assassinations etc etc. A history too long a shorted to adequately examine in this reply. .

before then and after that, Greece was ruled by two dynastic political families, Papandreou, and Caramanlis. Their tenure was marked with pervasive corruption that western countries used to promote their agenda, enriching them selves and the politicians, and bridle the common Greeks with debt. This corrupt politicians, used a client system , to gain and maintain power, rewarding with jobs and pensions those who supported them and punishing those who did not. It was this dysfunctional system of governance that led to the current Greek situation.

http://www.spiegel.d...s-a-693973.html

The Greek government pretended to represent them,and Greeks pretended to pay tax. Would you want to pay your tax, if you knew that much of it would go in the pockets of corrupt politicians?

Case and point , Greeks are "Lazy" and economically unsuccessful with in Greece, but hard working and overly successful far beyond their representative numbers in other countries. How do you reconcile that?

So lt's get back at the subject at hand

Structural inadequacies with in the EU and can they be overcome. If you are interested ,watch the video I posted, you might not agree with it, but promises you you will find it interesting.

Post your own with opposing views, I am not beyond learning something new.

[NeverSure]

Look at autos only. Germany and Japan came out of the ashes of WWII and by hard work joined the world economy producing quality products - new wealth. New wealth means more wealth to go around and just look at the jobs Japan has created for Thailand. Mercedes and BMW have taken the world as quality cars and they have manufacturing plants in the US. Ford and Chevy have manufacturing plants in Canada and Mexico and Ford is in Thailand. That's all new wealth.

Japan flooded the US with quality cars and now manufactures the Toyotas, Hondas, Toyota pickups etc. in the US for the US market. So does Lexus. That's new wealth for both the US and Japan.

What kind of car, scooter, TV, computer, smartphone, etc. is made in Greece? Why is that?

Cheers

NS, in this thread , I am afraid you are compliantly missing the point

This thread is about the structural inadequacies of the EU that have lead to this crisis.

are there other factors that led to this impasse? Sure, but that's not what we are talking about are the structural inadequacies with in the EU, what are they, how they contributed to this impasse, and how can they be overcome.

A main problem is divergent economies under the same currency, and how these economies can be made to converge with out hurting each other, so that the Euro can work as a common concurrency.

To say that the Greeks find themselves in this situation because they are "lazy" aside from

being racist, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding on the events that have led to this Greek situation, and threaten to unravel the EU.

I admite that in many subjects I am profoundly ignorant, ans as such, I refrain from forming an opinion, knowing that not only such opinion would be ignorant , but that at the same time I will make that ignorance evident to others. I am not saying this to insult you, even in other subjects where we disagree, you exhibit intelligence, and understanding of the issues.

No to in this case so far

and I am afraid you owe an apology to the Greek people for calling them "Lazy" , they are anything but that.

After WWII (and even before then) but for the purposes of this discussion, After WWII Greece got caught is a geopolitical game between the West and East not of it's own making, and was subjected to strains not present in other countries.For Greece WWII ended in 1974 with the fall of the military Junta that was installed in Greece by the west to combat the spread of communism in to the Mediterranean, It was marred with a civil war , again resulting from the political strains between the capitalist west and the communist east.political assassinations etc etc. A history too long a shorted to adequately examine in this reply. .

before then and after that, Greece was ruled by two dynastic political families, Papandreou, and Caramanlis. Their tenure was marked with pervasive corruption that western countries used to promote their agenda, enriching them selves and the politicians, and bridle the common Greeks with debt. This corrupt politicians, used a client system , to gain and maintain power, rewarding with jobs and pensions those who supported them and punishing those who did not. It was this dysfunctional system of governance that led to the current Greek situation.

http://www.spiegel.d...s-a-693973.html

The Greek government pretended to represent them,and Greeks pretended to pay tax. Would you want to pay your tax, if you knew that much of it would go in the pockets of corrupt politicians?

Case and point , Greeks are "Lazy" and economically unsuccessful with in Greece, but hard working and overly successful far beyond their representative numbers in other countries. How do you reconcile that?

So lt's get back at the subject at hand

Structural inadequacies with in the EU and can they be overcome. If you are interested ,watch the video I posted, you might not agree with it, but promises you you will find it interesting.

Post your own with opposing views, I am not beyond learning something new.

You have your idea of what this thread is about and I have mine.

I think it's about a structure that has productive, wealth creating countries frustrated at trying to carry a country which isn't. I think it's about the failure of socialism in Greece. I think it's a study in negative things that happen when the productive try to support the unproductive while the unproductive expect it as a human right. I think it's the canary in the coal mine because this type of entitlement socialism is pervasive in Europe. Europe is failing.

It is inevitable the the brilliant "economists" who dreamed up the Euro and yes, the Eurozone's free movement of the unproductive people to productive countries will fail. It is failing as we watch. The UK is shooting debt to the moon and it's buying it's own phony debt for several reasons, but that's grotesque. How long can you loan yourself money?

Germany and the UK are panicked about the prospect of even losing Greece as a sign that the Euro and Eurozone are failing because there's much more to come after Greece. It's simply not sustainable. The Euro was a massive mistake but where does even Germany go when it fails?

The proof in any debate will be that failure. It is failing.

Cheers.