cumgranosalum Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Nope, haven't moved any goal posts, I was just making another point. Is that ok with you? Just a quick search on Pub Med, brings up this. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24595780 It's not a particulary good example, but it highlights that there are opposing facts to your dogmatic approach. We could go at 'it' all day.....but there's no real need, is there? Unless of course, you need to be right all the time. Id hardly call that proof it works, yes we can keep going at it....if thats ok with you? Didn't call it proof. In fact, if you read the bit in bold.... Ok, now I'm going to post something else. And the reason I'm doing this is to see how you react. Ok, my dear chap? What are your thoughts on Placebos? Be VERY careful with placebos - you'll need to cite some pretty definitive medical trials...not just some crap you've Googled...there are however a couple of good medical authors on this Ben Goldacre and Mark Crislip....needless to say they don't entirely agree.....but that's science for you! Edited July 23, 2015 by cumgranosalum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 There is a very good reason to why there is a distinction between "modern/western medicine" and "everything else". People can believe what they want but believing things like "avoiding certain people" will do you any good or bad is just plain ignorant. And i use ignorant lightly as stronger words aren't allowed on this forum. Open your mind dude. People like you used to laugh hen others suggested the world was round. ... erm ... not really ..... it was the people who believed in superstitions who laughed when the scientists suggested that the Earth was round .... sorry ...... spherical. I feel the Galileo Gambit gambit coming on....there are so many cliches on this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 My wife and presumably all her family believe in ghosts. Everyone had to sleep in the mother's house after she was burned to prevent her spirit inhabiting the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 There is a very good reason to why there is a distinction between "modern/western medicine" and "everything else". People can believe what they want but believing things like "avoiding certain people" will do you any good or bad is just plain ignorant. And i use ignorant lightly as stronger words aren't allowed on this forum. Open your mind dude. People like you used to laugh hen others suggested the world was round. ... erm ... not really ..... it was the people who believed in superstitions who laughed when the scientists suggested that the Earth was round .... sorry ...... spherical. I feel the Galileo Gambit gambit coming on....there are so many cliches on this thread! Guess this thread is about paradigms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 My wife and presumably all her family believe in ghosts. Everyone had to sleep in the mother's house after she was burned to prevent her spirit inhabiting the house. Did it help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Nope, haven't moved any goal posts, I was just making another point. Is that ok with you? Just a quick search on Pub Med, brings up this. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24595780 It's not a particulary good example, but it highlights that there are opposing facts to your dogmatic approach. We could go at 'it' all day.....but there's no real need, is there? Unless of course, you need to be right all the time. Id hardly call that proof it works, yes we can keep going at it....if thats ok with you? Didn't call it proof. In fact, if you read the bit in bold.... Ok, now I'm going to post something else. And the reason I'm doing this is to see how you react. Ok, my dear chap? What are your thoughts on Placebos? Be VERY careful with placebos - you'll need to cite some pretty definitive medical trials...not just some crap you've Googled...there are however a couple of good medical authors on this Ben Goldacre and Mark Crislip....needless to say they don't entirely agree.....but that's science for you! This is moderately interesting............. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17017561 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Nope, haven't moved any goal posts, I was just making another point. Is that ok with you? Just a quick search on Pub Med, brings up this. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24595780 It's not a particulary good example, but it highlights that there are opposing facts to your dogmatic approach. We could go at 'it' all day.....but there's no real need, is there? Unless of course, you need to be right all the time. Id hardly call that proof it works, yes we can keep going at it....if thats ok with you? Didn't call it proof. In fact, if you read the bit in bold.... Ok, now I'm going to post something else. And the reason I'm doing this is to see how you react. Ok, my dear chap? What are your thoughts on Placebos? pardon me whilst i amputate your leg with 1 a GA or 2 the placebo........u choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 pardon me whilst i amputate your leg with 1 a GA or 2 the placebo........u choose? Can I choose which leg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KonaRain Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Placebo effect can be stronger than pharm. drugs! Acupuncture is real.. I'm not mixing my 'metaphors'.. am I? Check out dr. Bruce Lipton..fractal cells..stem cells..epi genetics, which means WE affect our DNA.. Good morning Thailand..enjoy today, will ya!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) pardon me whilst i amputate your leg with 1 a GA or 2 the placebo........u choose? Can I choose which leg? NO. This decision is up to the butcher, because he's a doctor. You will comply, maybe you get a prothesis where you once had a leg. This prothesis might not fit anymore after some years, then you get a new one. And you pay and pay and pay. Meanwhile the butcher makes career, might even become a professor for butchery. That makes further butcheries more expensive, a professor gets more money than a doctor. In the end, when the butcher professor is old, he might get honest and tell you "Sorry, you could have done without cutting your leg, but I needed a certificate for my career as an advanced butcher. Thanks for your kind understanding." Edited July 23, 2015 by micmichd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) Maybe medicine should understand that it is there for health and well-being. Health is not something that can be understood in terms of monocausality. Health is rather like the weather, and it needs a high complex (cybernetic) model which takes into account environments of humans. This model is simply not there in Western medicine, but they don't admit it. That's why they are not very different from a religion. Those self-declared medical priests might even tell you that your sick when you feel well. Western religion needs people who feel bad. Feeling well is a disease for them, and a disease must be cured. Of course, cured by those pseudoscientific charlatans, because they have the monopoly. Good morning, Thailand, thank you for the sun. Good morning, sun, thank you for shining on Thailand. Edited July 24, 2015 by micmichd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 pardon me whilst i amputate your leg with 1 a GA or 2 the placebo........u choose? Can I choose which leg? Wife says "leg number 3" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Maybe medicine should understand that it is there for health and well-being. Health is not something that can be understood in terms of monocausality. Health is rather like the weather, and it needs a high complex (cybernetic) model which takes into account environments of humans. This model is simply not there in Western medicine, but they don't admit it. That's why they are not very different from a religion. Those self-declared medical priests might even tell you that your sick when you feel well. Western religion needs people who feel bad. Feeling well is a disease for them, and a disease must be cured. Of course, cured by those pseudoscientific charlatans, because they have the monopoly. Good morning, Thailand, thank you for the sun. Good morning, sun, thank you for shining on Thailand. When "alternative medicine" can sew back on a leg, fix an artery with a stent do brain surgery.................let me know..................until then (wheres the yawn icon) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fang37 Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 You guys have been debating in fine form. What interests me is the contrast in healing techniques for illnesses of the mind & resultant outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenBravo Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 When the missus and I bought some land and built a house, I let her take care of the installation of the spirit houses. A shaman came to bless it all. Firstly, there were two spirit houses next to each other. One was tall and the other one was short with a ladder going up to it. The tall one was for Buddha and the short one was for the spirit that looks after the land. After the blessing ceremony, I was told by the missus that we were very lucky because our "spirit" was a muslim with many wives. We were lucky because we didn't have to leave offerings of expensive alcohol, or fruits. I asked her when was this muslim spirit alive. She said he was never alive. I asked how he had learned the muslim faith. She said that "I don't understand". I asked, if he was a spirit, why did he need a little ladder to get up to the house? She said that "I don't understand". I asked her, if I sub-divided the land into four and sell the other three pieces and the owners put up their own spirit house, where do these extra spirits come from? She said that "I don't understand". Two years later, the beautiful wooden spirit house was looking the worse for wear after all the rain that had fallen on it. I decided that I wanted to change it for a concrete one; something that would last. Back came the shaman. After some dancing and incantations, he told us that the resident spirit was perfectly happy in his old house and didn't want to move into the new house that I had bought. In a lowered tone of voice, he said that for another 1000 Baht, he would talk the spirit into moving. The money was duly paid and obviously, the spirit was open to reason as he happily transferred to the new house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daoyai Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) Was hangin' at a riverside wat few days ago watching people purchase buckets of snails to release back into the river after a prayer sheet had been read . Made me wonder what was going through their minds while doing this, what type of 'merit' they thought they were earning and why not just leave the snails alone. When my "ex" wanted to make merit she insisted on buying fish at the market for release as these would certainly have been killed and eaten unlike the temple ones that were captured for release and so were not saved. interesting. Edited July 24, 2015 by daoyai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Maybe medicine should understand that it is there for health and well-being. Health is not something that can be understood in terms of monocausality. Health is rather like the weather, and it needs a high complex (cybernetic) model which takes into account environments of humans. This model is simply not there in Western medicine, but they don't admit it. That's why they are not very different from a religion. Those self-declared medical priests might even tell you that your sick when you feel well. Western religion needs people who feel bad. Feeling well is a disease for them, and a disease must be cured. Of course, cured by those pseudoscientific charlatans, because they have the monopoly. Good morning, Thailand, thank you for the sun. Good morning, sun, thank you for shining on Thailand. When "alternative medicine" can sew back on a leg, fix an artery with a stent do brain surgery.................let me know..................until then (wheres the yawn icon) Maybe sew hand on a leg, to get flesh for a following transplantation? They do this in a hospital for survivors of catastrophies in Germany. Alternative (my choice): Let your own body recover the burnt flesh and skin. Painful, but possible. Same hospital, recommendation from a professor in Berlin, no transplantation needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Some great posts on here. One of the biggest issues I have with Western Medicine is the way in which we have been brainwashed by the Pharmaceutical Companies into believing that Compound A is the only way to treat a particular ailment, eg Blood Pressure & High Cholesterol. Just two examples. We all seem to want an instant solution/cure to everything, when lifestyle changes are the most important factor with them. People somehow imagine that Pharma is a benevolent organistion that wants to help us, when their only motivating factor, is profit. There's alot of effort being put in, to get Statins Rxed OTC. Many of the 'arguements' for this, seem imo, to be groundless. It's difficult on a Forum to condense all ones opinions succinctly, & this often results in these opinions being picked apart too easily. Without revealing too much about myself, I have very considerable experience in working directly with Pharma, & they are not all they seem. This is interesting: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22364136 I guess what I'm attempting to put across is, don't just accept that what you're being fed by the mainstream, as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) You guys have been debating in fine form. What interests me is the contrast in healing techniques for illnesses of the mind & resultant outcomes. Not so easy. I have personally never been to a Thai doctor or healer for any mental diseases mystery, and I really doubt that even the Western diagnostic labels (ICD-10 or DSM) do really fit to phenomenons experienced. You wouldn't suffer from a winter depression in Thailand, would you? On the other hand, we know that many Farangs have sexual problems and vegetative dystonia. But vegetatative dystonia is not recognized as a disease in ICD-10 anymore, so any treatment in the West will probably be psycho drugs as usual. As for myself, I can only advice you to make sure you know what you want, believe in yourself, and accept the helping hands and the swinging bodies that Thailand is so famous for. Is there any particular mental disease you want to know about? Edited July 24, 2015 by micmichd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Some great posts on here. One of the biggest issues I have with Western Medicine is the way in which we have been brainwashed by the Pharmaceutical Companies into believing that Compound A is the only way to treat a particular ailment, eg Blood Pressure & High Cholesterol. Just two examples. We all seem to want an instant solution/cure to everything, when lifestyle changes are the most important factor with them. People somehow imagine that Pharma is a benevolent organistion that wants to help us, when their only motivating factor, is profit. There's alot of effort being put in, to get Statins Rxed OTC. Many of the 'arguements' for this, seem imo, to be groundless. It's difficult on a Forum to condense all ones opinions succinctly, & this often results in these opinions being picked apart too easily. Without revealing too much about myself, I have very considerable experience in working directly with Pharma, & they are not all they seem. This is interesting: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22364136 I guess what I'm attempting to put across is, don't just accept that what you're being fed by the mainstream, as fact. and even more so the pseudo science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Some great posts on here. One of the biggest issues I have with Western Medicine is the way in which we have been brainwashed by the Pharmaceutical Companies into believing that Compound A is the only way to treat a particular ailment, eg Blood Pressure & High Cholesterol. Just two examples. We all seem to want an instant solution/cure to everything, when lifestyle changes are the most important factor with them. People somehow imagine that Pharma is a benevolent organistion that wants to help us, when their only motivating factor, is profit. There's alot of effort being put in, to get Statins Rxed OTC. Many of the 'arguements' for this, seem imo, to be groundless. It's difficult on a Forum to condense all ones opinions succinctly, & this often results in these opinions being picked apart too easily. Without revealing too much about myself, I have very considerable experience in working directly with Pharma, & they are not all they seem. This is interesting: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22364136 I guess what I'm attempting to put across is, don't just accept that what you're being fed by the mainstream, as fact. and even more so the pseudo science You must be trolling me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) acupuncture is based on a belief in meridians that simply aren't there. Edited July 24, 2015 by cumgranosalum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 acupuncture is based on a belief in meridians that simply aren't there. Or haven't been identified physiologically yet. Just the same as was previously thought, that there was not a Brain/Immune system connection.....when in fact, there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 acupuncture is based on a belief in meridians that simply aren't there. Or haven't been identified physiologically yet. Just the same as was previously thought, that there was not a Brain/Immune system connection.....when in fact, there is. No, this is schoolboy stuff; it's based on nothing....different acupuncturists can't even agree where they are or what they do. It is a one-off concept based on no knowledge of human physiology...checked in trials (pointlessly) again and again it does nothing. Fake accupuncture is as effective as "real" accupuncture. 'based on the idea that a persons health and well being depend on the uninterrupted flow of an innate life force, a special kind of energy widely known as ch'i, through pathways (known as meridians) in the human body.based on the idea that a persons health and well being depend on the uninterrupted flow of an innate life force, a special kind of energy widely known as ch'i, through pathways (known as meridians) in the human body. "the concept of ch'i and it's pathways throughout the body are absolutely critical to the practice of acupuncture." ".....Unfortunately for proponents of acupuncture, there is no evidence for the existence of this life energy whatsoever. The very concept of ancient life force was developed in pre-scientific times. People did not understand the way the body works and they came up with the best story which they could to describe what they observed" - ".....Despite many rigorous trials and years of testing, acupuncture has not been proven to have an effect better than placebo for the ailments it is supposed to be good for" - (Goldacre) this means it has no effect....do not over estimate placebo - it is no more than a psycholocial response to pain and results only from NO REAL ACTION Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Oh dear.... I just cannot be bothered to engage myself further, attempting to make you question what you have decided is the truth. You disappoint me, I expected better. Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RasiMike Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 We any of us allow Thai superstition into our homes/lives at our own peril. It almost always enters in the mind of a partner or partner's mother and very quickly becomes the essential path via which all household and life decisions are made. The danger is not in the power of superstition to do anything, but in the power superstition hands to believers over non believers. Any expat who allows his partner of partner's mother to bring superstition into their home has in effect handed over control of his home/life. The beliefs and rules of superstition (always kept a mystery to the expat) will be used to control everything you do. Trips to the temple (pow-wows) for your superstitious partner and partner's friends/mother to decide amongst themselves if you can go on holiday, buy a new car, repaint the living room, plant something in the garden - everything you do controlled by beliefs you will conveniently never understand. Stamp it out before it crosses the threshold. If one can 'ever so lightly' stamp on 'it' with a new wife and a Thai life - I can't agree with you more. . But, foreigners who want to live in Thailand or take a Thai wife/GF may well have to accept that the belief system comes with the territory. Long ago, if we hit a crossroads, I'd give my inlaws a smile and a "kwoy baw kow jai/ farang baw son jai" which usually diffused issues of cultural misunderstandings or the suggestion of pending mysterious phenomenon. From my experience a little hug and a joke also went a long way when the going was tough and there was no more ground to be relinquished on either side. Early on, Mrs Mike and I worked around the glaringly obvious differences in 'spiritual beliefs' through discussion, understanding and acceptance. In recent years she has had the benefit of exposure to other ways of life and while her values are still ingrained, upheld and practiced ....the application of the 'old ways' is different. In fact she probably has more issues relating to her people and their 'spirituality', than I ever did. She is expected to be the same daughter and sister but a large rift has appeared and I hope it won't get any wider. Education isn't the answer to everything..... The differences can be unraveled and mutual benefit enjoyed if the soul is willing - It depends on the relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 "The interests of medicine would be best-served if we emulated the Chinese Emperor Dao Guang and issued an edict stating that acupuncture and moxibustion should no longer be used in clinical practice." referring to the 3000 or more trials conducted that show no benefits from acupuncture... "The best controlled studies show a clear pattern, with acupuncture the outcome does not depend on needle loca- tion or even needle insertion. Since these variables are those that define acupuncture, the only sensible conclusion is that acupuncture does not work. " David Colquhoun, PhD and Steven P. Novella, MD - June 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 "The interests of medicine would be best-served if we emulated the Chinese Emperor Dao Guang and issued an edict stating that acupuncture and moxibustion should no longer be used in clinical practice." referring to the 3000 or more trials conducted that show no benefits from acupuncture... "The best controlled studies show a clear pattern, with acupuncture the outcome does not depend on needle loca- tion or even needle insertion. Since these variables are those that define acupuncture, the only sensible conclusion is that acupuncture does not work. " David Colquhoun, PhD and Steven P. Novella, MD - June 2013. Guess you never got tickled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 "The interests of medicine would be best-served if we emulated the Chinese Emperor Dao Guang and issued an edict stating that acupuncture and moxibustion should no longer be used in clinical practice." referring to the 3000 or more trials conducted that show no benefits from acupuncture... "The best controlled studies show a clear pattern, with acupuncture the outcome does not depend on needle loca- tion or even needle insertion. Since these variables are those that define acupuncture, the only sensible conclusion is that acupuncture does not work. " David Colquhoun, PhD and Steven P. Novella, MD - June 2013. Guess you never got tickled. And what foolish idea are you clinging on to there? You seem to have no concept of what skeoticality is and how critical/scientific thought operates. It has been explained quite clearly in posts above... Read them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 acupuncture is based on a belief in meridians that simply aren't there. Or haven't been identified physiologically yet. Just the same as was previously thought, that there was not a Brain/Immune system connection.....when in fact, there is. It also hasnt been identified that a peanut in the middle of Jupiter is controlling our every move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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