troy Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I think it would be unscientific to discard all superstitions, medicines and poultices just out-of-hand. Exactly. Just as it would be unscientific to accept them without evidence obtained through controlled, and peer reviewed studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 there must be something in this witchcraft people have been practising it for over 300 years and are still doing so it is prevalent in the usa and in the uk and south Africa Thailand is no different from these countries . You're right its called "stupidity" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Then there's something wrong with medical science. Maybe too much medical research is sponsored by pharma industry. Where are the (longitudinal) studies on those who explicitly refused a suggested medical treatment? Never seen any. My Dad refused chemotherapy, they said he'd last a year. if he had it............... they were wrong.............he confounded them all by living just............... 3 months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulic Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Western religions, superstition, witchcraft, all the same to me. Edited July 23, 2015 by luckizuchinni removed bolded font Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 there must be something in this witchcraft people have been practising it for over 300 years and are still doing so it is prevalent in the usa and in the uk and south Africa Thailand is no different from these countries . You're right its called "stupidity" Still every year on April 30 (on "Walpurgis night") German women celebrate the flight of witches. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Then there's something wrong with medical science. Maybe too much medical research is sponsored by pharma industry. Where are the (longitudinal) studies on those who explicitly refused a suggested medical treatment? Never seen any. My Dad refused chemotherapy, they said he'd last a year. if he had it............... they were wrong.............he confounded them all by living just............... 3 months Sorry for your father. In case of cancer, I would probably rely on chemotherapy because cancer tends to be growing if not treated. But before making a decision about a medical treatment, I would always get a second opinion - from someone outside the institution, with no personal interest in my case. Unfortunately many doctors are forced to make a certain amount of certain surgical operations, otherwise their contracts would not be extended and their career might be over. So these doctors will always be biased. In my cases, I had a professor from another university hospital who was already top, and a private doctor who was experienced in the side effects of surgical therapy. And I did not face the risk in making a decision right now (like with cancer), those suggested operations could have been made later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedude82 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 obviously this is a third world mentality tribal hocus pocus bullshit...actually its pretty laughable to hear about a witchdoctor in 2015...talk about a backwards "culture" there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callaway Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Personally, as with "The invisible friend for adults" (God), its not what is credible or not, but purely what you choose to "Believe". Never hear the "Invisible friend for adults" but I love it. Hope you dont mind but I will have to use it on a couple of god botherer friends. Classic comment as Richie Benaud would say Edited July 23, 2015 by luckizuchinni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RasiMike Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The version of 'black magic' I've observed in my Thailand life, once boiled down, is not so different to the, 'down on your knees, talk to an entity' beliefs held by my grandparents. Just like most TV members, I've known friends, associates and strangers from various backgrounds that believe in organised religion and superstition - I don't think it is limited to Thai people. I'm happy to let my Thai inlaws and neighbours believe anything they like, to them I'm a farang and "don't know about these things" so I sit back and enjoy learning while watching their antics. It's a harmless part of the culture and most the time you can get a giggle out of it. In regards to the notion of 'luck' in Thailand, I stated a long time ago to my wife and Thai family that "bad luck usually comes just after doing something stupid"....they still quote me more than a decade later. In the early days I witnessed some interesting things that opened my eyes and gave me a little laugh. - I once caught my sister in law pouring a shot glass of Lao Khao down a toad's throat. She explained, in a matter of fact way, that the lottery numbers would show up in a pattern on the belly. On that occasion she didn't pick the right digits - but my mother in law DID and was happy to rub my nose in it when she came home with a pile of cash! - During a discussion years ago with a large group of about 20 people - all reported to have seen ghosts and balls of light travelling around the village at various times. I was a little shocked as this was early in my exposure to the whole village scene, but it struck me that the story had parallels with things I'd been told by indigenous friends I'd gone to school with. - When my niece was a baby, she suffered from a lot of wind after she was breast fed by her mother. Given her mum's main meal was always papaya, plaa rak and mountains of naam prik it was hardly surprising that her baby had constant stomach troubles. I watched them for weeks trying head blowing, various trinkets and prayers and visits by the old dude with the 'touch' but nothing would make her settle, so I asked if I could try. Each time after she fed I would pick her up, pat her back until she belched and pump her legs until she farted..... most the time she settled down well and Mike was the new witch doctor after that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 obviously this is a third world mentality tribal hocus pocus bullshit...actually its pretty laughable to hear about a witchdoctor in 2015...talk about a backwards "culture" there Just as third world to believe in make believe creators with no evidence, but of course once you start to show them how stupid it is it then becomes " offensive" A virgin birth for example, stupidity itself, yet question this in some parts of America and youll probably get run out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I think it would be unscientific to discard all superstitions, medicines and poultices just out-of-hand. Exactly. Just as it would be unscientific to accept them without evidence obtained through controlled, and peer reviewed studies. Guess you mean experimental studies in a controlled field that can be replicated. Cultural anthropology of religion normally starts with narratives, followed by participant observation. Not so easy (and ethically doubtful) to isolate an observed phenomenon from a given culture. People will hate you if you strip them from their religious beliefs, they might even kill you. Maybe it's possible to study religious beliefs (in the broadest definition) and their impact on human behaviour in small groups. Stanley Milgram's "Obedience to authority" is a good example, Leon Festinger's et al. "When prophecy fails" another one. You have to be absolutely cynical and emotionless for studies like this. It really hurts people when you treat them like rats in an experimental field, the harsh reactions to the Milgram experiment are evidence for that. Anyway, folks in my former home town behaved like rats and treated me like a rat, so I felt free to do the same with them and made my experiments on them. Participant observation, extended to social media. Method: cynical provocation, imho the only way to study the dynamic effects of common myths. Certainly not so easy to find someone for review, especially when it comes to sexual taboos and the myth of the old Farang who gets ripped off by the greedy Thai bar girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 We any of us allow Thai superstition into our homes/lives at our own peril. It almost always enters in the mind of a partner or partner's mother and very quickly becomes the essential path via which all household and life decisions are made. The danger is not in the power of superstition to do anything, but in the power superstition hands to believers over non believers. Any expat who allows his partner of partner's mother to bring superstition into their home has in effect handed over control of his home/life. The beliefs and rules of superstition (always kept a mystery to the expat) will be used to control everything you do. Trips to the temple (pow-wows) for your superstitious partner and partner's friends/mother to decide amongst themselves if you can go on holiday, buy a new car, repaint the living room, plant something in the garden - everything you do controlled by beliefs you will conveniently never understand. Stamp it out before it crosses the threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) We any of us allow Thai superstition into our homes/lives at our own perilous. It almost always enters in the mind of a partner or partner's mother and very quickly becomes the essential path via which all household and life decisions are made. The danger is not in the power of superstition to do anything, but in the power superstition hands to believers over non believers. Any expat who allows his partner of partner's mother to bring superstition into their home has in effect handed over control of his home/life. The beliefs and rules of superstition (always kept a mystery to the expat) will be used to control everything you do. Trips to the temple (pow-wows) for your superstitious partner and partner's friends/mother to decide amongst themselves if you can go on holiday, buy a new car, repaint the living room, plant something in the garden - everything you do controlled by beliefs you will conveniently never understand. Stamp it out before it crosses the threshold. Do you understand that your belief in economic stability (eg when you buy a car on instalments) is superstitious belief in a myth, too? Edited July 22, 2015 by micmichd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sipi Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 The only strange (to me at the time) form of superstition was when the bil and wife dropped their bike on a corrigated dirt road and suffered minor injuries. We later went back to the site with a net to catch the bad spirit and put it in the fire. Frankly I thought it was harmless and joined in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asheron Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 There is a very good reason to why there is a distinction between "modern/western medicine" and "everything else". People can believe what they want but believing things like "avoiding certain people" will do you any good or bad is just plain ignorant. And i use ignorant lightly as stronger words aren't allowed on this forum. See, that's what I was talking about. Just because you have a pretty good idea that something is likely to be true, and that it's counterintuitive to think otherwise....in FACT there is no proof that avoiding certain people is useful OR useless. Yes, and there's no proof that unicorns don't exist either... We have a pretty good idea at this point about how the body works and how 'everyday physics' works, and there's nothing in that extensive knowledgebase that would explain how avoiding certain people would help with healing (unless, of course they are infectious). That's not how science works, if you can't prove something then it is highly unlikely that "something" exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Science deals with testing and proof. It's perception of the world around us changes constantly as we test and probe the world/universe around us. Superstition on the other hand doesn't change it is based on no critical thought or skepticism burt on blind faith and a characteristic is that as it doesn't rely on evidence, it seldom changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Science is the New Religion........... Go back 300 years & show a Physician an MRI....he would say it's Witchcraft. 40 years ago, Acupuncture was thought in the West that for it to work, you needed to somehow believe in it. Same with Reflexology 20 years ago...... And don't many people 'Wish On A Star'....& many other things like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonjake Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Well ive just watched another program with a load of Americans running round a wood looking for big foot and still no photos, but there still running round looking, maybe next week they will see one, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Science is the New Religion........... Go back 300 years & show a Physician an MRI....he would say it's Witchcraft. 40 years ago, Acupuncture was thought in the West that for it to work, you needed to somehow believe in it. Same with Reflexology 20 years ago...... And don't many people 'Wish On A Star'....& many other things like that? Acunpuncture is nonsense also http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/26/acupuncture-sceptics-proof-effective-nhs Also reflexology is crap too http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/reflex.html Now 300 years ago if you could show the physician all the information leading up to the MRI scanner and how we got there ( not by witchcraft) Im sure he'd understand, of course you could tell him a load of mumbo jumbo is how it works also. Science isnt a religion, religion is nonsensical crap based on NOTHING science isnt based on nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Well ive just watched another program with a load of Americans running round a wood looking for big foot and still no photos, but there still running round looking, maybe next week they will see one, They need its bigfoot up their r's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Looking West: What is the New (unquestionable) Religion there? Science, Money, Humanity? Edited July 22, 2015 by micmichd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Science is the New Religion........... Go back 300 years & show a Physician an MRI....he would say it's Witchcraft. 40 years ago, Acupuncture was thought in the West that for it to work, you needed to somehow believe in it. Same with Reflexology 20 years ago...... And don't many people 'Wish On A Star'....& many other things like that? Acunpuncture is nonsense also http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/26/acupuncture-sceptics-proof-effective-nhs Also reflexology is crap too http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/reflex.html Now 300 years ago if you could show the physician all the information leading up to the MRI scanner and how we got there ( not by witchcraft) Im sure he'd understand, of course you could tell him a load of mumbo jumbo is how it works also. Science isnt a religion, religion is nonsensical crap based on NOTHING science isnt based on nothing What is science based on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkshire Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 How about praying? Is that a western form of superstition/witchcraft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 "Acupuncture is nonsense"......... A few years ago, other dimensions were also scoffed at.......unless of course Cern's got it all wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troy Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Science is the New Religion........... Go back 300 years & show a Physician an MRI....he would say it's Witchcraft. 40 years ago, Acupuncture was thought in the West that for it to work, you needed to somehow believe in it. Same with Reflexology 20 years ago...... And don't many people 'Wish On A Star'....& many other things like that? Science requires no faith, it relies on evidence obtained through controlled testing. It couldn't be further from religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 When I posted "Science is the Religion" it was a wry comment. You seen the Ted Talk about that??? Thought you might possibly have understood that, with your highly deductive minds. (a gentle teasing comment) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Science is the New Religion........... Go back 300 years & show a Physician an MRI....he would say it's Witchcraft. 40 years ago, Acupuncture was thought in the West that for it to work, you needed to somehow believe in it. Same with Reflexology 20 years ago...... And don't many people 'Wish On A Star'....& many other things like that? That is absolute nonsense - religion is the antithesis of science - science believes nothing religion relies entirely on faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) "Acupuncture is nonsense"......... A few years ago, other dimensions were also scoffed at.......unless of course Cern's got it all wrong. YOU were talking about acupuncture now you want to change the subject, keep moving those goal posts "What David and I have convincingly argued, in my opinion, is that after decades of research and more than 3000 trials, acupuncture researchers have failed to reject the null hypothesis, and any remaining possible specific effect from acupuncture is so tiny as to be clinically insignificant. In layman’s terms, acupuncture does not work – for anything. This has profound clinical, ethical, scientific, and practical implications. In my opinion humanity should not waste another penny, another moment, another patient – any further resources on this dead end. We should consider this a lesson learned, cut our losses, and move on. I suspect, however, human nature being what it is, that this will not happen anytime soon." Edited July 22, 2015 by kannot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Do you understand that your belief in economic stability (eg when you buy a car on instalments) is superstitious belief in a myth, too? What's all this nonsense about buying stuff on 'installments'? I don't buy anything 'on installments'... or mortgage. As for financial stability being myth ... Thank god it is. I've made far mire money out of financial instability than I have from financial stability, or indeed working. The mid 90s economic crash in Thailand - Ker-ching The bankng crisis - Ker-ching Expat fire sales following the post banking crisis recession - Ker-ching The current depreciation in the Euro - Ker-ching Its the proffits I've made from economic instability that finance my freedom from buying stuff on installments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Nope, haven't moved any goal posts, I was just making another point. Is that ok with you? Just a quick search on Pub Med, brings up this. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24595780 It's not a particulary good example, but it highlights that there are opposing facts to your dogmatic approach. We could go at 'it' all day.....but there's no real need, is there? Unless of course, you need to be right all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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