Decisions, decisions.. Golf GTi or Golf R

[WarpSpeed]

^^Right Frank but when I said VW I didn't single out VW, VW is a group with VW as the head/owner of that group and that's why I stated it as VW instead of breaking down the entire VW group in order, Audi, Porsche, Bently, etc. because that surely would have been a can of worms.

I just don't appreciate being corrected so certainly when my stated facts are in actuality correct, "sorry this isn't true" turns out it is, that's what made it an issue. It wasn't that trivial of a correction from my point of view and here being factual gains respect and credibility, someone making you look foolish does not, so I had to respond accordingly. Now the point is moot at this point since it seems you've made a partial retraction.

Nice "rattrapage aux branches" as we say back home.

Everybody understood that you wrote a Bmw or Mercedes driver would give way to a Volkswagen out of respect of the brand history, which seemed completely ridiculous. Now that a german pointed out your mistake, "of course" you were talking about Porsches and Audis... on a Golf topic, following a few posts that said VWs were not hiso enough for thais.

By the way VW bought Audi and Porsche well after WWII, both brands had not much to do with Germany's reconstruction which renders the original reason invalid for them.

Don't speak for EVERYBODY including me, don't presume to put words or other meanings in my posts either, I said VW as in VW group, Porsche, Audi, whatever, not my fault the both of you are NOT English speakers as your first language based on the quality of your post, but admit YOUR misunderstanding of the language and move on and don't try to twist my post from it's intended meaning as it was intended all the time.

FYI it matters NOT which brand it is if it is overtaking you on the autobahn, YOU MOVE OVER or you get a hefty fine!! Now argue that point? There are and have been plenty of VW products in German trim that are every bit as top end as most other German brands, we were passed by a Ford Focus station wagon like we were anchored at over 140MPH not KPH either.

May I than humbly request as a non-perfect English speaker that you express yourself in international way and if you mean VW and their products you actually mean VW group (as this is by no means clear which I have stated previously in my handicapped English)? Same as if you would say FIAT but actually meant some of their many different brands. You said VW...You DID NOT say VW group, why is it so hard to accept this? It's not about language it is about being precise in expressing it.

Anyway, won't comment on this anymore....Whatever.

Oh, so you men dumb down my English? No thanks, I won't do that, I tried to explain already and the point is still in contention. One persons opinion does not belie the numerous ones I got from credible people before going there including from my good friend Hans Stuck who happens to be a VW works driver thank you very much, in previous years he was also a BMW works driver after a previous stint with Audi/VW I'll take his word over anyone here on an anonymous forum..

[WarpSpeed]

^^Right Frank but when I said VW I didn't single out VW, VW is a group with VW as the head/owner of that group and that's why I stated it as VW instead of breaking down the entire VW group in order, Audi, Porsche, Bently, etc. because that surely would have been a can of worms.

I just don't appreciate being corrected so certainly when my stated facts are in actuality correct, "sorry this isn't true" turns out it is, that's what made it an issue. It wasn't that trivial of a correction from my point of view and here being factual gains respect and credibility, someone making you look foolish does not, so I had to respond accordingly. Now the point is moot at this point since it seems you've made a partial retraction.

Nice "rattrapage aux branches" as we say back home.

Everybody understood that you wrote a Bmw or Mercedes driver would give way to a Volkswagen out of respect of the brand history, which seemed completely ridiculous. Now that a german pointed out your mistake, "of course" you were talking about Porsches and Audis... on a Golf topic, following a few posts that said VWs were not hiso enough for thais.

By the way VW bought Audi and Porsche well after WWII, both brands had not much to do with Germany's reconstruction which renders the original reason invalid for them.

Don't speak for EVERYBODY including me, don't presume to put words or other meanings in my posts either, I said VW as in VW group, Porsche, Audi, whatever, not my fault the both of you are NOT English speakers as your first language based on the quality of your post, but admit YOUR misunderstanding of the language and move on and don't try to twist my post from it's intended meaning as it was intended all the time.

FYI it matters NOT which brand it is if it is overtaking you on the autobahn, YOU MOVE OVER or you get a hefty fine!! Now argue that point? There are and have been plenty of VW products in German trim that are every bit as top end as most other German brands, we were passed by a Ford Focus station wagon like we were anchored at over 140MPH not KPH either.

You wrote "In Germany there is an unwritten rule regarding right of way on the Autobahn, and VW and their products are at the top of that pyramid over both BMW and Mercedes" in the middle of a debate on the VW brand reputation among expats and Thais.

Sorry but even though english is my second language I fail to see how anybody except you would have included in "VW and their products" Audis and Porsches considering the context of the discussion.

Even including Audis and Porsches, your comment doesn't make sense because Seat, Skoda and cheap VWs like Golfs and Polos are also in the VW group. Hard to imagine a Polo or a Seat Cordoba being on top of the pyramid over a class S.

So it seems we should have understood in "VW and their products" Porsches, Audis, Bentleys but not Skodas, Seats, and most Volkswagens. But Porsche, Audi and Bentley were not part of VW when it rebuilt Germany after the war and gained a lot of respect, so it still doesn't make sense. I guess that must be my misunderstanding of the language.

But wait, it's not over! Actually, it doesn't matter which brand it is. Okay, but what were you talking exactly about this unwritten rule on the Autobahn and that pyramid in the first place?

Again don't tell me what I wrote, instead try doing a proper translation of what I wrote.

[WarpSpeed]

Geez IMHO you're on a roll! It's refreshing to see such frank honesty. For anyone who cares to know? In Germany there is an unwritten rule regarding right of way on the Autobahn, and VW and their products are at the top of that pyramid over both BMW and Mercedes, in their minds VW both built and after WWII, rebuilt Germany.

Sorry, but this isn't true, I am German and I would say Benz, BMW, Audi and than VW...although VW is catching up more and more and closing the gap.

I guess I should believe you over the multitude of Germans I spoke with both before and during my trip there then? Especially given that VW dwarfs the other manufacturers mentioned and it is supposedly ranked according to company sales, last I checked Audi was part of the VW group.

You should believe him because he is correct. Benz and BMW are at the top of the pack.

From a frequent former autobahn user.

No he's not, VW has always been at the pinnacle and still is unquestionably.. VW has been the primary manufacturer since WWII.

[fish fingers]

I would say the new VW Golf is a very good car, quality materials (better than A class) and brilliantly designed

Lets look at badge snobbery for a sec. What does driving a VW/Merc/BMW say about you?

BMW .. Not as popular as Merc in Thailand - so I'm really not sure what the brand says. Affluent but not too showy I guess.

Mercedes .. THE car for the aspiring set, in Thailand at least. Or any white-face female with a rich dad. If male, usually obnoxious, self righteous and snobby. Drive like lunatics and have zero road manners. Desperate need to feel better than others.

Personally I prefer the image of a VW badge. No pretension, or having to try too hard, probably because the driver is either very successful or from a very good family and has nothing to prove. Reliable, likeable, like the owner.

[pistachios]

You wrote "In Germany there is an unwritten rule regarding right of way on the Autobahn, and VW and their products are at the top of that pyramid over both BMW and Mercedes" in the middle of a debate on the VW brand reputation among expats and Thais.

Sorry but even though english is my second language I fail to see how anybody except you would have included in "VW and their products" Audis and Porsches considering the context of the discussion.

Even including Audis and Porsches, your comment doesn't make sense because Seat, Skoda and cheap VWs like Golfs and Polos are also in the VW group. Hard to imagine a Polo or a Seat Cordoba being on top of the pyramid over a class S.

So it seems we should have understood in "VW and their products" Porsches, Audis, Bentleys but not Skodas, Seats, and most Volkswagens. But Porsche, Audi and Bentley were not part of VW when it rebuilt Germany after the war and gained a lot of respect, so it still doesn't make sense. I guess that must be my misunderstanding of the language.

But wait, it's not over! Actually, it doesn't matter which brand it is. Okay, but what were you talking exactly about this unwritten rule on the Autobahn and that pyramid in the first place?

Again don't tell me what I wrote, instead try doing a proper translation of what I wrote.

Unfortunately for you, I quoted you verbatim.

[Fab5BKK]

???

Volkswagen = car for the people = hardly "top of the range", especially @ WWII

Background: The Volkswagen was a centerpiece of Nazism’s claims to benefit ordinary Germans. Hitler proposed to build a cheap car that almost anyone could afford. He gave it the name “KdF Wagen,” which we know as the Volkswagen. KdF was the abbreviation for “Kraft durch Freude" (Strength through Joy), a subsidiary of the Deutsche Arbeitsfront (German Labor Front), headed by Robert Ley. This chapter on the beginnings of the Volkswagen is taken from a book celebrating the achievements of “Kraft durch Freude.” As it turned out, not many people got their cars until after the war. As the chapter notes, the first deliveries were planned for early 1940, at which point the factory had been turned over to war production.

I've included six of the ten illustrations in the chapter. The missing pictures show scenes of factory construction and happy Italian workers.

The source: Unter dem Sonnenrad: Ein Buch von Kraft durch Freude (Berlin: Verlag der Deutschen Arbeitsfront, 1938), pp. 177-189.

http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/vw.htm

I guess I should believe you over the multitude of Germans I spoke with both before and during my trip there then? Especially given that VW dwarfs the other manufacturers mentioned and it is supposedly ranked according to company sales, last I checked Audi was part of the VW group.

You should believe him because he is correct. Benz and BMW are at the top of the pack.
From a frequent former autobahn user.

No he's not, VW has always been at the pinnacle and still is unquestionably.. VW has been the primary manufacturer since WWII.

[WarpSpeed]

You wrote "In Germany there is an unwritten rule regarding right of way on the Autobahn, and VW and their products are at the top of that pyramid over both BMW and Mercedes" in the middle of a debate on the VW brand reputation among expats and Thais.

Sorry but even though english is my second language I fail to see how anybody except you would have included in "VW and their products" Audis and Porsches considering the context of the discussion.

Even including Audis and Porsches, your comment doesn't make sense because Seat, Skoda and cheap VWs like Golfs and Polos are also in the VW group. Hard to imagine a Polo or a Seat Cordoba being on top of the pyramid over a class S.

So it seems we should have understood in "VW and their products" Porsches, Audis, Bentleys but not Skodas, Seats, and most Volkswagens. But Porsche, Audi and Bentley were not part of VW when it rebuilt Germany after the war and gained a lot of respect, so it still doesn't make sense. I guess that must be my misunderstanding of the language.

But wait, it's not over! Actually, it doesn't matter which brand it is. Okay, but what were you talking exactly about this unwritten rule on the Autobahn and that pyramid in the first place?

Again don't tell me what I wrote, instead try doing a proper translation of what I wrote.

Unfortunately for you, I quoted you verbatim.

Unfortunate indeed, but not for me, for you, as it is written text, and is taken out of context which does not consider intent..

[WarpSpeed]

???

Volkswagen = car for the people = hardly "top of the range", especially @ WWII

Background: The Volkswagen was a centerpiece of Nazism’s claims to benefit ordinary Germans. Hitler proposed to build a cheap car that almost anyone could afford. He gave it the name “KdF Wagen,” which we know as the Volkswagen. KdF was the abbreviation for “Kraft durch Freude" (Strength through Joy), a subsidiary of the Deutsche Arbeitsfront (German Labor Front), headed by Robert Ley. This chapter on the beginnings of the Volkswagen is taken from a book celebrating the achievements of “Kraft durch Freude.” As it turned out, not many people got their cars until after the war. As the chapter notes, the first deliveries were planned for early 1940, at which point the factory had been turned over to war production.

I've included six of the ten illustrations in the chapter. The missing pictures show scenes of factory construction and happy Italian workers.

The source: Unter dem Sonnenrad: Ein Buch von Kraft durch Freude (Berlin: Verlag der Deutschen Arbeitsfront, 1938), pp. 177-189.

http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/vw.htm

guess I should believe you over the multitude of Germans I spoke with both before and during my trip there then? Especially given that VW dwarfs the other manufacturers mentioned and it is supposedly ranked according to company sales, last I checked Audi was part of the VW group.

You should believe him because he is correct. Benz and BMW are at the top of the pack.

From a frequent former autobahn user.

No he's not, VW has always been at the pinnacle and still is unquestionably.. VW has been the primary manufacturer since WWII.

Have no idea what this nonsense is? Isn't even quoted correctly or in proper context so the content is moot, further proof of the lack of understanding being applied.

[frankphuket]

Not too hard to understand actually if you would know something about Germany or German car makers or history. From after the war till just about 20 years ago or so VW was in fact the car for the people (see VW Beetle or regular Golf) and was on the same level/tier as Ford Germany and Opel Germany. It was low to mid class and mainly had no top range models. This has changed after the purchase of Audi a good while back and they aimed to become more middle and even upper class. (VW Phaeton springs to mind as their attempt to challenge Benz and BMW....failed project though). The Porsche purchase is still quite recent.

Wonder what a Porsche or Bentley driver would say if you ask him/her how is his VW group car? Each brand still has quite a bit of individualism in them and of course it is in VW Group interest to keep it this way. So, in the future when we talk brands, can we just call the individual brand....not VW group not Fiat group, nor Chrysler group, Ford Group etc....because then we don't really have any clue what we are all talking about anymore.

[stevenl]

Not too hard to understand actually if you would know something about Germany or German car makers or history. From after the war till just about 20 years ago or so VW was in fact the car for the people (see VW Beetle or regular Golf) and was on the same level/tier as Ford Germany and Opel Germany. It was low to mid class and mainly had no top range models. This has changed after the purchase of Audi a good while back and they aimed to become more middle and even upper class. (VW Phaeton springs to mind as their attempt to challenge Benz and BMW....failed project though). The Porsche purchase is still quite recent.

Wonder what a Porsche or Bentley driver would say if you ask him/her how is his VW group car? Each brand still has quite a bit of individualism in them and of course it is in VW Group interest to keep it this way. So, in the future when we talk brands, can we just call the individual brand....not VW group not Fiat group, nor Chrysler group, Ford Group etc....because then we don't really have any clue what we are all talking about anymore.

Good analysis, although I would say VW was already trying to change its image by increasing quality. Acquisition of Audi was part of that process, not the start. But that may be nitpicking.

[frankphuket]

Not too hard to understand actually if you would know something about Germany or German car makers or history. From after the war till just about 20 years ago or so VW was in fact the car for the people (see VW Beetle or regular Golf) and was on the same level/tier as Ford Germany and Opel Germany. It was low to mid class and mainly had no top range models. This has changed after the purchase of Audi a good while back and they aimed to become more middle and even upper class. (VW Phaeton springs to mind as their attempt to challenge Benz and BMW....failed project though). The Porsche purchase is still quite recent.

Wonder what a Porsche or Bentley driver would say if you ask him/her how is his VW group car? Each brand still has quite a bit of individualism in them and of course it is in VW Group interest to keep it this way. So, in the future when we talk brands, can we just call the individual brand....not VW group not Fiat group, nor Chrysler group, Ford Group etc....because then we don't really have any clue what we are all talking about anymore.

Good analysis, although I would say VW was already trying to change its image by increasing quality. Acquisition of Audi was part of that process, not the start. But that may be nitpicking.

You are probably right that they were already on the way to trying to change their image, but even in the 70s and early 80s they were only on par with Ford, Opel...for example their Golf was the direct competitor to the Focus and Astra and all had quite similar image perception, maybe the Golf ever so slightly above the others. Till today this rivalry is still on: Golf vs Focus....Astra a bit behind. The Passat is fighting it out with the Ford Mondeo. I would say VW with those cars have lifted themselves above their rivals. For me one of the most interesting brands of VW group is Skoda, with a number of real nice products, which in my opinion don't have to hide in front of their VW counterparts. The Octavia, Superb, Yeti are all well perceived cars.....

One thing however I think we can all agree: Shame on VW not having established themselves in Thailand!

Give me Tiguan or a Yeti over a Honda CR-V any day of the week...

[mortenaa]

Master suppression techniques.

Its a well known technique many people use in debates. When they are wrong, or run out of arguments, they start to attach or rediciouly the opponent, eg. "u are not a native English speaker". "I am right, you are stupid" etc..

[frankphuket]

Master suppression techniques.

Its a well known technique many people use in debates. When they are wrong, or run out of arguments, they start to attach or rediciouly the opponent, eg. "u are not a native English speaker". "I am right, you are stupid" etc..

Thanks....good to know!

Not trying to be a pain or even trying to win an argument.... I have my kids for this matter...hehe. Just not care for people who make half true statements and defend them as the one and only truth, bend what they said instead of just saying...yep, maybe I wasn't that clear and actually mean....blablabla.

Well...well...back to the Golfs....mine is ready to go to the garage again with ABS/EPS sensor problem and it just arrived from the US within 4 days. It seems it dislikes half flooded roads here in Phuket....thought we have quite a bit of rain in Germany and it should be ok.

[jmccarty]

Geez IMHO you're on a roll! It's refreshing to see such frank honesty. For anyone who cares to know? In Germany there is an unwritten rule regarding right of way on the Autobahn, and VW and their products are at the top of that pyramid over both BMW and Mercedes, in their minds VW both built and after WWII, rebuilt Germany.

Sorry, but this isn't true, I am German and I would say Benz, BMW, Audi and than VW...although VW is catching up more and more and closing the gap.

I guess I should believe you over the multitude of Germans I spoke with both before and during my trip there then? Especially given that VW dwarfs the other manufacturers mentioned and it is supposedly ranked according to company sales, last I checked Audi was part of the VW group.

Not quite sure I understand you right, but when you say "right on way" I was interpreting that in my poor German English as the cars which drive fast on the left lane and others giving way....?

If this is so, my answer stands and trust me I have done km on the good German highways.

Actually Porsche would come first, than Benz, BMW/Audi and VW.... Even Audi is part of VW (so is Porsche) but as a car brand should be seen separately.

In terms of quantity...of course there are more VW cars on the road, but until only recently they were more mid segment and did not have really that powerful cars out there, the more powerful engines are found in Audis and Porsches of course.

Anyhow...who cares, right?

Bugatti from Volkswagen would technically be first I think, but now I am being pedantic! And way off topic! Apologize! Take the R.

[WarpSpeed]

Master suppression techniques.

Its a well known technique many people use in debates. When they are wrong, or run out of arguments, they start to attach or rediciouly the opponent, eg. "u are not a native English speaker". "I am right, you are stupid" etc..

Actually another simpleton posts, I just went along with the prevailing apologies and made no such mention prior. It is certainly reasonable that they misunderstood due to English not being their first language but then you knew that already didn't you? On second impression based on your post as well, I guess not..