Definition; Alcoholic

[ding]

A man, or woman, sitting in an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting...

wonder if they're alcoholic or not.

[sabaijai]

And your point, Ding? Worth a whole new thread is it?

[ding]

I'm sorry. I'll back off. I just thought that there are so many hilarious sayings in AA that we could have a unique opportunity to see a world wide sampling of funnies.

ding out!

[ding]

And your point, Ding? Worth a whole new thread is it?

4 days, 1 post

Glad you're on flood control!

[rodeoooo]

OK,ok

so i dont post here much ( cant remember if i have before or not )

however i DO know about alcholism

i have been "sober" for 12 years thru AA

definition of sober= i dont drink or use drugs, have god in my life and try at all times to be a gentleman

def of alkie= a person who no longer can control or enjoy his drinking

and

if when you drink, you cannot predict how much you will drink or what will happen

you can could it up w/ all the many definitons and means of recovery but the facts are this:

there are three types of alkies

1) problem drinker

2) heavy drink

3)real alcoholic

type 1 and 2 there problem IS alcohol

they stop drinking and the problems disapate

type 3, his/her problem IS NOT alcohol

alcohol is a symptom of a 3 part disease

mental, physical and spiratual

this person has a physical allergy to the drug ethyl alcohol

this allergy once triggered requires more into the system

this would be no problem if he did not drink

however the type 3 alkie is driven my a mental obsession to drink

this mental obsession is caused by a spiratual malidy

RARELY in all the world wide BS re: treatment do people discuss this

i could go on and on, but i am on my way to a meeting

fyi

you dont "have" to go to meetings the rest of your life

as a type 3 "recovered" alcoholic i "want" to go because part of my staying sober

is i "get" to help new guys become "recovered"

fyi 2

i live in southern california and have seen myself hundreds of guys that came in, didnt buy into AA

try some other treatment (there are heaps) and come back to AA because nothing worked for them IF they are type 3 alkies...................

[Neeranam]

OK,ok

so i dont post here much ( cant remember if i have before or not )

however i DO know about alcholism

i have been "sober" for 12 years thru AA

definition of sober= i dont drink or use drugs, have god in my life and try at all times to be a gentleman

def of alkie= a person who no longer can control or enjoy his drinking

and

if when you drink, you cannot predict how much you will drink or what will happen

you can could it up w/ all the many definitons and means of recovery but the facts are this:

there are three types of alkies

1) problem drinker

2) heavy drink

3)real alcoholic

type 1 and 2 there problem IS alcohol

they stop drinking and the problems disapate

type 3, his/her problem IS NOT alcohol

alcohol is a symptom of a 3 part disease

mental, physical and spiratual

this person has a physical allergy to the drug ethyl alcohol

this allergy once triggered requires more into the system

this would be no problem if he did not drink

however the type 3 alkie is driven my a mental obsession to drink

this mental obsession is caused by a spiratual malidy

RARELY in all the world wide BS re: treatment do people discuss this

i could go on and on, but i am on my way to a meeting

fyi

you dont "have" to go to meetings the rest of your life

as a type 3 "recovered" alcoholic i "want" to go because part of my staying sober

is i "get" to help new guys become "recovered"

fyi 2

i live in southern california and have seen myself hundreds of guys that came in, didnt buy into AA

try some other treatment (there are heaps) and come back to AA because nothing worked for them IF they are type 3 alkies...................

I agree with all of that. There are some on this forum, who are neither doctors or alcoholics, intent on making AA sound like it's not successful, which of course it is. I can only hazzard a guess that it's because they are practising Buddhists who have a big problem not accepting that it is all down to their own will-power.

[h5n1]

i went to aa with a friend years ago - hated it. hat ethe premise that you have succumbed to alcohol and it has defeated you. also hate the higher power thing -also irrelevant.

i drink a lot but it is controlled, throughly. i also smoke when i drink and can give that up as well.

most alcoholism is habit and lack of will to give up booze which after some time the body does want/need.

the thing i like about aa is that if you fall off the wagon - no big deal, just another day. tomorrow you try again - if more smokers had this notion there would be many more quitting. but i also dont like all the smokers at the meetings - like they traded one killer for another - but as one guy told me -smokes dont kill others. well said.

up to you

Edited November 23, 2006 by h5n1

[Bisto]

fyi

you dont "have" to go to meetings the rest of your life

as a type 3 "recovered" alcoholic i "want" to go because part of my staying sober

is i "get" to help new guys become "recovered"

many meetings many chances no meetings no chance.

[baennaenae]

My granddad was an alcoholic I remember when he wanted me to get him the Thai whiskey from the shop, he told me to keep the bottle under my shirts so his wife couldn't see it Often times when she wasn't near us !

[robitusson]

There are some on this forum, who are neither doctors or alcoholics, intent on making AA sound like it's not successful, which of course it is.

It is successful! For 5% of memebers.

I can only hazzard a guess that it's because they are practising Buddhists who have a big problem not accepting that it is all down to their own will-power.

That's the difference, some guess, others look at facts.

[robitusson]

you can could it up w/ all the many definitons and means of recovery but the facts are this:

there are three types of alkies

1) problem drinker

2) heavy drink

3)real alcoholic

Interesting.

And your source for these facts?

[jumnien]

Obese, diabetic, alcoholic - there are so many definitions for these conditions and unless you are running an insurance company and trying to avoid paying hospital costs, there is really no point in arguing the definitions. The point is that these conditions kill people, a lot of people, and that these conditions can be dealt with successfully. Many people with these conditions will argue that they are merely a bit overweight, have low blood sugar or a metabolism problem, or enjoy a bit of beer now and then and that their behavior is not that bad to warrant a change. That is their business. Denial kills rather unelegantly.

[sabaijai]

Substance abuse and related disorders

Definition

Substance-related disorders are disorders of intoxication, dependence, abuse, and substance withdrawal caused by various substances, both legal and illegal. These substances include: alcohol, amphetamines, caffeine, inhalants, nicotine, prescription medications that may be abused (such as sedatives), opioids (morphine, heroin), marijuana (cannabis), cocaine, hallucinogens, and phencyclidine (PCP).

Description

According to the mental health clinician's handbook, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(the DSM), fourth edition text revised (DSMIV-TR), all of the substances listed above, with the exceptions of nicotine and caffeine, have disorders of two types: substance use disorders and substance-induced disorders. Substance use disorders include abuse and dependence. Substance-induced disorders include intoxication, withdrawal, and various mental states (dementia, psychosis, anxiety, mood disorder, etc.) that the substance induces when it is used.

Substance dependence is characterized by continued use of a substance even after the user has experienced serious substance-related problems. The dependent user desires the substance ("craving") and needs more of the substance to achieve the effect that a lesser amount of the substance induced in the past. This phenomenon is known as tolerance. The dependent user also experiences withdrawal symptoms when the substance is not used. Withdrawal symptoms vary with the substance, but some symptoms may include increased heart rate, shaking, insomnia, fatigue, and irritability.

Substance abuse is continued use of a substance in spite of school- or work-related or interpersonal problems, but the user has not gotten dependent on the substance. The individual who abuses a substance may experience legal problems and may have problems fulfilling responsibilities, such as caring for a child.

Intoxication is the direct effect of the substance after an individual has used or has been exposed to the substance. Different substances affect individuals in various ways, but some of the effects seen in intoxication might include impaired judgment, emotional instability, increase or decrease in appetite, or changed sleep patterns.

The DSM-IV-TRdoes not recognize caffeine abuse or dependence, but does recognize the caffeine-induced disorders caffeine intoxication (restlessness, nervousness, excitement, etc. after caffeine consumption), caffeine-induced anxiety disorder (feelings of anxiety or panic attacks after caffeine consumption), and caffeineinduced sleep disorder (usually insomnia, but some may experience excessive sleepiness when caffeine is not consumed). As for nicotine, the DSM-IV-TRrecognizes nicotine dependence and nicotine withdrawal.

The DSM-IV-TRlists disorders in the following categories:

alcohol-related disorders

amphetamine-related disorders

caffeine-related disorders

cannabis-related disorders

cocaine-related disorders

hallucinogen-related disorders

inhalant-related disorders

nicotine-related disorders

opioid-related disorders

phencyclidine-related disorders

sedative-, hypnotic-, or anxiolytic-related disorders

polysubstance dependence

Resources

BOOKS

American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.Fourth edition, text revised. Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association, 2000.

Source: Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders

[sabaijai]

from the Encyclopedia of Medicine

Alcoholism

Definition

The essential feature of alcohol abuse is the maladaptive use of alcohol with recurrent and significant adverse consequences related to its repeated use. Alcoholism is the popular term for two disorders, alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence. The hallmarks of both these disorders involve repeated life problems that can be directly attributed to the use of alcohol. Both these disorders can have serious consequences, affecting an individual's health and personal life, as well as having an impact on society at large.

from Alcohol Research & Health, Wntr, 2003

Classification of alcohol use disorders

Medical conditions and disorders must be carefully defined both for research and for clinical practice. The most widely used definitions for alcohol use disorders are those determined by editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) of the American Psychiatric Association and the International Classification of Diseases (ICD) of the World Health Organization.

[robitusson]

%5

[The Coder]

A man, or woman, sitting in an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting...

wonder if they're alcoholic or not.

Before trying to solve any type of problem, it is useful to know what the problem is. And as is often said, alcoholics themselves are "the last to know" so it seems a very sensible question to me.

[sabaijai]

There are some on this forum, who are neither doctors or alcoholics, intent on making AA sound like it's not successful, which of course it is. I can only hazzard a guess that it's because they are practising Buddhists who have a big problem not accepting that it is all down to their own will-power.

I don't know whether robitusson is a practicing Buddhist (I don't think he is ) but even if he were, I don't see how that's irrelevant. If it is, then any AA member here who voiced an opinion about AA could be considered equally (or possibly more) biased, especially any member who worked as an AA recruiter here in Thailand. Or to make the analogy even more parallel, any Christian voicing an opinion on AA would be suspect.

Let's all agree to lay off the ad hominem attacks/flames. This thread is about the definition of 'alcoholic' and it seems to me we've agreed before to disagree about the definition ....

[Pattayatony]

I don't know whether robitusson is a practicing Buddhist (I don't think he is ) but even if he were, I don't see how that's irrelevant. If it is, then any AA member here who voiced an opinion about AA could be considered equally (or possibly more) biased, especially any member who worked as an AA recruiter here in Thailand. Or to make the analogy even more parallel, any Christian voicing an opinion on AA would be suspect.

sabaiji>> I didnt know AA had a recruitment center in Thailand or any other place on this planet. The only thing AA members do is try and help alcoholics and believe me AA is not a cult or a religion. Never has been never will be.

Edited December 11, 2006 by sabaijai

[robitusson]

I didnt know AA had a recruitment center in Thailand or any other place on this planet. The only thing AA members do is try and help alcoholics and believe me AA is not a cult or a religion. Never has been never will be.

Saying it's not a cult doesn't make it so unfortunately. Examining the wealth of evidence clearly shows that it is. Admittedly not on the level of Waco, Scientology, the Raelians or anything like that obviously. It being a cult doesn't automatically make it necessarily wrong or evil somehow. It does help us understand it for what it is though, that's all.

AA doesn't need recruitment centres. It has millions of members actively "12th stepping" potential new members, telling them about their need for a Higher Power and their helplessness over their spiritual "disease".

Edited December 10, 2006 by robitusson

[Chris Lawrence]

This may be a bit off the original post, but I thought profound about people in the grip of an addiction. It was sent to me by a friend.

"I AM CRYSTAL METH "

This was written by a young girl who was in jail for drug charges,

and was addicted to crystal meth . She wrote this while in jail.

As you will soon read, she fully grasped the horrors of the drug,

as she tells in this simple, yet profound poem. She was released

from jail, but true to her story, the drug owned her. Please keep

praying for our Children, Teens, Young adults. Understand, this

thing is worse than any of us realize...

My Name: "Is TICK"

I destroy homes, I tear families apart,

take your children, and that's just the start.

I'm more costly than diamonds, more precious than gold,

The sorrow I bring is a sight to behold.

If you need me, remember! I'm easily found,

I live all around you - in schools and in town.

I live with the rich; I live with the poor,

I live down the street, and maybe next door.

I'm made in a lab, but not like you think,

I can be made under the kitchen sink.

In your child's closet, and even in the woods,

If this scares you to death, well it certainly should.

I have many names, but there's one you know best,

I'm sure you've heard of me, my name is crystal meth.

My power is awesome; try me you'll see,

But if you do, you may never break free.

Just try me once and I might let you go,

But try me twice, and I'll own your soul.

When I possess you, you'll steal and you'll lie,

You do what you have to -- just to get high.

The crimes you'll commit for my narcotic charms

Will be worth the pleasure you'll feel in your arms,

(your lungs, and your nose).

You'll lie to your mother; you'll steal from your dad,

When you see their tears, you should feel sad.

But you'll forget your morals and how you were raised,

I'll be your conscience, I'll teach you my ways.

I take kids from parents, and parents from kids,

I turn people from God, and separate friends.

I'll take everything from you, your looks and your pride,

I'll be with you always -- right by your side.

You'll give up everything - your family, your home,

Your friends, your money, then you'll be alone.

I'll take and take, till you have nothing more to give,

When I'm finished with you, you'll be lucky to live.

If you try me be warned - this is no game,

If given the chance, I'll drive you insane.

I'll ravish your body, I'll control your mind,

I'll own you completely, your soul will be mine.

The nightmares I'll give you while lying in bed,

The voices you'll hear, from inside your head.

The sweats, the shakes, the visions you'll see,

I want you to know, these are all gifts from me.

But then it's too late, and you'll know in your heart,

That you are mine, and we shall not part.

You'll regret that you tried me, they always do,

But you came to me, not I to you.

You knew this would happen, many times you were told,

But you challenged my power, and chose to be bold.

You could have said no, and just walked away,

If you could live that day over, now what would you say?

I'll be your master, you will be my slave,

I'll even go with you, when you go to your grave.

Now that you have met me, what will you do?

Will you try me or not? It's all up to you.

I can bring you more misery than words can tell,

Come take my hand, let me lead you to hel_l.

[girlx]

is crystal meth basically the same as yaba? a good friend of mine in thailand used to be a yaba addict. up until the day 2 of his best friends died from it -one by hanging and one by a drug-related accident. he says it was the worst decision he ever made- in addition to killing his friends it made him miss out on most of his teenage years and put his family into a lot of debt.

that said, i have lived with a couple of serious alcoholics in my life and i think alcohol is quite possibly the worst of drugs.

Edited January 3, 2007 by girlx

[Neeranam]

"I AM CRYSTAL METH "

This was written by a young girl who was in jail for drug charges,

and was addicted to crystal meth . She wrote this while in jail.

As you will soon read, she fully grasped the horrors of the drug,

as she tells in this simple, yet profound poem. She was released

from jail, but true to her story, the drug owned her. Please keep

praying for our Children, Teens, Young adults. Understand, this

thing is worse than any of us realize...

Thanks for that. Do you think she lacked will-power for not being able to stay off the drug?

[Chris Lawrence]

is crystal meth basically the same as yaba? a good friend of mine in thailand used to be a yaba addict. up until the day 2 of his best friends died from it -one by hanging and one by a drug-related accident. he says it was the worst decision he ever made- in addition to killing his friends it made him miss out on most of his teenage years and put his family into a lot of debt.

that said, i have lived with a couple of serious alcoholics in my life and i think alcohol is quite possibly the worst of drugs.

Crystal meth (Ice) is different to yaba which I understand is speed. Ice has a different affect on its user, but is still in the same family as speed.

I agree alcohol is a bad drug, but in moderation OK. If a case of beer is costing you more than the cost of that case of beer, suggest u look at the cause.

[Chris Lawrence]

"I AM CRYSTAL METH "

This was written by a young girl who was in jail for drug charges,

and was addicted to crystal meth . She wrote this while in jail.

As you will soon read, she fully grasped the horrors of the drug,

as she tells in this simple, yet profound poem. She was released

from jail, but true to her story, the drug owned her. Please keep

praying for our Children, Teens, Young adults. Understand, this

thing is worse than any of us realize...

Thanks for that. Do you think she lacked will-power for not being able to stay off the drug?

I don't understand what you are trying to understand from this poem about what happens when a person can see no other way out from the torment of their addiction?

Alcohol, herion, Ice etc the dynamics of addiction can be masked by many issues and unresolved problems, with the drug further affecting that person ability to deal with life on life's terms.

I saw a chart that was called a Bell Curve used in teaching students in drug and alcohol studies(mainly used in alcohol studies). Tried to see if I could get it on the internet; couldn't find it. It was fairly simplistic in its assumptions of how a person may progress in alcoholism/addiction and the times that they may try and pull themselves out of this process. Might be worth another look.

I suppose you are right in the end you do lack will power, but what I have seen there is a certian process involved before the will power is lost to the Alcohol, herion, pot, ice etc.

I just thought the poem had impact as to outcome and being a pesonal account.

[Neeranam]

I don't understand what you are trying to understand from this poem about what happens when a person can see no other way out from the torment of their addiction?

I believe that will-power can be absolutely useless for some alcoholics.

Others in this thread disagree. I wanted your opinion, as you seem to know what you're talking about.

I agree with what you replied - I think there was a point in my drinking where I could have given up myself by will-power, but there was some point where it became more important than anything to get that next drink.

I wonder if there are psychological and or physical ways for a doctor to find this.

[Chris Lawrence]

The only thing I know about this "disease" is to keep it simple. Don't try to make it complicated as you may get lost up your you know what. This is a very dark place for an alcoholic.

Everyone has an opinion, and you know what they say about that.

Your short story is similar to any other person griped in this disease; it doesn't matter what you will do to get that next drink, shot, snort or smoke. You will do what ever it takes. If your at this point you have a problem.

How you come out of this and what method works, works for you. The work I have done is at the end stage of the disease; this is when people start to unravel their pain and agony stuck in the grip of an addiction; some describe this as peeling off the layers of an onion.

I have seen religon work (Salvation Army programs), 12 steps; I have seen limited results with CBT and other psychological treatments. I have seen one man that had 2 labotomys-he still drank after the last labotomy. I have seen laying of hands, hypnotherapy, accupunture, yoga, exercise, people swaping their addictions.

It don't matter what you use, so long as you end up with a result. Then again that result may be the catlyst to you doing something about your propblem. Its usually not the programs fault but the person in the program that may hijack the program.Principles before personalities, but then again Neeranam I think you already know this.

Kind regards

[obsession]

I guess it must be true that AA only helps 5% of alcoholics quit, since no one is disputing the figure. Sounds a bit on the low side.

[Robski]

Definition of an alcoholic; a person that drinks as much as you that you don't like.

[ding]

AA doesn't need recruitment centres. It has millions of members actively "12th stepping" potential new members, telling them about their need for a Higher Power and their helplessness over their spiritual "disease".

Actually AA members don't go out looking for potential members. We reluctantly go out in the middle of the night, day, whatever - to 12 step *IF REQUESTED.

But the treatment centers have eliminated much of that. They take your $8,000US and send you to AA after you're done puking. It's cool though, as they put some distance between the last drink and try to get the problem in front of the drunk so maybe he'll look at it.

As for spirituality, layew tday khun, up to you. It's suggested if you want to live in sobriety that the alcoholic continue to grow.

"Take what you want and leave the rest"

But if you want what we have, there are certain steps that we took. AA states what worked for us. Some things didn't work too well. What do you want? AA doesn't mind either way. AA will refund your misery, no ploblum.

I dunno, 1 day is a <deleted>' miracle for a drunk like me. So when I go to a room and see 50 people and maybe 1 or 2 get drunk that day -That's a 96% success rate. It is a 1 day at a time program. There was nothing else going to keep me sober 21 years. And I tried all the usual BS I could figure. It works 100% if you work it. AA works really well, people just need enough pain to work it like they need to -for them {my opinion}.

If there's something better let me know. I'm open. But for now, I like what I've got. And I'd still go to AA too anyway, because I like what it gives me. Free coffee!

[ding]

I guess it must be true that AA only helps 5% of alcoholics quit, since no one is disputing the figure. Sounds a bit on the low side.

For me, I'm not into quibbling about that stuff anymore. It works if you work it. Nobody tracks it anyway.

50% of all statistics are made up. (I read that somewhere)