Thai Navy releases document on why it needs submarines

[webfact]

Navy releases document on why it needs submarines
THE NATION



Insists that maritime interests worth Bt24 trillion need to be protected

BANGKOK: -- THE NAVY has released a nine-page document detailing what it says are the reasons why the country needs to spend Bt36 billion on buying three submarines from China.

The move came after Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha suspended the procurement of the Yuan Class S26T submarines and told the Navy to explain to the public the necessity of protecting the country's marine interests and why it wanted to buy the subs.

In the document, drafted on the order of Navy chief Admiral Kraisorn Chansuwanit, the Navy stated that Thailand's maritime interests amounted to Bt24 trillion per year with an increasing value. They include marine natural resources, marine transport, downstream industries and tourism.

The submarines would be only 0.006 per cent of the total marine interests because they could be used for at least 30 years, the Navy stated.

Almost 95 per cent of the country's imports and exports are transported by sea, it said, adding that about 15,000 cargo vessels passed through the Gulf of Thailand per year. If the gulf, which is 400 kilometres wide, were blocked, as happened during World War II, the country would be badly affected.

The Navy said although there was no war looming, maritime conflicts between countries existed and no one could guarantee that the conflicts would not descend into wars. Having the submarines would be a defensive strategy against wars and a balance of power mechanism.

In terms of its marine capability, the country is lagging 10 years behind neighbouring countries like Singapore, Vietnam and Indonesia.

In response to claims the Yuan Class S26T would not be useful because it can only dive in shallow water and are easy targets for enemies, the Navy argued that the Gulf of Thailand is about 50 metres deep and some operations need to be done near the shore. Planes cannot see submarines which dive down 20 metres, it said.

The Navy said it wanted to buy the submarine because it was efficient and the most value for money. Five other countries would provide only two submarines for Bt36 billion.

The Chinese submarine also had air-independent propulsion that enabled it to stay under water for 21 days compared with subs from other countries that had to emerge to charge batteries every four or five days.

The Chinese subs are also equipped with weapons, including torpedoes and sea mines, the Navy said, adding that their safety is on par with European submarines with a double-hull body.

China also offered eight years of parts service and a two-year guarantee on all equipment in the sub, while other countries offered only a one-year guarantee. China would also transfer knowledge on the sub maintenance, its systems and weapons.

The Navy said the Bt36-billion fund would be paid through instalments over seven to 10 years, or around Bt3 billion to 5 billion per year depending on how much each instalment was set at. The money would not be taken from the central fund or special funds but the Navy's annual budget allocation from the government.

The document was released in response to the government's order for the Navy to explain the plan.

Former Democrat Party MP Watchara Petthong disapproved of the purchase, saying it would be unnecessary spending given the condition of the country's coffers and economy.

"I wonder if the move to push for the sub purchase has something to do with the commission fee,'' he said.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Navy-releases-document-on-why-it-needs-submarines-30265587.html


-- The Nation 2015-07-31

[webfact]

Navy reaffirms submarine purchase intended to protect national interest

BANGKOK, 31 July 2015 (NNT) – The Royal Thai Navy has issued more clarifications on the benefits of the planned purchase of submarines, saying it would raise the national maritime capacity to be on par with that of neighboring countries.

A nine-page document has been unveiled by the Royal Thai Navy, explaining the necessity of its purchase of three submarines of the S26T model worth 36 billion baht from China. The additional clarifications came after Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha ordered the Navy to delay the procurement plan and to publicize more information to support the legitimacy of the project.

The document contains important details on five topics, consisting of the necessity of obtaining the submarines, their contribution to national security, their role in protecting maritime sovereignty, their suitability in the geographical aspect and the Navy’s conclusion on the desired specifications.

Furthermore, the papers also illustrate the size of each country’s submarine fleet within this region, types of submarines in possession of neighboring countries, marine transport routes and the capacity of the S26T model.


-- NNT 2015-07-31

[Somtamnication]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

[EricBerg]

50 meters deep... let them go snorkelling. Seems the boys want new toys.

[ratcatcher]

Talk about clutching at straws. Pathetic desperation setting in to justify totally useless toys.

[NongKhaiKid]

No there's no wars yet but there are maritime conflicts which could descend into such so it makes sense to buy from one of the main protagonists, certainly ensures neutrality and national security.

Anyway 3 neighbours have subs so we want them too and if we don't get them we'll hold our breath until we do.

[bangkokfrog]

I can't understand why the sub base and proposed sub operations are not aimed at the Andaman Sea rather than the Gulf of Thailand. To build the country's only sub base in the Gulf has to be one of the stupidest ideas of all time, as the subs would be sitting ducks coming into or out of the base. And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find, but they would have almost no way of avoiding being destroyed in such shallow water.

Hopefully the army will lend them the blimp so that they can find the debris when it floats to the surface. And if the blimp still has trouble flying, maybe the navy could find a use for the aircraft carrier by giving it a tow.

[BuckBee]

This guy/navy is clueless, AIP has nothing to do with how long subs can stay down, western subs can stay down for months, only limiting factor is food & crew health.

No way a chinese sub will have a 30 year life span

planes with right equipment will see those subs easily, they would be sitting ducks in 50metres of water.

For thailands maritime interest fast response patrol boats & high tech radar system would be far far more useful/versitile .

These guys are simply clueless & couldn't be trusted in tesco lotus to buy some groceries with 360Bt let alone make decisions on spending 36 billion Bt ....

[bamnutsak]

"I wonder if the move to push for the sub purchase has something to do with the commission fee,'' he said.

Will wonders never cease?

Just pay the "commission fee", buy a fleet of Mercs for the Navy lads and save the rest of the money.

[bruceybonus]

Everyone knows it is all about corruption. Tell the people it costs 36 billion, pay the Chinese say 26 billion & divvy up the rest to the avarice top brass.

There must be a lot of mia nois getting restless, waiting for their new Mercs that they have been promised.

[geriatrickid]

What an embarrassing article. It demonstrates the incompetence of the Royal Thai Navy leadership. Wearing lots of gold piping and medals doesn't make one a competent naval officer.

The submarines could be used for at least 30 years, the Navy stated.

Seriously? I mean, seriously? What industrial market products manufactured by China last more than 10 years? The submarines will be obsolete in 10 years as they are not cutting edge or state of the art now.. Why make a claim of a 30 year life expectancy?

The Navy said although there was no war looming, maritime conflicts between countries existed and no one could guarantee that the conflicts would not descend into wars. Having the submarines would be a defensive strategy against wars and a balance of power mechanism.
The only country that presents a military threat is China. Why then would one purchase submarines from a potential enemy? The Chinese will be able to track the Thai submarines and will be able to easily sink them.

In terms of its marine capability, the country is lagging 10 years behind neighbouring countries like Singapore, Vietnam and Indonesia.
Then deal with the training and education gap first. Purchase sufficient numbers of coastal defense vessels first.

In response to claims the Yuan Class S26T would not be useful because it can only dive in shallow water and are easy targets for enemies, the Navy argued that the Gulf of Thailand is about 50 metres deep and some operations need to be done near the shore. Planes cannot see submarines which dive down 20 metres, it said.

Seriously? Is he for real? It's 2015 not 1945. A quick look at the internet will provide a quick listing of common methods to track/hunt submarines.

It is reported that the best depth for a submarine to avoid detection by a hull-mounted sonar (conventionally regarded as the Sonic Layer Depth) is 100 meters+ Modern aircraft can use buoy systems, magnetic anomaly detection, and probes. Maybe he needs to watch the Discovery Channel? How is the admiral going to defend his gulf if his chinese submarines stick out like a Bangla lady boy and become an easy target?

Helicopters and airplanes can detect submarines at depths greater than 50m. Maybe the Thai navy should ask for a demonstration at the next US/Australia/Canada training exercise.

The Chinese subs are also equipped with weapons, including torpedoes and sea mines, the Navy said, adding that their safety is on par with European submarines with a double-hull body.
How does he know about the safety? What's a safer vehicle. a German designed and manufactured car or a knockoff from China? How then could the Chinese build a safe submarine? Are the Chinese known for safety or quality?

Former Democrat Party MP Watchara Petthong disapproved of the purchase. "I wonder if the move to push for the sub purchase has something to do with the commission fee,'' he said.
Wow. Integrity and honesty is still alive in Thailand.

[lujanit]

"In response to claims the Yuan Class S26T would not be useful because it can only dive in shallow water and are easy targets for enemies, the Navy argued that the Gulf of Thailand is about 50 metres deep and some operations need to be done near the shore. Planes cannot see submarines which dive down 20 metres, it said."

I guess the Admiral has never heard of sonar buoys.

[Ricardo]

"If the gulf, which is 400 kilometres wide, were blocked, as happened during World War II, the country would be badly affected."

I wonder whether the RTN recall, just how effective their fleet of four submarines was back then, in keeping the Gulf of Thailand open to shipping ?

Surely they can learn from that experience ! No need to make the same mistake again, seventy years onwards !

"and some operations need to be done near the shore."

Patrol boats can operate in shallower waters than submarines, as the RTN ought to know !

"Planes cannot see submarines which dive down 20 metres, it said."

Erm, I think it's time that they did some more research on that 'fact', and anyway the only credible invader also has satellites, so it wouldn't just be search-planes or helicopters dipping sonars to detect their barely-submerged submarines!

[bamnutsak]

Did you have a point with your question answering a question?

Yes.

[quandow]

Talk about clutching at straws. Pathetic desperation setting in to justify totally useless toys.

And yet again:

hu·bris

ˈ(h)yo͞obrəs/

noun

noun: hubris

excessive pride or self-confidence.

(one for each sub)

[fatfather]

A nine pages report to justify the spending of 36 billion Baht? It must have taken half an hour to write this down, what an effort

Fatfather

[roblgs]

I completely fail to see how three subs, at relatively vast expense, are better than a higher number of coastal defence vessels, and aircraft that can travel faster and provide, backed up by improvements to coastal radar installations to provide better coverage of a large area, and therefore offer far greater cost effectiveness for the job in hand.

The report seems to offer no justification at all for submarines, it only tries to justify purchase of Chinese subs over those from other countries...

The Navy said it wanted to buy the submarine because it was efficient and the most value for money. Five other countries would provide only two submarines for Bt36 billion.

If the money is to be spent on marine/coastal protection then the justification needs to be agains other means of coastal defence and their relative effectiveness... the above report suggests that the released document comes nowhere close to doing that, just says "we get more of these ones for our money than we do of those ones"

[Americano555]

It's not that they need them, It's just some generals NEED TO GET PAID.

Thailand cannot even operate a slow moving train, let alone a sub.

[Ace of Pop]

I fink Jet Ski folks are deterrent enough to deter invaders ,along with silly Immigration Rules ,we're all safe enough.

[tx22cb]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

Miracle of miracles!

I did not expect to find a poster who would defend the submarine purchases with multiple posts!

Equally amazing is that this poster is a Newbie with just 8 posts.

Not that I'm suspicious or anything ....:-)

[Somtamnication]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

It's not only 50 meters deep and are you aware that Thailand also has another entirely different body of water on its western front and that patrol boats and submarines have different capabilities and missions?

Yes, I am aware. Are you aware at their incompetence? Their subs will be grounded more often than not.

[MZurf]

In today's Bangkok Post they say that the Navy also reiterated that the subs were needed so that other countries would be in awe of Thailand.

Don't worry Navy, they are - but for totally different reasons..

[maddermax]

geriatrickid gave the most sensibile reasoning for not buying these eyesores. One should also remember that at least one of them will need to be in refit at any time leaving one or possibly two available for patrol.

[maddermax]

geriatrickid gave the most sensible reasoning for not buying these eyesores. One should also remember that at least one of them will need to be in refit at any time leaving one or possibly two available for patrol.

[Halion]

Reading this article only highlights how inept and ignorant these people are. There is not one cognoscente statement made that would in any way support the argument for submarines and a base on the gulf.

They also forgot to mention that the Thai Navy has a submariner division which has been "active" for over 40 years. They just don't have the vessels

[BSJ]

What I am confident about is if they do get these submarines your average open water diver will be able to dive on the wrecks in the Gulf of Thailand if they are in 40 - 50M. Assuming the height of the subs is 16 -18M. But how long after the subs are commissioned do we have to wait???

[jacko45k]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

If it were a Thai submarine one could simply follow the trail of trash on the surface.

[yuv06]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

The sea around Singapore is average 40 meters deep but they got 6 subs and 2 more on order they will have 8 subs and Indonesia is aiming for 18 subs

[tx22cb]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

Miracle of miracles!

I did not expect to find a poster who would defend the submarine6 purchases with multiple posts!

My posts are not defending the purchase.

They are just pointing out factual information.

Sorry if that surprises you.

Now I'm worried.

Why did you edit my post to leave out the last 2 sentences (reproduced below)?

Equally amazing is that this poster is a Newbie with just 8 posts.

Not that I'm suspicious or anything ....:-)

But to be fair to you, I want to welcome and encourage new members with different opinions, so I apologise if I seemed inhospitable (I was once a Newbie too!). Your opinion is as valid as mine in an open forum.

[yuv06]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

Miracle of miracles!

I did not expect to find a poster who would defend the submarine purchases with multiple posts!

My posts are not defending the purchase.

They are just pointing out factual information.

Sorry if that surprises you.

The Thai Navy are getting a lot of flak because the sub can deploy supersonic cruise missiles that are also a threat even to the mighty US aircraft carriers

Edited July 31, 2015 by yuv06