Thai Navy releases document on why it needs submarines

[razer]

They should take lessons in how to squander money for military purposes from the USA ... bury the request in a 5,000 page document that really doesn't make sense. This keeps all the critics busy trying figure out what's going on while the military goes ahead with the purchase.

[Jimlove]

A nine pages report to justify the spending of 36 billion Baht? It must have taken half an hour to write this down, what an effort

Fatfather

True ... They wrote 9 pages the minute after US kept Thailand on Tier 3 in the TIP ... What an amazing country

[FredNL]

Question: What is the difference between the Thai Navy and a Thai woman???

Answer: None !!!

The Thai Navy is like my Thai Wife. They both like to spend money on worthless items.

Thai Navy = Thai Wife

If the gulf, which is 400 kilometres wide, were blocked, as happened during World War II, the country would be badly affected.

So then it will be time to build a new railroad !!!

[wabothai]

May be the boys should publicize the 9 page note for all Thais to read and understand, and let them decide where their taxdollars are going.

After all Thailand is from the Thai.

[arrowsdawdle]

Talk about clutching at straws. Pathetic desperation setting in to justify totally useless toys.

Useless? Not exactly, but it is kind of hard for them to disclose that they need the subs to ferry Rohingya out to sea and shuttle slave crews to fishing trawlers now that the U.S. and Europe cannot understand that Thai human rights are different, like Thai electricity.

[roath]

Although Western military hardware is covered by official secrets acts etc. there is widespread knowledge of the reliability and safety of Western hardware. China is notoriously secretive (like the Russians). Safety has not historically been their first concern, nor longevity. Equally, you are spot on when you talk about buying military hardware from the one country that is causing geo-political instability in the area. There has been enormous controversy about Western governments buying even civilian hardware in sensitive situations (e.g. for government departments). Buying military hardware would be unthinkable. I am ex-Navy myself, and I cannot see the logic of a country like Thailand having submarines, given their geography and local issues. They need patrol boats and small frigates and for the cost of the subs, the Thai Navy could pay for quite a useful number of them along with top quality training.

What an embarrassing article. It demonstrates the incompetence of the Royal Thai Navy leadership. Wearing lots of gold piping and medals doesn't make one a competent naval officer.

The submarines could be used for at least 30 years, the Navy stated.

Seriously? I mean, seriously? What industrial market products manufactured by China last more than 10 years? The submarines will be obsolete in 10 years as they are not cutting edge or state of the art now.. Why make a claim of a 30 year life expectancy?

The Navy said although there was no war looming, maritime conflicts between countries existed and no one could guarantee that the conflicts would not descend into wars. Having the submarines would be a defensive strategy against wars and a balance of power mechanism.
The only country that presents a military threat is China. Why then would one purchase submarines from a potential enemy? The Chinese will be able to track the Thai submarines and will be able to easily sink them.

In terms of its marine capability, the country is lagging 10 years behind neighbouring countries like Singapore, Vietnam and Indonesia.
Then deal with the training and education gap first. Purchase sufficient numbers of coastal defense vessels first.

In response to claims the Yuan Class S26T would not be useful because it can only dive in shallow water and are easy targets for enemies, the Navy argued that the Gulf of Thailand is about 50 metres deep and some operations need to be done near the shore. Planes cannot see submarines which dive down 20 metres, it said.

Seriously? Is he for real? It's 2015 not 1945. A quick look at the internet will provide a quick listing of common methods to track/hunt submarines.

It is reported that the best depth for a submarine to avoid detection by a hull-mounted sonar (conventionally regarded as the Sonic Layer Depth) is 100 meters+ Modern aircraft can use buoy systems, magnetic anomaly detection, and probes. Maybe he needs to watch the Discovery Channel? How is the admiral going to defend his gulf if his chinese submarines stick out like a Bangla lady boy and become an easy target?

Helicopters and airplanes can detect submarines at depths greater than 50m. Maybe the Thai navy should ask for a demonstration at the next US/Australia/Canada training exercise.

The Chinese subs are also equipped with weapons, including torpedoes and sea mines, the Navy said, adding that their safety is on par with European submarines with a double-hull body.
How does he know about the safety? What's a safer vehicle. a German designed and manufactured car or a knockoff from China? How then could the Chinese build a safe submarine? Are the Chinese known for safety or quality?

Former Democrat Party MP Watchara Petthong disapproved of the purchase. "I wonder if the move to push for the sub purchase has something to do with the commission fee,'' he said.
Wow. Integrity and honesty is still alive in Thailand.

[roath]

Question: What is the difference between the Thai Navy and a Thai woman???

Answer: None !!!

The Thai Navy is like my Thai Wife. They both like to spend money on worthless items.

Thai Navy = Thai Wife

If the gulf, which is 400 kilometres wide, were blocked, as happened during World War II, the country would be badly affected.

So then it will be time to build a new railroad !!!

If the gulf were blocked stopping international trade, it is highly likely that the NATO ally Navies would be round pretty quick with some pretty chunky aircraft carriers and weapons capabilities, as they have done in the Arabian Gulf to fight the pirates. The biggest problem in this area is piracy, for which you need good quality patrol boats (i.e. fast) not subs (i.e. slow). The other point is that in reality, the only country with any significant naval capacity in the region is China, and if they really had a go at Thailand, it is unlikely that we would be talking about a local spat but probably WWIII!!!

[FredNL]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

The sea around Singapore is average 40 meters deep but they got 6 subs and 2 more on order they will have 8 subs and Indonesia is aiming for 18 subs

@ yuv06 NOT TRUE !!!

The Singapore Strait (90 Nm long) is up to 160 meters deep !!! (average is 60 meters, shallow shores included)

Edited July 31, 2015 by FredNL

[mercman24]

post 55, yep totally agee, never laughed so much, this has to be the best topic this year, for humour so far, do they think they will be fighting ww2 all over again, ? wise up guys the world has moved on a bit. yep it is all about kick backs, nothing else,if these guys had a brain they would be dangerous lol !!

[harrry]

China also offered eight years of parts service and a two-year guarantee on all equipment

That is all well and good but is that unlimited mileage or capped at (say) 1,000 miles a year ?

I will remember that next time my Thai or Chinese product fails.

Sorry sir,,that is not covered under the warrantee you have used it.

[slapout]

Well the 9 page report /request should give a hint to the public of what the chance for approval is, Slim and none. Otherwise the report would have been at least a truck load of documents boxed and taped so it would take at least a couple months to unpack, put in order and then make copies for anyone who shows an intrest. The local bin man would end up being the only one to gain as he sells by kilo weight.

[Zyxel]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

The sea around Singapore is average 40 meters deep but they got 6 subs and 2 more on order they will have 8 subs and Indonesia is aiming for 18 subs

Having subs to protect your country does not mean you will use them only in your territorial waters but also in the territorial water of your enemies. This does not apply to Thailand but Singapore had to worry in the past about Indonesia and Malaysia.

[harrry]

With the money buy a huge fleet of 60 ft motor cruisers...mount a machine gun on the front. They could spend their time doing training missions taking Government Officials for a ride (a change from taking the public for a ride) and occasionally justify their keep by intercepting a fishing boat or two.,l

[z42]

Pathetic. End of story. For the many obvious flaws listed by opponents of the purchase and forum members here it would be farcical to continue.

But TiT.. Stupidity and greed are likely to win the day again

[yuv06]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

The sea around Singapore is average 40 meters deep but they got 6 subs and 2 more on order they will have 8 subs and Indonesia is aiming for 18 subs

Lets not forget

Singapore = non 3rd world country

Indonesia = huge coastal area

Thailand = 3rd world + small coastal area

We all know the reasons, skimming and ego

Singapore country 1/4 size of Bangkok with very small sea to patrol

Indonesia is emerging market country same as Thailand BTW Indonesia is poorer than Thailand

[yuv06]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

The sea around Singapore is average 40 meters deep but they got 6 subs and 2 more on order they will have 8 subs and Indonesia is aiming for 18 subs

Having subs to protect your country does not mean you will use them only in your territorial waters but also in the territorial water of your enemies. This does not apply to Thailand but Singapore had to worry in the past about Indonesia and Malaysia.

That was like 50 years ago Thailand on the other hand nearly had a full blown war with Myanmar in 2001

[harrry]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

The sea around Singapore is average 40 meters deep but they got 6 subs and 2 more on order they will have 8 subs and Indonesia is aiming for 18 subs

Lets not forget

Singapore = non 3rd world country

Indonesia = huge coastal area

Thailand = 3rd world + small coastal area

We all know the reasons, skimming and ego

Singapore country 1/4 size of Bangkok with very small sea to patrol

Indonesia is emerging market country same as Thailand BTW Indonesia is poorer than Thailand

As Singapore is such a small country compared to Bangkok can we assume it has only a quarter of the sea trade that Bangkok does?

[Capt Rob]

What an embarrassing article. It demonstrates the incompetence of the Royal Thai Navy leadership. Wearing lots of gold piping and medals doesn't make one a competent naval officer.

The submarines could be used for at least 30 years, the Navy stated.

Seriously? I mean, seriously? What industrial market products manufactured by China last more than 10 years? The submarines will be obsolete in 10 years as they are not cutting edge or state of the art now.. Why make a claim of a 30 year life expectancy?

The Navy said although there was no war looming, maritime conflicts between countries existed and no one could guarantee that the conflicts would not descend into wars. Having the submarines would be a defensive strategy against wars and a balance of power mechanism.

The only country that presents a military threat is China. Why then would one purchase submarines from a potential enemy? The Chinese will be able to track the Thai submarines and will be able to easily sink them.

In terms of its marine capability, the country is lagging 10 years behind neighbouring countries like Singapore, Vietnam and Indonesia.

Then deal with the training and education gap first. Purchase sufficient numbers of coastal defense vessels first.

In response to claims the Yuan Class S26T would not be useful because it can only dive in shallow water and are easy targets for enemies, the Navy argued that the Gulf of Thailand is about 50 metres deep and some operations need to be done near the shore. Planes cannot see submarines which dive down 20 metres, it said.

Seriously? Is he for real? It's 2015 not 1945. A quick look at the internet will provide a quick listing of common methods to track/hunt submarines.

It is reported that the best depth for a submarine to avoid detection by a hull-mounted sonar (conventionally regarded as the Sonic Layer Depth) is 100 meters+ Modern aircraft can use buoy systems, magnetic anomaly detection, and probes. Maybe he needs to watch the Discovery Channel? How is the admiral going to defend his gulf if his chinese submarines stick out like a Bangla lady boy and become an easy target?

Helicopters and airplanes can detect submarines at depths greater than 50m. Maybe the Thai navy should ask for a demonstration at the next US/Australia/Canada training exercise.

The Chinese subs are also equipped with weapons, including torpedoes and sea mines, the Navy said, adding that their safety is on par with European submarines with a double-hull body.

How does he know about the safety? What's a safer vehicle. a German designed and manufactured car or a knockoff from China? How then could the Chinese build a safe submarine? Are the Chinese known for safety or quality?

Former Democrat Party MP Watchara Petthong disapproved of the purchase. "I wonder if the move to push for the sub purchase has something to do with the commission fee,'' he said.

Wow. Integrity and honesty is still alive in Thailand.

A condensed but cogent article covering most of the salient points re submarine purchase.

I would add that there is a further consideration when considering submarines that is the maintenance issue - cost is horrendous even a superficial check with any navy operating submarines safely and efficiently will reveal this. The competent technical expertise for such maintenance is in short supply.

Bang for one's dollar would point toward surface craft and at least as defensible as sub surface craft in a restricted operational area.

[SupermarineS6B]

Boys wanting new toys....... Patrol boats are the way, Just like them big old German E boats, complete with torpedoes..... "Stop traffic just like in WW2" ????? Someones not reading history again....... Most of that traffic was JAPANESE ! and it was heading to Klong Toey....... Explain that one..... Pearl Harbour Dec 7th 41, Dec 9th 41, Klong Toey was full of Japanese ships............ Oooooops....... My father was out here sinking Japanese ships and submarines in a submarine, and considering he'd survived the North Atlantic and Malta, he said that out here scared him poo less because of the shallowness of the seas, and the probability of getting a mine dropped on you......... Learn from history Somchai..... It's cheaper.........

Edited July 31, 2015 by SupermarineS6B

[gchurch259]

I was in the US Air Force, not Navy, but I believe submarines basically serve two main purposes; (1) Launch Torpedoes, (2) Launch Missiles from underwater. Why would Thailand need to do either. Their Air Force can bomb or launch missiles against any threat in the Gulf other bodies of water around Thailand.

Spend the money on Education for the rural Provinces !! What Thailand needs is better educated citizens with enough circumspect to understand the outside World and improve their place in the World.

It is a very nice country with a majority of the people being nice, they do have a serious problem with violence and they need to work on that !!

Been living here 11 years.

[NongKhaiKid]

No there's no wars yet but there are maritime conflicts which could descend into such so it makes sense to buy from one of the main protagonists, certainly ensures neutrality and national security.

Anyway 3 neighbours have subs so we want them too and if we don't get them we'll hold our breath until we do.

Buying them from the Chinese will be helpful in the future when they board them; the controls will already be in Chinese.

i wonder if the Chinese will be salvaging rather than boarding ?

[sammygood]

they confuse the use of boats with a toy that goes under water ?

i would say, a submarine is ideal to hide a lot of gold, cash, drugs and leave the country for an elite amount of people, without anybody noticing

[Jonathon]

Whatever one wants that must be dependable and safe the last place to look for it is China.

[Baerboxer]

Although Western military hardware is covered by official secrets acts etc. there is widespread knowledge of the reliability and safety of Western hardware. China is notoriously secretive (like the Russians). Safety has not historically been their first concern, nor longevity. Equally, you are spot on when you talk about buying military hardware from the one country that is causing geo-political instability in the area. There has been enormous controversy about Western governments buying even civilian hardware in sensitive situations (e.g. for government departments). Buying military hardware would be unthinkable. I am ex-Navy myself, and I cannot see the logic of a country like Thailand having submarines, given their geography and local issues. They need patrol boats and small frigates and for the cost of the subs, the Thai Navy could pay for quite a useful number of them along with top quality training.

What an embarrassing article. It demonstrates the incompetence of the Royal Thai Navy leadership. Wearing lots of gold piping and medals doesn't make one a competent naval officer.

The submarines could be used for at least 30 years, the Navy stated.

Seriously? I mean, seriously? What industrial market products manufactured by China last more than 10 years? The submarines will be obsolete in 10 years as they are not cutting edge or state of the art now.. Why make a claim of a 30 year life expectancy?

The Navy said although there was no war looming, maritime conflicts between countries existed and no one could guarantee that the conflicts would not descend into wars. Having the submarines would be a defensive strategy against wars and a balance of power mechanism.

The only country that presents a military threat is China. Why then would one purchase submarines from a potential enemy? The Chinese will be able to track the Thai submarines and will be able to easily sink them.

In terms of its marine capability, the country is lagging 10 years behind neighbouring countries like Singapore, Vietnam and Indonesia.

Then deal with the training and education gap first. Purchase sufficient numbers of coastal defense vessels first.

In response to claims the Yuan Class S26T would not be useful because it can only dive in shallow water and are easy targets for enemies, the Navy argued that the Gulf of Thailand is about 50 metres deep and some operations need to be done near the shore. Planes cannot see submarines which dive down 20 metres, it said.

Seriously? Is he for real? It's 2015 not 1945. A quick look at the internet will provide a quick listing of common methods to track/hunt submarines.

It is reported that the best depth for a submarine to avoid detection by a hull-mounted sonar (conventionally regarded as the Sonic Layer Depth) is 100 meters+ Modern aircraft can use buoy systems, magnetic anomaly detection, and probes. Maybe he needs to watch the Discovery Channel? How is the admiral going to defend his gulf if his chinese submarines stick out like a Bangla lady boy and become an easy target?

Helicopters and airplanes can detect submarines at depths greater than 50m. Maybe the Thai navy should ask for a demonstration at the next US/Australia/Canada training exercise.

The Chinese subs are also equipped with weapons, including torpedoes and sea mines, the Navy said, adding that their safety is on par with European submarines with a double-hull body.

How does he know about the safety? What's a safer vehicle. a German designed and manufactured car or a knockoff from China? How then could the Chinese build a safe submarine? Are the Chinese known for safety or quality?

Former Democrat Party MP Watchara Petthong disapproved of the purchase. "I wonder if the move to push for the sub purchase has something to do with the commission fee,'' he said.

Wow. Integrity and honesty is still alive in Thailand.

You are being too sensible and applying knowledge. Of course the maritime defense is important. Frigates. fast patrol boats, similar to Germany's or Swedens, good quality with excellent training would be vastly better. Thailand's maritime area is easily protected by the air too. Whether that's the air force or if they have some kind of Fleet Air Arm.

Someone wants submarines and someone wants to buy the Chinese ones. Whether it makes any sense is not the issue. Getting your own way and not being challenged is; together with the skimming of course. Everyone runs their own fiefdom here and wants a share of the cake.

[Ace of Pop]

Why dont they build there own.They seem to be rated good at submerging vessels of Pats

[djjamie]

Prayut was wise to hold off on the purchase of these subs in light of the majorities wishes and after seeing this business case the Navy have forwarded I am sure Prayut will not proceed with this purchase.

Now waiting for the next headline stating "Prayut tells Navy they will not be getting submarines" which will be quickly followed by comments denouncing Prayut.

Damned if he does. Damned if he doesn't.

[jerojero]

Can be used for 30 years. Used for what? Just going to float around, likely docked most of the time. It a stupid waste of tax payers money. Pigs at the public trough!

[Fat Haggis]

Prayut was wise to hold off on the purchase of these subs in light of the majorities wishes and after seeing this business case the Navy have forwarded I am sure Prayut will not proceed with this purchase.

Now waiting for the next headline stating "Prayut tells Navy they will not be getting submarines" which will be quickly followed by comments denouncing Prayut.

Damned if he does. Damned if he doesn't.

Wrong! He already told them they were not getting them, but yet they are the ones who are not listening to him, with their latest petition.

Seems the RTN doesn't want to play by the RTA rules anymore

[Jim walker]

Have they some information regarding an imminent sea borne invasion from Singapore, Vietnam and Indonesia. And these submarines from China for only 36 Billion Baht special offer for one day only or was it a buy two get third free and also can be taken out on the never never over 10 years HP, but they wwont belong to you until the final payment is made, and according to all the non-Thai experts the seas are too shallow and the subs could be sunk from a rowing boat with a hand grenade, or would the navy buy some dredgers at a later date to make the seas deeper around Thailand. Admiral Kraisorn Chansuwanit I think you need to look at the whole project again and come up with a better case for a sub my opinion stick to the top of the water its deeper from there. Better to get the aircraft carrier going first and have the planes bristling with ante submarine weapon’s then no need to fight with subs you can just go sink the ones from Singapore, Vietnam and Indonesia. Easy peasy . war won job done collect your new battle Admiral medals.

[tomacht8]

"I wonder if the move to push for the sub purchase has something to do with the commission fee,'' he said.

That is the only correct explanation why Thailand needs submarines.

Everything else is nonsense.