Man stabs several people at Jerusalem gay pride parade

[Thorgal]

Is it just me, or do I notice to avoid here on this thread to discuss the radical Judaisme and struggling secularisation in Israel. For me a ticking time bomb, knowing that Haredim reject the creation of the state of Israel and its constitutions : law, army,...

A lot of derogatory posts of Islamic, Christian and other ethnic minority groups have been brought falsely into this debate.

Ultra Orthodox Jews reject homosexuality. Despite efforts with US banners and a vote hunting PM to offer a smoke screen. The PM on the other hand committed for his coalition to the ultra orthodox clerics to introduce more and more religious laws. Giving 2 rivalling parties more rights will result in clashes like OP.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Thorgal

[Linky]

Although a long way to go, no one has pointed out same-sex sexual intercourse is legal in 19 Muslim majority countries.

Sure thing, buster, the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights. You failed to mention the very high percentage of Muslim countries where homosexuality is criminalized even by death. Nice try. No rainbow flag. Also decriminalizing sex acts is a basic first step. That says nothing about discrimination laws and practices. Trying to pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people is a non-starter. That would be great but it isn't so.

In the same manner you often request, kindly cease false narrative. I did not claim nor attempt to claim "the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights" or "pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people". Only that in 19 Muslim majority countries same-sex sexual intercourse is legal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

Dude, GLBT civil rights are about a lot more than sex acts.

I also believe your post was done to intentionally MISLEAD by mentioning the number of Muslim countries that further your absurd narrative and failing to mention the higher number that didn't. Readers can decide. I suggest you not reply to this as we've both had our say on this off topic matter that you introduced.

intentionally to mislead, sorry, MISLEAD, when stating a fact. ?

And what has this thread got to do with muslims?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Linky

[Scott]

It's just you. Stay on topic.

[Lissos]

Is it just me, or do I notice to avoid here on this thread to discuss the radical Judaisme and struggling secularisation in Israel. For me a ticking time bomb, knowing that Haredim reject the creation of the state of Israel and its constitutions : law, army,...

A lot of derogatory posts of Islamic, Christian and other ethnic minority groups have been brought falsely into this debate.

Ultra Orthodox Jews reject homosexuality. Despite efforts with US banners and a vote hunting PM to offer a smoke screen. The PM on the other hand committed for his coalition to the ultra orthodox clerics to introduce more and more religious laws. Giving 2 rivalling parties more rights will result in clashes like OP.

I'm not sure it is being avoided. After all, one went on a knife rampage. Never mind gay folks, the vibe can feel hostile just walking in Mea sharim in Jerusalem, towards those who clearly aren't living in 1800s Poland.

Yes,a lot of them reject the State of Israel while benefitting from it left, right and centre. They'd be quite happy as Dhimma to Islamic rulers all over again, hence the reason Palestinian nationalists love some of these guys and wheel them out as trophy Jews in their protests. Jews under Islamic dominion is what Muslims prefer, and is what 'these' Jews feel is the natural order.

What else can we say about them?

[simple1]

Although a long way to go, no one has pointed out same-sex sexual intercourse is legal in 19 Muslim majority countries.

Sure thing, buster, the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights. You failed to mention the very high percentage of Muslim countries where homosexuality is criminalized even by death. Nice try. No rainbow flag. Also decriminalizing sex acts is a basic first step. That says nothing about discrimination laws and practices. Trying to pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people is a non-starter. That would be great but it isn't so.

In the same manner you often request, kindly cease false narrative. I did not claim nor attempt to claim "the Muslim world a beacon of gay civil rights" or "pass off the Muslim world as a safe and friendly place for GLBT people". Only that in 19 Muslim majority countries same-sex sexual intercourse is legal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

Dude, GLBT civil rights are about a lot more than sex acts.

I also believe your post was done to intentionally MISLEAD by mentioning the number of Muslim countries that further your absurd narrative and failing to mention the higher number that didn't. Readers can decide. I suggest you not reply to this as we've both had our say on this off topic matter that you introduced.

Scott, I trust you will permit a reply, I am tired of personal false assertions of intent.

The subject of Muslims was first raised by others within this topic. IMO there is way to much vilification of Muslims in general on this forum, often when Muslims are not even the topic, as is the case with this OP.

Given there are so many self acclaimed subject matter experts on Islam / Muslims on this forum, people would know 19 countries represents the minority of Muslim nations. Your accusation I "intentionally mislead" is incorrect.

Edited August 1, 2015 by simple1

[Jingthing]

In the wake of the pride event stabbings, a closeted Israeli politician decides to come out.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/1.668912

"This despicable act that took place in the 'city of God' targeted us al. It targeted our right to be different, to make our own choices and to accept those different from us and include them (within society)," MK Shmuli wrote.

"In the name of what god did the despicable criminal attack the crowd at the parade? In the name of what religion did he pull out a knife and began to stab and stab again?" he asked rhetorically. "We can no longer stay quiet, because this silence fuels the hatred that undermines the promise of equal rights. We were silent. No more," he wrote.

[Jingthing]

...

The subject of Muslims was first raised by others within this topic. IMO there is way to much vilification of Muslims in general on this forum, often when Muslims are not even the topic, as is the case with this OP.

...

I am entitled to my opinion about intents. I saw your item as a blatant and cynical attempt to "pinkwash" the Muslim world. But it doesn't wash not while ISIS is throwing gays off buildings and Iran forces gay men to cut their genitals off to avoid the death penalty (motivated by Islamic religious fundamentalism).

So enough is enough. Welcome to my ignore list.

No, of course Israel isn't perfect either on GLBT issues (or anything else for that matter), but it IS much better on GLBT issues than any Muslim dominated nation.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[Lissos]

In defense of Simple1, his post was merely pointing something out.

In various parts of the 'sort of' Muslim world which are part of the modern world (and essentially have to disobey, in order to be) they are more realistic even if males may be engaging in this less out of genuine feelings but practical problems of being denied any pre-marital intimacy.

It happens everywhere from Jakarta to Rawalpindi to Fez, and authorities are not going to be throwing people in jail every day because they are realistic. Even in Iran, there may be that strict formal ruling but it goes on nonetheless. Money talks, and the 'hardline strict religious police' are as corrupt as many officials worldwide. If you have money and are raided, nothing happens. If you're a teen from a poor family it is more likely you'll be a sacrificial lamb wheeled out for one of the occasional show executions to keep up the facade of strict no tolerance. Money talks.

In Ramallah (west bank) I had assumed it was hardline when talking with a Gay Palestinian who was rather (but not outrageously) camp. I was talking with him in a manner that was assuming he has to move in the shadows and his response (I'll never forget this one) was - "Bitch, pleeease". Not to say this was Tel Aviv. Because of his camp mannerisms he was verbally abused by some men and boys at market stalls as we walked, and once you get to Nablus I doubt he could be as overt, but it did show that unless you are in Islamic State territory or similar, a surprising amount goes on behind closed doors from home alcohol brewing and consumption in Iran, to this.

Infact, authorities in many such nations keep tabs on unmarried females more so, because they don't want Girls engaging in pre marital sex.

[geriatrickid]

Is it just me, or do I notice to avoid here on this thread to discuss the radical Judaisme and struggling secularisation in Israel. For me a ticking time bomb, knowing that Haredim reject the creation of the state of Israel and its constitutions : law, army,...

A lot of derogatory posts of Islamic, Christian and other ethnic minority groups have been brought falsely into this debate.

Ultra Orthodox Jews reject homosexuality. Despite efforts with US banners and a vote hunting PM to offer a smoke screen. The PM on the other hand committed for his coalition to the ultra orthodox clerics to introduce more and more religious laws. Giving 2 rivalling parties more rights will result in clashes like OP.

Secular practices in Israel are not struggling any more or worse than they are in other developed countries. The fact remains that Israel has human rights legislation that protects and ensures the rights of its citizens. The track record of its courts shows that the judiciary is independent and is willing and able to enforce those laws. This exceeds the conditions that exist in a majority of its critics.

Yes, Ultra Orthodox jews reject the practice of homosexuality, but they do not reject homosexuals. I don't like holy rollers and could offer up a page of epithets and derisive comments as to my views, but the fact remains that the killing or doing of physical injury to homosexuals is contrary to the teachings of these holy rollers. Religious jews take the 10 commandments seriously and one of those commandments is YOU SHALL NOT MURDER.

As you are now an expert on the holy rollers and their beliefs, perhaps you have heard of these ten commandments and the edict about murder?

Yes, the Israeli government consists of a coalition. That is what happens with a purer form of democracy associated with proportional representation. This is why countries who have the system are dysfunctional, (e.g. Italy). The obsession with giving everyone a voice in a parliament is not efficient. It is technically more fair, .but it just doesn't work. It forces compromise and it forces the majority to listen to a minority. You are upset because the government includes a political party that has conservative political views. Under your approach, that minority does not deserve a voice. Oddly enough, the religious parties are not hardliners when it comes to the negotiations with arab states. They are hard line on social practices that they believe contravene the laws set out in the bible. It is their right to think like backward oafs. They are held in check by human rights legislation and the Israeli constitution and the majority of Israelis.

Edited August 1, 2015 by geriatrickid

[Seastallion]

Some here have claimed that Israel is a democracy in which homosexuals live safely amongst a moderate society. :-?

Not a word of that description of Israel is accurate.

You just had to get a dig in at Israel didn't you? Israel like some Scandanavian countries places a high emphasis on rehabilitation and reintegration into society of offenders and the mentally ill. 10 years in custody is a long time for a stabbing by western standards. If the penalty phases is up, then its up. The prison system couldn't hold this wacko unless certified as insane and obviously no mental health specialist did that.

There is no doubt that the man was mentally ill. When crazies stab people at other events around the world do you make the same claims? The fact is that homosexuals in Israel certainly are safe and certainly have a much easier time than in any of their surrounding countries, including some European countries such as Bulgaria, Romania, the former Yugoslavia, the Baltic republics, Poland, Hungary etc.

Instead of trying to find a way to to criticize Israel under the guise of polite discourse, why not just say that you hate Israel and you don't like jews? You could just copy and paste on any thread related to Israel.

From the OP;

""I do think that homophobia is rooted in the city, but that's the point of the parade," said Benny Zupick,"

[Lissos]

Isn't it curious that the usual suspects make post after post after post about Islam..

Perhaps, but anyone who has been paying attention will have noticed something peculiar about Islam, which is that Islam itself 'demands' our attention anyway. Islam neithers abides being given attention to by Kuffar, nor being ignored by Kuffar. Muhammad set this trend. In other words, you can't win with Islam (as intended). Damned if you talk about it, damned if you don't. Damned if you try to assist Muslims, damned if you don't. Kuffar, doctrinally are 'always' wrong. Kuffar were destined to obey, to live alongside Islam on 'Islam's' terms. Kuffar can't ignore that, nor expose it.

[Loptr]

Some here have claimed that Israel is a democracy in which homosexuals live safely amongst a moderate society. :-?

Not a word of that description of Israel is accurate.

It is a LOT more accurate than any of the Muslim countries surrounding it, but any excuse to hate.

Sorry, trying to find where this has anything to do with muslims. Perhaps I missed it.

But it does say a lot about Israel when you are forced to lower expectations so much that all you have got is to compare it to extremist muslim areas. Not really a high hurdle to overcomebut does indicate how low Israel sets the bar.

Reminds me of the but but but Thaksin brigade

Ummmh...racist much?

I will give you that you tried to soften your stance with "extremist" (but is there any Muslim country where one can live an openly gay life?) but the implication that it is to be accepted and tolerated due to their faith is looming large in your post.

And you understand that this was a gay pride parade, a small one compared to Tel Aviv, with government protection that a "lone wolf" attacked?

And yet another person that doesn't know the difference between a race and a religion...

[dave_boo]

It is a LOT more accurate than any of the Muslim countries surrounding it, but any excuse to hate.

Sorry, trying to find where this has anything to do with muslims. Perhaps I missed it.

But it does say a lot about Israel when you are forced to lower expectations so much that all you have got is to compare it to extremist muslim areas. Not really a high hurdle to overcomebut does indicate how low Israel sets the bar.

Reminds me of the but but but Thaksin brigade

Ummmh...racist much?

I will give you that you tried to soften your stance with "extremist" (but is there any Muslim country where one can live an openly gay life?) but the implication that it is to be accepted and tolerated due to their faith is looming large in your post.

And you understand that this was a gay pride parade, a small one compared to Tel Aviv, with government protection that a "lone wolf" attacked?

And yet another person that doesn't know the difference between a race and a religion...

And another smarmy poster with weak reading comprehension.

We'll start with a premise; the countries surrounding Israel are Arab Muslim countries. We can agree on that?

Ulysses presented a viewpoint that the Israeli attitudes towards the community are better than the surrounding countries. With the implication being that was the goal to strive towards. No suggestions that the surrounding countries couldn't be the same.

Linky on the other hand seems to have taken a different tack in that he expects such a behaviour from those Arab Muslims.

My question was there ANY Muslim country (outside of the Arab Muslim countries being discussed) that allows an open gay community kinda contradicts your assertion that I can't separate religion from race.

[samran]

Isn't it curious that the usual suspects make post after post after post about Islam..

Perhaps, but anyone who has been paying attention will have noticed something peculiar about Islam, which is that Islam itself 'demands' our attention anyway. Islam neithers abides being given attention to by Kuffar, nor being ignored by Kuffar. Muhammad set this trend. In other words, you can't win with Islam (as intended). Damned if you talk about it, damned if you don't. Damned if you try to assist Muslims, damned if you don't. Kuffar, doctrinally are 'always' wrong. Kuffar were destined to obey, to live alongside Islam on 'Islam's' terms. Kuffar can't ignore that, nor expose it.

Tell that to the 20% of people who are muslim citizens of Israel.

[samran]

Some here have claimed that Israel is a democracy in which homosexuals live safely amongst a moderate society. :-?

Not a word of that description of Israel is accurate.

It is a LOT more accurate than any of the Muslim countries surrounding it, but any excuse to hate.

Sorry, trying to find where this has anything to do with muslims. Perhaps I missed it.

But it does say a lot about Israel when you are forced to lower expectations so much that all you have got is to compare it to extremist muslim areas. Not really a high hurdle to overcomebut does indicate how low Israel sets the bar.

Reminds me of the but but but Thaksin brigade

Ummmh...racist much?

I will give you that you tried to soften your stance with "extremist" (but is there any Muslim country where one can live an openly gay life?) but the implication that it is to be accepted and tolerated due to their faith is looming large in your post.

And you understand that this was a gay pride parade, a small one compared to Tel Aviv, with government protection that a "lone wolf" attacked?

And yet another person that doesn't know the difference between a race and a religion...

The standard line we hear from the bigots these days Edited August 2, 2015 by Scott

[Linky]

Isn't it curious that the usual suspects make post after post after post about Islam..

Perhaps, but anyone who has been paying attention will have noticed something peculiar about Islam, which is that Islam itself 'demands' our attention anyway. Islam neithers abides being given attention to by Kuffar, nor being ignored by Kuffar. Muhammad set this trend. In other words, you can't win with Islam (as intended). Damned if you talk about it, damned if you don't. Damned if you try to assist Muslims, damned if you don't. Kuffar, doctrinally are 'always' wrong. Kuffar were destined to obey, to live alongside Islam on 'Islam's' terms. Kuffar can't ignore that, nor expose it.

So the next time someone gets drunk in Thailand we should all discuss Islam. ?

[Linky]

It is a LOT more accurate than any of the Muslim countries surrounding it, but any excuse to hate.

Sorry, trying to find where this has anything to do with muslims. Perhaps I missed it.

But it does say a lot about Israel when you are forced to lower expectations so much that all you have got is to compare it to extremist muslim areas. Not really a high hurdle to overcomebut does indicate how low Israel sets the bar.

Reminds me of the but but but Thaksin brigade

Ummmh...racist much?

I will give you that you tried to soften your stance with "extremist" (but is there any Muslim country where one can live an openly gay life?) but the implication that it is to be accepted and tolerated due to their faith is looming large in your post.

And you understand that this was a gay pride parade, a small one compared to Tel Aviv, with government protection that a "lone wolf" attacked?

And yet another person that doesn't know the difference between a race and a religion...

And another smarmy poster with weak reading comprehension.

We'll start with a premise; the countries surrounding Israel are Arab Muslim countries. We can agree on that?

Ulysses presented a viewpoint that the Israeli attitudes towards the community are better than the surrounding countries. With the implication being that was the goal to strive towards. No suggestions that the surrounding countries couldn't be the same.

Linky on the other hand seems to have taken a different tack in that he expects such a behaviour from those Arab Muslims.

My question was there ANY Muslim country (outside of the Arab Muslim countries being discussed) that allows an open gay community kinda contradicts your assertion that I can't separate religion from race.

Which has nothing to Do with the topic

[yadongbreakfast]

The rabbi might meet his match is he stepped up in pattaya beach after dark.

[dave_boo]

It is a LOT more accurate than any of the Muslim countries surrounding it, but any excuse to hate.

Sorry, trying to find where this has anything to do with muslims. Perhaps I missed it.

But it does say a lot about Israel when you are forced to lower expectations so much that all you have got is to compare it to extremist muslim areas. Not really a high hurdle to overcomebut does indicate how low Israel sets the bar.

Reminds me of the but but but Thaksin brigade

Ummmh...racist much?

I will give you that you tried to soften your stance with "extremist" (but is there any Muslim country where one can live an openly gay life?) but the implication that it is to be accepted and tolerated due to their faith is looming large in your post.

And you understand that this was a gay pride parade, a small one compared to Tel Aviv, with government protection that a "lone wolf" attacked?

And yet another person that doesn't know the difference between a race and a religion...

And another smarmy poster with weak reading comprehension.

We'll start with a premise; the countries surrounding Israel are Arab Muslim countries. We can agree on that?

Ulysses presented a viewpoint that the Israeli attitudes towards the community are better than the surrounding countries. With the implication being that was the goal to strive towards. No suggestions that the surrounding countries couldn't be the same.

Linky on the other hand seems to have taken a different tack in that he expects such a behaviour from those Arab Muslims.

My question was there ANY Muslim country (outside of the Arab Muslim countries being discussed) that allows an open gay community kinda contradicts your assertion that I can't separate religion from race.

Which has nothing to Do with the topic

It's was a follow on question to your dismissive extremist muslim area (as if the fact they are Arab Muslim excuses it whereas if they were say African or Asian or European than they wouldn't act as such) comment so thus is extremely salient.

[Jingthing]

The rabbi might meet his match is he stepped up in pattaya beach after dark.

We should be so lucky. May he burn in hell but wait, religious Jews don't believe in hell but apparently more like an eternal washing machine ... how hot can that water get.

Never mind!

[Scott]

Please stay on the topic, which isn't Islam or Muslims. At least not as near as I can figure.

[Lissos]

Tell that to the 20% of people who are muslim citizens of Israel.

Tell them what?

[Steely Dan]

Tell that to the 20% of people who are muslim citizens of Israel.

Tell them what?

Perhaps tell them they have freedom to vote, freedom of religion and freedom to choose a partner of either gender, not withstanding the actions of one lunatic. But as per usual some esteemed members extrapolate the views and actions of one insane individual to represent the views of the whole nation, which makes as much sense as arguing Anders Breivik represented Norwegian society. It is also particularly rich coming from those who conflate criticism of Islam with criticism of all Muslims, talk about having ones cake and eating it.

[samran]

Tell that to the 20% of people who are muslim citizens of Israel.

Tell them what?

Perhaps tell them they have freedom to vote, freedom of religion and freedom to choose a partner of either gender, not withstanding the actions of one lunatic. But as per usual some esteemed members extrapolate the views and actions of one insane individual to represent the views of the whole nation, which makes as much sense as arguing Anders Breivik represented Norwegian society. It is also particularly rich coming from those who conflate criticism of Islam with criticism of all Muslims, talk about having ones cake and eating it.

I will cut and paste your quote each time someone calls for the mass deportation or banning of immigration. I'll be busy.

[Neeranam]

This is stupid - like having an orange march through a Catholic area.

They don't deserve stabbing but should get their bottoms smacked.

[Jingthing]

This is stupid - like having an orange march through a Catholic area.

They don't deserve stabbing but should get their bottoms smacked.

Is that a threat or a promise?

Cheeky.

Actually they took pains to avoid religious areas.

Next ...

Edited August 2, 2015 by Jingthing

[Lissos]

I still don't know what Samran wants Israel's 20% Muslims to be told.

[Neeranam]

I still don't know what Samran wants Israel's 20% Muslims to be told.

Ask him in a PM - nothing to do with this thread

[Jingthing]

One the fundamentalist nutjob's stabbing victims has now died in hospital.

16 year old girl named Shira Banki.

Some may disagree that this is worth noting but she did not identify as a GLBT person but instead attended the event to show support for her friends.

This is typical at Gay Pride events ... there are many supporters and friends.

Well, now there really is no doubt. He'll go away for life.

Mistakes like this happen everywhere. Letting people go who shouldn't be let go and keeping people locked up who shouldn't be locked up.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Jingthing