Which Fish And Plants To Use In A Pond

[thedi]

I live in a small village about 50 kn from Khon Kaen. I have a house with a garden and there is a pond in my garden of about 1 rai. The water is 2 - 3 meter deap. There is a wall around, so up to now, I never had 'pla dook' or snakes from the fields in my pond.

I want to use this pond for swimming, in addition I like lotus and I would like to plant some of them too.

When I made this pond about 3 years ago, I released about 500 small fishes which I got from a firsh farm. I selected the ones which looked nice - which means had a red or orange coloring.

Now this fish grew bigger, they are up to 2 kilos now. They dig in the ground and make the water very muddy. You can not see anything only 10 cm deap in the water. Beside that they eat any plants that I plant within hours.

So now I plan to pump all the water out of this pond and to aly out the ground with slabs of sandstone which I can find in the region and then start again with new water in the next rain season.

The banks of the pond are not steep and I plan to plant lotus there, so there will be just normal dirt at the banks, the sandstone slabs will be just in the deep parts of the pond.

I would be interested in any hints about which fish I should use this time. They should

- eat insect larves (moskitos)

- let at least some of my lotus live

- NOT make the water muddy

Also hints about what water plants to use. I dont want to have 'heu kan' (a kind of mussels which itch when you get in contact with them) or leeches which are commen around here.

I am very thankful for any ideas

Thedi

PS: when I want to eat fish, I buy it in the market, hence this is no concern.

[thedi]

Does anybody know where I could find some infomation about fishes suitable for a pond as mentioned above?

Universities, Argiculture Schools? Any hints or contact addresses would be welcome.

Thedi

[RamdomChances]

To be honest mate I have no idea, not really sure that your idea is that viable

[Nam Kao]

I heard pirhana fish are quite swimmer freindly

[chownah]

Generally speaking the water you want in raising fish is not the best for swimming. For swimming you want the least amount of living stuff in the water....for many fish you want the most amount of living stuff in the water. I think that this will be a problem to one degree or another depending on the fish.....if fish were really compatible with swimming then I think that you would see alot of swimming pools with fish in them as it would be beautiful and fun while swimming....but I've never seen that.

Chownah

[thedi]

Well, I do not think abaout a swimming pool kind of pond.

Just a pond where the water is reasonably clear, so I can

go in for a swim.

Currently the water is so muddy, that I can not see my hand

in the water if I put I more then 6 cm deep in the water.

Other ponds around there have 'dark' water, much clearer

them mine, which is 'white'.

You can see my pond with google earts:

16° 09’ 23” N

102° 33´ 11” E

Thanks for any help

Thedi

[khunandy]

Well, I do not think abaout a swimming pool kind of pond.

Just a pond where the water is reasonably clear, so I can

go in for a swim.

Currently the water is so muddy, that I can not see my hand

in the water if I put I more then 6 cm deep in the water.

Other ponds around there have 'dark' water, much clearer

them mine, which is 'white'.

You can see my pond with google earts:

16° 09’ 23” N

102° 33´ 11” E

Thanks for any help

Thedi

Hi Thedi,

I had a look on Google and it seems like quite a big pond if yours is the muddy one.

My new pond is about the same although with the amount of rain and fresh earthworks I am not suprised. The wife mentioned we could add some lime to the water to clear it up and I have heard this before but I am not too bothered for a while but I read an article from an Australian Aquaculture site and there was a few paragraphs about muddy water.

The article is related to Yabbie (freshwater crayfish) farming where muddy water is desirable to protect the yabbies from Birds etc.

This article also advises adding lime (50kg to 2000 cubic metres) to the water to eliminate the suspended matter (mud) although if you have bottom feeding , burrowing fish I guess you are rowing up the creek in a barb wire canoe

START

Although muddy dams are an advantage for Yabby farming (see below), many dams are too muddy with clay. The Department of Fisheries of the thermocline and, therefore, the area of favourable dam-bed could be increased by reducing the muddiness, somewhat. We know how to do this in theory (by liming, see below) but the technique needs to be researched on dams for fine tuning. It has other benefits, too.

Why do yabbies do so well in muddy dams?

Crayfish have a great instinctive fear of bird predators (e.g., shags or cormorants). During daylight hours crayfish in clear water are very vulnerable to shags and are inactive in hiding places. However, the muddy water in most dams provides 24 hour nighttime light conditions on the bed of a dam, so shags can't see to hunt there and crayfish are active during the daytime. Crayfish don't need to see to feed; they can do it by touch, smell and taste. Underwater darkness in muddy dams is the reason why yabbies can be harvested so readily with baited traps during the daytime.

Why are some dams muddier than others?

Clay turbidity, as muddy water is called, is due to small particles of clay suspended in the water. These "colloidal" particles have electrical (negative) charges so they repel each other (like the same poles of two magnets) and don't settle out by clumping together. Some clays are finer than others; red montmorillinite gives much more turbid dams than white kaolin. However, the major factor controlling clay turbidity is salinity; the more saline the water, the clearer the dam water will be; the suspended clay particles are neutralized by the positively charged salt "ions" dissolved in the water. Basically, this is why dams towards the salinized bottoms of valleys in the wheatbelt tend to be clearer.

Why are some dams muddy in winter and clearer in summer?

The salinity of all dams increases over summer as the water evaporates as a gas (water vapour), leaving behind the dissolved salts (stock drinking and seepage removes both water and salts). Increasing salinity drops out (flocculates) the clay turbidity. When the dams overflow in winter, salts are diluted and flushed out by lower salinity inflow so the dam salinity drops- to the inflow salinity if the dam overflows for long enough- and the dam goes turbid again. FINISH

I dont know if it will affect the fish but here is what they have to say but I will put the address at the end, it may help. Why not try using the recommended dosage of 10mg/L to a bathtub, throw a couple of fish in and see if they are alive in the morning

Let me know how you get on so I dont kill my fish unnecessarily

http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/docs/aq/aq001/aq001Page04.php?0309

The website at fish.wa.gov.au comes in handy as Western Australia and also Queensland have very similar ponds (dams/soaks) as Northern Thailand.

Hope this helps

Khun Andy

[thedi]

Thanks Khun Andy for this very good informations.

When I build my house, my workmens usually put water

from the pond in their tubs which they used to carry concret.

The next morning the muddy water from the pond was very

clear in this tubs and on the botton was a very thin yellow

deposit.

This 'experiment' would suggest that the tip of using lime

would clear the water - so I have no idea for how long.

On the other hand I rememeber that cement is quite

poisonouse for plants and fish. I have a small pond fully

coated with concrete in front of the house, just 3 x 3 m

and 60 cm deep. When it was finished I filled it with water

right away and put some fish from the pond in it. This fish

started to die after two or three days. Local people told me

to put a lot of banana leaves in it for a week, which I did.

But only for about 5 days, because after that there where

thousends of mosquit larve in the water. I changed then the

water and put in new fish: smaller ones that I bought on a

market, th kind they are selling to kids. They are still there.

I also tried lotus in the small pond in pots. I guess

they would need more earth. When I used lotus flower fertiliser

they grow nice, but the water got dirty and the fish got sick.

Right now I am still in Switzerland.

I will go back to Thailand on October 6 and then may

try some 30 kg of cement in the pond. The pond is not full this

year, because there was very littel rain in Khon Kaen.

My guess is there are about 1000 to 1500 qm of water.

Do you think this is about the right dose?

Not killing the fish but clearing the water some.

Or is cement not the right thing? Then where could I find

lime in Thailand?

Regards

Thedi

[chownah]

Places that sell fertilizer for farmers might have lime. I have never heard that cement is bad for plants...we have made alot of concrete in building our house and the place where we wash out the wheelbarrow and the tools seems to have not suffered from this....the grass growing there seems just fine.

Chownah

[khunandy]

Thanks Khun Andy for this very good informations.

When I build my house, my workmens usually put water

from the pond in their tubs which they used to carry concret.

The next morning the muddy water from the pond was very

clear in this tubs and on the botton was a very thin yellow

deposit.

This 'experiment' would suggest that the tip of using lime

would clear the water - so I have no idea for how long.

On the other hand I rememeber that cement is quite

poisonouse for plants and fish. I have a small pond fully

coated with concrete in front of the house, just 3 x 3 m

and 60 cm deep. When it was finished I filled it with water

right away and put some fish from the pond in it. This fish

started to die after two or three days. Local people told me

to put a lot of banana leaves in it for a week, which I did.

But only for about 5 days, because after that there where

thousends of mosquit larve in the water. I changed then the

water and put in new fish: smaller ones that I bought on a

market, th kind they are selling to kids. They are still there.

I also tried lotus in the small pond in pots. I guess

they would need more earth. When I used lotus flower fertiliser

they grow nice, but the water got dirty and the fish got sick.

Right now I am still in Switzerland.

I will go back to Thailand on October 6 and then may

try some 30 kg of cement in the pond. The pond is not full this

year, because there was very littel rain in Khon Kaen.

My guess is there are about 1000 to 1500 qm of water.

Do you think this is about the right dose?

Not killing the fish but clearing the water some.

Or is cement not the right thing? Then where could I find

lime in Thailand?

Regards

Thedi

Hi Thedi,

I would suggest lime not cement, I have been told by the wife that it is available and I will check it out some more and let you know. Australians sometimes treat their bore water with lime before domestic use , something to do with Ph levels etc.

Good luck and remember the Australian Farming websites have good relative information regarding water treatments, ponds and aquaculture etc. As a dry country water is not taken for granted.

We will have to come for a pond party when you have achieved your goals

Khun Andy

[Crushdepth]

Re. liming your could have a look at the article Aquaculture Fundamentals: The use of lime, gypsum, alum and potassium permanganate in water quality management. This article comes from Aquaculture Asia Magazine, electronic version is free.

[lannarebirth]

Here, near Chiang Mai, many people plant Morning Glory (pak boong) in their fish ponds. The fish use it for shade, I believe they can eat it too, and of course, you can certainly eat it yourself.

[thedi]

Thanks for all the help.

I googled myself a bit and found a lot of informations. I was not so successful before because I did not know the right terms in english to google for (I am Swiss).

It seams that I have two problems.

First the fish: I selected fish wich looked nice in the fish farm, nice meaning red or orange color and not hurting each other: i.e. no predators. The worst which make water muddy: 'common carp, goldfish, and bullheads'. I guess I got this kind of fish. The recommendation is: 'this kind of fish must be eliminated'.

Second: when I let the catapilar dig the pond, I let him put the dirt around the pond so all rain water will go into the pond. The first year there where nearly no plants growing, because the filled up earth was no good and contained no seeds. So rain washed some of the dirt back in the pond. Naturally it washed the most easy to dissolve parts and that was fine clay particles.

Now the ground of the pond is about 50 cm of swampy clay that is half water - half clay. This is where the fish dig for food.

In the last two years, I planted grass and used a lot of bullshit as fertiliser around the pond - actually my gardener did it, I just told him to do it ;-). The environment around the pond is green and healthy. So this source of clay should be under control by now.

Hence my problem remains:

- Too much fish of the wrong kind

- Too much clay on the ground of the pond.

So my plan looks like this:

1. pump out all the water

2. get rid of the swampy clay and all the fish

3. make a new bed with sandstone plates which I can find in the region and fill up the border with good earth. This will make it easier to catch fish, because now they just go down in the swampy clay when we throw a net.

4. put in new water, plant reed, 'puk bung', lotus and others at the borders of the pond (as wave-breackers for less erosion) and use less, other kinds and much smaller fish, including predatory fish as well.

If the water will be muddy again, I still can use limestone, gypson or hay as suggested in some places. But I guess this will not be necessary, because other ponds around there to not have my problem.

Again many thanks for all your recommendations

Thedi

[TBWG]

[

In the last two years, I planted grass and used a lot of bullshit as fertiliser around the pond - actually my gardener did it, I just told him to do it ;-).

Hi thedi

If you need anymore B******t I suggest you send your gardener to the Farang Connection they have more than enough for everyone

TBWG

[Tim207]

Thanks for all the help.

3. make a new bed with sandstone plates which I can find in the region and fill up the border with good earth. This will make it easier to catch fish, because now they just go down in the swampy clay when we throw a net.

Thedi

Not sure why you want to use slabs rather than gravel. Gravel would be much cheaper and easier to work with. If you are worried about the gravel sinking into the mud you could use a silt screen fabric to line the bottom and put the stone on top. The stone slabs may also sink over time and you would have a hel_l of a mess trying to redig if needed.

[mobile69]

The worst which make water muddy: 'common carp, goldfish, and bullheads'. I guess I got this kind of fish. The recommendation is: 'this kind of fish must be eliminated'.

Do you know the Thai names for suitable fish? We inherited a fish pond on the land we've just finished our house. For the last 2 years, come rain or shine the pond's been cloudy. There are some fish, not sure what. If we take those out, what fish suitable for eating & not making the water cloudy should we stock it with?

Edited September 28, 2006 by mobile69

[thedi]

The worst which make water muddy: 'common carp, goldfish, and bullheads'.

Do you know the Thai names for suitable fish?

...

, what fish suitable for eating & not making the water cloudy should we stock it with?

?????? (Pla Nin or Pla Nil) is neither a carp nor a goldfish nor a bullhead. So it may be the right thing for you. The following is from http://www.thai-language.com/id/133259#def2

Tilapia nilotica or Nile tilapia. Imported from Africa and profitably farmed throughout Thailand, Thai-strain Nile tilapia grows to a good size with dark, scaly skin and is considered one of Thailand's staple food fish

I googled it a bit (but not too profound) and there is no mention of muddy water. But maybe you should check that some more ;-)

Btw. if you try them, would you please tell me how the muddyness of your pond was affected. I may use them too.

Regards

Thedi

[thedi]

3. make a new bed with sandstone plates which I can find in the region and fill up the border with good earth. This will make it easier to catch fish, because now they just go down in the swampy clay when we throw a net.

Not sure why you want to use slabs rather than gravel. Gravel would be much cheaper and easier to work with. If you are worried about the gravel sinking into the mud you could use a silt screen fabric to line the bottom and put the stone on top. The stone slabs may also sink over time and you would have a hel_l of a mess trying to redig if needed.

Your idea is very good, because it has tha added advantage that gravel is usually from lime mountains in Thailand, which may work a bit like gypson or lime recommended to bind floating clay particles.

But...

Where would I find a silt screen fabric to line the bottom in Khon Kaen?

How long would it last and what would it cost?

Has anybody any experiances with suich silt screen fabric?

Regards

Thedi

[Crushdepth]

2. get rid of the swampy clay and all the fish

3. make a new bed with sandstone plates which I can find in the region and fill up the border with good earth. This will make it easier to catch fish, because now they just go down in the swampy clay when we throw a net.

Suggest leaving the clay in place - put the new layer over the top (you could also use sand). The clay is what stops the water seeping out of your pond.

[Tim207]

Where would I find a silt screen fabric to line the bottom in Khon Kaen?

How long would it last and what would it cost?

Has anybody any experiances with suich silt screen fabric?

Regards

Thedi

I don't know exactly where you wold find it but an excavation company should know. I have seen it around Thailand so I know it is available. It is usually a woven plastic fabric and is often used to prevent erosion around newly excavated areas. For instance, it is staked out in front of drainage culverts to prevent loose soil from washing in and clogging the pipe until the dirt has become more stable. As it is generally used as a temporary measure I don't know how long it would last but plastic protected by a layer of stone should last quite a long time before deteriorating enough to matter. Remember you are only trying to keep stones from sinking into the clay so it would have to be pretty far gone before that would happen. It is just a woven plastic so I would think it woould be fairly cheap but I don't know.

[thedi]

Where would I find a silt screen fabric to line the bottom in Khon Kaen?

It is usually a woven plastic fabric and is often used to prevent erosion around newly excavated areas.

If I can not find it, I may take this woven plastic things that are used as sun screens in flower shops or for car parks in many shopping centers; they come in green, blue or black. If they endure the sun and rain, they should endure my pond as well. An other alternative would be this blue moskitonet like plastic nets used to fence of ponds (so 'pla dook' can not wander away) or for rice harvests, but these are more expensive.

Next week I will go back to Thailand and then start with new fish cultures in separate places. I will not put young fish in the pond again, because I can not distinguish what they are while they are small.

Work on my pond will not start before December. I think I may use half cravel and half sandstone slabs - just to try out both aproches.

Thanks again for all the help, I will keep you informed of my experiances

Thedi

[Chris.B]

We have a garden pond which when we filled with water from our well was cloudy. I believe this was due to fine silt in the underground water. One of the family gave us a transparent, glassy like rock which when immersed in the water for a period of time reduced the cloudyness. My wife told me this rock is called San Som and it is used by Thais to 'clean' the water in wells.

Anyone know what this San Som is ?

Edited October 5, 2006 by Chris.B

[RamdomChances]

Anyone know what this San Som is ?

Its some sort of rock crystal used as a natural deoderant as well (you can buy big chunks of it). Yes apparently it is used for helping make water clear as I've only just found out.

[chownah]

Could this be alum?...my wife says it is not a rock because it can "melt". I seem to remember that alum can be used as a floculant....meaning it can cause tiny particle suspended in water to clump together so that they will settle out.

Chownah

Edited October 6, 2006 by chownah

[RamdomChances]

^ yea it does melt, I have some for use as a natural doderent, you just rub it under your arms when having a shower, eventualy it just goes all smooth Takes ages to melt though, I mean like a fist size lump (and I've got little hands) would last you years

Edited October 6, 2006 by RamdomChances

[Chris.B]

Could this be alum?...my wife says it is not a rock because it can "melt". I seem to remember that alum can be used as a floculant....meaning it can cause tiny particle suspended in water to clump together so that they will settle out.

Chownah

That is how it appears to act.

[thedi]

I am interested in 'San Som'.

Can anybody post its name in Thai letters?

Where can you buy it and in which quantities is it sold? My big pond contains about 2000 qm of water.

With the correct wirting in Thai script I may find it in sufficient quantities. I may try it in a smaller pond first to try it out, it may be harmful for fish and or plants.

Thedi

[thedi]

In the German wikipedia I found an entry for Alum (Alaun in German) which mentions that it is used in Thailand to clear muddy water and as a deoderant.

I attached a picture from http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaun

Thedi

[RamdomChances]

^ yep that looks about right, it's avalible all over the place. I'll try and find out a bit about priced. Not sure on the economic viablilty of it for a large pond