Knife attacks kill 2 people at central Sweden Ikea store

Asheron · August 14, 2015

As ever, this topic has degenerated into the usual "Islam is evil and all Muslims want to kill us or force us to live under strict Sharia law' rants from the usual suspects.

Even though the authorities have not, as far as I am aware, stated their religion.

Even though, statistically, they are as, if not more, likely to be Christian.

Even though the authorities have categorically stated that there is absolutely no evidence that this attack was politically or religiously motivated.

Of course, the usual suspects simply dismiss all this as 'lies' and 'covering up the truth!'

They would rather believe the people who, among other obvious rubbish, published as true the absurd claim from an idiot American that Birmingham had been completely taken over and was now 100% Muslim!

Why do these refugees come to Europe rather than Saudi Arabia? Maybe it's because many of them are Christian!

A little bit of research will show that there are many refugees in Saudi, but as most of them are there illegally the Saudi government does not count them as refugees.

Maybe you should take a while and read the Cairo declaration[1]. If you don't feel like reading everything i can help you by telling that you can entirely skip articles 1-23 and only read articles 24 and 25 and then you might have a good idea why Saudi Arabia is such a shithole for christians (refugee or not).

[1] http://www.oic-oci.org/english/article/human.htm

Asheron · August 14, 2015

Magazines like Front Page and Dispatch International have stated anti immigration in general and anti Islam in particular agendas.

To claim they are independent, objective sources is the act of the desperate.

Do you that kind of view against people who are anti-nazism and communism? Or is it only because of islam? Because surely you know that islam is an ideology that in detail says how a society should be and shouldn't be.

Asheron · August 14, 2015

<snip>
Swedish security agencies have not made the link to Islamic extremism
Like any government department, their official spokesmen have the government's hand up their bottom moving their lips.

I fail to see why the Swedish government would deliberately misinform the Swedish public of an attack by Islamic extremists, for sure the facts will be disclosed in Court. However, Asheron, posted above that a Swedish media outlet, Aftonbladet “did something as rare as unicorns, they printed very early on that they both were Christians”. There have been other claims that the attacker who committed the murders has an Eritrean Christian surname. We will soon be informed whether these claims are factual or not.

Various political parties had made errors of judgement on 'illegal migrants', but to then turn around and support far right political ideology is, IMO, also an error of judgement for the future of Western nations' societies.

There is something called "förundersökningssekretess" in Sweden which basicly means everything the police is doing around this case is classified. That classified "stamp" is usually entirely lifted when something goes to trial BUT they (government) can if they want classify some of what is in the reports.

Regarding the "beheaded or not"... there has been quite a fuzz/buzz in social media why the police are neither confirming NOR denying such a thing. The reason for the fuzz/buzz is because swedish police are generally very quick on either confirming or denying something spread on social media regarding "high attention crimes". One such case was the "arson" (which wasn't an arson, it was an accident) against the mosque in Uppsala when police very quickly denied (same day) that a deep fryer had been the reason for the fire in the mosque.

simple1 · August 14, 2015

<snip>
Swedish security agencies have not made the link to Islamic extremism
Like any government department, their official spokesmen have the government's hand up their bottom moving their lips.

I fail to see why the Swedish government would deliberately misinform the Swedish public of an attack by Islamic extremists, for sure the facts will be disclosed in Court. However, Asheron, posted above that a Swedish media outlet, Aftonbladet “did something as rare as unicorns, they printed very early on that they both were Christians”. There have been other claims that the attacker who committed the murders has an Eritrean Christian surname. We will soon be informed whether these claims are factual or not.

Various political parties had made errors of judgement on 'illegal migrants', but to then turn around and support far right political ideology is, IMO, also an error of judgement for the future of Western nations' societies.

There is something called "förundersökningssekretess" in Sweden which basicly means everything the police is doing around this case is classified. That classified "stamp" is usually entirely lifted when something goes to trial BUT they (government) can if they want classify some of what is in the reports.

Regarding the "beheaded or not"... there has been quite a fuzz/buzz in social media why the police are neither confirming NOR denying such a thing. The reason for the fuzz/buzz is because swedish police are generally very quick on either confirming or denying something spread on social media regarding "high attention crimes". One such case was the "arson" (which wasn't an arson, it was an accident) against the mosque in Uppsala when police very quickly denied (same day) that a deep fryer had been the reason for the fire in the mosque.

Thanks for the clarification on security classification & the media, very different to the allegations made by some of a deliberate cover up by government i.e. usual right wing conspiracy theory nonsense

ABCer · August 15, 2015

<snip>

The only thing that is moronic and disgusting is defending the disgusting and indefensible.

I challenge you, or anyone else, to show where I, or anyone else, has done that anywhere in this, or any other, topic.

No one is making any attempt to defend what these men have done.

What I, and others, have tried to do is show that innocent people should not be labelled as murderers and terrorists because of this horrific attack.

No doubt the ignorant and prejudiced find that 'disgusting and indefensible,' but no rational person does.

I have skimmed the thread and a few of the links, so I may have missed something here...... The alleged killer is an Eritrean migrant who was just refused residency. Looking at the facts given, if one was to speculate, the most reasonable conjecture would be that the perp is a disgruntled Christian migrant, since Eritrean Christians outnumber Eritrean Muslims.Eritrea, with a GDP less than what Donald Trump has in cash, and with one of the worst human rights records in the world, is certainly a country that one would expect a person would be glad to never set foot in again.

To assume he is Muslim, even before his nationality was known, and especially after it was revealed he is Eritrean (since statistically he's more likely to be Christian), just shows what the beying hounds are like. They need to find a Muslim to blame.

It really does not matter whether perpetrators are Muslims, Christians or non-believers.

The issue at stake is:

- they are illegal migrants or were refused permanent residency in a foreign country

- they are from Eritrea where violence is commonplace

- they are different from Swedes in every possible respect

- they do things Swedes do not do to each other

- they and their activities are covered by secrecy to protect them and people responsible for their being there

- they are from Eritrea and statistically they can be Muslims, Christians, non-believers, communists, terrorists or just good people

Unfortunately statistics can not prove what they were but their deeds do - they are killers.

Unfortunately in the atmosphere of secrecy people have no choice but assume to which group they belong to.

Unfortunately when they contribute to their host countries - their contribution is nothing needed or wanted.

Unfortunately there are many people including themselves believing that the World owes them something.

Unfortunately when there appear people who disagree - a seven times seven seahorses push and pull and neigh and kick their hoofs as if they are actually arguing with baying hounds.

Unfortunately having been compared with many others to baying hounds I find it necessary to appeal to neighing horses to hold their horses unless they are also disgruntled Eritreans.

Steely Dan · August 15, 2015

<snip>

Swedish security agencies have not made the link to Islamic extremism

Like any government department, their official spokesmen have the government's hand up their bottom moving their lips.

I fail to see why the Swedish government would deliberately misinform the Swedish public of an attack by Islamic extremists, for sure the facts will be disclosed in Court. However, Asheron, posted above that a Swedish media outlet, Aftonbladet “did something as rare as unicorns, they printed very early on that they both were Christians”. There have been other claims that the attacker who committed the murders has an Eritrean Christian surname. We will soon be informed whether these claims are factual or not.

Various political parties had made errors of judgement on 'illegal migrants', but to then turn around and support far right political ideology is, IMO, also an error of judgement for the future of Western nations' societies.

There is something called "förundersökningssekretess" in Sweden which basicly means everything the police is doing around this case is classified. That classified "stamp" is usually entirely lifted when something goes to trial BUT they (government) can if they want classify some of what is in the reports.

Regarding the "beheaded or not"... there has been quite a fuzz/buzz in social media why the police are neither confirming NOR denying such a thing. The reason for the fuzz/buzz is because swedish police are generally very quick on either confirming or denying something spread on social media regarding "high attention crimes". One such case was the "arson" (which wasn't an arson, it was an accident) against the mosque in Uppsala when police very quickly denied (same day) that a deep fryer had been the reason for the fire in the mosque.

Aside from normal police practice for disseminating information there is some information that it is illegal to collate (correct me if I'm wrong), such as prison population broken down by either religion or ethnicity. Some things are deemed completely out of bounds for discussion even. You may find the following of interest, it is a blog created by a Swede who emigrated to the U.S, he backs up all his opinions and assertions to articles in the Swedish media. A little more difficult for some of our esteemed members to dismiss based on a one sentence summary written in Wikipedia. Thus when he talks about Swedish no go Zones he is translating directly from a Swedish police spokesman. The main focus is of cause the out of control immigration which is threatening to change Sweden into something unrecognizable from the third wealthiest Country in the world which it once was.

http://swedenreport.org

When I was a child, Sweden was a dull yet very safe place to live. Yes, there was a heavy blanket of socialism and collectivist values covering everything, but there was a core of pragmatism beneath the redness. The intention and goal was always to benefit the citizens, even though they went about things in a backwards manner.

Today, it’s as if the inmates are running the asylum. The politicians are participating in a chicken race of “goodness” where everybody tries to one-up each other in caring for the citizens of OTHER countries while Swedish retirees, school children, handicapped and other vulnerable categories of people are thorougly ignored. Violence is exploding. Jihadist Trojan horses are flowing through the porous border along with the tens of thousands ID-less refugees.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Steely Dan

Seastallion · August 15, 2015

<snip>

The only thing that is moronic and disgusting is defending the disgusting and indefensible.

I challenge you, or anyone else, to show where I, or anyone else, has done that anywhere in this, or any other, topic.

No one is making any attempt to defend what these men have done.

What I, and others, have tried to do is show that innocent people should not be labelled as murderers and terrorists because of this horrific attack.

No doubt the ignorant and prejudiced find that 'disgusting and indefensible,' but no rational person does.

I have skimmed the thread and a few of the links, so I may have missed something here...... The alleged killer is an Eritrean migrant who was just refused residency. Looking at the facts given, if one was to speculate, the most reasonable conjecture would be that the perp is a disgruntled Christian migrant, since Eritrean Christians outnumber Eritrean Muslims.Eritrea, with a GDP less than what Donald Trump has in cash, and with one of the worst human rights records in the world, is certainly a country that one would expect a person would be glad to never set foot in again.

To assume he is Muslim, even before his nationality was known, and especially after it was revealed he is Eritrean (since statistically he's more likely to be Christian), just shows what the beying hounds are like. They need to find a Muslim to blame.

It really does not matter whether perpetrators are Muslims, Christians or non-believers.

The issue at stake is:

- they are illegal migrants or were refused permanent residency in a foreign country

- they are from Eritrea where violence is commonplace

- they are different from Swedes in every possible respect

- they do things Swedes do not do to each other

- they and their activities are covered by secrecy to protect them and people responsible for their being there

- they are from Eritrea and statistically they can be Muslims, Christians, non-believers, communists, terrorists or just good people

Unfortunately statistics can not prove what they were but their deeds do - they are killers.

Unfortunately in the atmosphere of secrecy people have no choice but assume to which group they belong to.

Unfortunately when they contribute to their host countries - their contribution is nothing needed or wanted.

Unfortunately there are many people including themselves believing that the World owes them something.

Unfortunately when there appear people who disagree - a seven times seven seahorses push and pull and neigh and kick their hoofs as if they are actually arguing with baying hounds.

Unfortunately having been compared with many others to baying hounds I find it necessary to appeal to neighing horses to hold their horses unless they are also disgruntled Eritreans.

You're right, it doesn't matter. But you are back pedaling.

Post #7 (Pedro01) set the scene, "So given the lack of names or descriptions of the perps,I would guess the attackers were Muslims, right?", which attitude you continued in post #9 (" their names would have been a giveaway.") and confirmed in your post #19 where you proclaimed your "nose was still good" and ""When perps are not underage, the victims are dead, why protect names of apprehended killers?

To make people assume they are Muslims even in some rare case when they are not! Counterproductive!"

My point in saying that they were more likely to be Christians is because the haters, including you, despite the lesser likelihood, immediately assumed the perpetrators to be Muslim.

simple1 · August 15, 2015

Some info from Bra, Sweden's official crime statistics site, relating to hate crimes in 2014…

Afrophobia 1,075 – 17%

Anti-Roma 287 – 5%

Islamophobia 492 – 8%

Anti-Semitism 267 – 4%

Christianphobia 321 – 6%

More info:

https://www.bra.se/download/18.3f29640714dde2233b1d670a/1439277572809/2015_Hatecrime_2014.pdf

Asheron · August 15, 2015

There is something called "förundersökningssekretess" in Sweden which basicly means everything the police is doing around this case is classified. That classified "stamp" is usually entirely lifted when something goes to trial BUT they (government) can if they want classify some of what is in the reports.
Regarding the "beheaded or not"... there has been quite a fuzz/buzz in social media why the police are neither confirming NOR denying such a thing. The reason for the fuzz/buzz is because swedish police are generally very quick on either confirming or denying something spread on social media regarding "high attention crimes". One such case was the "arson" (which wasn't an arson, it was an accident) against the mosque in Uppsala when police very quickly denied (same day) that a deep fryer had been the reason for the fire in the mosque.

Aside from normal police practice for disseminating information there is some information that it is illegal to collate (correct me if I'm wrong), such as prison population broken down by either religion or ethnicity. Some things are deemed completely out of bounds for discussion even. You may find the following of interest, it is a blog created by a Swede who emigrated to the U.S, he backs up all his opinions and assertions to articles in the Swedish media. A little more difficult for some of our esteemed members to dismiss based on a one sentence summary written in Wikipedia. Thus when he talks about Swedish no go Zones he is translating directly from a Swedish police spokesman. The main focus is of cause the out of control immigration which is threatening to change Sweden into something unrecognizable from the third wealthiest Country in the world which it once was.
http://swedenreport.org

When I was a child, Sweden was a dull yet very safe place to live. Yes, there was a heavy blanket of socialism and collectivist values covering everything, but there was a core of pragmatism beneath the redness. The intention and goal was always to benefit the citizens, even though they went about things in a backwards manner.

Today, it’s as if the inmates are running the asylum. The politicians are participating in a chicken race of “goodness” where everybody tries to one-up each other in caring for the citizens of OTHER countries while Swedish retirees, school children, handicapped and other vulnerable categories of people are thorougly ignored. Violence is exploding. Jihadist Trojan horses are flowing through the porous border along with the tens of thousands ID-less refugees.

I have before read some of that link you posted and what i read is accurate for the normal Swede. It's of course not accurate for all the politicians and journalists that live in basicly homogenous swedish areas and if they happen to have an immigrant as neighbour he is then filthy rich IT-entreprenour or something like that. The Sweden just 15-20 years ago is gone and will never ever coming back... and that has made me dislike Sweden and it's population for doing that to the degree that i wish i could somehow get a crap load of money and never ever have to put my foot there again.

You just can't explain to someone not living in Sweden* how it is now. You just can't. And if you actually try your hardest to explain they either call you a racist, fascist, nazi or islamophobe (even though nothing was said about muslims nor islam) or a combination of those.

*and by living in Sweden i mean areas such as Haninge, Botkyrka, Kista, Tensta, Akalla, Alby etc.

Asheron · August 15, 2015

Some info from Bra, Sweden's official crime statistics site, relating to hate crimes in 2014…

Afrophobia 1,075 – 17%

Anti-Roma 287 – 5%

Islamophobia 492 – 8%

Anti-Semitism 267 – 4%

Christianphobia 321 – 6%

More info:

https://www.bra.se/download/18.3f29640714dde2233b1d670a/1439277572809/2015_Hatecrime_2014.pdf

You know that they count stuff like "i don't like hijabs" as "islamophobia" right? An estimate is that there are about 20 000 jews left in Sweden (less than buddhist, mind you) and a very low estimate of 500 000 muslims. In other words there are ~25 times more muslims than jews in Sweden yet there are only double the amount of "islamophobia" than "anti-semitism"... quite clear who has it the toughtest in Sweden when it comes to hate crime.

And there is no category for hate crimes against ethnic swedes as the former JK[1] clearly ruled that swedes can't be target of hate crime in Sweden regardless of what the perpetrator said or did.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_Justice_(Sweden)

Asheron · August 15, 2015

Just wanted to give another "immigrant murders 3 people with knife" less than two years ago in Norway: http://www.svd.se/bussmorden-vacker-fragor

The circumstances to IKEA are quite like. The guy in the link i give had gotten an extradition order to Spain (because of Dublin treaty) which would have been executed "next day".

What i am asking myself (and many others): why is anyone even allowed to freely walk around in any country if they are to be extradited?

7by7 · August 15, 2015

<snip>

Why do these refugees come to Europe rather than Saudi Arabia? Maybe it's because many of them are Christian!

A little bit of research will show that there are many refugees in Saudi, but as most of them are there illegally the Saudi government does not count them as refugees.

Maybe you should take a while and read the Cairo declaration[1]. If you don't feel like reading everything i can help you by telling that you can entirely skip articles 1-23 and only read articles 24 and 25 and then you might have a good idea why Saudi Arabia is such a shithole for christians (refugee or not).

[1] http://www.oic-oci.org/english/article/human.htm

I am not denying that Saudi's human rights record is diabolical; which is the perfect answer to why many of these refugees/migrants prefer Europe instead; especially if they are Christian!

Magazines like Front Page and Dispatch International have stated anti immigration in general and anti Islam in particular agendas.

To claim they are independent, objective sources is the act of the desperate.

Do you that kind of view against people who are anti-nazism and communism? Or is it only because of islam? Because surely you know that islam is an ideology that in detail says how a society should be and shouldn't be.

I hold that view for all media which ignore and/or twist facts in order to push their own political ideology; whatever that ideology is.

Being anti Nazi or Communist is the same as being anti Islamic terrorism. It is not the same as branding an entire religion as evil. That is, after all, exactly what the Nazis did!

BTW, all ideologies, whether they be religious or political, say in detail how society should and should not be!

ABCer · August 15, 2015

You're right, it doesn't matter. But you are back pedaling.

I challenge you, or anyone else, to show where I, or anyone else, has done that anywhere in this, or any other, topic.

No one is making any attempt to defend what these men have done.

What I, and others, have tried to do is show that innocent people should not be labelled as murderers and terrorists because of this horrific attack.

No doubt the ignorant and prejudiced find that 'disgusting and indefensible,' but no rational person does.

I have skimmed the thread and a few of the links, so I may have missed something here...... The alleged killer is an Eritrean migrant who was just refused residency. Looking at the facts given, if one was to speculate, the most reasonable conjecture would be that the perp is a disgruntled Christian migrant, since Eritrean Christians outnumber Eritrean Muslims.Eritrea, with a GDP less than what Donald Trump has in cash, and with one of the worst human rights records in the world, is certainly a country that one would expect a person would be glad to never set foot in again.

To assume he is Muslim, even before his nationality was known, and especially after it was revealed he is Eritrean (since statistically he's more likely to be Christian), just shows what the beying hounds are like. They need to find a Muslim to blame.

It really does not matter whether perpetrators are Muslims, Christians or non-believers.