Tourist visa extension madness

[puukao]

it is very important to pay all fines....

you are in thailand on vacation!!! you must be rich!!! clearly you are not working or doing anything important!!!

just pay the fine and say thanks....

lol

[Matej]

it is very important to pay all fines....

you are in thailand on vacation!!! you must be rich!!! clearly you are not working or doing anything important!!!

just pay the fine and say thanks....

lol

Of course I'm rich, all farangs are rich, but everyone knows that ...

That's why I'm traveling to one of the best country in the world, Thailand, enjoy the first class service everywhere.

Azure seas, clean and green cities, untouched nature and kindness everywhere you look.

[Ajahnski]

"Is this real life? Do I really have to report my address when I move?"

Immigration Act.

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned.

"House Master" means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht to 10,000 Baht.

It is law but rarely enforced. Although immigration seem to be enforcing it more and more these days. When you arrive to stay at a hotel the hotel will inform immigration. If you stay at a private residence the "House Master" or "Owner" should inform immigration. If they don't the fine is up to 2,000 baht. So you got off lightly with 800 Baht.

This is a cleaner version than the original translation from the Thai gov't that I read. The version I read included a clause that mentioned renting a room. That little addition made the entire section read as though it applied to commercial transactions only. (I went to law school, and I know how to read laws.)

I got the same shakedown, but the Kantang immigration office would take care of the problem for 'only' 800 B. How nice of them! I told them they were corrupt and demanding a bribe, made a little scene to make them lose some face, and left. (BTW, my Thai wife was with me, and she was 100% in agreement that it was a shakedown. They got even though, and made problems for the entire dept at my school when we went to get our visa extensions.)

Also, there is no clear instruction to new foreigners about the 90 day report. It's almost as if they were trying to create situations where people would get in to trouble? Thankfully, those brave Thai gov't officials are willing to buck the system and 'take care of' problems at reduced rates!

[Matej]

"Is this real life? Do I really have to report my address when I move?"

Immigration Act.

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned.

"House Master" means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht to 10,000 Baht.

It is law but rarely enforced. Although immigration seem to be enforcing it more and more these days. When you arrive to stay at a hotel the hotel will inform immigration. If you stay at a private residence the "House Master" or "Owner" should inform immigration. If they don't the fine is up to 2,000 baht. So you got off lightly with 800 Baht.

This is a cleaner version than the original translation from the Thai gov't that I read. The version I read included a clause that mentioned renting a room. That little addition made the entire section read as though it applied to commercial transactions only. (I went to law school, and I know how to read laws.)

I got the same shakedown, but the Kantang immigration office would take care of the problem for 'only' 800 B. How nice of them! I told them they were corrupt and demanding a bribe, made a little scene to make them lose some face, and left. (BTW, my Thai wife was with me, and she was 100% in agreement that it was a shakedown. They got even though, and made problems for the entire dept at my school when we went to get our visa extensions.)

Also, there is no clear instruction to new foreigners about the 90 day report. It's almost as if they were trying to create situations where people would get in to trouble? Thankfully, those brave Thai gov't officials are willing to buck the system and 'take care of' problems at reduced rates!

and where did you get visa extension then?

Interesting is that they let you leave, especially your wife.

They didn't fine her, did some photo copies of her ID card for reduced price 2 thb per page?

btw, take care of problems at reduced rates in Thailand will still take at least 50 years ...

[chrisinth]

try and stay inside the parameters of the law.

According to some it's as simple as, if you cross the line (wherever that may be) you just pay the fine and forget about it.

But that is the point of what i originally wrote, except i forget about it and don't pay the fines.

[meltingpot2015]

try and stay inside the parameters of the law.

According to some it's as simple as, if you cross the line (wherever that may be) you just pay the fine and forget about it.

But that is the point of what i originally wrote, except i forget about it and don't pay the fines.

Only read your post #59. If you stay within the parameters of the law, then you would not be breaking the law, in which case there would be no fine.

But that is the point of what i originally wrote, except i forget about it ...

forget about what exactly? paying the fine?. But there wouldn't be a fine if you are within the parameters of the law.

[naboo]

My wife was fined in Kap Choeng immigration 800 Thb last week, because she did not report I am living in her house !!!! We have been married and lived together 8 years

Ii have been living in my wife's house for over two years. When I moved in, I made sure we reported to the local police (no immigration office in my province) and was amused that they had no idea what to do. Got me registered.

However, I think I am foul of the law as we have never reported my return to the address after hotels would have reported me as having stayed for short periods of time in other provinces in Thailand. Stupid law, but I might start following it to the letter just to amuse the local police - every week I spend a night in a hotel in another province as I don't want to drink and drive....

[mango66]

"Is this real life? Do I really have to report my address when I move?"

Immigration Act.

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned.

"House Master" means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht to 10,000 Baht.

It is law but rarely enforced. Although immigration seem to be enforcing it more and more these days. When you arrive to stay at a hotel the hotel will inform immigration. If you stay at a private residence the "House Master" or "Owner" should inform immigration. If they don't the fine is up to 2,000 baht. So you got off lightly with 800 Baht.

This is a cleaner version than the original translation from the Thai gov't that I read. The version I read included a clause that mentioned renting a room. That little addition made the entire section read as though it applied to commercial transactions only. (I went to law school, and I know how to read laws.)

I got the same shakedown, but the Kantang immigration office would take care of the problem for 'only' 800 B. How nice of them! I told them they were corrupt and demanding a bribe, made a little scene to make them lose some face, and left. (BTW, my Thai wife was with me, and she was 100% in agreement that it was a shakedown. They got even though, and made problems for the entire dept at my school when we went to get our visa extensions.)

Also, there is no clear instruction to new foreigners about the 90 day report. It's almost as if they were trying to create situations where people would get in to trouble? Thankfully, those brave Thai gov't officials are willing to buck the system and 'take care of' problems at reduced rates!

you were in a law school , where ?

and now you understand Thai law !! 5555

[Liquorice]

I doubt many people ever bother filing this report mainly because they don't know they should, and as the standard fine is 800 baht I doubt many will start. You were unlucky to get an IO who, for whatever reason, decided to apply the law.

Th IO did not applied the law, he illegally extorted an innocent foreigner of Bt 800 and I would be curious to see if OP got a receipt.

The point you made above that since the OP rented a room for 4 days he's considered master of the house if ridiculous, for two good reasons:

1, the master of the House is the person that is register as housemaster in the house book. he's the one responsible to report foreigners.

2. A short time room rental, often without a written contract, is not enough to make anyone "master of the house" and responsible for whatever immigration regulation.

The OP should have called with the home owner and have them fight between themselves. When Thai immigration do these kind of things is invariably to sting a foreigner, like an husband in the cases mentioned above.

Paz, you usually give good advice, but in this case your mistaken.

1, the master of the House is the person that is register as housemaster in the house book. he's the one responsible to report foreigners.

2. A short time room rental, often without a written contract, is not enough to make anyone "master of the house" and responsible for whatever

Section 4 of the Immigration Act, quote:

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

It's not actually clear from the OP's post whether he was fined for failing to complete a TM28 (change of address) which should be completed within 24 hours of moving, or the TM30 (alien residing at address)

What the OP needs to be aware of is that if he stays in registered hotels or guesthouses, they are responsible for reporting his address.

His only requirement is to put the address of the first hotel on his TM6 arrivals card.

That would be the normal kind of 'stay' for an average tourist.

If you stay in a hotel but then move to a privately rented, or even unrented accommodation, then he needs to report his change of address using a TM28 and the House Master (as defined above) needs to complete a TM30.

Unfortunately Thailand wants to know the whereabouts of all aliens at any given time. The inconsistency to apply the written law is down to each Immigration official, but if you want to avoid conflicts and fines, then follow the law.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If your going to visit and travel around a foreign Country then it's your responsibility to find out and follow the laws or suffer the consequences.

[Furryman]

So I guess as long as I don't stay anywhere for longer than 24 hours, I don't have to report my whereabouts at all...

[paz]

To not let anyone be confused by the wrong information given by Faz an elvjiaero. I'll state it again:

In the case the OP reported, the landlord failed to report presence to immigration, and he was fined illegally.

It is not an obligation of the foreigner - basically a tourist - to report presence when staying at hotels, guesthouses, or even generic rentals.

If I'm wrong in saying that I'll be happy to be corrected by a moderator or admin.

[elviajero]

To not let anyone be confused by the wrong information given by Faz an elvjiaero. I'll state it again:

In the case the OP reported, the landlord failed to report presence to immigration, and he was fined illegally.

It is not an obligation of the foreigner - basically a tourist - to report presence when staying at hotels, guesthouses, or even generic rentals.

If I'm wrong in saying that I'll be happy to be corrected by a moderator or admin.

No need Paz.

I have already stated that, following information not initially disclosed by the OP, as the Owner (landlord) lives at the property they are responsible for the TM30 and liable for the fine.

So I agree that the OP wasn't liable for the 800 baht fine IF the fine was for failure to submit a TM30. But as pointed out by Faz he could have been fined for 800 baht (max 2k) for failing to report his change of address which ALL foreigners, tourist or otherwise, are liable for. So either way he owed immigration at least 800 baht.

Neither I or Faz have said that foreigners are responsible for the TM30 when staying at hotels or guesthouses. Please clarify what a "generic rental" is?

A "tourist" is no different to anyone given temporary entry to stay in Thailand. Tourists must comply with section 37 and section 38 (if applicable) of the immigration act and are legally liable for penalties for failing to comply. They and those of us that live here should be thankful that immigration don't apply the letter of the law and enforce every infraction!

[elviajero]

Just to outline the stupidity of this ruling (TM30/TM28) as regards tourists, what would happen in this scenario:

The tourist (on a tourist visa as the OP was on) travels to Nakon Somewhere, arrives at 23:00 and books into a hotel.

First thing next morning, he goes to Nakon Somewhere immigration to extend his tourist visa for 30 days, giving the name of the hotel as his address.

Unless the law has changed, the hotel has until 12:00 to register the guest as staying at the hotel.

In the above case, the tourist's information would not be available to the immigration office. Both parties, hotel & tourist, are in the right, would immigration issue the 30 day extension?

Not sure what you're getting at Chris but they would get an extension without a problem. Immigration will take the address on the TM7 as the current address. The only problem would come if the address given was out of the area covered by Nakhon Somewhere.

A hotel has 24 hours to notify immigration.

[elviajero]

Can i ask you a serious question?

If you travel out of the country, say for 2 weeks, to see friends, who do you report to locally that you are doing this? (I realize you will be stamped out of the country)

When coming into the country, i assume you put your own address on the TM card and are stamped back into the country? The main question is who initializes the contact with immigration (or the police) that leads to these fines (if you are late in reporting)?

The reason that i ask is, mostly through work, during my time in Thailand i have traveled both inside the country and outside, for periods of more than 24 hours literally hundreds of times and have never come across this issue. This is not just relevant to where i am living now but to other provinces as well where i have resided.

I know different offices have their own policies, but to me, and people like me involved in traveling through work, we would never be out of the offices. I feel a bit perplexed at times regarding this as i do try and stay inside the parameters of the law.

When leaving the country you don't need to inform anyone. If you are returning to the same address you don't need to do anything with immigration as the TM6 covers it.

The owner or house-master of the property you are returning to should technically submit a new TM30 every time you return. I've read one report where an immigration office enforced this, but I'd say most offices won't bother if it's the same address. And technically you should report to the local police within 24 hours of arriving in the country, but I doubt many do and that doesn't seem to be enforced by immigration.

People seem to get caught out when applying for extensions or other visits to immigration offices. I don't believe immigration has the desire to chase people down. If you don't change address I wouldn't worry. The worst they could get you for would be failing to submit the TM30, if you're the house-master, and the standard fine seems to be 800 baht (max 2k).

If you travel within Thailand but retain the address given to immigration, then you don't need to inform immigration at all. The only thing you are supposed to do is inform the local police at the place you say at for more than 24 hours, but again I doubt many do and the police would likely not be interested.

[manfredtillmann]

been here 9 times now, never stated a 'proper' address on my entry card, just the name of the town i was travelling to. has not been a problem, not even last time with the guy at bkk who spent 10 minutes examining every page of my oz passport.

and no one every registred me as an 'alien' living with them here, other than perhaps the hotel i stayed in once.

still wondering what will happen next week when i apply for my 30 day extension...

[sandyf]

Well you have to...there's a form for this, but it's the first time i'm hearing of someone getting fined for not reporting... WAPITA!!

Kap Choeng Immigration has been given out fines for not reporting your address. Its the landlords responsibility not the renter to report and its a forum TM 30 that they use.

Good to know.

So if you traveling on your own, the first thing you have to do after landing is report your address, otherwise when you show up in immigration they will charge you ... And who cares if you are owner or not? No one ...

Welcome to crazyland and give us your money.

This comes up each time we go to Sri Ratcha immigration. They just give us the forms to fill in and nothing is said, doesn't normally become an issue.

[paz]

No need Paz.

I have already stated that, following information not initially disclosed by the OP, as the Owner (landlord) lives at the property they are responsible for the TM30 and liable for the fine.

So I agree that the OP wasn't liable for the 800 baht fine IF the fine was for failure to submit a TM30. But as pointed out by Faz he could have been fined for 800 baht (max 2k) for failing to report his change of address which ALL foreigners, tourist or otherwise, are liable for. So either way he owed immigration at least 800 baht.

He "owed anyway" ??? First you agree that the fine was illegal, then you keep climbing on mirrors and IFS to defend a moot point and injustice. I was thinking you had better standards than that. Anybody can judge on what you wrote, no problem with me anyway.

[elviajero]

No need Paz.

I have already stated that, following information not initially disclosed by the OP, as the Owner (landlord) lives at the property they are responsible for the TM30 and liable for the fine.

So I agree that the OP wasn't liable for the 800 baht fine IF the fine was for failure to submit a TM30. But as pointed out by Faz he could have been fined for 800 baht (max 2k) for failing to report his change of address which ALL foreigners, tourist or otherwise, are liable for. So either way he owed immigration at least 800 baht.

He "owed anyway" ??? First you agree that the fine was illegal, then you keep climbing on mirrors and IFS to defend a moot point and injustice. I was thinking you had better standards than that. Anybody can judge on what you wrote, no problem with me anyway.

Yes I agree that if the OP isn't classed as a house-master, which is unlikely given the latest but incomplete information from the OP, then he should not have been fined. The landlord should. Lets not debate that any further.

The problem is that none of us commenting were at the meeting and don't know for sure why he was fined. You are aware that ALL foreigners, by law, (whether always enforced or not) are required to report a change of address when permanently leaving any address notified to immigration as their place of stay. The OP didn't report a change of address.

So, by law, the landlord failed to file a TM30 and the OP failed to report a change of address TM28.

Therefore they are both liable, by law, to be fined for each separate infraction. So my point was that the IO could legally fine the OP 800 baht for failing to report his change of address and one way or another 800 baht was due.

I am not defending the IO. I was disagreeing with you that the IO "illegally extorted" the OP out of 800 baht. IMO the worst offence committed by the IO would be issuing a receipt to the OP for the wrong violation.

Whether or not this and other IO's are right to arbitrarily apply the law is a completely different matter.

[paz]

Yes I agree that if the OP isn't classed as a house-master, which is unlikely given the latest but incomplete information from the OP, then he should not have been fined. The landlord should. Lets not debate that any further.

As I said, no problem and not point in further debating. You spoke your opinion in very many words over repeated postings, and each one can decide who do agree with. Incidentally let me repost what moderators said before

House possessor where you stay must fill in form Notification Form for House Master, Owner, or the Possessor of The Residence Where Aliens Have Stay (TM.30)

As a tourist its not your obligation, for expats the form to fill in is Form for Aliens to Notify Their Change of Address or Their Stay in the Province over 24 Hours (TM.28)

and

It seems the place or owner where you are staying did not report your presence by doing a TM30 form or online if they are registered to do it.

They should of fined them not you.

If you want to take the last word again, no problem, enjoy.

[novo58]

is not the 90 day reporting in effect .....................fulfilling this requirement as I see it that you are really reporting that you still live at that address.

I am currently in Australia for a short time ...............when I return I will put my thai(gf's) address on the arrival form. Surely this is the initial report of a foreigner living at a thai address and then my subsequent 90 day report will simply re- confirm residency at this address.

PLEASE dont tell me that after returning to the kingdom , that I have to ALSO go immigration and advise them that I have returned and am living there again ??

[naboo]

is not the 90 day reporting in effect .....................fulfilling this requirement as I see it that you are really reporting that you still live at that address.

I am currently in Australia for a short time ...............when I return I will put my thai(gf's) address on the arrival form. Surely this is the initial report of a foreigner living at a thai address and then my subsequent 90 day report will simply re- confirm residency at this address.

PLEASE dont tell me that after returning to the kingdom , that I have to ALSO go immigration and advise them that I have returned and am living there again ??

No, you don't. But your girlfriend does to report that an alien is now residing at the address.

[novo58]

@naboo.........................

Why would gf have to do a report ...................if I put her address ON THE ARRIVALS CARD.................

then immigration have been informed that I am living there.

That should be enough ........................................but T I T

[elviajero]

@naboo.........................

Why would gf have to do a report ...................if I put her address ON THE ARRIVALS CARD.................

then immigration have been informed that I am living there.

That should be enough ........................................but T I T

Because these are the rules.

There are two rules.

1. You give immigration the address you will be living at (Arrival card - TM6) . (section 37: 2.)

2. The owner or house-master of the address you stay at (maybe thats your girlfriend) has to confirm to immigration on a separate form (TM30) that you've arrived and are living there. (section 38)

If you arrive and stay in a hotel, guesthouse etc then they complete a TM30. If you stay in a private residence the law still applies.

[novo58]

@ Elviajero .....................

Fair enough . I will accept your expertise on this subject . On my return to Thailand I will have the GF go to local immigration office to complete Tm 30( does that have to be done within 24 hrs of my return to Thailand????)

Thou ................this hasnt been an issue for the previous 2 years that I lived in Thailand. The GF never ( personally herself) advised immigration I was living there and in 2 years of 90 day reports , immigration never raised the issue. That period obviously included an application for extension of stay ( based on retirement).

Also never an issue when I did a 5 day trip to Pattaya to meet friends visiting from OZ. The hotel where I stayed probably did a report as required , but I

( nor the GF) NEVER went to immigration to advise that I had now returned to Udon Thani.

And this at Udon Thani immigration office which has a reputation of seeking " extra payments " for services rendered.

but as we all know T I T

Edited August 18, 2015 by novo58

[elviajero]

@ Elviajero .....................

Fair enough . I will accept your expertise on this subject . On my return to Thailand I will have the GF go to local immigration office to complete Tm 30( does that have to be done within 24 hrs of my return to Thailand????)

Thou ................this hasnt been an issue for the previous 2 years that I lived in Thailand. The GF never ( personally herself) advised immigration I was living there and in 2 years of 90 day reports , immigration never raised the issue. That period obviously included an application for extension of stay ( based on retirement).

And this at Udon Thani immigration office which has a reputation of seeking " extra payments " for services rendered.

but as we all know T I T

I quoted you the law but very few people know about it or follow it.

Some people have got caught out on this when going to do annual extensions. It seems that some offices/officers are enforcing the rule. Worst case if you don't do it and get found out is a 800 baht (standard) fine (max 2k).

Anyone that doesn't go near an immigration office very unlikely to get found out.

[naboo]

novo58, what elviajero said is correct. It is unlikely that your gf would ever be caught, but it is the letter of the law. Now, how much could get done in this country if everyone followed every law by the letter?