Thailand To Seize Thaksin's Assets

[travelguy]

I look forward to a new constitution.

I look forward to a democratically elected government where the majority rule.

I look forward to evidence that will stand up in the courts of the country, instead of allegations and innuendo.

I believe the Thai people deserve this after 15 years of democracy.

[pap]

Maybe it will humble us a little though and that couldn't hurt. Then again maybe the Thais now have a better shot at being properly governed than us. Its pretty tough to be hard on em when this sure looks better than what we have had for a while. We need more than 2 parties cause there are sure more than two ways to do things. Maybe we can watch the Thais for a while and learn something.

[John K]

I had suggested this before that some key laws would require the King’s approval before they could be changed. If they set up a good solid constitution they can make this happen. This essentially a bit of a leash that may be required to avoid another cycle of this mess. I think they have this now in the form of a royal decrees. I was thinking more along the lines of expanding that to protect laws that could make corruption easier. Thaksin just changed them as they got in his way. Someone said “Thaksin has found and highlighted all the problems with the constitution”, I agree with that assessment.

[davidb98]

Seems to me Taksin improved and developed Thailand greatly on the world stage and internally during his rule.

He introduced significant improvements to peoples lives with the hospital and the one product one tambon schemes.

I am told that his attacks on the drug trade while too violent has reduced the growth of this industry and annoyed many Thai gangsters. Its these people that ordinary Thais should get rid of!

Compared to previous Thai leaders I think he was superior in action and benefits to Thailand.

And, much of the complaint against him appears to be jealousy.

I think he will accept whatever is thrown at him provided its handled by the legal system and not simply a political witchhunt by an elite minority that could not achieve enough votes to topple him constitutionally.

[Martin]

In post #37, 'pap' said:

"We need more than 2 parties cause there are sure more than two ways to do things. "

Personally, I agree.

And, having lived in England during most of Margaret thatcher's 'reign', I would add that a strong third party that can present itself as a credible alternative government would have kept her from her wilder excesses when she realised she didn't have to fear de-election, as the second party were making themselves unelectable.

But most people don't agree. They want things simple. And three strong parties means the likelihood of no one party getting a majority, and so the complications of forming a coalition arise.

Hence they go along with constituencies electing just one member, which means that the tendency will be for a two-party situation to develop.

(The political scientists call it the "M+1 Rule". If there is only one seat to vote for, two strong parties will emerge. If there are two seats to vote for, three parties will develop strongly, etc.)

Personally, I prefer complicated effectiveness to simple inadequacy; but I always was mildly eccentric!

A good, hard thinking about how to work out how much of Thaksin's assetts were ill-gotten and should be returned to the Ministry of Finance will, hopefully, do the development of political thinking in Thailand a power of good.

Providence works in most mysterious ways, and it may be that History will see Thaksin's first term as Prime Minister to have been a masterful restoration of the Thailand economy, and his second term to have been so disastrous (for him, though not for the economy) that it was a blessing in disguise.

Who knows? We might, at the end of it all, see Thailand get some political parties with some coherent views of how Thailand's society should develop. But I always was an optimist.

[toolpush]

Crook? I don't know about Paul McCartney but Clinton sure as hel_l is a crook!

Thailand to target deposed PM's assets

Forbes magazine in July said Thaksin is Thailand's fourth richest businessman with a fortune worth R2,2-billion.

Who are the three? The ones richer than him? Would be interesting to know.

....and what is R2,2-billion? Is that Rand, Ruppees, Baht even, or Dollars or Pounds? I'm a multi milllionaire in Vietnam and Italy, really!!!

You will find details about the other three, all wealthier than Thaksin, at the following site:

[link removed by Admin2]

They are, according to Forbes ranking:

214. Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi, Thailand, 61, $3.2, alcohol

292. Chaleo Yoovidhya, Thailand, 74, $2.5, Red Bull

317. Dhanin Chearavanont and family, Thailand, 66, $2.4, agriculture

Thaksin was clearly a wealthy man before taking office and was taken to court over the stated value of his assets some months after taking office. He was cleared by the courts.

Why do we assume that, because he's rich, that he's a crook? Paul McCartney's a billionaire, is he also corrupted? Bill Clinton was on the verge of bankruptcy but is now a multi-millionaire.

So many critics, I wonder where all of you get your facts.

[gregchambers]

The old system of Thai corruption pre 1997 was to take five percent off all government projects and put it into the hands of the politicians and this worked reasonably well (esp compared to many African countries where they took 95 percent of the money...) for a long time.

No-one really knows what has been going down in DR T's rule at the moment and how much loot was taken from the mega-projects and how much is actually left in the governments hands. Given that Thaksin was an almost invisible politician in the background during the 1997 plundering of the Thai treasury, the art of which was never fully explained, it will be interesting to see if we are in for a repeat of that time - Thaksin may actually then say the country fell apart without his rule, etc.

Be interesting to see how the Thais will blame foreigners this time around (IMF last time), maybe they will have a go at the Chinese for a change...

[charlesfrith]

Bill Clinton makes money from his book 'My Life' and from speaking engagements. He's also allowed to make investments that he was unable to do as a president. In addition he defended himself from persecution by the neo con right wing factions at great personal cost which is why he was bankrupt as a president. The incumbent has lived his pampered low IQ life from oil profits and has declared the U.S. is addicted to oil

Paul McCartney hasn't run for office.

Thaksin never said the nation is addicted to mobiles.

His maid and chauffeur are unusually rich.

You might benefit from reading a little more in depth before the self actualisation of being brain washed by the media dawns on you.

Good luck. You need it.

Crook? I don't know about Paul McCartney but Clinton sure as hel_l is a crook!

Thailand to target deposed PM's assets

Forbes magazine in July said Thaksin is Thailand's fourth richest businessman with a fortune worth R2,2-billion.

Who are the three? The ones richer than him? Would be interesting to know.

....and what is R2,2-billion? Is that Rand, Ruppees, Baht even, or Dollars or Pounds? I'm a multi milllionaire in Vietnam and Italy, really!!!

You will find details about the other three, all wealthier than Thaksin, at the following site:

[link removed by Admin2]

They are, according to Forbes ranking:

214. Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi, Thailand, 61, $3.2, alcohol

292. Chaleo Yoovidhya, Thailand, 74, $2.5, Red Bull

317. Dhanin Chearavanont and family, Thailand, 66, $2.4, agriculture

Thaksin was clearly a wealthy man before taking office and was taken to court over the stated value of his assets some months after taking office. He was cleared by the courts.

Why do we assume that, because he's rich, that he's a crook? Paul McCartney's a billionaire, is he also corrupted? Bill Clinton was on the verge of bankruptcy but is now a multi-millionaire.

So many critics, I wonder where all of you get your facts.

[Beachedwhale]

Let's slow down folks.

If they were just head hunting Thaksin the assets would already be seized. They will seize the assets only if prosecution is probable or imminent.

Try to not underestimate the powers behind this coup. There is no vindictiveness. Already, the coup leaders are setting things in place for proper legal channels to proceed. If it is deemed Thaksin's assets are largely illegally gained, they will be seized, or more likely simply frozen until an investigation can be undertaken.

I agree. I believe the new powers are very smart - not just the head but the advisors as well. I feel extremely confident that they will do things the proper way. Thaksin was rich anyway. Any ill gotten gains or taxes or fines will still be much less than his total wealth and probably much less than his wealth available for seizure in Thailand (subject to the legal process of course). And there are also enough treaties in place for his assets to be seized offshore at a later date should it be necessary. I believe there is no need to start seizing assets today unless of course it is found that Thaksin or his family start to try and move or hide assets (If the family did that then it would indicate some form of guilt and give good reason for seizure).

If they started to do it now before there has been a proper investigation then it would only do more harm to the image that they are doing it for the people and not just to get back at Thaksin. I get more confident everyday in what is happening.

[ssparks111]

Two points to be made:

1-Thaksin got out of Thailand with most of his assets, hence the 60 suitcases of gold, jewelry, cash and other valuables that were taken out by him and his family. Wouldn't be surprised if most of his real property (land, buildings) were already sold or otherwise disposed of. Offshore accounts, investment accounts, etc are going to be so buried that they probably never will be traced back Thaksin, assuming they can be found in the first place. Whatever can be seized at this point is a fraction of the total and will be for show, only.

2-As another poster pointed out, these conversations are severly crippled because we can only express one sided opinions as to the current situation. Don't get me wrong, I am completely supportive of the coup, but I would love to be able to debate and constructively discuss both pros and cons. That is what I have come to really appreciate about this forum...lively, well argued, constructive arguments about the happenings in Thailand. It will be nice when we can have that again.

[sossn]

Well i Believe its too late the horse has bolted and the accounts will now be concealed and furthermore it should be done to everyone that is a politician

[Beavis and Butthead]

This is a good thing as there is alleged corruption. I know that in this forum people like to compare Thailand visa regs with farang countries and I think this is wrong. However I do believe the US should have done exactly this, freeze assets of the Bill Clinton administration when they bilked US taxpayers out of billions. No they did not have the balls that the Thais are showing in this great move. I applaud

[cmiuc]

This country may be in a for long haul... examples of other countries with these kind of problems, never show to be very successful "for the people, of the people, and by the people".

I'm sure there will be a lot of Mr Corruptive Skeletons will coming out for both sides of these conflicts.

[Martin]

'gregchambers' said in post #42:

"Be interesting to see how the Thais will blame foreigners this time around (IMF last time), maybe they will have a go at the Chinese for a change...".

In all fairness, even the IMF would now agree that their approach to Thailand's problems in 1997 was entirely counter-productive. They wanted 'the Mexico solution' applied to what wasn't 'the Mexico problem'.

I wondered why Thaksin had chosen to go to London, when a Chinese-Thai might have been expected to look to going to China.

But he will have thought it through. So maybe he decided it was better to embarass 'has beens' with his presence, rather than 'the up-and-coming'.

[brahmburgers]

By not freezing his bank accounts immediatly after the coup took effect, the Bank of Thailand prez left the barn door open. No one should be surprised to find that he and his operatives siphoned billions of baht out of Thailand in those ensuing days. Of course, he had already spirited away most of his wealth even before the coup. He's always been a step or two ahead of the 'keystone cops' back home.

[Ricardo]

Thaksin was clearly a wealthy man before taking office and was taken to court over the stated value of his assets some months after taking office. He was cleared by the courts.

On a split-vote, due only to having just won an election, an early sign of undue-influence to come.

Why do we assume that, because he's rich, that he's a crook? Paul McCartney's a billionaire, is he also corrupted? Bill Clinton was on the verge of bankruptcy but is now a multi-millionaire.

So many critics, I wonder where all of you get your facts.

Where did you get that from?

Most of us lived under his rule since 2000. He`s a crook.

Don`t give a dog`s <deleted> whether he is wealthy or not.

But he is a crook.

Absolutely !

There seem to be a lot of very innocent posts, no doubt well-meant, from Newbies who aren't necessarily living here, who seem not to have seen what was happening here in Thailand.

Seizing a few of his assets, while the case is made out, will not affect the majority of his assets in the B.V.I., Singapore, London or Switzerland or other dodgy tax-havens where dirty money is laundered. He knew this was coming. That's why he shipped out personal-property by the plane-load.

IMHO the military have saved the country, waiting until the very last minute to do so, from another Marcos, and are to be congratulated.

That there were no military-coups for 15 years, shows how far democracy has advanced here, and also how necessary it had become, that this now took place. Well Done Sonthi ! You saved the country from a blood-bath.

Now let's wait a few weeks, to give the CDRM a chance, and then start to judge them by their actions. It is way premature to criticise now. And see what evidence comes out, regarding the major corruption, which I believe most expats here would agree, has been rampant over the past 5 years.

Long Live the King !

[Ed.Lee]

I once read a story about a land free from corruption, the idea went something like this...

Anyone who wanted to be in Governent had all their assets and thier families assests siezed by the country. If after their term in office the country had flourished and all the services which were needed had been supplied to the agreed level, schools, books, hospitals, roads etc. Then after the term in office the person in question would get their assests back plus a percentage equal to the growth of the countries economy.

If the country had not flourished or the services met to the agreed standard then they would only recieve a portion of that money back.

Sounded like a nice Idea to me.

In my opinion, people who wish to govern should not be able to have personal business dealings which would benefit from thier position of power. It is open to too much abuse and we see it time and time again. Belesconi in Italy is another prime example of this, (sorry if I spelt your name wrong Mr Belesconi.)

Tax free deals, property near multi million dollar airports which will sky rocket in price is not governing a country, when their are schools without enough funding or another hundred problems which should be addressed, it is simply lining your own pockets and is an abuse of power.

I do not understand why mankind allows itself to elect corrupt, greedy, self serving men and women to places of privilage and service. You would imagine that somewhere down the line we would have come to the realisation that if there is no accountability for these people then we are doing both them and ourselves a huge disservice.

The Thaksin's and Belesconi's of this world will continue to behave in ways unfitting for a leader until we cease to give them the ability to do so. Politics aside, what ever happened to good character, morals, honesty and accountability?

[britainmal]

How about Taksin's assets in the British Virgin Islands? Can the Military

Junta seize those assets? What is his total asset value in Thailand?

[eljeque]

Thailand to target deposed PM's assets

Forbes magazine in July said Thaksin is Thailand's fourth richest businessman with a fortune worth R2,2-billion.

Who are the three? The ones richer than him? Would be interesting to know.

....and what is R2,2-billion? Is that Rand, Ruppees, Baht even, or Dollars or Pounds? I'm a multi milllionaire in Vietnam and Italy, really!!!

You will find details about the other three, all wealthier than Thaksin, at the following site:

[link removed by Admin2]

They are, according to Forbes ranking:

214. Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi, Thailand, 61, $3.2, alcohol

292. Chaleo Yoovidhya, Thailand, 74, $2.5, Red Bull

317. Dhanin Chearavanont and family, Thailand, 66, $2.4, agriculture

Thaksin was clearly a wealthy man before taking office and was taken to court over the stated value of his assets some months after taking office. He was cleared by the courts.

Why do we assume that, because he's rich, that he's a crook? Paul McCartney's a billionaire, is he also corrupted? Bill Clinton was on the verge of bankruptcy but is now a multi-millionaire.

So many critics, I wonder where all of you get your facts.

Because he had a monopoly on the mobile phone system from the early 90s, granted to him following the Suchinda Coup. Coup leaders providing monopolies is a corrupt action.

His government gave Burma(Myanmar) or gauranteed the loan to buy $40 million in technology equipment from HIS company.

His son's company has the MONOPOLY to sell advertising space in the subway system.

His daughter/sister/wife, one of those with a P as the first letter in their name (they are all similar) with a small amount of money opened a company, and then immediately partnered with a large international techonology company to bid on and receive a giant government contract.

What goes around, comes around. Som Nam Na!!

[Neeranam]

เวรกรรม 'wen gam'

[logbags]

Thaksin made his original money along with his father-in-law who was a Police General. In one deal involving massage parlour licensing they made 100 million baht.

Thaksin used his connections within the filth to get a deal to flog computers to the Police nation wide. Of course the price was greatly inflated and he made a killing.

When he obtained the satelite and mobile phone concessions, 4 billion was paid in bribes to one particular General who then died and left a shit fight between his "mia luang" and "mia noi" over this dosh. Nobody seemed to want to know how a General had 4 billion in cash in the bank.

Once the concessions were bought he had a licence to print money with a virtual monopoly on the mobile phone business. It became so hard to get a land line many people just went and got a mobile.

When he became Prime Minister he used his power to discourage competition from Orange and Hutchins in the mobile business, he gave Government officials a mobile and 4000 baht a month allowance all connected to his private company.

He used every opportunity as Prime Minister to scam secret commissions and sweet heart deals for his family and children. All while making outrageous promises like ending poverty etc.

This guy studied criminology we are told, he claims a Ph.D but who knows how that was obtained.

He certainly understands the art of criminology.

In Thai they use the word "jiin kabot"which basically means a Chinese Gang to describe Thaksin and his cronies.

[fruittbatt]

As much as I enjoy a mindless chuckle at the thought of the seizure of Shinawatra Silk or Pojaman's shoes or the photo studio in Siam Square or Air Asia (especially: they owe me money!)or a cache of ill-gotten rubies, none of this is about to happen without due processes of investigation and law. There will not be Stalinist purges here, so lelaK, out there!

It is quite true that Thaksin was BORN rich. His family were Thai-Chinese silk-traders and - ironically enough - TAX FARMERS!

T entered politics to protect and further his business interests. He made much money (most of his fortune) - as indeed his son has done - through monopoly concessions from the government. This was quite easy as his uncle was Deputy Minister for Communication at the time T was setting up his cable TV channel, and one of his former police school mates chaired the Mass Communications Organization of Thailand. After obtaining the concessions, T listed his companies on the stock exchange, thereby turning government contracts into billions of baht.

T was in repeated trouble after his election because he failed to declare his shares in companies holding government contracts. In fact he was chucked out of the post of foreign minister in 1994 for that reason.

It gets much much worse as we enter the 21st century and the Shincorp deal...but maybe that is sufficient evidence for now to show that we are not dealing with a Paul Mc Cartney or a political victim here, but rather with a man who ruthlessly used his political position to mega-enrich himself at the expense of every Thai taxpayer. Power to Khunying Jaruvan in her investigations, and I hope that the taxpayers of Thailand get their "day in court".

Edited September 23, 2006 by fruittbatt

[logbags]

The assets Thaksin holds are chump change to what his wife has. His children also hold large assets.

Pojaman is like most Chinese matriarchs, the power behind the throne.

I don't want to sound like a bigot but traditional Chinese confucian values like hardwork, frugality and cultivation of family prosperity all too often become avaricousness, nepotism and corruption when money becomes everything in life.

Many of my Chinese friends speak of constant family pressure from elders to become rich like it is the greatest aspiration to have in life.

The recent comments from the richest man in Thailand made me concerned when he spoke of getting rich as the main priority of living. He fails to see all life is transient and you are born and die with nothing.

To spend your whole life greedily accumulating like a frightened squirrel is the ultimate ignorance of the spiritual being we all are.

[asd]

Thaksin could be put on trial, have his assets frozen, maybe even imprisoned. Mr. Thaksin and TRT would be destroyed.

-----------------------------------------

Don't worry.

This photo in the aftermath of Thailand's coup. Friendly soldiers..!!!

[Martin]

'fruitbatt' finished with: "It gets much much worse as we enter the 21st century and the Shincorp deal...but maybe that is sufficient evidence for now to show that we are not dealing with a Paul Mc Cartney or a political victim here, but rather with a man who ruthlessly used his political position to mega-enrich himself at the expense of every Thai taxpayer. Power to Khun Jaruvan in her investigations, and I hope that the taxpayers of Thailand get their "day in court".

That is a good summary, but we shouldn't hold our breath.

For centuries, the 'name of the game' of going after high political, or military, office has (for most, though not quite all) been to mega-enrich yourself. And the Thai people have seen it being condoned, all the way to the very, very top.

In a hierarchical society, it isn't seen as appropriate that 'the lower orders' should get their "day in court".

However, old hierarchical ideas have to co-exist with new democratic ones that come along. That takes time, and there has only been 74 years of that, as yet.

One thing that will be interesting to watch will be whether the 'middle-and-upper-class' fix that reserved parliament to the middle and upper classes in the 1997 Constitution (by restricting parliamentary-candidature to university graduates) carries forward into the next Constitution.

It really was a classic way of making sure that democracy was eliminated from "Democratic Government".

I cherish an essay written by Ruth McVey for the introduction of the book that she edited, called "Money and Power in Provincial Thailand", (Silkworm, 2000).

In it she says, about the 1997 Constitution, "Another four decades, and bureaucratic rule was itself overthrown as an obstacle on Thailand's road to good government and modernity. There is no reason to suppose that the order that is now emerging will not itself come to seem archaic, the enemy of future vision of modernity and proper rule. Indeed, the new system may not last long. It is, after all, very narrowly based. It ignores the still-numerous peasantry, the emergent urban working class, the claims and opportunities of religion. Its culture is a Sino-Thai and Western version of Thai-ness, alien to the vast part of the population.....democracy's egalitarianism beds uncomfortably with capitalism's inequality...."

I know not who Ruth McVey is, but those words "Indeed the new system may not last long" certainly qualify her for membership of the I-Told-You-So Club.

I would just add that capitalism's inequality, and rampant consumerism, bed uncomfortably with the fact that the world is now running out of the easily-won, cheap oil upon which they have been depending.

It'll take more than recovering the ill-gotten part of Thaksin's gains to keep the Bangkok air-conditioning running.

As I have said before, all applicants for Peasantry 101 please queue on the left.

We live in interesting times.

[sossn]

Haow are they going to areest thaksin when he is in England and there are no extradition orders to Thailand from there?????

[tcnofear]

Completely expected, and completely wrong. Thaksin probably did obtain a significant amount in shady if not outright illegal ways, but confiscating the property just because someone is out of political favor sends a very wrong message about Thailand. There should be legal procedings questioning the origin of property, but they should apply to all people in or close to politics, not just to Thaksin. Of course, snow in Bangkok is more likely than this...

The purge must start with the head.

It's only the begining of a process. Do not worry, some eminent members of Thaksin's clique will come under investigation too.

You continue to think that it's only a "little corruption", like a bad thai tradition, a form of "exotism".

No. With Thaksin, and for the first time in the modern history of this country, corruption has reached an industrial level.

We are going to be surprised in the weeks to come... Now that officials can really conduct investigations.

Pongsak (Minister transport), Somchai.... all of them are dirty. Sisters, wife, children, cousins, step brothers of Thaksin... All of them will feel the shame of the caught thieves.

Hear hear 100% In my country they can seize assets on suspection of illegal gain util the owner can prove lawful ownership come on be real its about time the cleaners went through this country in an open manner so everone can know the truth.

[newworks]

Completely expected, and completely wrong. Thaksin probably did obtain a significant amount in shady if not outright illegal ways, but confiscating the property just because someone is out of political favor sends a very wrong message about Thailand. There should be legal procedings questioning the origin of property, but they should apply to all people in or close to politics, not just to Thaksin. Of course, snow in Bangkok is more likely than this...

let the tarring-and-feathering begin! nothing like an accusee-in-exile to make a show-trial easy. can't wait to hear about all the horrible stuff he's done.

[yorkman]

Haow are they going to areest thaksin when he is in England and there are no extradition orders to Thailand from there?????

Misinformation. The UK certainly does have a mutual extradition agreement with Thailand. As some who have committed crimes in the UK and skipped off to Thailand have found out! However any such action would need to result from a request from a recognised government and and from a court on charges that have not yet been brought.

Any extradition request would be subject to review by a court in the UK before being granted. If you would think, briefly, about the position that the UK government has adopted, and the western media seems to wish to propagate (references to a "junta" hardly seem fair unbalanced reporting) then what is the likelihood of this?

In any case, they are better off, in the meantime, with Toxin far far away.

[BlackJack]

The Maid and the Chauffeur seemed to have been highly paid considering their job responsibilities. Phatongtae is also highly wedged up for a student and maybe his degree from Ramkamhaeng can be reviewed now.

creative accounting is one thing however premeditated tax avoidence is against the law and the penalties for it should be high. Seize all assets of not only the family but the pseudo share holders as well.

Off with the head i say