Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[JLCrab]

< snip >

If I lived on the island and believed in Truth & Justice I would make some arrangement to provide any genuinely compelling information I had that would spring the 2 falsely accused or else I just don't care about Truth & Justice.

Sounds good Crab, but not believable.

< snip 2 >

So how much of the copious amounts that you post is believable?

If you Mr. Boomer ran a tourist attraction on Koh Tao instead on near Chiang Rai and still had your overwhelming pledge to Truth & Justice and that you had first-hand slam-dunk information that the 2 Burmese accused were innocent of all these crimes, would you sit on that info and let the young men be convected because to do otherwise might jeopardize your wall climbing business yet still claim that you are dedicated to Truth & Justice??

You can ask me questions, but your don't have to try to bring personal details of my life in to this.

My apologies. It is fun to ask you questions as your reply usually begins with Wrong. Not Really. Not Credible. Etc.

Edited September 1, 2015 by JLCrab

[sweatalot]

The defendants also agreed that broken glass was used as murder weapon, though no glass was found at or near the crime scene. When a person is being tortured, they'll say any damn thing. BTW, why have we heard nearly nothing in the prosecutions' presentations about wounds to victims or weapons used? It couldn't be because RTP and prosecution are hiding things could it? or maybe because Thai forensics completely mis-read (intentionally or unwittingly) the items they're supposedly trained to diagnose. It will be interesting when Ms Pontip takes the stand. Even more interesting if any British forensic findings are submitted to the proceedings.

Thanks for bringing up the so called murder weapon.

Not long after the murders occurred and the B2 were arrested, one of the posters from the "other" side tried to convince me that it was indeed possible that the hoe made the sharp cuts that were inflicted on DM. That discussion finished along the lines that it will be proven conclusively in court.

However, I didn't read anywhere where any particular attention was focused on whether the hoe was in fact the murder weapon used on DM (it could possibly have been on HW). Also, there were no reports of any other weapons that could have inflicted the wounds on DM. I'm just wondering if whether the defence decided that it was unnecessary to pursue this as the hoe does not belong to the B2 so it doesn't do anything to either the prosecution or defences' case. Also, it was unnecessary to focus on possible shark-toothed rings as once again, it would not bolster the defence's case as it is the B2 that are on trial and not some others.

The murder weapons according to the Roti seller included a wine bottle. So if they obtained autopsy reports then fragments may well remain. Does anyone know if the mention of a wine bottle was made in court. I haven't seen it from the reports I read?

I think David's injuries could well have been made with a short sharp instrument similar to a reconstruction that was made in this bar. A few weeks after the murder and posted on-line.

Imo, I don't think a pick axe could be wielded with sufficient precision to cause those wounds. If you were to swing a pick axe at another, you would be doing it with a tremendous amount of force and if it connects with flesh, it would imbed itself quite deeply. The wounds on David (and on Sean) don't seem very deep - maybe just to the depth of what a short push knife would achieve.

Bear in mind that the "investigators" need to have a plausible explanation for what could have caused those wounds. If they were trying to protect some individuals, they would have to steer away from weapons openly worn by these individuals. The wounds looked like they could also be caused by shards of glass. This could explain why a wine bottle was introduced into the "confession". This might well have been a miscalculation - what are the chances there would be wine bottles conveniently lying around? It would have been more believable if they had said beer bottles.

htere wouls have been broken fragments also. On the place of the murder and may be in the wounds.

[thailandchilli]

What I find very interesting at 10:11 is the black I-phone belonging to one of the victims. Undamaged.....

PAY-iphone-found-by-Thai-Police.jpg

Have there been any photos published of the 'smashed' phone?

Yes I've attached a couple of pics, one the phone being found in the bushes and the other Chris Ware being shown a phone, which is obviously not the one in the bushes.............or is it? Far too suspect for me

[boomerangutang]

The phone is nearly as insignificant (as evidence) as the cig but and the unused condom. .....and pretty sad, if that's the best the prosecution have for their frame-up. ....because the DNA trail is shot to shreds, or will be soon enough. The hair might have been useful, but we'll never know, because police lost it.

Would be interesting if there was CCTV of when the motorbike left the scene. Of course, if such footage offered an alibi for the defendants, no one outside of RTP and Mon will ever see it.

[smedly]

GB

witness statements take many for forms and yes it is up to the defense to discredit them or introduce doubt, for example, you mentioned a line up, the witness in that case may have known the victim but not the accused otherwise there would be no point in a line up, it's all quite logical

As for DNA evidence, it is very complex, the ultimate goal as you say is to match victim to accused or other evidence to accused from the crimescene - weapons being a good example, the critical aspect of dna evidence is proving were it came from and the steps or chains that DNA evidence went through during its collection and testing (it is not like a finger print), the other thing about DNA is that you must be able to reproduce the results from the same samples or if it is contested from new samples taken from the accused and independently verified, if DNA is tested and discarded or exhausted it then becomes inadmisable because the chain is broken, it would be a little like the police having a murder weapon (a gun) having it tested and then lose the gun - any evidence obtained from the gun becomes inadmisable, DNA results and the process through which they were obtained must be well documented and verifiable, the lab will not be aware of who the samples belong too, there are however instances when DNA may become exhausted and special procedures must be followed in such a situation, observation of this particular case were they claimed DNA was exhausted "for me" is not very plausable considering that the samples from the body of a rape victim would be plentiful and considering they only need to be tested once with the remainder of the samples stored for future verification if the need arise, in the west very rare as the police and the process is general trusted and very well documented

Edited September 1, 2015 by smedly

[GOLDBUGGY]

I would have thought so, but then we are not privy to every bit of evidence that is presented to the Judges.

A lot of evidence seems to have been discredited, and now it seems the only evidence the prosecution has is the phone...

The B2 actually admitted to handling it, but say they found it which is quite plausible, and seems their is actually no proof it was David's... or even if he had it at the time he was murdered.

Maybe someone gave it to them? You know, like a reward, for example, for doing some manual labour, like lifting heavy objects.

There has been so much misinformation (particularly on this thread and especially the last few posts) about this phone that I doubt if anyone remembers exactly what was said and what is actually true.

Whatever the truth about the phone, it is still, at the end of the day, just circumstantial evidence in a trial about rape and murder (it's not a trial about a phone theft). If this is the only solid "damning" evidence the prosecution has, then I can't possibly imagine a conviction based solely on this.

Ah, but one of the charges Wai Phyo faces is the theft of a mobile phone and sunglasses from David Miller. Which reminds me, have said sunglasses been produced as evidence yet?

That is a good question about the sun glasses. I never saw it mentioned that they were ever found or produced as evidence.

I do recall from a media report from days gone by that when David went back to the Aussie Bar first and when he found it closed he stopped in to buy a pair of sun glasses. I recall this as I thought it odd at the time he would be doing that so late at night. But then I have been known wear them to then.

He then proceeded to the AC Bar where he met up with Hannah. So I guess it stands to reason that if he did not forget them in the AC Bar, or loose them on the way to the AC Bar or Crime Scene he would have had them with him. But never heard a word after that. .

[sweatalot]

ok lets look at this phone issue, there are two camps on here - those (the vast majority) that think this case is a stitch up and those that think the RTP have done a stellar job and have grounds to convict B2 (very few)

suppose for a moment that the police have manufactured this phone trail - how have they done that and what do we know

1. they have presented no evidence that the phone belonged to David (critical) something that would be simple to do, at this moment in time it is an iphone one of many thousands in Thailand - it could still very well be his but that changes nothing from the points below

2, the phone could easily have been planted

3. as far as I know they did not examine the said phone for dna or finger prints, I have got to question that, it is fundamental in any investigation if you want to connect the evidence to the story, why have they not done this

4. the testimony from the 2x people involved that recieved the phone have since gone and are no longer available, they could easily have been paid off to say what they said, why are they not available and why did they leave ? where are they now

5. something I am still not clear about, when did the accused make their statement about the phone, was it before they had legal council and as such would be no more reliable than the discredited retracted confession

6. there are also conflicting accounts of phones from the start of this investigation creating doubt about what the police are claiming, didn't they claim to have found a phone on the beach belonging to one of the victims ?

I am not saying the above is true, it is purely conjecture on my part but IMO is still feasible and not beyond possibility

I would be very interested in other peoples thoughts on the matter so feel free to reply to my post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For what it's worth I don't feel it's possible to get past point 1 on your timetable. It's a phone ! Many phones lost or stolen daily everywhere in the world. Doesn't mean a thing unless it's linked to someone. And as you say that's not hard to do and should be the first stop in a investigation as it opens up so many lines of enquiry. But they don't know who's phone it is or don't know how to identify it or it's as likely nothing to do with the crime.

When they say they don't know it does not necessarily mean they don't know. May be they know too well but this would match with a quite different story. May be they have a lot of CCTV evidence which is not working out well for their story, may be they checked the phonecall from Murder island that night. May be they checked witnesses in AC Bar ..... In spite of all the blunder regarding the crime scene in the beginning their seems to have been at least one decent investigator who did many of the right things...

[GOLDBUGGY]

GB

witness statements take many for forms and yes it is up to the defense to discredit them or introduce doubt, for example, you mentioned a line up, the witness in that case may have known the victim but not the accused otherwise there would be no point in a line up, it's all quite logical

As for DNA evidence, it is very complex, the ultimate goal as you say is to match victim to accused or other evidence to accused from the crimescene - weapons being a good example, the critical aspect of dna evidence is proving were it came from and the steps or chains that DNA evidence went through during its collection and testing (it is not like a finger print), the other thing about DNA is that you must be able to reproduce the results from the same samples or if it is contested from new samples taken from the accused and independently verified, if DNA is tested and discarded or exhausted it then becomes inadmisable because the chain is broken, it would be a little like the police having a murder weapon (a gun) having it tested and then lose the gun - any evidence obtained from the gun becomes inadmisable, DNA results and the process through which they were obtained must be well documented and verifiable, the lab will not be aware of who the samples belong too, there are however instances when DNA may become exhausted and special procedures must be followed in such a situation, observation of this particular case were they claimed DNA was exhausted "for me" is not very plausable considering that the samples from the body of a rape victim would be plentiful and considering they only need to be tested once with the remainder of the samples stored for future verification if the need arise, in the west very rare as the police and the process is general trusted and very well documented

Thanks for that smedly.

Well written and easy to understand now.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

I have stayed out of this subject post for a while due to several reasons. My total respect goes out to those of you that have persevered in fighting for justice in this case. So many posters on here have continuously put forward there thoughts and opinions on what's happened in this tragic and brutal case. There's also been the very few posters for what ever reason feel they have to derail the forum whenever possible. It's sad that justice in this case for Hannah and David has been obstructed by other agendas and the possible wrongfully sentence of the B2 and the anguish of them and there families. And as for Hannah and David's parents and family I despair for how they must feel especially as the trial has taken its course. From allegedly saying they were hopefull that justice would be done must be totally confused and feel badly let down by the Thai police and authorities. I can say this , and before any of the RTP defenders come at me, as many have said and I have myself stated previously up this date still NO evidence has been produced or offered into the case that remotely would suggest any involvement by the B2. All the pages on this topic and pouring out of opinions and thoughts on what might have happened and failings in procedures have come to nothing apart from making many of us feel we are helping in solving this crime and the possible further one of innocents found guilty. People on here really do care, I know that for sure, and the injustices that abound in the Thai police and justice system have for many been a cause of so much incredulation and amazement. And yes even criminality by the powers that be. Will it ever change? .For those you have fought so hard and long I feel it will and this trial is a watershed I hope that shows up all that's wrong in policing and courts in this country. The RTP have been shown up in lacking even the basic skill set and ability to even muster a half decent case when the questions have been asked and it's clear to me it hasn't happened very often if at all where they have been taken to task and actually had to justify there procedures and decisions. It's very very clear that they haven't a clue how to correctly investigate a crime of this magnitude and seriousness and have been found wanting in every aspect. The cover up daily continues but the good people who have fought this case in here and the likes of Andy Hall I salute you all. Do you, and have you ,made a difference. Dam right you have ! I'm sure of that. It's not going to happen over night but the awareness in the failures of the RTP is there for all to see !! It's no longer enough to say it's like this because we say so ! No evidence ! Up to now, how many days in court, how many witnesses,? What happened to the 65 alleged witness for the prosecution ! The finest defense in this case has been the prosecution. What will happen. The defense will present there case in a professional way as would be expected. And it will go to appeal! Saving face and all that. In any civilized society it would have never made it to trial. And if it did in any civilised society it would have been thrown out in the first weeks.! It's a hot potato and nobody knows what to do least of all the RTP with there 'perfect case'. So hang in there guys, you have made a difference and I know the majority just want justice for Hannah and David regardless of what that means but just don't feel the B2 represents that justice. Bring on the defense !

It has been a horrible case for the prosecution and even more horrible for the victim's families. To be told the prosecution has solid damning evidence against the B2 and then sit in court and find discomfort with confusion and the reality the B2 are not the killers is devastating. The mountain of evidence... a mirage. The really sad part is the real killers will go on to kill again and we will be right back here again mourning, speculating, theorizing, debating, defending and accusing.

[seahorse]

ok lets look at this phone issue, there are two camps on here - those (the vast majority) that think this case is a stitch up and those that think the RTP have done a stellar job and have grounds to convict B2 (very few)

suppose for a moment that the police have manufactured this phone trail - how have they done that and what do we know

1. they have presented no evidence that the phone belonged to David (critical) something that would be simple to do, at this moment in time it is an iphone one of many thousands in Thailand - it could still very well be his but that changes nothing from the points below

2, the phone could easily have been planted

3. as far as I know they did not examine the said phone for dna or finger prints, I have got to question that, it is fundamental in any investigation if you want to connect the evidence to the story, why have they not done this

4. the testimony from the 2x people involved that recieved the phone have since gone and are no longer available, they could easily have been paid off to say what they said, why are they not available and why did they leave ? where are they now

5. something I am still not clear about, when did the accused make their statement about the phone, was it before they had legal council and as such would be no more reliable than the discredited retracted confession

6. there are also conflicting accounts of phones from the start of this investigation creating doubt about what the police are claiming, didn't they claim to have found a phone on the beach belonging to one of the victims ?

I am not saying the above is true, it is purely conjecture on my part but IMO is still feasible and not beyond possibility

I would be very interested in other peoples thoughts on the matter so feel free to reply to my post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For what it's worth I don't feel it's possible to get past point 1 on your timetable. It's a phone ! Many phones lost or stolen daily everywhere in the world. Doesn't mean a thing unless it's linked to someone. And as you say that's not hard to do and should be the first stop in a investigation as it opens up so many lines of enquiry. But they don't know who's phone it is or don't know how to identify it or it's as likely nothing to do with the crime.

When they say they don't know it does not necessarily mean they don't know. May be they know too well but this would match with a quite different story. May be they have a lot of CCTV evidence which is not working out well for their story, may be they checked the phonecall from Murder island that night. May be they checked witnesses in AC Bar ..... In spite of all the blunder regarding the crime scene in the beginning their seems to have been at least one decent investigator who did many of the right things...

Maybe they heard something when they were on the beach, like a woman screaming for help and saying "I'm sorry", so they went to investigate and they know exactly who did this but are afraid to say.

[Fat Haggis]

Plenty of alleged prosecution evidence was never presented because this is a show trial, a sham, a red herring, out of the alleged 65 prosecution witnesses how many really gave evidence?

As for this "Ace witness" hasn't materialised yet have they?

The Judge, if he had a pair of balls would have called a halt even before the defence take the stand, and berate the prosecution for what is tantamount to a case that's been shambolic from start to finish with regards to the prosecution. Unfortunately these judges will have already been privvy to the prosecutions witnesses, evidence etc, and felt comfortable enough to allow the trial to go forwards.

The Thai justice system and judicial system are also on trial here, and if after all these weeks of prosecution evidence and witnesse, this is their best effort, Christ knows just how bad their initial 4 submissions were? !!!!

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Someone in this forum said that maybe this will bring a change to the criminal investigation and justice system in Thailand. Don't waste your time wishing. There have been murders in Thailand since Koh Tao, rapes, and bombings. Saving Face...the same. Unprofessional investigations... the same.

[thailandchilli]

There has been so much misinformation (particularly on this thread and especially the last few posts) about this phone that I doubt if anyone remembers exactly what was said and what is actually true.

Whatever the truth about the phone, it is still, at the end of the day, just circumstantial evidence in a trial about rape and murder (it's not a trial about a phone theft). If this is the only solid "damning" evidence the prosecution has, then I can't possibly imagine a conviction based solely on this.

Ah, but one of the charges Wai Phyo faces is the theft of a mobile phone and sunglasses from David Miller. Which reminds me, have said sunglasses been produced as evidence yet?

That is a good question about the sun glasses. I never saw it mentioned that they were ever found or produced as evidence.

I do recall from a media report from days gone by that when David went back to the Aussie Bar first and when he found it closed he stopped in to buy a pair of sun glasses. I recall this as I thought it odd at the time he would be doing that so late at night. But then I have been known wear them to then.

He then proceeded to the AC Bar where he met up with Hannah. So I guess it stands to reason that if he did not forget them in the AC Bar, or loose them on the way to the AC Bar or Crime Scene he would have had them with him. But never heard a word after that. .

Zaw and Win are also facing charges of illegally entering the Kingdom of Thailand, residing in Thailand without permission, and nighttime theft for allegedly stealing Miller's mobile phone and sunglasses.

Just another of the mysteries that has not been revealed in court http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1418036469&section=00

[Darkknight666]

Another 9 hour day for yet another "Lead Investigator" it seems, I guess they think the more high ranking cops they have testify the stronger their case against B2. Being that he's from Koh Phangan, The party Isle, I'm sure he will have many nice things to say about the Burmese on Phangan

Tomorrow is the day (tentatively) we've been waiting for, time to see what the defense has to say and what evidence they've collected.

[phuketandsee]

Someone in this forum said that maybe this will bring a change to the criminal investigation and justice system in Thailand. Don't waste your time wishing. There have been murders in Thailand since Koh Tao, rapes, and bombings. Saving Face...the same. Unprofessional investigations... the same.

Sadly I agree this is not going to bring any change to the criminal investigation and justice system in Thailand. I'm inclined to agree with Sweatalot in his recent post (1832). I'm no fan of the RTP but I believe even they are not as incompetent as the presentation of this case suggests.

As Sweatalot says they seemed to be on the right track initially then were told to look elsewhere because their investigations were leading to the "wrong" person/s. The case was rejected by the prosecution 3 or 4 times because they couldn't find anything pointing to the B2 and now they have had to resort to embarrassing "don't knows" and "lost/used up" and "didn't look at that." The phone is their (hopefully) last attempt to fabricate some evidence.

Sadly this case will not change the police or the justice system. A sea change in Thai society and culture is the only thing that will achieve that. Don't hold your breath.

Edited September 1, 2015 by phuketandsee

[Rykbanlor]

Another 9 hour day for yet another "Lead Investigator" it seems, I guess they think the more high ranking cops they have testify the stronger their case against B2. Being that he's from Koh Phangan, The party Isle, I'm sure he will have many nice things to say about the Burmese on Phangan

Tomorrow is the day (tentatively) we've been waiting for, time to see what the defense has to say and what evidence they've collected.

If we get to it, i can imagine they will have this cop droning on listlessly for hours adding zero to the case.

[smedly]

ok lets look at this phone issue, there are two camps on here - those (the vast majority) that think this case is a stitch up and those that think the RTP have done a stellar job and have grounds to convict B2 (very few)

suppose for a moment that the police have manufactured this phone trail - how have they done that and what do we know

1. they have presented no evidence that the phone belonged to David (critical) something that would be simple to do, at this moment in time it is an iphone one of many thousands in Thailand - it could still very well be his but that changes nothing from the points below

2, the phone could easily have been planted

3. as far as I know they did not examine the said phone for dna or finger prints, I have got to question that, it is fundamental in any investigation if you want to connect the evidence to the story, why have they not done this

4. the testimony from the 2x people involved that recieved the phone have since gone and are no longer available, they could easily have been paid off to say what they said, why are they not available and why did they leave ? where are they now

5. something I am still not clear about, when did the accused make their statement about the phone, was it before they had legal council and as such would be no more reliable than the discredited retracted confession

6. there are also conflicting accounts of phones from the start of this investigation creating doubt about what the police are claiming, didn't they claim to have found a phone on the beach belonging to one of the victims ?

I am not saying the above is true, it is purely conjecture on my part but IMO is still feasible and not beyond possibility

I would be very interested in other peoples thoughts on the matter so feel free to reply to my post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For what it's worth I don't feel it's possible to get past point 1 on your timetable. It's a phone ! Many phones lost or stolen daily everywhere in the world. Doesn't mean a thing unless it's linked to someone. And as you say that's not hard to do and should be the first stop in a investigation as it opens up so many lines of enquiry. But they don't know who's phone it is or don't know how to identify it or it's as likely nothing to do with the crime.

When they say they don't know it does not necessarily mean they don't know. May be they know too well but this would match with a quite different story. May be they have a lot of CCTV evidence which is not working out well for their story, may be they checked the phonecall from Murder island that night. May be they checked witnesses in AC Bar ..... In spite of all the blunder regarding the crime scene in the beginning their seems to have been at least one decent investigator who did many of the right things...

Maybe they heard something when they were on the beach, like a woman screaming for help and saying "I'm sorry", so they went to investigate and they know exactly who did this but are afraid to say.

and have already been told they will be found innocent paid off and can leave back to their homes if they stay quiet

She is certainly not going to be shouting for help and saying "I'm sorry" to David, I just don't believe that 100%

David was the complication who also heard a commotion on the beach and went to investigate, I personally do not believe that David went to the beach with Hannah, I believe Hannah offended someone in AC bar and was possibly followed home

anyway nobody really knows and is just conjecture and we are all doing this because we know what we are being told is TBS

Nothing would surprise me at all

One thing I do know - there is evil on that Island

Edited September 1, 2015 by smedly

[boomerangutang]

You can ask me questions, but you don't have to try to bring personal details of my life in to this.

My apologies. It is fun to ask you questions as your reply usually begins with Wrong. Not Really. Not Credible. Etc.

Glad I could contribute to your fun.

The really sad part is the real killers will go on to kill again and we will be right back here again mourning, speculating, theorizing, debating, defending and accusing.

Maybe the real killers will go to places nearby where it's as easy to commit crimes (as KT) and get away with it. In Krabi, a farang woman was found dead by the beach, in 3 inches of water. Police didn't investigate, saying it was a drowning and possibly a suicide. In another part of Krabi, a pretty Dutch young woman reported being roughly raped while on the way back to her g.h., having accepted a motorbike ride with a Thai guy who had been her trekking guide earlier. The Thai initially admitted the rape, then changed his mind the next morning. Police let him out and told him not to do it again. If RTP don't want to be scoffed at for being inept, they've got to do their jobs objectively and professionally.

[AleG]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-backpackers-murdered-thailand-police-4266308

SUNDAY PM - [/size]Hannah arrives at Koh Tao with around 50 other western travellers and heads for Sairee beach. She meets David at a beachside party[/size]

MONDAY 1AM - Hannah and David are seen leaving the bar and heading towards Hat Sai Ri beach, just 100 metres away

MONDAY 5AM - A man is seen leaving the same party and is caught acting suspiciously on CCTV. He is walking back and forth outside a business premises near the beach

This is the first time I have read any report that says 'A man is seen leaving the same party and is caught acting suspiciously on CCTV...'

I assume this is 'running Asian man'. Why wasn't CCTV footage released of this man 'leaving the same party'?

What I find very interesting at 10:11 is the black I-phone belonging to one of the victims. Undamaged.....

PAY-iphone-found-by-Thai-Police.jpg

The caption for that picture is:

"Another still shows an iPhone believed to have been found in one of a suspect's home.

It's understood this belongs to one of the victims."

That's from the 16th of September, that phone was taken from three suspects shown on the previous entry on that timeline, they were subsequently cleared of any involvement so no, that was not David Miller's phone; just the press jumping the gun with speculation that now, ten months on is thrown again into the mix to muddle things up.

Here's the article about the three men in question being detained:

"More than 30 police officers from the Ko Pha-ngan Island Police Station raided a worker's bungalow near the crime scene earlier today, and detained three Myanmar workers, after witnesses revealed that the three suspects were drinking alcoholic drinks near the site during the time the murders took place.

The police confiscated four mobile phones from the suspects, one of which was a broken iPhone, and will examine them to determine if any of the phones belonged to the murdered victims."

They were cleared by the next day:

"Three male Burmese migrant workers were held for questioning but ruled out of the probe later yesterday, southern regional police commander Panya Maman told AFP.

“They were very far from the scene … it was probably not them,” he said, adding that DNA samples had been collected from the men."

[AleG]

I have stayed out of this subject post for a while due to several reasons. My total respect goes out to those of you that have persevered in fighting for justice in this case. So many posters on here have continuously put forward there thoughts and opinions on what's happened in this tragic and brutal case. There's also been the very few posters for what ever reason feel they have to derail the forum whenever possible. It's sad that justice in this case for Hannah and David has been obstructed by other agendas and the possible wrongfully sentence of the B2 and the anguish of them and there families. And as for Hannah and David's parents and family I despair for how they must feel especially as the trial has taken its course. From allegedly saying they were hopefull that justice would be done must be totally confused and feel badly let down by the Thai police and authorities. I can say this , and before any of the RTP defenders come at me, as many have said and I have myself stated previously up this date still NO evidence has been produced or offered into the case that remotely would suggest any involvement by the B2. All the pages on this topic and pouring out of opinions and thoughts on what might have happened and failings in procedures have come to nothing apart from making many of us feel we are helping in solving this crime and the possible further one of innocents found guilty. People on here really do care, I know that for sure, and the injustices that abound in the Thai police and justice system have for many been a cause of so much incredulation and amazement. And yes even criminality by the powers that be. Will it ever change? .For those you have fought so hard and long I feel it will and this trial is a watershed I hope that shows up all that's wrong in policing and courts in this country. The RTP have been shown up in lacking even the basic skill set and ability to even muster a half decent case when the questions have been asked and it's clear to me it hasn't happened very often if at all where they have been taken to task and actually had to justify there procedures and decisions. It's very very clear that they haven't a clue how to correctly investigate a crime of this magnitude and seriousness and have been found wanting in every aspect. The cover up daily continues but the good people who have fought this case in here and the likes of Andy Hall I salute you all. Do you, and have you ,made a difference. Dam right you have ! I'm sure of that. It's not going to happen over night but the awareness in the failures of the RTP is there for all to see !! It's no longer enough to say it's like this because we say so ! No evidence ! Up to now, how many days in court, how many witnesses,? What happened to the 65 alleged witness for the prosecution ! The finest defense in this case has been the prosecution. What will happen. The defense will present there case in a professional way as would be expected. And it will go to appeal! Saving face and all that. In any civilized society it would have never made it to trial. And if it did in any civilised society it would have been thrown out in the first weeks.! It's a hot potato and nobody knows what to do least of all the RTP with there 'perfect case'. So hang in there guys, you have made a difference and I know the majority just want justice for Hannah and David regardless of what that means but just don't feel the B2 represents that justice. Bring on the defense !

I'm going to just point out that you admit of not knowing what all the 65 witnesses (66 now it seems) testified yet decided that no evidence was presented, just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Evidence was presented, the phone that some are trying very hard to pretend doesn't matter, DNA evidence, CCTV footage and witness testimony.

Of course it's up to the judge to decide if that evidence warrants a guilt conviction but simply declaring that no evidence was presented is just not true.

[balo]

You lot are going OTT about this. Rambling on and and on and on. 73 pages of rambling - most of which is silly.

Leave it for a couple of days, sleep, and then come back. And continue your ramblings.

We all want what is right, but just leave it for a moment and stop arguing over this and that and the other.

If it wasn't too much bother for you to actually read about the topic, you would know that not everybody who posts here wants what is right. That is why there are so many pages.

Not true at all, we all want to solve the crime so David and Hannah will have justice , we just have different opinions , the reason why we have 73 pages.

[Fat Haggis]

I have stayed out of this subject post for a while due to several reasons. My total respect goes out to those of you that have persevered in fighting for justice in this case. So many posters on here have continuously put forward there thoughts and opinions on what's happened in this tragic and brutal case. There's also been the very few posters for what ever reason feel they have to derail the forum whenever possible. It's sad that justice in this case for Hannah and David has been obstructed by other agendas and the possible wrongfully sentence of the B2 and the anguish of them and there families. And as for Hannah and David's parents and family I despair for how they must feel especially as the trial has taken its course. From allegedly saying they were hopefull that justice would be done must be totally confused and feel badly let down by the Thai police and authorities. I can say this , and before any of the RTP defenders come at me, as many have said and I have myself stated previously up this date still NO evidence has been produced or offered into the case that remotely would suggest any involvement by the B2. All the pages on this topic and pouring out of opinions and thoughts on what might have happened and failings in procedures have come to nothing apart from making many of us feel we are helping in solving this crime and the possible further one of innocents found guilty. People on here really do care, I know that for sure, and the injustices that abound in the Thai police and justice system have for many been a cause of so much incredulation and amazement. And yes even criminality by the powers that be. Will it ever change? .For those you have fought so hard and long I feel it will and this trial is a watershed I hope that shows up all that's wrong in policing and courts in this country. The RTP have been shown up in lacking even the basic skill set and ability to even muster a half decent case when the questions have been asked and it's clear to me it hasn't happened very often if at all where they have been taken to task and actually had to justify there procedures and decisions. It's very very clear that they haven't a clue how to correctly investigate a crime of this magnitude and seriousness and have been found wanting in every aspect. The cover up daily continues but the good people who have fought this case in here and the likes of Andy Hall I salute you all. Do you, and have you ,made a difference. Dam right you have ! I'm sure of that. It's not going to happen over night but the awareness in the failures of the RTP is there for all to see !! It's no longer enough to say it's like this because we say so ! No evidence ! Up to now, how many days in court, how many witnesses,? What happened to the 65 alleged witness for the prosecution ! The finest defense in this case has been the prosecution. What will happen. The defense will present there case in a professional way as would be expected. And it will go to appeal! Saving face and all that. In any civilized society it would have never made it to trial. And if it did in any civilised society it would have been thrown out in the first weeks.! It's a hot potato and nobody knows what to do least of all the RTP with there 'perfect case'. So hang in there guys, you have made a difference and I know the majority just want justice for Hannah and David regardless of what that means but just don't feel the B2 represents that justice. Bring on the defense !

I'm going to just point out that you admit of not knowing what all the 65 witnesses (66 now it seems) testified yet decided that no evidence was presented, just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Evidence was presented, the phone that some are trying very hard to pretend doesn't matter, DNA evidence, CCTV footage and witness testimony.

Of course it's up to the judge to decide if that evidence warrants a guilt conviction but simply declaring that no evidence was presented is just not true.

And of course YOU DO know that all 65/66 witnesses testified? And YOU DO know the evidence submitted and explained, especially about the mobile phone because you're actually at the trial Alex?

You'll get splinters clutching at all these straws one day Alex.

You're one of the few people who seem to believe that the prosecutions case has been flawless, and rock solid, and right from day 1 you had something against the B2, and were "very protective" towards Koh Tao.

[StealthEnergiser]

Not being a lawyer I know everyone is talking about the phone's etc but i was thinking if the DNA is not a match and the defence show proof of that on their first day they take the stand would it be likely the judge could call a mistrial or would they continue on with the the rest of the charges ?

[fireplay]

I have stayed out of this subject post for a while due to several reasons. My total respect goes out to those of you that have persevered in fighting for justice in this case. So many posters on here have continuously put forward there thoughts and opinions on what's happened in this tragic and brutal case. There's also been the very few posters for what ever reason feel they have to derail the forum whenever possible. It's sad that justice in this case for Hannah and David has been obstructed by other agendas and the possible wrongfully sentence of the B2 and the anguish of them and there families. And as for Hannah and David's parents and family I despair for how they must feel especially as the trial has taken its course. From allegedly saying they were hopefull that justice would be done must be totally confused and feel badly let down by the Thai police and authorities. I can say this , and before any of the RTP defenders come at me, as many have said and I have myself stated previously up this date still NO evidence has been produced or offered into the case that remotely would suggest any involvement by the B2. All the pages on this topic and pouring out of opinions and thoughts on what might have happened and failings in procedures have come to nothing apart from making many of us feel we are helping in solving this crime and the possible further one of innocents found guilty. People on here really do care, I know that for sure, and the injustices that abound in the Thai police and justice system have for many been a cause of so much incredulation and amazement. And yes even criminality by the powers that be. Will it ever change? .For those you have fought so hard and long I feel it will and this trial is a watershed I hope that shows up all that's wrong in policing and courts in this country. The RTP have been shown up in lacking even the basic skill set and ability to even muster a half decent case when the questions have been asked and it's clear to me it hasn't happened very often if at all where they have been taken to task and actually had to justify there procedures and decisions. It's very very clear that they haven't a clue how to correctly investigate a crime of this magnitude and seriousness and have been found wanting in every aspect. The cover up daily continues but the good people who have fought this case in here and the likes of Andy Hall I salute you all. Do you, and have you ,made a difference. Dam right you have ! I'm sure of that. It's not going to happen over night but the awareness in the failures of the RTP is there for all to see !! It's no longer enough to say it's like this because we say so ! No evidence ! Up to now, how many days in court, how many witnesses,? What happened to the 65 alleged witness for the prosecution ! The finest defense in this case has been the prosecution. What will happen. The defense will present there case in a professional way as would be expected. And it will go to appeal! Saving face and all that. In any civilized society it would have never made it to trial. And if it did in any civilised society it would have been thrown out in the first weeks.! It's a hot potato and nobody knows what to do least of all the RTP with there 'perfect case'. So hang in there guys, you have made a difference and I know the majority just want justice for Hannah and David regardless of what that means but just don't feel the B2 represents that justice. Bring on the defense !

I'm going to just point out that you admit of not knowing what all the 65 witnesses (66 now it seems) testified yet decided that no evidence was presented, just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Evidence was presented, the phone that some are trying very hard to pretend doesn't matter, DNA evidence, CCTV footage and witness testimony.

Of course it's up to the judge to decide if that evidence warrants a guilt conviction but simply declaring that no evidence was presented is just not true.

Wait a second...did 65 witnesses to the prosecution actually testify? The last i saw the running count was around 15 or so.

[thailandchilli]

I'm going to just point out that you admit of not knowing what all the 65 witnesses (66 now it seems) testified yet decided that no evidence was presented, just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Evidence was presented, the phone that some are trying very hard to pretend doesn't matter, DNA evidence, CCTV footage and witness testimony.

Of course it's up to the judge to decide if that evidence warrants a guilt conviction but simply declaring that no evidence was presented is just not true.

AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact and I've seen no report on that, as far as I'm aware not even a third of the number have actually taken the witness stand.

Edited September 1, 2015 by thailandchilli

[harrry]

< snip >

If I lived on the island and believed in Truth & Justice I would make some arrangement to provide any genuinely compelling information I had that would spring the 2 falsely accused or else I just don't care about Truth & Justice.

Sounds good Crab, but not believable.

< snip 2 >

So how much of the copious amounts that you post is believable?

If you Mr. Boomer ran a tourist attraction on Koh Tao instead on near Chiang Rai and still had your overwhelming pledge to Truth & Justice and that you had first-hand slam-dunk information that the 2 Burmese accused were innocent of all these crimes, would you sit on that info and let the young men be convected because to do otherwise might jeopardize your wall climbing business yet still claim that you are dedicated to Truth & Justice??

You can ask me questions, but your don't have to try to bring personal details of my life in to this.

highly wrong, and although mr b may sometimes be accused of using all ways to publicise his business he always seems to act in a manner which fits within his moral code which is highly developed. i have no doubt his business would not be a consideration if a person's future was at stake.

[GOLDBUGGY]

There has been so much misinformation (particularly on this thread and especially the last few posts) about this phone that I doubt if anyone remembers exactly what was said and what is actually true.

Whatever the truth about the phone, it is still, at the end of the day, just circumstantial evidence in a trial about rape and murder (it's not a trial about a phone theft). If this is the only solid "damning" evidence the prosecution has, then I can't possibly imagine a conviction based solely on this.

Ah, but one of the charges Wai Phyo faces is the theft of a mobile phone and sunglasses from David Miller. Which reminds me, have said sunglasses been produced as evidence yet?

That is a good question about the sun glasses. I never saw it mentioned that they were ever found or produced as evidence.

I do recall from a media report from days gone by that when David went back to the Aussie Bar first and when he found it closed he stopped in to buy a pair of sun glasses. I recall this as I thought it odd at the time he would be doing that so late at night. But then I have been known wear them to then.

He then proceeded to the AC Bar where he met up with Hannah. So I guess it stands to reason that if he did not forget them in the AC Bar, or loose them on the way to the AC Bar or Crime Scene he would have had them with him. But never heard a word after that. .

Zaw and Win are also facing charges of illegally entering the Kingdom of Thailand, residing in Thailand without permission, and nighttime theft for allegedly stealing Miller's mobile phone and sunglasses.

Just another of the mysteries that has not been revealed in court http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1418036469&section=00

Yes. Good Point again.

But I must admit I thought exactly the same way to until someone here surprised me, and to my embarrassment, although I like to feel I stand corrected, proved to me that at the December 26th Trial, "Zaw" brought in his Passport that proved he was here in Thailand Legally. Having a Work Permit may be a different matter though, but I can't say for sure he did or didnt have this either. .

[AleG]

I'm going to just point out that you admit of not knowing what all the 65 witnesses (66 now it seems) testified yet decided that no evidence was presented, just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Evidence was presented, the phone that some are trying very hard to pretend doesn't matter, DNA evidence, CCTV footage and witness testimony.

Of course it's up to the judge to decide if that evidence warrants a guilt conviction but simply declaring that no evidence was presented is just not true.

And of course YOU DO know that all 65/66 witnesses testified? And YOU DO know the evidence submitted and explained, especially about the mobile phone because you're actually at the trial Alex?

You'll get splinters clutching at all these straws one day Alex.

You're one of the few people who seem to believe that the prosecutions case has been flawless, and rock solid, and right from day 1 you had something against the B2, and were "very protective" towards Koh Tao.

No, I don't know if every single one of the 65 witnesses the prosecution filed with the court took the stand, but I'm not the one making claims about how many of them, if any, didn't show up. It's a matter of epistemic responsibility, you know? Not claiming to know something that is not actually known.

For the record:

This is false: "You're one of the few people who seem to believe that the prosecutions case has been flawless"

This is false too: "right from day 1 you had something against the B2"

And the insinuations in this are also false: "were "very protective" towards Koh Tao"

[AleG]

I'm going to just point out that you admit of not knowing what all the 65 witnesses (66 now it seems) testified yet decided that no evidence was presented, just because you don't know something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Evidence was presented, the phone that some are trying very hard to pretend doesn't matter, DNA evidence, CCTV footage and witness testimony.

Of course it's up to the judge to decide if that evidence warrants a guilt conviction but simply declaring that no evidence was presented is just not true.

AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact and I've seen no report on that, as far as I'm aware not even a third of the number have actually taken the witness stand.

"As far as I know" is the key phrase there, once again I'm not the one making claims about how many witnesses have or have nottestified, so again, this is false "AleG please tell me where you got the information that all 65 witnesses have actually appeared in court, its only that your stating it as fact" because I stated no such thing.

[JLCrab]

JL Crab:

I know but I was making an earnest regarding the case in that everybody says to follow all the millions of baht in bribe money that has been paid but not one person has every been able to show that 50 satang has been paid just a lot lot of reasons why not even one person has done something stupid to reveal that any money has indeed been paid.

Ryk: Thats a fair point to ask. I have no opinion (or proof) that any money has been paid or not, but if I was to come up with a reason why we are not aware of it it would be:

Unlikely that anyone will announce publicly that any such transactions occurred and it would require some investigation into the alleged paper trail, the question is, who would be doing this investigation, the cops? Probably not so that leaves journalists. Can we make any conclusions from this?

Thank you. So what I said was true. I don't care what's unlikely or not. Some things like that are discovered when someone does something stupid. And I don't think the KT people are all that smart.