Will or Power of Attorney?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Amphur wills can be written in English by the will writer, though obviously there should be a Thai translation done as well.

One kind of amphur will would need to be chiefly in Thai, since the "public" version is verbally read out for the amphur officer and two typically Thai witnesses to hear and acknowledge.

But there's also a "private" version of the amphur will where you write the will document yourself or have it written by an attorney or whomever, and then it is sealed in an envelope at the amphur office, and the witnesses simply confirm the placement/filing of the document. But no one else knows or is told the contents of the will itself. And you and/or your beneficiary get a receipt to retrieve the document in the event of your passing.

And yes, in BKK, there are not amphurs per se like there are upcountry, but there are the equivalent kinds of local government offices by the name you mentioned that do the same kinds of things, including handling the filing of wills.

[elgordo38]

Somewhere here somebody used the phrase "competent lawyer" and I had to run to the bathroom and throw up. I have only once in my lifetime run into a competent lawyer the rest well are SITG. First word snakes last one grass. I am trying to think of a worster word but cannot. I maybe will post it later after some thought. Hmm on second thought that might upset the Mods. They are the lowest of the low in my opinion no not mods lawyers. Do we ever get to vote for the best mods? Tywais is my favorite and Charlie a close 2nd both great guys.

Edited August 30, 2015 by elgordo38

[chiang mai]

Alcohol for pain relief is not illegal!

[Lizard2010]

My daughter had just draw up one for me

Should be ok for Thailand as i have Australian bank Acc

She is a Lawyer so hope mine is good for Thailand

As im coming to live in Chiang Mai next month

So she wants me covered

[NancyL]

After being directed here from another thread by TGJIB, it seems that what I need is what you guys describe as an 'Ampur Will' My wife has been doing as bit of research and we can add a couple of pointers that may help others contemplating one of these wills. Firstly we live in Bangkok where there are of course, no Ampurs. The equivalent competent authority here is the 'Kairt' (I've no idea how to correctly render this into Roman script). And one document that is required and I don't think has been mentioned above is a doctors certificate testifying that the person drawing up the will is of sound mind (oh well, I guess I'll have to slip the quack a few Baht!!). And our Kairt (Phaya Thai) will provide 2 witnesses for 50 Baht each.

Looks like all systems go, thanks, once again to Thai Visa!!!

Yes, I'd almost forgotten this aspect of filing an Amphur Will, which would help to negate the argument that we couldn't possibly understand what we were doing because the Amphur Will is in Thai.

In the U.S. it's up to someone challenging a Will to prove that the person writing the Will wasn't of sound mind that the time the Will was written. That's difficult to do after someone has passed and results in lawyers earning big bucks when families have protracted court battles about this point. So, Hubby and I were pleased to learn that in Thailand, when someone files an Amphur Will, they have to have a psychiatrist's certificate that you are of "sound mind" and understand what you are doing when you write the Will. What a great way to avoid a court battle after the person has passed.

So, as part of the process of getting everything organized for our Amphur Wills, Hubby and I trotted into CM Ram and said we needed certificates for Amphur Wills and we were booked in to see a psychiatrist. Both together and individually. Whoah! What are we crazy? The guy was really calm and serious and spoke very good English. He started out with what seemed like "small talk" about "why are you here today" and I determined he had lived in the U.S. and I started on a monologue about the differences between organizing a Final Will in the U.S. vs. Thailand. But then I stopped and said "but you probably know all this already, don't you?" And he said "yes, but I want to make sure that you do."

Edited August 30, 2015 by NancyL

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Nancy, in doing yours up in CM...

1. did you do the public (read aloud) or private (sealed document) will version?

2. how did you handle the English / Thai language issue for your documents?

Thanks!

[Jip99]

Amphur wills can be written in English by the will writer, though obviously there should be a Thai translation done as well.

One kind of amphur will would need to be chiefly in Thai, since the "public" version is verbally read out for the amphur officer and two typically Thai witnesses to hear and acknowledge.

But there's also a "private" version of the amphur will where you write the will document yourself or have it written by an attorney or whomever, and then it is sealed in an envelope at the amphur office, and the witnesses simply confirm the placement/filing of the document. But no one else knows or is told the contents of the will itself. And you and/or your beneficiary get a receipt to retrieve the document in the event of your passing.

And yes, in BKK, there are not amphurs per se like there are upcountry, but there are the equivalent kinds of local government offices by the name you mentioned that do the same kinds of things, including handling the filing of wills.

I am yet to be convinced of the benefits of the amphur Will.

Could someone please enlighten me.

[NancyL]

OK, the purpose of our Amphur Wills is so that the surviving spouse can gain access to the other's bank accounts. That's it. Despite being of advanced age and on our first marriages, we've never had children, don't own any real estate anywhere and we have a U.S. Final Will that protects our U.S. assets. The only purpose of our Amphur Will is so that the surviving spouse can gain access to the other's Bangkok Bank account. That's it! No vehicle, condo, nothing that is owned in Thailand.

So, you see, an Amphur Will makes perfect sense in our situation. No one is going to contest our estate!

However, if you have several children, spouses, houses, vehicles, passports, bank accounts in multiple banks, etc, etc then the Amphur Will may not be the best way to go. Especially if the children and former spouses are combative.

[Mapguy]

OK, the purpose of our Amphur Wills is so that the surviving spouse can gain access to the other's bank accounts. That's it. Despite being of advanced age and on our first marriages, we've never had children, don't own any real estate anywhere and we have a U.S. Final Will that protects our U.S. assets. The only purpose of our Amphur Will is so that the surviving spouse can gain access to the other's Bangkok Bank account. That's it! No vehicle, condo, nothing that is owned in Thailand.

So, you see, an Amphur Will makes perfect sense in our situation. No one is going to contest our estate!

However, if you have several children, spouses, houses, vehicles, passports, bank accounts in multiple banks, etc, etc then the Amphur Will may not be the best way to go. Especially if the children and former spouses are combative.

What is pointed out here is what people should basically remember about amphur wills --- and the fact that you also need a medical report as to your mental competence! They are fine for very simple situations --- especially for expats, but they can be much too simple. That's why it can be foolish not to consult a lawyer, especially if you have relatives (or others) who might challenge the will.

NancyL has also mentioned previously in one context or other that it is very smart to know your local bank manager and have your bank manager aware of your situation. It is.

The same is true for powers of attorney in Thailand that involve management of bank accounts in case of incompetence due to poor health or unavailability. And it is smart to leave a copy of your power of attorney with your local bank to place in your file. If you hop, skip and jump among various banks, you are losing a valuable ally in case of confusion when you might well need help urgently. Here's a simple example of "unavailability." You are traveling abroad (out of Thailand) and you need funds urgently since you get in trouble for one reason or other or have an accident and have inadequate insurance coverage for whatever reason.

In these days of egregious fraud and legal challenges, an amphur will or an "ATM solution" is definitely not really reliable for estate planning or providing for urgent personal needs. Banks can be understandably quite cautious when it comes to accessing banking accounts of deceased, incompetent or unavailable account holders as well as such apparently simple matters as selling a car, settling a housing contract, or whatever.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In these days of egregious fraud and legal challenges, an amphur will or an "ATM solution" is definitely not really reliable for estate planning or providing for urgent personal needs. Banks can be understandably quite cautious when it comes to accessing banking accounts of deceased, incompetent or unavailable account holders as well as such apparently simple matters as selling a car, settling a housing contract, or whatever.

I've never advocated relying on the informal post-death ATM withdrawal approach as a means of dependable estate planning.

But, a properly executed amphur will will be just as valid and legal as any of the other methods spelled out in Thai law. And may be accepted by your local bank or may be required to be validated by probate in court, depending on the bank involved.

If you have any actual relevant facts to support your contrary opinion on this, please do present them.

[chiang mai]

"But a properly executed Amphur will", written in native language and for a non-contentious estate of limited value,"will will be just as" appropriate and "valid and legal as any of the other methods spelled out in Thai law. And may be accepted by your local bank or may be required to be validated by probate in court, depending on the bank involved".

I could agree your statement if it were modified as above.

.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

written in native language and for a non-contentious estate of limited value...

I'm going to leave your language issue contention alone, because that subject has already been discussed and debated above.

As for the "non-contentious estate of limited value" notion you put forward, I don't know of any reason that a properly executed amphur will would be any more vulnerable in a contentious situation than any of the other last will preparation methods allowed under Thai law.

[Mapguy]

TallGuy...

You are "challenging" the wrong person! (At least it seems like a challenge!)

If you are comfortable with an amphur will, do one. I am not an attorney dreaming up horror stories to drum up business. Clearly, some people are not aware of some potential hazards of poorly-executed wills, especially many English-speaking foreigners who inhabit ThaiVisa. It obviously depends on the personal circumstances of the individual.

There are various kinds of acceptable wills under Thai law. Anyone can refer to Thai Law for Foreigners (ISBN 978-1-887521-57-4), Paiboon Publishing, 2008, to learn about them and to get a general overview of personal and family law. There are also web-published translations of the Civil and Commercial Code. There are also some excellent summaries by various law firms. All this won't make you a lawyer, but you'll know what questions to ask one.

So, you can write you own will, if you wish. Register it at an amphur if you wish. No actual need, really. Lots of alternatives. My concern is that people should be careful and that an amphur will might well be too simple a solution, especially for foreigners who have more than the simplest estate. These are the ones, it seems, ready to call all lawyers callous bastards or who simply approach the situation wondering how little money they can spend. Good wills, actually, are cheap.

One party who might be hurt is the relatively unsophisticated Thai wife (or "partner") who marries a foreigner but then is left adrift wondering what to do and how to do it. Some foreigners don't have much of anything, so so what?! Pass the ATM card and code, I suppose ...and so on. I suppose some foreigners might be living some sort of "rental life" in which the partner could be left adrift. But there are also most foreigners in relationships who want to pay attention to the needs of those who now depend upon them. For those, maybe a simple amphur will works, but caution is advised.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Yes, it was a challenge, to go beyond the vague generalization you posted earlier, and repeated in different form here in the just above post, re amphur wills.

You just repeated a new version of the same generalization, with again nothing factual or specific to back up the unsupported claim you're making.

"Might well be too simple a solution"???? Says who, other than Mapguy and perhaps more than a few Thai attorneys who no doubt will invariably insist that Thai wills must be prepared by an attorney to be valid. Somehow, no one should be surprised to hear that. But neither should they necessarily believe it.

And the factual basis for that is, in case anyone should ask, that the Thai law relating to wills specifically includes methods that involve nothing other than the will writer and witnesses. Zero requirement that any attorney be involved in the drafting, unless of course the drafter wants to involve them.

Edited August 31, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Mapguy]

You obviously didn't read what I wrote and apparently are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Good grief and good night!

Edited August 31, 2015 by Mapguy

[Jip99]

OK, the purpose of our Amphur Wills is so that the surviving spouse can gain access to the other's bank accounts. That's it. Despite being of advanced age and on our first marriages, we've never had children, don't own any real estate anywhere and we have a U.S. Final Will that protects our U.S. assets. The only purpose of our Amphur Will is so that the surviving spouse can gain access to the other's Bangkok Bank account. That's it! No vehicle, condo, nothing that is owned in Thailand.

So, you see, an Amphur Will makes perfect sense in our situation. No one is going to contest our estate!

However, if you have several children, spouses, houses, vehicles, passports, bank accounts in multiple banks, etc, etc then the Amphur Will may not be the best way to go. Especially if the children and former spouses are combative.

Thank you Nancy.

I understand about the simplicity of your situation and the fact that there will never be a challenge.

What I don't see is what an 'amphur Will' achieves that an A4 sheet of paper setting out your wishes can't.

A bank is still going to insist on probate if the balances are sufficiently high enough. This will likely require the involvement of a solictor to prove the Will at a local court.

In your your case knowledge of each other's PIN numbers/online banking codes could be a practical solution. Using a joint account (either to sign) for holding your funds outside the restrictions of immigration extension requirements may also help.

[chiang mai]

One of the advantages of using a lawyer to perform legal tasks, over and above any other method of accomplishing them, is that lawyers generally know not only the "how" but also the "why" and are up to date with latest legal precedents, case in point:

in the UK it is possible to avoid legal fees by writing your own will and blank will forms or templates are readily available in many shops, I equate this, rightly or wrongly with the Amphur will. But the average soon to be dead person (STBDP) can be forgiven for not knowing that, following recent successful legal challenges, it is no longer sufficient for an STBDP to merely explain who they wish to leave their assets to, they must now state who they don't want to leave assets to and why (in the case of near relatives) and prepare additional parallel documentation to support their wishes. I can only imagine that a similar scenario must exist in Thailand whereby Thai law undergoes change and only a lawyer would normally be aware of that change. For me, that's the reason why I think that using a lawyer is a safe and assured way of doing things, that is not to say that there aren't other ways but they will never be as safe and as assured. When I think of the options here I think many people are potentially being "penny wise and pound foolish".

[NancyL]

Yes, to my way of thinking the Amphur Will is somewhat similar to one of those fill-in-the-blank Wills that you can purchase at a stationary store or download on-line. In fact, it was on the computer at the Amphur office and we sat across from the nice lady as she filled in the blanks with our information.

But, I think it's "better" than one of those downloaded forms or a simple piece of A4 paper, because it comes from the Amphur and has gov't stamps. Plus, the requirement that you have to get a medical certification that you're of sound mind. I expect that my local bank will accept it without insisting on probate. They didn't require probate for a Final Will with the case where I was executor and the balances were fairly high.

Knowing each other's PINs is definitely NOT the way to go. Especially if the funds are in sole named accounts (like for retirement visas) or in "fixed accounts" that don't have ATM access. Joint accounts are frozen upon death of one account holder and it's illegal for the survivor to try to access the account until the bank is satisfied the Final Will and ownership questions have been resolved.

I'm not an advocate of Amphur Will for anything more complex than what Hubby and I have -- just a few bank accounts. But, it's a option that's better than writing down our wishes on a piece of paper.

Edited September 1, 2015 by NancyL

[millwall_fan]

My needs regarding a will is rather like NancyL's: just bank accounts and also being on my first marriage, no-one is going to contest it. So an Ampur sounds fine. As is often the case with Mapguy, he has managed to turn the most innocuous thread into an argument.

Just one thought: you chose to go to CM Ram hospital where a detailed psychological report was compiled, presumably at considerable cost. I guess you could have gone to the Klaimor or similar and got a valid certificate in a few minutes after a blood pressure check and a torch being shone into your mouth for 100 Baht or so. Would that be the case as far as you know?

Edited September 1, 2015 by millwall_fan

[harrry]

Actually, it depends upon how complex your situation is in Thailand. If your only assets are bank accounts, for example, your Australian Will is probably going to work, especially if the local bank manager knows you, your girlfriend and you've made your intentions very clear to your bank manager.

If the situation is more complex,with vehicles, condo, etc, then yes either you should have a Thai Will or else your executor will have to hire a Thai attorney and go to the hassle of having your Australian Will translated and probated thru the Thai courts. You could make things easier by having a Thai Will in place before you go.

Khun Sumalee at 29Tanin.com is recommended by many expats for this type of work.

the cost of a relatively basic will should be 2000baht but many will charge foreigners much much more. 5000 is reasonable and 10000 possible if it also includes translations and lodgement at the amphur.

you can do a will free or a couple of hundred baht at the ampire and in some ways is the best. you will need a doctors letter for this saying you are sane and copies of all the bank books vehicles and propery you need included,

i am constantly shocked by the charges we are expected to pay for legal services.

quotes for my recent divorce ranged from 150000 baht to 15000 baht. i eventually paid 15000 baht and5000 baht for him to obtin all the paperwork etc. one morning in court and i was treated with the utmost respect and politeness by the judge. i did not need a translator but this would increase the fee y 10000 or so.

[chiang mai]

Harry, have you read any of this thread!

[harrry]

Harry, have you read any of this thread!

yes i have and i was refering to the strupid price of 17000 quoted for a will here. have you read any of the thread chiang mai...or do you need your glasses checked.

When I visited a legal service in Chiang Mai, I was told I needed a Thai will. I was somewhat shocked by the quote - 17000 baht, when my Australian will cost the equivalent of 8000 baht.

from the first post.

Edited September 1, 2015 by harrry

[chiang mai]

Harry, have you read any of this thread!

yes i have and i was refering to the strupid price of 17000 quoted for a will here. have you read any of the thread chiang mai...or do you need your glasses checked.

When I visited a legal service in Chiang Mai, I was told I needed a Thai will. I was somewhat shocked by the quote - 17000 baht, when my Australian will cost the equivalent of 8000 baht.

from the first post.

I was actually referring to the most recent and lengthy discussion on Amphur Wills:

"you can do a will free or a couple of hundred baht at the ampire and in some ways is the best. you will need a doctors letter for this saying you are sane and copies of all the bank books vehicles and propery you need included",

[chiang mai]

My needs regarding a will is rather like NancyL's: just bank accounts and also being on my first marriage, no-one is going to contest it. So an Ampur sounds fine. As is often the case with Mapguy, he has managed to turn the most innocuous thread into an argument.

Just one thought: you chose to go to CM Ram hospital where a detailed psychological report was compiled, presumably at considerable cost. I guess you could have gone to the Klaimor or similar and got a valid certificate in a few minutes after a blood pressure check and a torch being shone into your mouth for 100 Baht or so. Would that be the case as far as you know?

I do think that Mapguys points were very fair and entirely valid, people reading this thread need to do so in the context of a very simple will vs anything more complex, the latter can lend itself to an Amphur will and that was the point made by many people here, including Mapguy.

[harrry]

Harry, have you read any of this thread!

yes i have and i was refering to the strupid price of 17000 quoted for a will here. have you read any of the thread chiang mai...or do you need your glasses checked.

When I visited a legal service in Chiang Mai, I was told I needed a Thai will. I was somewhat shocked by the quote - 17000 baht, when my Australian will cost the equivalent of 8000 baht.

from the first post.

I was actually referring to the most recent and lengthy discussion on Amphur Wills:

"you can do a will free or a couple of hundred baht at the ampire and in some ways is the best. you will need a doctors letter for this saying you are sane and copies of all the bank books vehicles and propery you need included",

doing a will at the amphur means telling the nai ampur what you need and him writing it down and checking the documents. it is very suted for complex issues. however slipping a will writen by anyoneone into an envelope and giving it to the nai ampur for storage does not guarantee its validity. it is just a method of enduring it can be found.

if the will has been written in english or any other foreign language it has to be translated to thai before being probated and that is the only valid document.

a few facts

[chiang mai]

yes i have and i was refering to the strupid price of 17000 quoted for a will here. have you read any of the thread chiang mai...or do you need your glasses checked.

When I visited a legal service in Chiang Mai, I was told I needed a Thai will. I was somewhat shocked by the quote - 17000 baht, when my Australian will cost the equivalent of 8000 baht.

from the first post.

I was actually referring to the most recent and lengthy discussion on Amphur Wills:

"you can do a will free or a couple of hundred baht at the ampire and in some ways is the best. you will need a doctors letter for this saying you are sane and copies of all the bank books vehicles and propery you need included",

doing a will at the amphur means telling the nai ampur what you need and him writing it down and checking the documents. it is very suted for complex issues. however slipping a will writen by anyoneone into an envelope and giving it to the nai ampur for storage does not guarantee its validity. it is just a method of enduring it can be found.

if the will has been written in english or any other foreign language it has to be translated to thai before being probated and that is the only valid document.

a few facts

OK that's it, I'm out of here, I can only go round in circles so many times, byee all!

[NancyL]

A few points ---

Actually the fee for the psychiatric assessment that Hubby and I were "of sound mind" wasn't very high at CM Ram -- something like 400 baht and the doc was much more thorough than simply taking our BP and weight. (of course that was done. it's done every time you go into the door there, I think)

Not all Final Wills have to go thru probate. Bangkok Bank accepted a Final Will, done here in Thailand, in English, for the case where I was the executor. It was accepted to close out bank accounts of the deceased with balances that were high enough that approval was needed by the head office in Bangkok. The process took about a month before funds were released and I needed to produce a "guaranteer" who was known to the local branch bank -- someone who was able to vouch for the intent of the deceased in writing the Will and also someone who had accounts at Bangkok Bank that exceed the amount of the funds being claimed. This seems to be standard practice, because since this I've severed as "guaranteer" for other executors who wanted to avoid probate. Apparently the "guaranteer" is taking the risk that no one is going to show up to contest the Will with the bank.