Starting problem

[cheeryble]

Suzuki Vitara 16v 1999

First time was a few days ago.

then yesterday.

Turned the key and a little clunk or click happened but no starter motor.

Next try it started and started ok all day.

Then today it happened.......three times.

Then started.

No whining weak turnover then start.....it either got the click and no turnover or it started.

It needs to be dealt with.

So it's a Panasonic battery with a little window and certainly shows dark blue ring around what I think I can see red........which is apparently Good.

I THINK repeat THINK it's not so old between 6 months and a year.

What do I try first ..........shorting the starter relay?

Thanks

[itsmylife]

Its time to Change a new starter , Bro .

[cheeryble]

Its time to Change a new starter , Bro .

As the starter seems to work fine the rest of the day what would be the rationale behind that please?

[itsmylife]

Its time to Change a new starter , Bro .

As the starter seems to work fine the rest of the day what would be the rationale behind that please?

Did you check any loose connection at the starter ?

Edited September 3, 2015 by itsmylife

[cheeryble]

The two cables seem tight

[Gonsalviz]

Starter solenoid or starter. Not sure if they are independent. Solenoid would be cheaper.

[ktm jeff]

Check all cables / connections , then earths - may need to add another better positioned earth . Could be a lazy starter / sticikig solenoid . A bad earth would be my guess .

[itsmylife]

99% starter need to change already .

[WarpSpeed]

Starter solenoid or starter. Not sure if they are independent. Solenoid would be cheaper.

This but is possible it's not getting good connection from the battery, check for corrosion on the terminals make sure as some have said that it has good ground connection and if that is not the cause then plan b is the solenoid but depending the car it or may not be possible to rebuild or replace the solenoid only.

[Maybole]

At that age the starter dog could be worn and jamming. Next time it happens, put the car in 2nd gear, get out and rock it back and forth. You may hear a click as it disengages, If that cures it, then remove the starter and if possible renew the gear on the end.

[ignis]

Happen twice in my lifetime on cars, both were the same problem..

Do a test, 1st in the morning, disconnect your battery, take your jump leads connect red to starter motor connection direct, the Black to the chassis, then the other ends of jump leads to Battery just hold in your hands and sort of flash test, if clunk or click = you know the problem.

Take out the starter motor, take to bits see if there is play in the end bearing, replace very very cheap repair...

overnight = the armature spindle has time to settle so is like shorting = clunk or click.. in daily uses = prefect starting as it had no time to settle..

maybe find another starter motor from a scrap yard that will fit ?

If after doing the Battery test, the starter motor runs perfect then it must be the solenoid sticking.

[edandpranee]

On my battery it shows green when fully charged and red when the battery needs charging in that little window. You might want to try charging the battery.

[cheeryble]

There's a guide next to the window with three colour States

Dark blue ring with red centre is battery good.....poorer condition the rings go white.

On checking just now I have exactly 12v before morning start.

The outer ring is definitely dark blue the centre may repeat may have a bit of red in it but it is definitely not white nor the ring surrounding which is the kiss of death.

I shall go and start it now and give the result after a cool night.

Huh!

Started first time.

[Pomthai]

Almost certainly a bad connection. Or a failing solenoid.

It is worth removing the connections of the battery, and the connections on the starter motor and solenoid and roughening them up with some sand paper and reconnecting tight. Coat with some Vaseline afterwards. Disconnect the battery first and reconnect it last to avoid the risk of shorting cables.

If after this it still happens, the dog gear could be getting stuck - that could well be easily fixed by removing the starter and cleaning the helix if its an inertia type or cleaning the slide operated by the solenoid if its that type.

There is also a possibility that the internal contacts of the electrical solenoid have got dirty over time. If your mechanically inclined, its relatively straight forward to dissemble and clean. - If you get this far, might as well replace the brushes as well.

All quite simple and I'm sure there's plenty of places that could do this for you for a tiny fraction of the cost of a replacement starter assembly. - Replacement really is a last resort and probably quite unnecessary.

[terminatorchiangmai]

Get a new battery

Happens sometimes that the life of a battery is shorter then 1 year.

Make sure you have a 1 year warranty on your new battery and let them write the date of purchase on it !.

Good luck.

[WarpSpeed]

Yes go waste money on a new battery, then come back and tell us who are better informed just how that worked out for ya?

[cheeryble]

Thanks for all the input.....though some may have been impulsive I shall do this systematically. Fact is I haven't had time to deal with it the last couple of days though it should be top of my list or one of these days I might find myself stuck.

[cheeryble]

Sounds like the solenoid if you hear a click. When it actually turns over, is it sluggish or sprightly ?

Can't totally eliminate the battery if the amps are down. That will require an amp test at a battery shop, home volt testing doesn't reveal amp storage.

It's either a click or a normal turnover not sluggish (though of course in the warm weather here engines fire up quickly).

[stubuzz]

On checking just now I have exactly 12v before morning start.

The battery is dead. A fully charged battery should be reading 12.6 - 12.7 after a 12 hour rest.

[cheeryble]

To further complicate matters I have two identical multimeters

I tired the voltage with both today.

1. 12v maybe 12.1v

2. 12.6 - 12.7v

I also cannot really observe any red in the centre of the sighting glass and wonder if this is because I am using a halogen bicycle torch or my phone torch also halogen which Gives a very blue/white light and maybe has little red in the spectrum.

There is surprisingly nothing I can find in the web about this no Panasonic sighting glass or voltage observation or panasonic car battery condition indicator and no images.

Hmmm.....

I note that there's a slot in the sighting glass for a coin and it will indeed turn.

I didn't open it just in case but wonder if this is an access point for measuring the specific gravity the old way.

As usual I don't have enough time to do this properly today :-x

Edited September 6, 2015 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

Well a week has passed with no action from me and not a hint of a problem.

Well, except the wife suggested buying a new people carrier.

What's wrong with the Vitara I asked.

It's got a starting problem she said.

[Pib]

Sounds like a starter solenoid problem. I had a similar problem around 4 years ago with my 2009 Toyota Fortuner 3.0L Diesel. Sometimes it starts like a charm in a second; other times just a click. Battery was testing good. A fully charged battery should measure 12.6 to 12.7 volts after it's had several hours to drain off "surface" charge (just turning the headlight on for about 15 seconds before starting would drain off that surface charge)...but you need an accurate multi-meter to ensure you can measure to that accuracy. But even a battery that is only around 50% charged still should crank your engine...not give you just a click.

Anyway, my problem was dirty electrical contact disk within the solenoid....parts of the disk were corroded. Whenever you engage the starter/solenoid that disk "will rotate just a little" to ensure it's not always contacting at the same point on the disk...makes it last much longer than the same high current/amps going through the same spot over and over. Took the starter out...removed the solenoid that was integrated into the starter assembly and "parts of the disk were corroded"....cleaned the disk up with a wire brush....reassembled/reinstalled everything...been working fine for the last 4 years.

It's kinda a roll of the dice as to when that selonoid disk will rotate to the point where it's corroded and you just get the click....try starting a few more times and it may rotate just a little to a point on the disk that is clean---and your machine starts.

Seen this type of solenoid problem many times over my lifetime with numerous vehicles I've owned since I hang onto my vehicles for a long time and maintain/repair them myself whenever possible.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Pib

[cheeryble]

Nice explanation Pib and believable.

Odd thing is that each of the three occasions this happened it did in fact start, twice on the second go and once on the third or fourth go.

Still I guess that's possible.

I'm guessing the starter is easy to get out if the car is up off the ground,

I used to also do my own repairs largely but kinda given it up usually especially where it's so cheap.

So I think I'll carry on as normal and if this happens one more time take it in and look where you suggest.

Pretty damn sure the battery was replaced under a year ago so I'm going to believe the higher voltmeter measurement I got and put a solenoid fault up the list and the batter down the list.

Thanks!