Child Visa Application

[Deano1000]

I am in the process of compiling a bundle of supporting documentation for my wife's daughter's visa application. My wife came to the UK on 1 May 2015 and we are going to make her daughter's application with Visa4UK within the next few weeks.

I have seen it written before that an invitation from a local school in the UK is an excellent addition to a bundle.

However, having perused my local County Council's website regarding what are called 'In Year' applications, it states;

You must also provide a copy of the parent and child's passports and visas before we can offer a school place.

This poses an obvious dilemma. She does not have the visa yet. The invitation is part of supporting the visa application.

Has anyone experienced this or can anyone provide some advice?

Much appreciated in advance.

[theoldgit]

I'm assuming you're talking about a settlement visa?

I wouldn't have thought that evidence of a school place would be that important as, by law, they must go to school.

Evidenced reasons for your wife's daughter needing to come to the UK now, rather than with her mother when she originally came would, in my view, be far more important.

[7by7]

Indeed; I have never heard of such evidence being required or even advisable; neither have I ever heard of a child settlement application being refused due to lack of it.

We had no such evidence when my step daughter applied; although obviously I had researched a school place for her. In fact, my LEA told me that we could not secure a school place for her until she had arrived in the UK.

As theoldgit says, together with the financial and accommodation requirements, the most important issue with a child settlement application is sole responsibility.

Obviously, the longer sponsoring parent and child have been separated, the more difficult this may to show.

[bobrussell]

We did not need to provide this information but contacted the school directly. There was a long delay in processing the settlement visa (not for any obvious reason we could find)! They reserved a place semi-formally. Our daughter had a place and seat in the classroom waiting for her. Everyone knew she was coming and they even did some Thai history and geography plus had translation software installed ready!

On her first day they had signs to the important places (loo etc) in Thai!

Passports and visas were requested on the day of arrival.

It is not a school with a lot of immigrant children so there was a novelty value. A wonderful start to her school life. Sadly she is now a typical western teenager!!

Although the council are responsible, the schools can have a lot of control (may vary from area to area). Well worth talking to them directly in case they are willing to liaise directly with the council.

[Deano1000]

Thanks for your responses gentleman.

I am aware it is not a requirement for the visa application, but we all know that every little bit helps.

My wife’s visa bundle, if I don’t mind saying so myself, was excellently presented. It took us 8 days from her meeting with VFS to get the visa granted. I just want to make a good impression again.

As for ‘sole responsibility’ I am fully aware with the requirements and case law surrounding this issue. My wife’s daughter’s application will be being made 10 months after my wife’s application (January 2015) for the not uncommon (and sensible) reason that my wife wanted to ensure she could adapt to UK life before having her daughter join us.

I have emailed my local junior school to see what they say.

[husseinfatal]

Hey Deano,

Best of luck with your application...going through the same thing myself!

My wife came over March last year, and she left 2 kids in boarding school being looked after by her aunt (friend of family really). She thought it best for them to stay in Thailand and finish education (11 & 14 aged), and then maybe get a visa for them when they are older to go to university in UK. We noted this on the previous spouse application, and actually meant it to be honest, but this change of circumstances has really forced our hand.

The relationship fell apart with this woman after a few months, so we went back to Thailand in November and moved them over to Isaan to be under the care of my wifes cousin. The kids Dad has had no part to play in their lives in many years..there has been no contact even from anyone oh his side in about 7 years.

At this point in November we decided we had to bring them over sooner rather than later, as the cousin said she cant watch them forever (she's only 26). Unfortunately i wasnt on required salary to get 2 kids over, plus we didnt have adequate accommodation.

I have now been on the required salary now for 10 months, and we moved into adequate accommodation a few months ago. Now we have been saving up for the very expensive visa fees for 2 children!

Hopefully will be applying in the next month, will look for legal advice probably though first.

We actually thought about moving back to Thailand to take care of the kids, but i have no degree so wouldn't be able to get a job.

Best of luck!

[Deano1000]

Hey Husseinfatal

Thanks for the kind support.

We will do the online application on 16th October 2015, in advance of my wife travelling to Thailand on the 18th October 2015 for 3 weeks.

Hopefully, we can choose a date for the following week for her and her daughter to visit VSF Global in Bangkok.

We are hoping that her visa application is dealt with as quick as my wife's, as that means my wife will be able to go to Bangkok and collect the visa (hopefully) and documentation whilst she is visiting Thailand.

I know we will be very nervous, just like we were for my wife's application. I am a lawyer, but I do not work in the field of immigration.

[TCA]

We are hoping that her visa application is dealt with as quick as my wife's, as that means my wife will be able to go to Bangkok and collect the visa (hopefully) and documentation whilst she is visiting Thailand.

Not sure how busy it is at this time of year. Here's the latest processing times below in case you haven't seen them:

https://visa-processingtimes.homeoffice.gov.uk/y/bangkok-thailand/settlement-visas/settlement

[Deano1000]

We are hoping that her visa application is dealt with as quick as my wife's, as that means my wife will be able to go to Bangkok and collect the visa (hopefully) and documentation whilst she is visiting Thailand.

Not sure how busy it is at this time of year. Here's the latest processing times below in case you haven't seen them:

https://visa-processingtimes.homeoffice.gov.uk/y/bangkok-thailand/settlement-visas/settlement

Thanks TCA. If my wife's daughter's visa application is not processed within the 3 weeks my wife is visiting Thailand, my wife's brother will be able to collect the documentation when the decision is made.

[bobrussell]

Just be aware that your daughter may be interviewed (generally by telephone) as part of the application process. It is important that everyones stories match up! There have been situations discussed here, where a child has become confused by questions asked and these answers have resulted in refusals.

I am not suggesting coaching the child but make sure (as long as she is old enough) that she understands the situation as fully as possible. If she is not clear about a question then she should make it clear it has not been understood.

One thread I seem to remember revolved around questions about the father's involvement and the child believed the question related to the step father! Cannot remember the full details but a bit of sensible preparation is worthwhile. Clearly a very young child would be unsuitable to question but it could still happen. If in doubt 'ask my mother 'is a sensible response!

[Deano1000]

Just be aware that your daughter may be interviewed (generally by telephone) as part of the application process. It is important that everyones stories match up! There have been situations discussed here, where a child has become confused by questions asked and these answers have resulted in refusals.

I am not suggesting coaching the child but make sure (as long as she is old enough) that she understands the situation as fully as possible. If she is not clear about a question then she should make it clear it has not been understood.

One thread I seem to remember revolved around questions about the father's involvement and the child believed the question related to the step father! Cannot remember the full details but a bit of sensible preparation is worthwhile. Clearly a very young child would be unsuitable to question but it could still happen. If in doubt 'ask my mother 'is a sensible response!

Thanks Bobrussell. She is 9-years old, so maybe she will not be interviewed. My wife’s letter of support gives an extremely comprehensive chronology of her marriage to her daughter’s father, his unsavoury conduct during the marriage, and their separation when the child was only 3 years old.

My wife’s brother has also provided a letter of support, because my wife and her daughter moved to live with him and his family after the separation. My wife’s brother has had de facto responsibility for ensuring that his niece is fed, clothed, and sent to school, and he is prepared to house and feed her for approximately a further 6 months; he cannot keep her indefinitely. His wife has now had their third child, so housing is slightly crowded. I am hoping this will add to the ECO accepting that my wife’s daughter needs to be with her mother in the UK.

Prior to coming to the UK, my wife also paid a local family friend money to take day-to-day care of her daughter.

My wife has been in contact very regularly via Line / Skype / WhatsApp with the family friend since her arrival in the UK in order to satisfy herself that her daughter’s day-to-day needs have been cared for, and also to provide continuing control and direction with general matters, such as her health, welfare, schooling, homework, and leisure time, etc. She has also had regular, if not daily, direct contact with her daughter.

[TCA]

My wife has been in contact very regularly via Line / Skype / WhatsApp with the family friend since her arrival in the UK in order to satisfy herself that her daughter’s day-to-day needs have been cared for, and also to provide continuing control and direction with general matters, such as her health, welfare, schooling, homework, and leisure time, etc.

Out of interest Deano (as I'll be making a step-daughter application next year), will you be supplying translated versions of Line / Skype/ WhatsApp chats for the matters you mention above? I've considered asking the child's school to send some correspondence to my wife but it seems so contrived.

[Deano1000]

My wife has been in contact very regularly via Line / Skype / WhatsApp with the family friend since her arrival in the UK in order to satisfy herself that her daughter’s day-to-day needs have been cared for, and also to provide continuing control and direction with general matters, such as her health, welfare, schooling, homework, and leisure time, etc.

Out of interest Deano (as I'll be making a step-daughter application next year), will you be supplying translated versions of Line / Skype/ WhatsApp chats for the matters you mention above? I've considered asking the child's school to send some correspondence to my wife but it seems so contrived.

My wife has been mainly talking as opposed to typing, so there is no transcript of these communications. However, she will date and time the screenshots stills of her talking to the family friend and her daughter. She has had some limited written conversations, so we will print off the Thai transcript and translate to English.

We aren’t going down the route of bringing in her daughter’s school because, as you say, it could appear contrived. Suffice it to say, my wife provides direction to her brother and family friend, so any dealings they have with the school, would be based on my wife’s instructions.

[7by7]

My wife’s brother has had de facto responsibility for ensuring that his niece is fed, clothed, and sent to school

Careful how you word this!

You must ensure that the ECO understands that your wife's brother has had no input at all over important decisions such as schooling and has been following his sister's instructions on such matters.

Don't forget to send evidence of all monies sent by you and/or your wife to contribute towards the child's upkeep.

[Deano1000]

My wife’s brother has had de facto responsibility for ensuring that his niece is fed, clothed, and sent to school

Careful how you word this!

You must ensure that the ECO understands that your wife's brother has had no input at all over important decisions such as schooling and has been following his sister's instructions on such matters.

Don't forget to send evidence of all monies sent by you and/or your wife to contribute towards the child's upkeep.

Thanks 7by7. I will be careful, hence my use of the phrase 'de facto', which I took from case law.

My wife will stress that she provides direction to her brother. In fact, her brother is busy running a successful engineering company, so it is his wife and family friend who take care of my wife's daughter's general day-to-day needs.

The only thing that concerns me is that we have not needed to send money to my wife's brother/ family friend because my wife gave money (cash) to the family friend to take care of her daughter's needs. I am aware from reading the case law that, in housing and feeding his niece, my wife's brother is not deemed as sharing responsibility. The money my wife gave to the family friend was for all her daughter's needs, save for daily sustenance.

[TCA]

My wife has been mainly talking as opposed to typing, so there is no transcript of these communications. However, she will date and time the screenshots stills of her talking to the family friend and her daughter. She has had some limited written conversations, so we will print off the Thai transcript and translate to English.

We aren’t going down the route of bringing in her daughter’s school because, as you say, it could appear contrived. Suffice it to say, my wife provides direction to her brother and family friend, so any dealings they have with the school, would be based on my wife’s instructions.

My wife will stress that she provides direction to her brother. In fact, her brother is busy running a successful engineering company, so it is his wife and family friend who take care of my wife's daughter's general day-to-day needs.

The only thing that concerns me is that we have not needed to send money to my wife's brother/ family friend because my wife gave money (cash) to the family friend to take care of her daughter's needs. I am aware from reading the case law that, in housing and feeding his niece, my wife's brother is not deemed as sharing responsibility. The money my wife gave to the family friend was for all her daughter's needs, save for daily sustenance.

I find the whole "sole responsibility" thing a bit of a nightmare. As you said, if a family member is entrusted with looking after a child, then an absent parent would mostly talk with that person about his/her child's health and well-being, schooling etc... How such things can actually be proved (or disproved) I have no idea.

[Deano1000]

My wife has been mainly talking as opposed to typing, so there is no transcript of these communications. However, she will date and time the screenshots stills of her talking to the family friend and her daughter. She has had some limited written conversations, so we will print off the Thai transcript and translate to English.

We aren’t going down the route of bringing in her daughter’s school because, as you say, it could appear contrived. Suffice it to say, my wife provides direction to her brother and family friend, so any dealings they have with the school, would be based on my wife’s instructions.

My wife will stress that she provides direction to her brother. In fact, her brother is busy running a successful engineering company, so it is his wife and family friend who take care of my wife's daughter's general day-to-day needs.

The only thing that concerns me is that we have not needed to send money to my wife's brother/ family friend because my wife gave money (cash) to the family friend to take care of her daughter's needs. I am aware from reading the case law that, in housing and feeding his niece, my wife's brother is not deemed as sharing responsibility. The money my wife gave to the family friend was for all her daughter's needs, save for daily sustenance.

I find the whole "sole responsibility" thing a bit of a nightmare. As you said, if a family member is entrusted with looking after a child, then an absent parent would mostly talk with that person about his/her child's health and well-being, schooling etc... How such things can actually be proved (or disproved) I have no idea.

Being a lawyer (though not in the immigration field) I can tell you how frustrating it is when Parliament introduce legislation, yet have to leave it to the judiciary to define what Parliament apparently meant by any ambiguous words, sentences, sentiments, etc.

Ergo, the definition of 'sole responsibility' has been interpreted by the judiciary, and even then, I do not believe the higher court / tribunal judgments are entirely consistent.

I think the best way to proceed (in addition to as much physical evidence you can adduce) is to write a very comprehensive letter explaining in painstaking details the issue of who is simply housing and feeding the child whilst the mother is in the UK.

My wife will have only been in the UK for 5 months without her daughter, and yet I have read cases where the mother was absent for years.

The problem we have to overcome is that, when my wife told her ex-husband that she was going to settle in the UK with me and that she wanted her daughter to join us, he became indignant and, due to the control he perceived he possessed as a result of a past joint custody order, he stated that he would oppose her leaving Thailand to settle in the UK.

Due to his reaction, my wife and I assumed (what we subsequently discovered to be incorrectly) that we had no other option but for her daughter to go and live with him whilst my wife settled in the UK, as was advised by her in her own visa application. This was ignorance on our part.

Her family was extremely opposed to this, due to the threats his now wife had made in the past (long story, but explained in my wife's letter supporting her daughter's visa application).

My wife's daughter also became very upset and told her she did not want to live with her father. She wanted to move to the UK to be with her mother.

However, when it subsequently became apparent that my wife was genuinely immigrating to the UK, and that he therefore was actually going to have to look after his daughter full-time, he changed his mind and removed his objection. We can only assume his initial objection had been driven solely by pride.

Therefore, my wife asked him if he would confirm in writing that he had no interest in his daughter. He has done this, in addition to attending the local registry office so that my wife could obtain a Por Khor 14.

He has abdicated what arguably little residual responsibility he had as a result of the Custody Order, and in any event, has been otherwise totally uninvolved in his daughter's upbringing.

[bobrussell]

The way an ECO interprets circumstances is often very different to that of an appeal judge. Sadly I suspect an ECO is likely to use any evidence of others taking any form of daily responsibility, as a reason for rejection.

It is really important to provide very robust reasons why a parent demonstrates sole parental responsibility. Arguments regarding legal definitions or what legislation should mean will cut little ice with an ECO or ECM. The rate of successful appeals has always been high, suggesting the ECO's get it wrong quite often!

The system should be designed to get it right first time everytime. The best I can see is it gets things right most of the time and shows little interest in doing better.

If in doubt (even if legally qualified) my advice is to take advice from an immigration solicitor as it is easier to get the right result first time rather than going through the appeal process.

[Deano1000]

Sadly I suspect an ECO is likely to use any evidence of others taking any form of daily responsibility, as a reason for rejection.

Bobrussell, I assume you do not interpret family members housing and feeding a child as having 'daily responsibility' in the sense this could defeat a claim of 'sole responsibility', as who else would take care of a child whilst his/her mother is in the UK?

[7by7]

The ECO will obviously know that if mother and child are separated then someone else will have been seeing to the day to day needs of the child. That alone would not be grounds for a refusal.

From SET7.8 What is sole responsibility?

The following factors should be considered in assessing sole responsibility:
•Are the parents married / in a civil partnership?
•If the parents’ marriage / civil partnership is dissolved, which parent was awarded legal custody, which includes assumption of responsibility for the child?
•Where there is a custody order the ECO should take care to ensure that the issue of a settlement entry clearance to the child will not contravene the terms of the custody order. See list for countries whose custody orders can be recognised as valid in UK (copy is available on this guidance page).
•Does the marriage / civil partnership subsist, but the parents do not live together?
•If the sponsoring parent migrated to the UK, how long has the sponsoring parent been separated from the child?
•If the sponsoring parent migrated to the UK, what were the arrangements for the care of the child before and after the sponsoring parent migrated?
•If the sponsoring parent migrated to the UK, what has been / what is the sponsoring parent’s relationship with the child?
•Has the sponsoring parent consistently supported the child, either by:direct personal care; or by regular and substantial financial remittances?
•By whom, and in what proportions, is the cost of the child’s maintenance borne?
•Who takes the important decisions about the child’s upbringing, for example where the child lives, the choice of school, religious practice etc?

[bobrussell]

A number of posters over the years have found the sole responsibility element a potential minefield. It appears much more straight forward where a child's application is made at the same time as the parent.

Obviously we are likely to get a biased sample of applicants on ThaiVisa - generally those that are confused, struggling or have fallen foul of the system!

Young teenagers have been questioned over the phone but I would doubt a nine year old would be. However the way the system works it cannot be ruled out completely just because sensible people would consider it inappropriate!

[Deano1000]

Thanks again guys. I really do believe we can overcome the sole responsibility issue. I will ensure that my letter, my wife's letter, her brother's letter, her ex-husband's letter, and the temporary carer's letter cover everything in detail.

[TCA]

Thanks again guys. I really do believe we can overcome the sole responsibility issue. I will ensure that my letter, my wife's letter, her brother's letter, her ex-husband's letter, and the temporary carer's letter cover everything in detail.

I presume you're working on the basis that too much information is better than not enough? I've yet to start on my wife's daughter's application but am wary of overloading the ECO with information given their limited time to process each application. Especially letter-type stuff which could just be overlooked by the ECO or construed as people writing anything they want. That's just my interpretation of their interpretation though! Having said that, I hadn't thought of including a letter from the carer/guardian. That might be a good idea and possibly avoid a phone call, which would no doubt be a potential banana skin, in my case anyway.

[Deano1000]

TCA, I believe that it is necessary to make everything clear, because if not, the ECO's default position may be to err negatively on the side of caution. I imagine myself being an ECO and asking whether or not this and that, etc. have been explained clearly enough.

[7by7]

Thanks again guys. I really do believe we can overcome the sole responsibility issue. I will ensure that my letter, my wife's letter, her brother's letter, her ex-husband's letter, and the temporary carer's letter cover everything in detail.

(7by7 emphasis)

I would advise against any input from the child's father at all; especially anything which could be construed as him agreeing to his daughter migrating to the UK..

Otherwise the ECO could get the impression that he has been sharing parental responsibility with your wife.

[Deano1000]

Thanks again guys. I really do believe we can overcome the sole responsibility issue. I will ensure that my letter, my wife's letter, her brother's letter, her ex-husband's letter, and the temporary carer's letter cover everything in detail.

(7by7 emphasis)

I would advise against any input from the child's father at all; especially anything which could be construed as him agreeing to his daughter migrating to the UK..

Otherwise the ECO could get the impression that he has been sharing parental responsibility with your wife.

7by7, so would you simply limit it to including the Por Khor 14? He has attended the Registry Office to assist in the obtaining of this.

[7by7]

Your wife basically needs to show that he has had no input into the child's upbringing since before she moved to the UK; ideally since they separated.

Hopefully the PK 14 will show this.

BTW, the ECOs in Bangkok do not accept a PK 14 on it's own as evidence of sole responsibility; but combined with other evidence, as previously suggested to you, it can be very useful and even swing the balance if there is any doubt.

So it's definitely worth including it.

[TCA]

7by7, so would you simply limit it to including the Por Khor 14? He has attended the Registry Office to assist in the obtaining of this.

As father of the child he would be named on the PK14 anyway, but if he's also noted on the document as being present at the amphur as a witness, I'm not sure if that would help or hinder your application in any way.

[Deano1000]

He has not exercised any control or direction over his daughter's life since he decided to leave my wife and her daughter. The Por Khor 14 will be invaluable, and fortunately, the UK does not recognise Thai Custody Orders. My wife's brother will also confirm that my wife and her daughter have lived with him for the past 5 years, or so, and even though he has provided shelter, my wife directs and controls her daughter's life.

[Deano1000]

7by7, so would you simply limit it to including the Por Khor 14? He has attended the Registry Office to assist in the obtaining of this.

As father of the child he would be named on the PK14 anyway, but if he's also noted on the document as being present at the amphur as a witness, I'm not sure if that would help or hinder your application in any way.

He was present at the Amphur, along with my wife's brother, who witnessed him abdicating any residual liability which the Custody Order may have granted him. We have made it clear in our supporting documentation that he has not had any direction or control over his daughter's affairs.